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Originally Posted by codtej
I just wonder even though I may trust her one day will it always be a tainted trust, or a trust with one eye open? Is that real trust?

I trust airline pilots ... most of the time. My trust is tainted because there is such a thing as pilot error.

I trust physicians. Not all of them. Physicians have been known to make serious errors in judgment. Just ask Michael Jackson's family.

I trust other drivers will stop at a red light. But I use caution at every intersection .... just in case.

I trust my daughter. But, I took her to get birth control anyway. I am so glad I did.

I trust the investment firm where I have the bulk of my money. I still check it daily. Just in case.

I trust most cashiers. I count my change anyway.

I don't trust most car repair service places. That's why I rely on my husband to take our cars in for repairs.

I trust my husband, 14 years into recovery. I do fact-checks from time to time.

I trust myself to recognize when something is amiss. But, I have been known to be lazy sometimes, so my self trust is also tainted. For good reason.

Yes. Tainted trust is real trust. It's not blind trust.



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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by codtej
I just wonder even though I may trust her one day will it always be a tainted trust, or a trust with one eye open? Is that real trust?

I trust airline pilots ... most of the time. My trust is tainted because there is such a thing as pilot error.

I trust physicians. Not all of them. Physicians have been known to make serious errors in judgment. Just ask Michael Jackson's family.

I trust other drivers will stop at a red light. But I use caution at every intersection .... just in case.

I trust my daughter. But, I took her to get birth control anyway. I am so glad I did.

I trust the investment firm where I have the bulk of my money. I still check it daily. Just in case.

I trust most cashiers. I count my change anyway.

I don't trust most car repair service places. That's why I rely on my husband to take our cars in for repairs.

I trust my husband, 14 years into recovery. I do fact-checks from time to time.

I trust myself to recognize when something is amiss. But, I have been known to be lazy sometimes, so my self trust is also tainted. For good reason.

Yes. Tainted trust is real trust. It's not blind trust.



As always, Pep, you say it so well.


D-Day EA 11/29/08
D-Day PA 12/12/08

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COD:

Pep has a good list and a way of looking at trust that is reality.

Nobody trusts 100%.

What you mean is a 100% trust that she will not cheat on you again.

And she wants you to to trust her again, really, really bad.

What you mean is that you want to believe that she will put your interests (not being hurt) ahead of her own. Which might be anything.

There is an old saying:

Women marry men expecting them to change; men marry women expecting them not to change. They are both wrong.

Both men and women are social creatures, women more so than men. If your wife has a group of female friends who cheat, so will she.

Not all women cheat. At least half of them do at some point in their life.

Not all men cheat. At least half of them do at some point in their life.

Since the opposite sex cheats at least at the 50% level, what are the odds? With those odds, do you act as it is 100% she won't? Duh.

Now trust is an interesting way of putting it, but the reality is that you don't want her putting out for some low life, right?

Of course not.

Do you want to trust her so you don't have to make any effort to keep her happy? After all, she is supposed to be your partner, so that means not cheating, right? Well, it doesn't work that way in real life.

Does she want you to trust her so you don't cramp her style? Could be. Odds are 50-50% that is exactly the case. Given her track record, odds are way higher than that.

Your wife is already giving you hints you shouldn't trust here and that is okay. Only a fool trusts 100%. I know, I was that fool.

Right now there is some stuff going on with my ex-wife where she needs my help. There is a down side for me. Should I trust her completely without negotiation to make sure I don't take it in the wrong place? Of course.

See, your wife is not the sweet, young and inexperienced girl you found and married. She is who she is. And she works for her own self interest and the approval of her peers, which might not at all be in your self interest.

Let me end this way long diatribe by simply saying that if I had a wife who hung out with a bunch of girls who liked to flirt and cover for each other, she would continue to do so as a single person.

Larry

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Trust = Credibility + Empathy (T=C+E)

Credibility can be measured, quantified and verified. Lies that are caught or discovered or even confessed diminish the value of C.

Empathy cannot be measured. It is not quantifiable and there is really no way to verify it, since a person who is lying to us clearly has no empathy for us and our feelings. E must be demonstrated by what a person does. E is the demonstration of putting another person's value and well being ahead of ourselves.

Before we are betrayed we think we should simply trust our spouse to take our feelings into account in all that he or she does. We assume E and don't bother to measure or verify C. An act of betrayal shows us that C was really not a real value and that E that was assumed was also a very low value.

The way trust is restored after betrayal is by measuring C as E is demonstrated. In other words, trust comes from being trustworthy and by demonstrating that trust is warranted.

T returns to a significant value when we can verify a high value of C and the perceived value of E has been shown by actions to be reasonably true.

A race car driver trusts his crew to set up the car for the race. He trusts that the tires are inflated to the right pressure, are on the car in the right place (critical in race cars is tire size at operating pressure and temperature) and that all the nuts and bolts, several hundred of them highly critical to performance, are tightened and will not work loose.

When the green flag drops, he may accelerate to speeds approaching or in some cases exceeding 200 MPH then enter a corner, in some cases without even lifting off the throttle, still gaining speed.If something is not right, almost anything is not right, he relives the old country and western song "Hello Wall." His very life is in the hands of the people who designed, fabricated, welded, measured, researched and assembled all of the pieces of his car. Any one of them having a lapse in judgment, dedication to perfection or ability to perform his job can result in death.

Yet when the green flag is waved, the driver stands on the gas and trusts that the car is going to "stick" and that it will in fact go around the corner and not cause him to become a statistic of poor performance by the members of his team.

But he didn't just climb in the car and mash the throttle. He has learned to trust his team based on experience and past performance. He didn't drive 200 MPH the first time he climbed in any car and not even the first time he climbed into the car he is driving in the race. Even his crew has done extensive work to ensure that his trust is warranted. They are trusted by the driver because they have earned his trust.

Those who make errors along the course of a race and let a wheel fall off the car or some nuts loosen and end the race early get to prove that they have corrected the flaws in the way they do things. Consistent failure results in no longer being trusted and the team can eventually reach a point of having to replace that member of the team.

A person released from a team for poor performance often gets another chance, but at first every act is scrutinized, double and triple checked and individually verified. Those who can never seem to show that they can be trusted end up as spectators but the ones who learn from their errors and strive to improve their own performance can go on to long and happy careers.

Trust cannot be bestowed. It must be earned.

It should never be assumed since in order to have T be of a significant value, C must be measured and E must be demonstrated.

Mark


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All excellent points brought up, I will take them all in and reflect on them, I do appreciate you guys help.

I am trying to get back to where I was, emotionally and spiritually, when my FWW was on vacation Oct/Nov. I've allowed myself to have my boundaries weakened and I am suffering from it. I have started to shore myself back up and feel I want to do some more IC sessions, perhaps with a new therapist.

It is slowly sinking in about trusting my wife. I will tell you that in my every day life I am not naive or some hayseed. I keep my guard up when I initially meet someone.

I guess when it comes to love, that's my achilles heel. Either I assumed one gives their heart 100%, or it's just my make up, regardless, I found out the hard way.



Me: BH, 49 yrs old
Her: FWW 44 yrs old
A's occurred in 1988
Dday #1 (2 A's) Aug. 26, 2009
Dday #2 (3 A's) Sep. 5, 2009

My story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...744#Post2279744

Not sure where we are going...?


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Personally I couldn't be in a marriage without a certain amount of trust, I know I'm the bad thing doer and probably don't deserve any kind of trust but there you go. I believe it would be nothing but torture to be with someone who you don't trust.

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Originally Posted by lokil
Personally I couldn't be in a marriage without a certain amount of trust, I know I'm the bad thing doer and probably don't deserve any kind of trust but there you go. I believe it would be nothing but torture to be with someone who you don't trust.

Actually, I quite agree.

If the "bad doer" fails to earn trust by becoming a "good doer", there is no need to pretend they can/should be trusted.

Trust must be EARNED , it's not a gift or a lottery win.

I would never torture myself by remaining in an intimate relationship with an unrepentant "bad doer".

PS:

NO ONE "deserves" trust.
Not myself.
Not you.
No one.
It must be earned.
I must earn trust.
You must earn trust.

The word "deserve" has no relevance.


Last edited by Pepperband; 02/20/10 01:16 PM. Reason: the word "deserve"
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Originally Posted by lokil
Personally I couldn't be in a marriage without a certain amount of trust, I know I'm the bad thing doer and probably don't deserve any kind of trust but there you go. I believe it would be nothing but torture to be with someone who you don't trust.

Hopefully, one day you'll "get it." Waywards who "get it" do understand the trust issue.


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I like your quote goldenyears,and I get the trust issue, my thinking is you either forgive or you don't, if you do decide to forgive its more like throwing out the old vase and getting a new one, I cannot imagine living with a glued together vase for the rest of my life.

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Originally Posted by lokil
Personally I couldn't be in a marriage without a certain amount of trust, I know I'm the bad thing doer and probably don't deserve any kind of trust but there you go. I believe it would be nothing but torture to be with someone who you don't trust.

It is torture to live with someone who lies and cheats. See how too much trust in your marriage has allowed you to harm your H behind his back? He should have never trusted you because you can't be trusted. If he had only trusted you LESS, he would have likely taken the neccesary steps to protect himself from your evil.

It is not a lack of trust that destroys marriages, but a lack of boundaries. You are a perfect demonstation of why TRUST is bad for marriages.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by lokil
I like your quote goldenyears,and I get the trust issue, my thinking is you either forgive or you don't, if you do decide to forgive its more like throwing out the old vase and getting a new one, I cannot imagine living with a glued together vase for the rest of my life.

"Forgiveness" does not mean that it is smart to afford undeserved trust to untrustworthy people, that would be insane. Forgiveness does not mean you give the bank robber the keys to the bank. It means you watch him CLOSER in the future because you know what he is capable of.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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If I cant trust my spouse to not cheat again then why would i want to stay with him, untrustworthy-ness is more of a burden to the betrayed spouse than anything, the fact that my husband trusted me or not couldn't change what happened, unless he changed jobs ages ago and then nothing would have happened in the first place. I just couldn't be with someone I don't trust. Also I understand if someone doesn't want to be with me because they don't trust me.

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Originally Posted by lokil
If I cant trust my spouse to not cheat again then why would i want to stay with him, untrustworthy-ness is more of a burden to the betrayed spouse than anything, the fact that my husband trusted me or not couldn't change what happened, unless he changed jobs ages ago and then nothing would have happened in the first place. I just couldn't be with someone I don't trust. Also I understand if someone doesn't want to be with me because they don't trust me.

You can't blindly trust anyone not to cheat, that is unrealistic. Blind trust is what leads to affairs.

See how your H has destroyed his marriage by trusting you? As you can see, "trust" did not protect your marriage, it harmed it. If your H had not trusted you, as he should not have, then he would have taken steps to protect his marriage. But he didn't... And here you are today.. reduced to a liar and a cheater.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Lets say my H didn't trust me what happened happened with or without trust.

Of course you cannot blindly trust anyone but you cannot be paranoid all the time about your spouse cheating that would only hurt you.

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Originally Posted by lokil
Lets say my H didn't trust me what happened happened with or without trust.

Probably not. If he knew he couldn't trust you, he would have watched you more closely. But he didn't. Instead of being out of town, he might have been with you so you couldn't get it on with his friend. People who trust too much have poor boundaries. As has been proven in your case.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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That would have been great I hate his job, I wish he were here not to watch me but to be with me.

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This thread has been helpful and I've learned that my lack of boundaries allowed what happened to happen. I was told, right about at day 1 by my therapist, I have some severe boundary issues, and boy was she spot on.

I didn't know what boundaries were until a few months ago. Sure I knew the definition of the word and knew it didn't apply to just property, but I never REALLY knew what it meant when applied to oneself.

I know my wifes A's are something she chose to do, and is 100% her responsibility. My lack of boundaries, or even any marital problems we had, did not give her permission to cheat. If I had better boundaries, (or even any at all), I would've noticed what was going on and put in measures to stop it at number 1.....I did not. Lack of boundaries, blinders on, lack of self worth and self esteem, insecurities, etc, etc, etc.

Trying to instill personal boundaries AND trying to deal with past A's are difficult to do, at the same time. I am trying to do so however.



Me: BH, 49 yrs old
Her: FWW 44 yrs old
A's occurred in 1988
Dday #1 (2 A's) Aug. 26, 2009
Dday #2 (3 A's) Sep. 5, 2009

My story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...744#Post2279744

Not sure where we are going...?


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I applaud you, codtej. This, to me, is what Marriage Builders is all about. We have to identify and work on our own shortcomings before we can have healthy relationships.

Even if the current relationship goes by the wayside, if we come out better and stronger than before, Marriage Builders has been a success!


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
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codtej Offline OP
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Thanks Fred, its prolly a combination of MB, which is you guys, part of my IC sessions, AND some of my own inner reflections. I will say I feel I have a long way to go before I am able to go one way or the other.

Its odd to me, even though Dday is about 6 months and I don't feel as sad as before, and I don't cry hardly at all, however when I think of the A's I often feel angry towards my wife. I think of her as being selfish. I feel distant from her at times, and I really wonder about our future now.

Just after Dday I didn't think along those lines, I suppose I was in a lot of hurt and pain...now I am looking at it all differently and I just don't know.


Me: BH, 49 yrs old
Her: FWW 44 yrs old
A's occurred in 1988
Dday #1 (2 A's) Aug. 26, 2009
Dday #2 (3 A's) Sep. 5, 2009

My story: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/u...744#Post2279744

Not sure where we are going...?


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How ironic that I found this topic...

My H doesn't understand why saying he's committed to us doesn't earn him my trust back.

What happens when you can't move away from the city of the A? We can't afford to move. What happens when he works in the same city she does? When she knows and hangs out with his friends? He says that she's not in his life blah blah and that I'M the one that keeps bringing her back into it.

We were about to go to bi-weekly counseling but I called and he's going to squeeze one in this Wed.

We cannot have a true R where we are unless he takes drastic measures he doesn't seem willing to make. I'm always the one to do our counseling assignments first. I haven't done the last one yet but he hasn't either. And it's been at least a week since I read anything from 'Love Busters' to him.

We've had a good couple weeks. Valentines was beautiful, we had a great night out together with friends.

He seems to think that a few weeks is enough. He came home today and went straight to bed saying he was depressed. I really don't like how things look right now but I'm not blind anymore.

We'll see how Wed. goes because I'm almost positive he won't want to discuss the trust thing before then, or if we do it'll be very short and unproductive before one of us becomes reactive.

(((Everyone)))
-=Phoenix


-= Phoenix
I am BW-25
WH-27
Married since 7/07
A from 1/09-7/09

"One can't complain. I have my friends. Someone spoke to me only yesterday."-Eeyore
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