Does it really matter what LABEL is put on the behavior? If you are lying in a hospital and have been run over, does it matter what color the bus was?

Part of the healing process is to recognize the behavior you did not recognize initially. I believe I heard one definition of insanity to be "to continue to do the same thing and expect different results". I think it is necessary to recognize what it was we missed. Was there something WE or I should have done differently, and in what circumstance. If there is a deficiency in our "picker" where is it deficient? In order to do that it seems logical to rewind the tape, recognize the behavior, and learn not to get involved in a situation like that again. Or to educate yourself on how to live and provide for a BPD's needs (they are different and some have learned to live with them by recognizing the behaviors and employing management strategies to assist the crisis to pass). It requires a different set of tools.

I agree with your observation that the behavior is immature and self centered. The question still remains about what to do about it.

My perception is that Zelmo is not blaming everything on his BPD wife. I see him trying to identify the abnormal behavior, recognize the behavior is abnormal, accept what has happened, realize he in not to blame in that instance, and try to keep moving forward. By the time a BPD has finished with you your self esteem has taken a significant hit. I can see where Zelmo is looking for feedback and provides feedback in an attempt to establish a guideline for what normal is.

In all due respect Mr W. I submit that your wife does not have BPD. As suggested she has shown remorse and has been willing to work at recovery. This is not typical BPD behavior, at least the way I understand it. I think you are very fortunate that you have been able to recover your marriage and I think it is encouraging to hear about examples like yours, that there is hope.


The Non PD still has to deal with the aftermath, whether married or not. The fall out is significant. The erosion of self esteem, the feelings of guilt and inadequacy for not recognizing what the root issue was, the impact it had on ones children. I still loved my wife. I think her feelings and behaviors got increasingly erratic as she reached menopause. I had no choice in what she did. However I have to learn how to heal and recover from the breakdown of my marriage. My upbringing taught me that you marry for life, and getting over the failure of my marriage is a big deal. I guess that is partly why I look for answers. I still beat myself up wondering if there was something else I could have done.

I owe a debt of gratitude for the many posters here that helped me through my darkest hours. Perhaps that is why I still haunt these boards, as there is understanding and support in the club that nobody wants to be a member of.

Depending on the your nature, and I tend to be logical and analytical, I like to understand. WHAT HAPPENED? If I understand then I can help myself and also help my children. This is the most devastating thing I have ever encountered. There are days I wonder if I will ever get over it. I just have to have faith that time will heal. I still seek and search diligently for path to recovery.

If anyone has any magical solutions I am all ears.

It would be if I didn't get the feeling it was meant to poke fun at Zelmo, maybe even in a mean spirited kind of way.

If so, it's a great example of immaturity.

Mopey, Mrs W and I get along fine. She is alright by me and does not take cheap shots. So, I assume she was just acting as a cheerleader for her H, which is good.
But, as BC points out, I think Mr W misses the point of looking into PD, regardless of the label one wants to apply. Call them malignantly immature, whatever.
See, much as Mr W likes to take the position that one who has not rcovered is not best equipped to advise(not true, neccessarily, IMO), it could be pointed out that he was not dealing with a PD spouse.
I have learned so much by looking into this.If I'd had accesss to the internet and the guidance I got from therapy and my lawyer in my first divorce, I doubt I would have married a similar woman the second time. I wrongly assumed that all the problems in my first marriage were due to me , despite my XW's serial cheating and the support I received from her sister.
I am not really interested in blaming someone.But, I will not run from the truth. I have described but a bit of the bizzare behaviors and they are manifestations of much more than immaturity.
I give new BSs more credit than Mr W in terms of their ability to discern what applies to their spouse. I consistently advise them to look both at the pre_A behavior, and the duration of the abusive post discovery behavior.
While it may be true that some WS temporarily display PD type behaviors(not sure, as the "fog" concept may just be a smokescreen for what they are really like), we do see examples of folks that despite witnessing the devesatation, and despite exposure etc continue to abuse for quite a long time, months or years.
These folks are PD, IMO.

Well, I hope you have a nice F, then.

Well, Mr W, no , I do not think someone could fool me again. That is why I researched this stuff this time around.
And, yes, I dothink I got hit by the bankruptcy wheel twice. Definitely need to look into that vulnerablity, as I have done.
As for the why being relevant, I disagree. I feel it is good to know this stuff and to be able to point this stuff out to others hwo have gone through it. BC and some other folks ahve been a big help to me. Fred comes to mind, as well.
People that have been with a PD partner are really injured and need help. So, knowing this stuff has relevance in the regard, IMO.

I went to a meeting tonight. The topic was the Sixth Step ("[We] were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character"). For me, it was quite the powerful meeting.

The reason I say this is because my processing of the A and the events leading up to it and after have brought me to this point.

I have a firm understanding/belief of my WW's condition. That only serves to give me some solace, but not resolution. Knowing that she has a disorder does not absolve her of her actions (or the consequences of them), but it also does nothing to change the situation.

And as we all know, we cannot change other people. We can only change ourselves. I have reached the point in my processing that has me looking at myself, my "defects of character" (the immaturity and weaknesses that made me susceptible to WW's disorder) and wanting to be free of them.

This I cannot do alone. But the marvel of discovery is that I know I don't have to do it alone! I am going to seek counsel to better understand my own personality issues that enabled me to ignore the warning signs, to deny the facts that others could easily see, and that allowed me to become engulfed in her disordered viewpoint.

It's for self-preservation. My heart is often torn by the stories I read here. Knowing that I got off lightly and how terrible I felt/feel as a result, I can't imagine how awful it must be for those who have spent their entire lives (not with a BPD spouse), have children, and have watched their whole lives tumble apart.

I may get called on the carpet for this, but I now consider myself a "two-time loser." Doing nothing to change my behaviors and outlook will just set me up for strike three.

Wow...I thought you knew me better than that, Mopey... I was laughing at Mr. W - he's funny...Zelmo's funny...If they met in real life they would crack each other up...

No worries...

Mrs. W

Wise guy!

Mrs. W

I am going to admit something terrible here. For those years aftr the kids were bor and I was spiraling around between this depression, anger, and anxiety that I couldn't seem to undestand, there was one deep and selfish reason I did not want to go to a psychiatrist. I just knew in my heart of hearts (big DJ here) that if DH and I found out I DID have a problem, then he would have the excuse he needed to quit trying and lay all of our problems on me - the sick person. He would be the victim and I would be the psycho.

I offer this terrible confession as an apology. I realize now that one reason discussion of mental problems in W's and FW's is such a trigger for me. It taps ito that old secret fear - that if someone is sick, then the blame for all the world's ills lies squarely with them, and they are to be discarded as hopeless, fundamentally flawed cases. I haven't read every post I have made on this subject, but I am sure that if I did, some of the fear would be apparent.

The truth is, in our case, I was not and am not a hopeless and fundmentally flawed person. I was not and am not just an affair waiting to happen. I had character and morals during the 37 year prior to my A, and I have them now. My A was a terrible, selfish abbheration, not a defining thing that was just witing all those years to rear its ugly head. It would be simpler if it WERE that way, but it's not. And I don't think I am the only person for whom cheating WAS the exception and ot the rule.

So yes, there are waywards out there who have disorders, FOO issues, addictions, etc. And, absolutely, there are those who don't. If deciding which one a WS is can aid in personal and/or marital discovery, then I think it is worth investigating. But only if the goal is a true personal/marital recovery. If it serves as any type of deflection for either spouse, then I really think it does more harm than good.

I was recently on a thread in a Christian forum where the topic of whether a Christian woman could wear pants became very heated. Yeah, sad that pants became such a big deal. But I finall just had to say, "Ya know, God knows my heart, and he knows that I am not rebelling by wearing pants. And that is enough." I have had to do the same with regards to my disease and the affair I had almost four years ago.

I'd have stood by either of my XW's, if they sought help. The vows said "in sickness and in health". Both decided to pursue their affairs and left the marriages. Both crashed.

I tend to consider something that is an illness as either treatable, curable, or manageable in some form. In other words - not your fault and there is an instruction manual on what to do about it. Otherwise, it's just who you are. I'd rather be sick than have such character flaws as to be a natural wayward.

You're a good man, Zelmo...

Mrs. W

That is the sense I had whenever I read any of your posts Zelmo. I think one of the things that can be taken into consideration is if the spouse has a PD then the nature and the approach needs to be adapted if the marriage is to be recovered. I am no expert but from what I have read MB will not work if the person has an addiction. I am not saying MB will not work if the person has a PD, but the PD changes the approach as you are not dealing with "normal" responses.

One of the facets of many PDs (also, considering that they can be cross-disordered) is lack of empathy or remorse. The worst of the bunch diagnostically "lacks a conscience."

Thus, the disordered often see nothing wrong with their behavior. It's extremely difficult treating someone who doesn't think there's anything wrong.

It takes an intervention to get some alcoholics or addicts to realize they have a problem. A disordered person's denial is so strong that they will even lash out at attempts to get them to look at themselves. After all, nothing is wrong with them, it's all YOUR FAULT.

Fred, I have found this to be true. Thye simply truly beleive they are more entitled than the peasantry.
I've recounted this illustration before. My first wife was plenty bright enough(almost in my league ).
When confronted, rather politey, with the fact that she had spent 224 nights out until at least 1 A.M. in 1994, she was incredulous that I found that objectionable. She did not dispute the factual basis of the allegation. Her response was "Of course I am going to spend more time out than you. I have more friends than you. What is the problem?".
Once I got over the shock of hearing such a stupid , selfish response, it dawned on me : She truly beleives this. There is no sense arguing about it. She concedes the disparity but her values are so different that any points scored will not register.

You might think this because of the difficulty in describing BPD...UNTIL you meet someone who has it.

If I did not know someone who has BPD it would sound like bunk to me too. BPD is much more sinister than someone who is seriously immature, though if you just heard the person described you would probably label them as immature.

I cannot emphasize enough that unless you have actually MET and interacted fairly regularly with someone with BPD you would not understand and no amount of reading/studying it will ever even come close to be able to grasp what someone with BPD is like.

I get upset just THINKING about what my uncle (who has BPD) has done to my family. It's indescribably cruel and manipulative. To describe it as simple "immaturity" is so far off the radar/spectrum of maturity that it is indescribable.

Too true.

My step-daughter was clinically diagnosed with BPD. This was after spending a week at a mental clinic for young people.

I still have a scar on my left leg where she bit me during one of her more "emotive" moments.

Now that I know more about BPD, I can see where she gets it from.

EXACTLY. They become so out-of-control with anger at the horrible injustices they THINK they have been delivered that they do insane things. My uncle pretended that our 80 year old aunt tried to run him over because he was so out of his mind she needed to get away from him and in order to elicit sympathy (no one bought it though) he stepped in front of her car and she brushed his leg. He then called the cops (who does this to an 80 year old aunt?!?!?!)...this is a 52 year old man, BTW...and yes, it is immature but it is waaaaaaay more than that. They are truly delusional.

Amen to that. I am about the last person folks would expect to buy into this type of concept. I am pretty down to earth and a big time personal responsibility proponent.
But, the bizzare cruel stuff I witnessed and endured was beyond anything I could have imagined.
I doubt I would have bought this stuff before I met someone like this.