I am 100% responsible for my A. My H was 100% responsible for his A.

However, we were both equally responsible (50/50) for the problems in our M. It takes two people to make a M work, and neither one of us were showing up and putting in the work necessary to make that happen.

Wow! Thank you all for offering your insights. I didn't expect this many people to chime in. I am heading to church right now. I will write more when I get home.

I think this concept of reconciling some contribution to the pre-A issues and the relationship to the cheater's decison to bang someone else is difficult for many BSs.
First, one is in a very traumatized state and, for some reason, their is a strong temptation to find a cause and effect deal between our deficiencies and the glaring one's evidenced by the WS.
I have read that a BS feels safer if he or she can establish some type of rleationship between the Pre-A issues and the cheating, as it does give a sense of control.
It really helped me to get to the point of placing all responsibility for the cheating on my XWW when I realized that one does not have to be perfect to expect fidelity.
Not one person that I know of hads not made mistakes in their marriage or needed improvement in some areas. But, our vows didnot provied for dispensing with fidelity in the evnet whe found our spouses lacking in some regard.
It is the height of arrogance for a WS to try to justify cheating by pointing out these deficienceis or imperfections. as doing so displays the WS's lack of insight into his or her own deficiencies and the problems he or she caused.

Zelmo....I agree that this is the case in some marriages, and definitely in my marriage.

I TOTALLY agree with this is all cases.

I hear what you all are saying. And I agree with a lot of it. Certainly, I didn�t do everything right. I misunderstood a lot of his ENs and threw myself into meeting them in ways that I *thought* would be meaningful, when in fact they were not. I had a chip on my shoulder about some of his requests, which led to a rebellious attitude and some LBs. (We didn�t understand the concept of mutual enthusiasm at the time.) I had some passive aggressive tendencies rather than being assertive and living in OH. So, yes, there were many things that I did wrong pre-A. However, I was striving to meet an EN that one of my dearly loved posters (starfish) pointed out �tipped the scales into obsession.� I was not asked to meet a legitimate EN, but rather a fantasy. And the truth is that no one can compete with fantasy. No one can fulfill fantasy.

I may have some mud flung my way for this, and I�m prepared to take it, but my H�s requests pre-A were not legitimate ENs. He was battling lust, and he wanted me to take responsibility for solving HIS lust problem under the guise of meeting his need for an AS. To him, this meant that my eating healthy foods, exercising regularly and maintaining my married weight was no longer good enough to satisfy his need for AS. The bar was raised significantly. IMO, this is not a legitimate need, and my anger about his request that I live up to fantasy stemmed from that fact. Mind you, he was not willing to discuss finding a solution that we were both enthusiastic about. It was his way or the highway. My feelings/thoughts about it were completely dismissed. Looking back I can see how much he tore me down with rude comments and criticisms. I made excuses for him, and was blinded by love and the repeated lies he told me: we are ok, we�ll get through this, don�t worry about it, we don�t need help, I love you. The truth was just the opposite, he was growing resentful, he was NOT happy. I was naive.

I hope that I�m not blinded by arrogance, but as I see it, I can�t claim an equal part of the state of our M. I was here on the EN forums working to understand the concepts, I was trying to apply them, I was reading other books, suggested counseling, even sacrificing of myself � against the Harleys� advice � to try to please him. I think I actually accepted responsibility for curing him of his lust. How absurd! So, while I can look back and see MANY things that I did wrong in our M, I can�t say that we have 50/50 in the contribution of the state of the M that led to the A. And perhaps that is why I am so bothered by the fact that my H can fall back on the SAA �I was unhappy because of unmet needs and so I fell into the A.� His unmet EN was for an AS, that�s it. I WAS and AM an AS. I did and do a LOT to meet this need. What he wanted me to do was be MORE attractive than I was at marriage. How many of us can do that without surgery, starvation, or some aging tonic?
Maybe all that detail was unnecessary. I apologize for the rant. I guess what I�m saying is:

I do not believe that both partners always responsible for 50% of the pre-A conditions. A relationship takes 2, and no one is ever completely innocent when there is conflict. However, I think it very possible for one person to be working his/her tail off while the other eats it all up and complains that there isn�t more. That, to me is not 50-50.
I�ve spent too many years owning things that aren�t mine. I�ve spent too many years putting his needs above my own. I�ve spent too many years tolerating LBs. Today, I don�t. I�ve gotten a lot of phenomenal counseling to address my codependency, marital boundaries, assertiveness, etc. I�ve worked hard to understand the principles in SAA, and we�ve made a ton of headway here. I just don�t want my H to be able to say that my failure to be more attractive than I was at marriage led to his unhappiness that led to the A. It feels like backsliding for me and blameshifting for him. Could be wrong�will be talking to my IC about this.

I hear many of you saying that it is useless to try to determine fault. I can see why you would think that. If the goal is to move forward and do the right things to maintain a happy, safe marriage, then what good does it do? For me, it feels important because I do not want to live a single day more with a man who cannot see how cruel he was, how there was just NOTHING right about the put downs, or even the request in the first place. I can�t see how any of it was ok. None of it. And when he says: well I was unhappy due to unmet ENs�it is like saying: I was justified in my requests. It was fair for me to make SDs and expect you to jump to. Since you didn�t, I choose someone else. I am not willing to carry that weight for the rest of my life. KWIM?

I know what you mean wonderin.

I've heard it said on this board recently, and I know it to be true in my marriage, that sometimes you need a third party to point this stuff out to your husband for him to believe it, or accept it.

Wonderin, sounds like you have an excellent hndle on what was going on and your lck of responsibility for issues that were entiely within your WH.
It is very importwnt to examine cliche's and stereotypes, like the 50-50- contribution deal. Like most stereotypes, they lack analysis ans specificity. The roll off the ongue and sound sort of good. But, they seldom stand up to scrutiny.
I think a better way of looking at the pre-A issues in my marriage to a NPD/BPD wife, is not to look at how i may have played a role in her having these crazy issues. They were already ther.
My role was that I was too enthralled by her physical beauty and by fear of her fury to do what I shuld have done upon the first signs of abuse: dump her [censored].
So, I played a role. I chose this loser and tolerated her abuse way too long.
Sounds like your WH is an abuser, as well.

And that is a hard pill to swallow at first.

I know, BTDT.

I try not to beat myself up too much for that though, and I hope Wonderin doesn't either. The abuse can be subtle, playing on your innocence or naivete. Some abusers do an excellent job of having you believe you are the problem....until you learn differently.

I sometimes wonder if the abusers always know that they are abusive? I don't think they do. I think it takes the bottom falling out of their lives before, and if, they ever do any introspection in how they were abusive. And even if some realize it, they don't always come out of denial and accept it, much less make amends for it.

I am of the belief that this was a self esteem problem in your husband. I believe he needed you to be more, to improve the way he felt about himself. I don't knock the need for an attractive spouse at all, but he if required you do more than what is possible for you, there is a problem within himself.

You are definitely on the right track Wonderin. I think your husband needs counseling, but I wouldn't recommend an IC. I would recommend a MC who is pro-marriage, understands IMAGO therapy, preferrably someone with MB knowledge as well.

Yes, Mopey, I believe you are right. He has no interest in hearing my interpretations of things. He says...the way you tell it, I was an abusive a**. I say: call it what you will, it doesn't matter to me. I only want you to admit that it happened often and it was harmful to me persoanlly and to our M. I would *love* it if he looked at the WHY behind it, but short of someone else pushing for that, I don't think it will happen. My efforts to talk about it are LB, so yes, it needs to come from a 3rd party whom he respects.

Zelmo and Mopey -

I appreicate your words. Sometimes I feel crazy, and it is nice to know if someone other than my H agrees. If I'm off, I'd really like to know so that I can examine my thinking and get back on track.

As for the idea of abuse, were either of you in a similar situation? How do you know if it was abuse or not? Can abuse be unintentional?

My H won't agree that he even unintentionally beat me down. This really bothers me, because again, it makes me question my sanity. I start to wonder...well, maybe I am wrong. Maybe I don't remember it correctly, maybe I am off, etc. And I feel plain crazy, because what he says doesn't line up with what I remember or feel. It makes me mad when someone tries to tell you that your reality is actually fantasy. That is what my H did during the A, and I bought it, so doing it now triggers those old feelings.

Thank you for suggesting that I'm on the right track. I feel more sane hearing that. I can't wait to get into our MC to discuss this as it is on my mind all the time lately. We have a new MC that my H really respects, and I have hope that she will be able to reach him. We do a rotation, MC, him alone, me alone, MC and so on.

What is IMAGO?

Mopey, I understood from others on this board that finding an Imago therapist, because there weren't any MB therapists in the list on the site in my area, would be close enough. Because my H wasn't enthusiastic at that time about phone counseling. I was *very* mistaken. Imago was great at the EN-filling stuff. But it doesn't get to the core of eliminating LBs, it instead asks us to accept our spouse's shortcomings. I was left with a spouse that I care for and feel close to, in other works my "love bank inventory" reads as full, but have no wish to remain married to him, because the persistent LBs remain part of the package. I think this may be Wonderin's issue, too, the persistent DJ LB. Even when you spend the 15 hours, and your ENs are met, the persistent expectation from your spouse that you need to adapt their thoughts as your own or *you're just not good enough* is hard to swallow. I think Wondering would be much better served getting her MC on board with the MB program.

Same here, which is quite annoying to me. I feel disrepected when my thoughts and feelings are not considered on subjects. It also kills me when I can suggest something, it's shot down by my husband, but if a counselor sees and suggest the same thing....well then that's a different story. I would love to hear just one time..."Mopey, maybe you were right about that". But, I bite my tongue and am just glad he heard it from someone else.

My webster's compact dictionary describes abuse as "use or treat wrongly", and "insult". If you google Webster's dictionary, it has other definitions such as "language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily". A synonym of abuse is "obloquy", which suggests defamation and consequent shame and disgrace.


I was abused in different ways. The worst abuse I felt was the gaslighting. My husband use to tell me I was paranoid, jealous, crazy, etc when I felt something wasn't right. Meanwhile, I find out 13 years into our marriage that he was unfaithful to me 7 times that I know of since we met. So, I felt bad about myself all those years, while he lied to me, while I was thinking I was just paranoid, etc. I have a hard time trusting my own judgement these days, and that has probably hurt me worse than anything.

Lying to someone is abusive.

I was also in the same boat as you regarding my husband's unhealthy addiction to lust. He would check out other women in front of me. One time he even pointed out a women's rack to my son in front of me. I find that disrepectful and emotionally abusive. He doesn't do this in front of me now, and I have no way of knowing if he does it when he's not with me. I do know that lust has been a battle for him.

HIS counselor even went to go so far as to say he sexually abused me. My husband never raped me, or was violent sexually. I think she came to that conclusion based on some stuff I told her about him wanting me to pose for him and act out his fantasies. In my opinion, we didn't make love, we had sex. Big difference.

Not that just sex is not ok, but IMO, that's all it ever was. This paragraph could be argued by some as being a healthy thing, in some situations it probably is. It just wasn't for us. I use to undress in my closet because I couldn't compare to the porn skanks he was looking at. I was so messed up by all of this, because I just didn't understand what was happening. I just knew it didn't feel right. I never did dive into the sexual abuse accusation with her due to other reasons.



I'm not sure Wonderin. I think sometimes we can be abusive without thinking about it. I believe my husband projects negative thoughts about me, by comparing me to his father AND mother, and therefore treats me unfairly in his judgements. I don't even think he realizes it most of the time. It is only now that our MC is pointing this out to him. Meaning....he'll treat me negatively based on how his parents treated him, even before I even have a reaction to something.



I painfully understand this all too well. In some instances, this has gotten better for us, in other instances I'm still in the same boat as you. It is maddening to say the least. All I can do is talk to other people, talk to God, and learn how to validate myself. I use to wish I had a tape recorder going all the time just to play it back and prove that he really did say something he claimed he didn't say. I just never did.



This is good. Please make sure you and her understand each other before something is brought up to your husband.



One of Webster's definitions.....

"an idealized mental image of another person or the self".

From my understanding....this is therapy that goes back to your upbringing as a child, and how it shapes your life today. I DO NOT believe that your upbringing gives anyone an excuse to behave badly. I only find it helpful to understand where the behaviors came from.

It has been suggested on this site that looking back into childhood is not necessary to correct your marriage today. And I agree. Behavior changes can change instantly with our choice to do so. However, for some people who think they are behaving in a healthy way, when they're really not, may see differently when this stuff is pointed out to them.

Like me for instance.....I probably have a larger fear than some when it comes to abandonment and being alone than other people, because that's what my childhood felt like to me. It just helps me to understand my reactions better, whether they're healthy or not, and also understand my husband's reactions better, whether they are healthy or not.

It quite interesting because it shows you why you picked the partner you did. It is useful knowledge imo.

N.E.D.....

Thank you for pointing this out.....




Honestly, I haven't been this far into the therapy. So maybe I should not have recomended this to Wonderin. I just know that what I've learned so far has been helpful. I am anxious to learn more about this now that you have pointed it out.

And this very thing about "accepting our spouse's shortcomings" has always been a kicker for me when I think about MB vs the Bible. However, that is something I cannot dive into right now, simply due to time.

Wonderin, virtually anyone that is in a relationship with an abuser, particyularly a NPD or BPD, will question whther the problem was within him/herslf.
Read up on the personality disorders. See what others have been through. The very facct that you question whether it was you that was the problem is a pretty good indication that you were not. NPD's and BPDs almost never look within.
These folks are masters at projection, isolation, and deflection. If you argue with one, you are often put on the defensive right away and, before you know it, the topic has changed, entirely and the focus is on some deficienciy with you.
Generally, you will find that in a relationship with the disordered, it is ALWAYS your fault. Now, what are the odds of that being true?
Many in these relationships have never recieved an apology form their disordred spouse during the entire relationship. Now, how likely is it that any normal person will never make a mistake, never be at fault? But, these fols never take responsibility.
Any sane person would tell you that a spouse expecting you to maintain your youth or revise your body has issues with himself.

Every FWS on this board can attest that this is the dumbest quote ever printed on these forums. And I daresay a good example of evidence that you are incapable of truly understanding MB concepts, which may or may not be a facet of why you are no longer married Zelmo. (admittedly I do not know your story - your FWW's may have been the embodiment of "absolute evil", but ... I doubt it)

Here's a hint. The A was 100% your wayward spouses responsibility. And, provided it's over... IT'S OVER. Now fix the marriage, not the affair. And yes, YOU CREATE problems in the marriage also. Maybe 50%, maybe not - it's a subjective argument, and as such isn't worth having. So fix what you know, not the "maybe" problems.

I think you misuderstand what I was trying to say, Skald. It is very common for a partner in a relationship with a disordered spouse to question whether he or she is the cause of all the problems. This is because the BPD or NPD is a master at deflecting and turning things around on one. It had nothing to do with infidleity.
If you read up on the expierience of people who have been in these situations, you will see that a high % come out wondering if it was entirely his or her fault.

I ta.ke no issue with having creatred some problems in the marriage. I merely questioned the blanket 50/50 cliche.
And, I agree, you know nothing about my marriage. I also tend to doubt that you have standing to speak for all FWSs. Were you elected president?

Hmmm...to me that is subjective. Who's to say that when the WS tells of what they need from the BS that they aren't getting is not correct???...That would be a DJ in MB speak. I can tell you that absolutely, without a doubt that H wasn't bringing in much to the marriage, but then again so could he. And he would be RIGHT!!!!...not because I wasn't, but because I was doing what *I* thought was necessary, but not what he needed.

Too many people like to write off the waywards, because of what they have done. Not a fair assessment. Nor will it help in any sort of Recovery efforts.

Listen Z, there are MANY family members, friends, and neighbors that would tell you I was a good wife and mother (and I was....). They would tell you I brought way more to the marriage than H. But in REALITY, not in the ways that H needed. Who are they to tell my H what his EN'S are???....

ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY was I dissatisfied. I have never kept that secret. In fact, in my Plan A thread, there were many times I doubted what I was doing because my OWN EN'S had been unmet for so long.

There are many reasons why I didn't cheat. Good boundaries. Call it what you want, but I have this inner voice, inner bell, something, that when I interact with a male, if things are not on the up-n-up, it goes off. Also, a lack of oppertunity. To be honest, it wasn't there. As a child, my mother took me around her AP. I KNEW the damages that A's create. Maybe some sub-conscious thing kept me from doing it. Also, my sister had just come out of her own affair. It wasn't a pretty sight.

The thing is, I know that I could have found myself in one GIVEN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. When I first read that in SAA, I knew without a shadow of a doubt, I could. And maybe THAT right there is recognizing my OWN limitations.....to keep myself out of temptations way....

Look, I am not saying that any BS is to blame for an affair. Not matter if they were not meeting EN'S, engaging in LB's, there are ALWAYS different choices to an affair. And that is what the WS own.....

not2fun