I can't speak for tst, obviously.

But I think there may be a tendency to think some people avoid things by the "paralysis of analysis." Why go looking for things that may not be there? Could this be an effort to avoid looking at things directly?

I certainly didn't start up by thinking, "Hmm, I wonder if my wife's sudden strange behavior and having an affair are based on her dysfunctional childhood and lack of parental influence?"

And while she exhibited many of the same wayward behaviors and said many of the same wayward words, she also differed in a number of ways. The first tip-off was her complete lack of conscience, remorse or regret. There is no way I can describe the look on her face when she told me she was leaving, or when she later admitted to the OM. It was as if someone had flipped a switch, and the woman I knew and loved was suddenly replaced by a heartless, cruel, unfeeling stranger.

Some may still say this is typical wayward behavior. And well it may be; thankfully, I have only one experience on which to gauge.

But I had to live under the same roof with her for five weeks before she moved out. And her move out was a completely heartless, soulless event. It was if I had never mattered to her at all. It was just "part of her journey," as she effortlessly put it.

There is no way to describe how this woman behaved. I have read just about every post here since I arrived, and have read some pretty awful stories and some horrendous behaviors. Yet my WW was different from them all.

I got started on my research and the information I have learned have convinced me beyond a doubt. As I said, I didn't start out looking for this, but this is what I found. I wish it were otherwise. It if were, then maybe there would be a hope of recovering my marriage.

No, not even close...I am not describing my FWH as someone who had BPD while he was wayward. BPD is something in and of itself that has nothing to do with waywards and how they act, at least not in my experience.

BPDs are VERY paranoid, BTW...that is what I was trying to describe earlier when I said that they think everyone is "out to get them". They accuse anyone within their reach of somehow trying to scr*w them over, and then become furious when these people will not admit to it/do anything to correct it. It's the very worst form of gaslighting.

Yes, they do hate therapy and do you know why? Because they cannot gaslight the therapist into believing their bullcr*p. Most therapists will eventually refuse to treat a BPD. This is the experience my family has had with this.

BTW, my uncle has had more than one clinical diagnosis of having BPD...this is not a "made-up" disorder.

Just be careful looking back:

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Freidrich Nietzsche

I've known multiple people who tried to figure out their past and try to get answers for all the "whys", but it just sent them spiraling into anger and depression. Sometimes you can't find out why. The people aren't there or are unable to give you the answers you seek - including your past self. You can't change the past. You can only make the decision to change who you are today and become the person you want to be. The only person you can control and change is yourself.

I don't disagree with your points..... but the steps do not require mental masturbation.

You know, it's more than just a little bit insane for people to be telling Zelmo and Fred that their wives are just typical waywards and do not have PDs. Zelmo and Fred LIVED WITH these women ~ no one here did. Both of these men have read and seem to understand the MB concepts and they both realize they were dealing with something different than "just" a wayward.

I both lived with a wayward and I have a family member with a PD. They are not the same. While some of the characteristics of both might overlap some, the DEGREE in which they do cannot be compared.

As if it wasn't bad enough for them to have gotten into marriages with women who have PDs, now they are having to defend themselves here. Those of you who do not know anyone with a serious PD, what right do you have to tell them they are wrong and their wives are just "typical" waywards?

I rarely get disgusted with people here on MB but this thread has truly disgusted me and I feel for both Zelmo and Fred and I have a lot of respect for them for figuring out that they needed out of situations that they cannot control. They have protected themselves and their families and should be patted on the back, not told that they are crazy for "diagnosing" their wives/exWs or that it's all a matter of perspective.

Geez.

Additionally, the condescending tone of many of the posters here has been truly disappointing...

<still shaking my head in disbelief>

Dunno MF.... They have yet to describe anything that hasn't described my own behaviors..... And I'm NOT BPD!




MF, I think everyone here has respect for these men. No one questions their decisions to kick their wayward wives to the curb.

No tst, this does not describe you.

Did you abandon 4 marriages AND your children and NEVER COME BACK???

See, the big difference here is that these women have NEVER CHANGED. These men are describing behaviors that have gone on for YEARS and have never changed. These women have never "woken up" and seen and taken responsibility for the destruction they have caused. They have not EVER shown one ounce of remorse.

If that describes you, then your posts here paint a very different picture...

I have not seen this done to newbies and I would agree with this, definitely. BPD is not very common as far as I know and I certainly would never advise a newbie to look into this as I don't see the point.

I agree with Pep. First, no one here is qualified to diagnose --especially remotely via the Internet-- another person's mental condition. I think we sometimes get a little carried away with "fogbabble" and fit everything into that slot.

When I came here I was looking for a way to recover my marriage. I had bought the book SAA and it led me here. Those of you who were with me at the beginning my remember my pain and anguish as I tried to do what I could to Plan A and then Plan B. I posted my Plan B letter here. I posted my exposure letters here. I read, and I learned.

I even resisted the idea that my wonderful, loving wife might have a personality disorder! Not her, she'd had problems growing up, for sure, but she got into A.A. and everything was going to be okay. Wasn't it?

But I had to read everyone's advice to me, and there were voices telling me, "Fred, you need to look into your wife's past. THREE failed marriages? Abandoned her kids? Irresponsible spending?" And these were behaviors that far preceded the affair.

So, even though I didn't want to, I did. I posted here about the jaw-dropping revelations I had. I wasn't happy to have them; far from it. A completely different picture of my wife emerged. And *I* was the one who had been blind to it all.

I would not play the BPD/NPD card on -any- newbie coming here. Maybe it's still so fresh to me, but I remember how jangled my nerves were. How uncertain and afraid I was. How lost and in pain I felt. To have someone just come out and say, "Hey, your wife has a personality disorder and you should just run like hell from her" would NOT be the advice I would want to hear fresh out of the chute. This IS Marriage Builders, after all.

When asked if a disorder should be considered, I'm happy to point people to the same sources I used, and let them do their own research.

First and foremost, I will attempt to point people to Marriage Builder concepts. If 2% of the population has BPD, then 98% does not.

ok, heres the final word on all this: YOU ARE ALL NUTS!!

(Another) one of my favorite sayings:

A.A. is like a universal monkey wrench: It fits every nut.

What's wrong with nuts?

MB is like a can of mixed nuts. There's something in it for everyone...

If you like nuts.

I like nuts.

I especially like almonds.

Specifically smoked almonds.



I used to have multiple personality disorder...

But we feel much better now.

Mark

Sorry! Long day...

dat works for me, Fred!

Oh wait! Was Mel supposed to have the last word?

You can have the last word, Mel.

ya know the saying, it takes one to know one!

Mel<---a nut

shaddup, Mark!