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HBH,

Everyone says your H is in the "fog", but by definition I do not think he is.

The fog is what a wayward is in that is still under the spell of the endorphines and dopamines secreted by the brain because of the contact the WW still has with the OP. That is why fogbabble come out of the WW's mouth. Why they say and behave in such a stupid fashion. They are not thinking right, because they are still in the trance of the affair.

From what you have said, once the A was discovered, your boy was totally through with the bimbo and was agreeable to work on the M. I believe you even said there was no withdrawal required with the guy. So I do not think he is in any kind of fog.

This, unfortunately is how and who he is.

If I may go back to the "jock culture" theme again. The jocks see women as sport, that a man and woman get together for some hard core physical activity. It is all physical. It is exciting and dangerous too, but to the jock, it is all physical. No mental activity is required, no emotions, love, etc. Almost like going to the gym for a workout.

So now that it is over, he looks back on it like string of football games that he enjoyed. MrRollieEyes

That is why he is over it so easily, and why he can't empathize with what you are feeling. I think the only way he might "get it" is if the tables were turned and he was faced with YOU being physically with another man.

IMHO

kirk



CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
krusht #2327671 02/22/10 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Krusht
Everyone says your H is in the "fog", but by definition I do not think he is.


Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Withdrawal is the emotional reaction to the loss of something that gives great pleasure. It's similar to the feelings an alcoholic has when he makes a commitment never to drink again. It's also similar to the grief that comes from the loss of a loved one. A lover is like alcohol and like a loved one. Not only do unfaithful spouses miss what it was their lovers did, meeting important emotional needs, but they also miss the person they had come to love.
Our most common emotions are anger, anxiety and depression. Symptoms of withdrawal usually include all of these in a very intense form. I usually suggest that anti-depressant medication be used to help alleviate these symptoms. While the most intense symptoms of withdrawal usually last only about three weeks, in some cases they can linger for six months or longer before they start to fade.


Dr. Harley's opinion is this process begins after this length of time....





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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HbH,

Yes, it is obvious that your H still has quite a bit of foggy thinking!

This fogginess can and will improve as you both continue to work the MB program!

I'm stunned with Kirks suggestion that after 1 week of coaching with The Harley's that he has diagnosed your H as always being this way?? This is a process not an event!



How are you doing HbH?








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tst,

thanks for checking smile We had a counseling session with Steve on Monday and have another one tomorrow.

Steve asked if I could see progress with BaT and I answered definitely. The past three weeks have been completely different than the past 5 months...not that BaT is "there" yet, but at least he is trying.

We had to come back to our old hometown this week for business, so its not easy on either one of us. Our office is "trigger-central" for me, but we are doing MUCH better than we were last month when we came. I printed out SMB's post on triggers...and just try to stay busy.


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TST,

I was talking about the FOG, my brotha, not withdrawal,

If we say someone is in the fog or has foggy thinking, this thinking is tainted or convoluted by the trance the OP if putting on the wayward. They say foggy stupid illogical things because the endorphines and dopomines are saturating the WW brain with "good vibrations", causing that WW to not think nor speak like a normal, sane person.

Now WITHDRAWAL, now that is another thing entirely, and I totally agree with your (Dr. H's) definition of WITHDRAWAL.


But did not HBH indicate that there was no real withdrawal in evidence right after Dday?
Correct me if I am wrong on this, (I know you will). rotflmao

I'm just saying...

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
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HbH,

I meant to check in on ya yesterday too.....my bad.... blush

I'm glad to hear things are going BETTER. This all will take time. LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of time. And both of your parts. There are three healings going on here. Yours, his, and together. I really do have hope for the two of you.

EVEN with all his fogginess (so far, everything he has said, is not any different than any other WS has said. Even in Recovery.....its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....), I did get the impression from his FEW posting that he really does want this marriage to work out. And that he loves you.

And if YOU can remember the man he once was, it will help you.

Also, try an remember that he is in pain as well (and not from missing OW...). It takes a big fall to do what he has done. And its even hard to face it and OWN it.

Did you talk to Steve about MBW, yet?...I haven't been, but have heard so many good things about it, I know it would be worth it for you two......

Anyway, keep posting and if you have any questions feel free to ask....

not2fun

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***edit***

Moderator's Note: Do NOT edit posts after a moderator edit. Thank you.

Last edited by McLovin; 02/23/10 06:59 PM. Reason: TOS Violations

CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
not2fun #2328173 02/23/10 03:57 PM
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N2F,

""its sorta like all the fogbabble we hear in an active affair....),""

Yeah, kinda like that only, like, DIFFERENT!!

How about JOCKBABBLE?? rotflmao

The man is over the affair!! He hates the nannybimbo probably as much as HBH.

He is having trouble realizing the depth of the hurt and heartache he has loosed on his wife.

He cannot comprehend how terribly destructive his actions have been on his wife, nor, down deep does he really want to.

Hence the frustration.

imho

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
krusht #2328188 02/23/10 04:29 PM
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Krusht,

If you want to bump BaT's thread and point these things out and ridicule him over there..... so be it. But coming on a BS'es thread and posting these comments is not helpful to her recovery at all.

How do your posts help this marriage?

What are your suggestions for HbH?

How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?








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Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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t/j

tst...your siggy lines make me chuckle.

krusht #2328209 02/23/10 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by krusht
The man is over the affair!! He hates the nannybimbo probably as much as HBH.

JUST because the affair ended doesn't mean the side effects ended too.....I'll never forget Mimi constantly reminding me that her H didn't fully come out of the fog for 9 months, and it was a full year before the last of the fog disappeared. In my sitch, it was a bit longer. Him hating the OW doesn't really have anything to do fogbabble. The fogbabble has more to do with the justification of the affair and the brain trying to work AROUND the awful deed they have done......

Originally Posted by kirk
He is having trouble realizing the depth of the hurt and heartache he has loosed on his wife.

Yes I realize this.....BUT its because he is too engrossed in his OWN pain at this point. The pain of doing this repulsive act......

Originally Posted by kirk
He cannot comprehend how terribly destructive his actions have been on his wife, nor, down deep does he really want to.

This whole statement is DJ. If he "really" didn't want to, then why is he counseling with Steve Harley???.....

I think he does know what destruction he has done, but he's not there yet. It all takes time.....And in the grand scheme of things, its only been 5 months, which is not all that long, even though to the BS it sure as heck feels like it....

t/j

SMB,

I loved what you posted to HbH about handling the triggers. It is some of the best techniques I've seen in these parts. You should consider copying those onto Mark's "Managing Triggers" thread. I know I booked mard them for when ever they may come in handy..... grin

Hope all is well with you two. My prayers are still with you in this time of need..... hug (TST, could you pass this on to SMB for me??...thanx....)

not2fun

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TST,

The point of my reply is that the guy is not in a foggy state.

The guy needs to come to grips with what he has done to his family and his wife.

I don't think I am ridiculing him. I am taking what HBH says about him and defining him the way I see him. He is not foggy spouting fog-babble, and if you think he is, then your idea of the FOG and mine are different. **edit**

HBH knows better than any of us what he is. My posts help her, as do everyone's posts help her, get different perspectives on her sitch. Sometimes the participants are way too close to the action to see the different angles.

Help

**edit**

""How would you suggest she use MB to continue the successful progress they are making?""

Gosh, **edit** they are counseling with Dr. H, which is about as best as one can do, so I think they are doing everything humanly possible as far as MB goes.

**edit**

Last edited by Revera; 02/23/10 11:41 PM. Reason: TOS - disrespectful

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krusht #2328301 02/23/10 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by krusht
TST,

The point of my reply is that the guy is not in a foggy state.

We will need to agree to disagree on this....

Fog/withdrawal/bassakward thinking.... I mean they all run hand in hand with a wayward and I use the term fog to describe a wayward that is acting out of character. And yes, HbH has said this was out of character for her H pre-A. Sorry, but I just see him as being in a typical fog.



**edit**
Just ideas and support that do not include ridicule.


Last edited by Revera; 02/23/10 11:41 PM. Reason: removing quote




Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
not2fun #2328570 02/24/10 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by not2fun
t/j

SMB,

I loved what you posted to HbH about handling the triggers. It is some of the best techniques I've seen in these parts. You should consider copying those onto Mark's "Managing Triggers" thread. I know I booked mard them for when ever they may come in handy..... grin

Hope all is well with you two. My prayers are still with you in this time of need..... hug (TST, could you pass this on to SMB for me??...thanx....)

not2fun


Thanks not! SMB had a very tough time with the loss of her friend. Sent her all the way back to her D-Days, but we worked throught it all together and find ourselves doing well today. smile





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
krusht #2328739 02/24/10 03:52 PM
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TST et al,

""Edited by Revera (02/23/10 11:41 PM)
Edit Reason: TOS - disrespectful""


I truly was not trying to be dis-respectful to you, maybe a little smarty pantsy is all.

I apologize if it got out of hand. And for the thread jack taking attention away from the thread.

Geeze I havn't been MOD-edited for quite a while!! doh2

kirk


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krusht #2332439 03/04/10 02:43 PM
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((((HBH))))),

It's been awhile. How are things holding up???.....Hope things are still progressing well.....Remember, we are here if you need anything....

not2fun

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NOT,

thanks for checking in smile

Well, the last session with Steve was 2-24...he gave BaT a "timeline" assignment...which BaT will never do...and I told Steve that, but he gave it to BaT anyway...

Basically, BaT isn't going to to do it, and Steve said he needs to do it before we have another counseling session, so that's where its at...

Things were really going as good as they could given the sitch, up until that point...and now every day that goes by is just a reminder that I'm not worth the effort...

We have fought every day for the last four days frown I am just SO angry all over again...its like I'm back to square one. There were a few weeks when I really thought he was at least going to try and put this back on track and do the MB thing...
But then when Steve gave the timeline assignment to him, I knew it was over because I'd been asking for that since day one. I tried to explain to BaT tonight at dinner why I'm SO angry now...To me it's simple, it's an absolute slap-in-the-face for him to say he wants to stay and work on this...then work on it with MB and Steve...until he is told to do something he doesnt want to do...and then he's finished with it. What message does that send to me??? That our family isn't worth the effort...

I went in my little boy's room tonite to watch him while he slept...and I see the plain taupe walls of a rental house. This is not my son's room. My son's room was brightly painted with character decals, with custom shelves for his toys and a custom fan that was decorated with his favorite character and a specialty bed of his favorite character. But we had to leave that home....I don't know how BaT even looks in the mirror...

It is not normal to hate someone this much...it is not good and it is not normal...

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You are angry because you have been wronged, this is normal.

And he won't look in the mirror. Waywards don't do it because, OMG, they might see something that does not absolutely thrill them and if they do THAT, well then, it's a mortal sin to them to not be thrilled by everything.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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HBH,

I'm sorry to hear of this turn of events. Have you asked BaT WHY he hasn't done the assignment? And if so what is his excuses reasons?....

I have NO doubts that this is causing your anger to building which will lead to some deep resentments......

I pray this is a stumbling block in your road to recovery......
hug

not2fun

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BaT is trying to see if he can bully and stonewall you into backing down. Don't. He'd rather let you and the children suffer than face the discomfort of cleaning up his own mess. That means he's still an addict and a wayward, because neither one has one ounce of empathy for anybody else.

You may well need Plan B very soon to protect yourself and your children from the WS's selfishness and cruelty. That way, BaT will be on his own to figure things out for himself. In the end, he'll have to do that anyway. You can't do it for him. Nobody can.

Putting up the boundary of Plan B will also give you some control over the situation instead of being at the mercy of a selfish wayward. That's (partly) why you are so angry now - because you have virtually no defenses against whatever cruelty he decides to dish out today.

Did I send you the "Boundaries" post? I don't remember - I'll post it again below. Plan B could well stand for Plan Boundary. Especially check the last paragraph.

****************
A boundary is not defined as "something I don't like."

A boundary is defined as "something I will defend no matter what."

A very common question is, "How do I enforce a boundary? How do I make my spouse stop lying, how do I make my spouse stop dating OP, how do I make my spouse start taking care of our family instead of someone else's?"

The answer is: You don't.

Trying to "make" people do the things listed above is not enforcing a boundary. It's control, it's manipulation, it's laying down demands, etc. etc. etc.

And none of it works.

The answer to the question, "How Do I Enforce A Boundary?" is virtually always the same:

You remove yourself from the situation. You stop allowing the boundary trespasser to have any access to you at all.

This is what's meant by, "You can't control others. You can only control yourself."

You can't "make" your spouse stop lying to you - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse stop dating OP - - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

You can't "make" your spouse take care of your family instead of someone else's - but you can remove yourself from their presence and no longer allow them around you until they do.

Get the idea now?

Boundaries are for *you*. They are to protect you from people who would do you harm. They are NOT about "making" others do anything. They are about protecting *YOU*.

Castle walls don't make the invaders stop their cruel and destructive attitudes - but they do protect you from their intrusion.

Boundaries are castle walls.

And as far as anger goes, you will find that good boundaries will make much of it go away. Good boundaries really do make RAGE dissipate, because anger + fear = rage. Good boundaries keep you safe, and when you are safe, fear goes away. You will certainly have some righteous anger left, sure, but the RAGE will fade away because there is no longer the fear hanging around to fuel it.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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