HBH,

Everyone says your H is in the "fog", but by definition I do not think he is.

The fog is what a wayward is in that is still under the spell of the endorphines and dopamines secreted by the brain because of the contact the WW still has with the OP. That is why fogbabble come out of the WW's mouth. Why they say and behave in such a stupid fashion. They are not thinking right, because they are still in the trance of the affair.

From what you have said, once the A was discovered, your boy was totally through with the bimbo and was agreeable to work on the M. I believe you even said there was no withdrawal required with the guy. So I do not think he is in any kind of fog.

This, unfortunately is how and who he is.

If I may go back to the "jock culture" theme again. The jocks see women as sport, that a man and woman get together for some hard core physical activity. It is all physical. It is exciting and dangerous too, but to the jock, it is all physical. No mental activity is required, no emotions, love, etc. Almost like going to the gym for a workout.

So now that it is over, he looks back on it like string of football games that he enjoyed.

That is why he is over it so easily, and why he can't empathize with what you are feeling. I think the only way he might "get it" is if the tables were turned and he was faced with YOU being physically with another man.

IMHO

kirk

Dr. Harley's opinion is this process begins after this length of time....

HbH,

Yes, it is obvious that your H still has quite a bit of foggy thinking!

This fogginess can and will improve as you both continue to work the MB program!

I'm stunned with Kirks suggestion that after 1 week of coaching with The Harley's that he has diagnosed your H as always being this way?? This is a process not an event!



How are you doing HbH?

tst,

thanks for checking We had a counseling session with Steve on Monday and have another one tomorrow.

Steve asked if I could see progress with BaT and I answered definitely. The past three weeks have been completely different than the past 5 months...not that BaT is "there" yet, but at least he is trying.

We had to come back to our old hometown this week for business, so its not easy on either one of us. Our office is "trigger-central" for me, but we are doing MUCH better than we were last month when we came. I printed out SMB's post on triggers...and just try to stay busy.

TST,

I was talking about the FOG, my brotha, not withdrawal,

If we say someone is in the fog or has foggy thinking, this thinking is tainted or convoluted by the trance the OP if putting on the wayward. They say foggy stupid illogical things because the endorphines and dopomines are saturating the WW brain with "good vibrations", causing that WW to not think nor speak like a normal, sane person.

Now WITHDRAWAL, now that is another thing entirely, and I totally agree with your (Dr. H's) definition of WITHDRAWAL.


But did not HBH indicate that there was no real withdrawal in evidence right after Dday?
Correct me if I am wrong on this, (I know you will).

I'm just saying...

kirk

HbH,

I meant to check in on ya yesterday too.....my bad....

I'm glad to hear things are going BETTER. This all will take time. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of time. And both of your parts. There are three healings going on here. Yours, his, and together. I really do have hope for the two of you.

EVEN with all his fogginess (so far, everything he has said, is not any different than any other WS has said. Even in Recovery.....its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....), I did get the impression from his FEW posting that he really does want this marriage to work out. And that he loves you.

And if YOU can remember the man he once was, it will help you.

Also, try an remember that he is in pain as well (and not from missing OW...). It takes a big fall to do what he has done. And its even hard to face it and OWN it.

Did you talk to Steve about MBW, yet?...I haven't been, but have heard so many good things about it, I know it would be worth it for you two......

Anyway, keep posting and if you have any questions feel free to ask....

not2fun

***edit***

Moderator's Note: Do NOT edit posts after a moderator edit. Thank you.

N2F,

""its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....),""

Yeah, kinda like that only, like, DIFFERENT!!

How about JOCKBABBLE??

The man is over the affair!! He hates the nannybimbo probably as much as HBH.

He is having trouble realizing the depth of the hurt and heartache he has loosed on his wife.

He cannot comprehend how terribly destructive his actions have been on his wife, nor, down deep does he really want to.

Hence the frustration.

imho

kirk

Krusht,

If you want to bump BaT's thread and point these things out and ridicule him over there..... so be it. But coming on a BS'es thread and posting these comments is not helpful to her recovery at all.

How do your posts help this marriage?

What are your suggestions for HbH?

How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?

t/j

tst...your siggy lines make me chuckle.

JUST because the affair ended doesn't mean the side effects ended too.....I'll never forget Mimi constantly reminding me that her H didn't fully come out of the fog for 9 months, and it was a full year before the last of the fog disappeared. In my sitch, it was a bit longer. Him hating the OW doesn't really have anything to do fogbabble. The fogbabble has more to do with the justification of the affair and the brain trying to work AROUND the awful deed they have done......


Yes I realize this.....BUT its because he is too engrossed in his OWN pain at this point. The pain of doing this repulsive act......


This whole statement is DJ. If he "really" didn't want to, then why is he counseling with Steve Harley???.....

I think he does know what destruction he has done, but he's not there yet. It all takes time.....And in the grand scheme of things, its only been 5 months, which is not all that long, even though to the BS it sure as heck feels like it....

t/j

SMB,

I loved what you posted to HbH about handling the triggers. It is some of the best techniques I've seen in these parts. You should consider copying those onto Mark's "Managing Triggers" thread. I know I booked mard them for when ever they may come in handy.....

Hope all is well with you two. My prayers are still with you in this time of need..... (TST, could you pass this on to SMB for me??...thanx....)

not2fun

TST,

The point of my reply is that the guy is not in a foggy state.

The guy needs to come to grips with what he has done to his family and his wife.

I don't think I am ridiculing him. I am taking what HBH says about him and defining him the way I see him. He is not foggy spouting fog-babble, and if you think he is, then your idea of the FOG and mine are different. **edit**

HBH knows better than any of us what he is. My posts help her, as do everyone's posts help her, get different perspectives on her sitch. Sometimes the participants are way too close to the action to see the different angles.

Help

**edit**

""How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?""

Gosh, **edit** they are counseling with Dr. H, which is about as best as one can do, so I think they are doing everything humanly possible as far as MB goes.

**edit**

We will need to agree to disagree on this....

Fog/withdrawal/bassakward thinking.... I mean they all run hand in hand with a wayward and I use the term fog to describe a wayward that is acting out of character. And yes, HbH has said this was out of character for her H pre-A. Sorry, but I just see him as being in a typical fog.



**edit**
Just ideas and support that do not include ridicule.

Thanks not! SMB had a very tough time with the loss of her friend. Sent her all the way back to her D-Days, but we worked throught it all together and find ourselves doing well today.

TST et al,

""Edited by Revera (02/23/10 11:41 PM)
Edit Reason: TOS - disrespectful""

I truly was not trying to be dis-respectful to you, maybe a little smarty pantsy is all.

I apologize if it got out of hand. And for the thread jack taking attention away from the thread.

Geeze I havn't been MOD-edited for quite a while!!

kirk

((((HBH))))),

It's been awhile. How are things holding up???.....Hope things are still progressing well.....Remember, we are here if you need anything....

not2fun

NOT,

thanks for checking in

Well, the last session with Steve was 2-24...he gave BaT a "timeline" assignment...which BaT will never do...and I told Steve that, but he gave it to BaT anyway...

Basically, BaT isn't going to to do it, and Steve said he needs to do it before we have another counseling session, so that's where its at...

Things were really going as good as they could given the sitch, up until that point...and now every day that goes by is just a reminder that I'm not worth the effort...

We have fought every day for the last four days I am just SO angry all over again...its like I'm back to square one. There were a few weeks when I really thought he was at least going to try and put this back on track and do the MB thing...
But then when Steve gave the timeline assignment to him, I knew it was over because I'd been asking for that since day one. I tried to explain to BaT tonight at dinner why I'm SO angry now...To me it's simple, it's an absolute slap-in-the-face for him to say he wants to stay and work on this...then work on it with MB and Steve...until he is told to do something he doesnt want to do...and then he's finished with it. What message does that send to me??? That our family isn't worth the effort...

I went in my little boy's room tonite to watch him while he slept...and I see the plain taupe walls of a rental house. This is not my son's room. My son's room was brightly painted with character decals, with custom shelves for his toys and a custom fan that was decorated with his favorite character and a specialty bed of his favorite character. But we had to leave that home....I don't know how BaT even looks in the mirror...

It is not normal to hate someone this much...it is not good and it is not normal...

You are angry because you have been wronged, this is normal.

And he won't look in the mirror. Waywards don't do it because, OMG, they might see something that does not absolutely thrill them and if they do THAT, well then, it's a mortal sin to them to not be thrilled by everything.

HBH,

I'm sorry to hear of this turn of events. Have you asked BaT WHY he hasn't done the assignment? And if so what is his excuses reasons?....

I have NO doubts that this is causing your anger to building which will lead to some deep resentments......

I pray this is a stumbling block in your road to recovery......


not2fun

BaT is trying to see if he can bully and stonewall you into backing down. Don't. He'd rather let you and the children suffer than face the discomfort of cleaning up his own mess. That means he's still an addict and a wayward, because neither one has one ounce of empathy for anybody else.

You may well need Plan B very soon to protect yourself and your children from the WS's selfishness and cruelty. That way, BaT will be on his own to figure things out for himself. In the end, he'll have to do that anyway. You can't do it for him. Nobody can.

Putting up the boundary of Plan B will also give you some control over the situation instead of being at the mercy of a selfish wayward. That's (partly) why you are so angry now - because you have virtually no defenses against whatever cruelty he decides to dish out today.

Did I send you the "Boundaries" post? I don't remember - I'll post it again below. Plan B could well stand for Plan Boundary. Especially check the last paragraph.

****************
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.