Thank you so much Markos.

Amen to that! Is that out of the book Effective Marriage Counseling, markos? Did you actually get the book?

For me personally, that book opened my eyes to how this program is supposed to work in the most effective way.

No, Melody, that's out of the second article I linked to, which you can read here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8116_coach.html

There are lots and lots of gems on this site. It bears re-reading many times. It probably would be smart for me to start a notebook of quotes or something. I'm about to start a near-comprehensive re-read of the site.

Some of the material from the articles I linked might be in the new book; I'm not really sure.

No, I don't have the book; I read every excerpt I could off of Amazon using their "look inside" feature. You get in there and start with the first page they will show and click "next page" repeatedly until you have read everything available. Then click "surprise me" and you will go to a new location in the book. Here's the trick: click back two pages from this point, because you are in the middle of a five page excerpt that has been made available to you. (I think it was 5 pages ... maybe it was 7!) Read all 5 pages, then click surprise me again. Repeat the process for awhile, and you'll get to read a nice healthy "I stood for what seemed like forever in Barnes and Noble looking at this book" chunk of the book. You'll start seeing repeats after awhile, but even after that you may get surprised with something new.

Eventually Amazon's systems will kick you out of that book, or out of the feature for the day, and that's how you know for sure you've seen all it's going to show you.

For the record, you still won't have seen enough of the book to keep buying it from being worthwhile.

I've done this with that Harley book and possibly another, and then several of Gary Chapman's books.

I always find myself doing this with marriage books, usually with something I've already ordered and am waiting to arrive.

Kind of off topic, but I hope MB people will log onto Amazon and rate the book. I bought 12 of these for my kids and their girlfriends/boyfriends for Christmas, and was surprised that very few people had reviewed the book.

This is exactly what I have done too. I have about 10 pages of key quotes and their links to some of the most common situations.

I just wanted to pop in and say thank you all so much for your very helpful and informative discussions. I am really learning a lot.

Just the other day I got upset with my fiance when I found out he had purchased tickets for him, me, and two women (in a romantic, lesbian relationship that I have met once briefly) at work. I had never heard of the band before but apparently one of the co-workers he bought the tickets for introduced him to the band so he felt it was the gentlemanly/nice thing to do to buy them tickets to the concert. I wondered if I was being petty about this, after all, my negative feelings about it can't be about them being women because they are not heterosexual and therefore not interested in my fiance (at least as far as I know) - plus he included me. However, this was independent behavior which he engages in often and from you all I see that I am not crazy for being upset about that. Thank you!

Oh Pepperband,

What great stories about the cars!

Thank you so much for sharing that.

:-)

(and thanks to everyone else too for such a great thread!)

BUMP for needinhope

Bump, for everyone. Everybody ought to read this after they've read through the Basic Concepts, or even before.

BUMP for KnoxVegasBaby

BUMP for my friend KeepLearning!!!

Thanks for the bump Sergeant! You made me smile. When I got to the very last post, after reading THE ENTIRE 18 PAGES, whew!, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you had thought of me. Thanks!

This was really good stuff to read. Some take-away points for me were (underlines are mine, what really stood out to me):

• POJA, which is adopting the Buyer's strategy, which means you must consider both your interests -and- your partner's interests. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
• Your Taker needs to be enthusiastic about every decision. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
• A conflict avoider is emotionally dishonest. [from Pepperband post of Harley quote]
• When we are together, we make sure we ... do things that are mutually agreeable to us. And when we are not together, we make sure we avoid any activity that would cause each other unhappiness. [from Pepperband post]
• The goal of POJA is not to make anything happen or to solve all problems or even to find a way to do anything at all. The GOAL of POJA is to keep us in love with each other. [from Mark1952 post]
• It's the same as changing the mindset about saving money rather than spending money. As long as you want to spend money, you will see saving and investment as a sacrifice which interferes with your immediate pleasure. But when you learn to enjoy having money work for you instead of your working for money, you will look forward to saving and investing, and see spending as a sacrifice that you must sometimes make. [from Retread post]

Even though there's an argumentative segment of this thread on sacrifice where one of the posters is asked to leave, the ideas tossed back and forth in that argument are good food for thought and helped me evolve my understanding of POJA.

I also liked your story about your cars (but was saddened to learn that you had to endure an affair I don't know if I could recover from that; I'd like to think I could, but I hope I never have to find out. I'm sorry you had to find out the hard way, and I admire you for being able to recover.)

There's a copy of post by Star*Fish earlier in this thread that talks about Givers and Takers and asks the question

It then follows with an explanation of how the giver can be be bad and the taker can be good which I found very enlightening. I'm more of a giver-dominant person, and I was particularly interested in how the giver can be bad. My therapist has been helping me with balancing my giver and taker; I used to believe that suppressing my taker was good because to do otherwise was selfish. She told me to think of it not as "selfishness," but as "self-advocacy." Redefining it this way has helped me with the giver/taker balance.

I think my giver-dominance was influenced by Christian education when I was growing up. I still go back and forth with this and am wondering if anyone has some insight. The Bible abounds with verses about humbling yourself, denying yourself, thinking of others more highly than yourself, etc., which seem to be in line with the giver-dominant personality trait. Yet I'm convinced by this thread that giver-dominance is destructive to a relationship. What's the correct way to align the idea that the giver can be bad with the Christian principle of self-denial?

Thanks again for the bump, Pepperband. As a result I ordered three Dr. Harley books earlier today:

• Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders (how could I not?)
• Effective Marriage Counseling (because of what Markos and Melody had to say about it)
• His Needs, Her Needs for Parents (so that my order would be over $25 and I could get free shipping with Amazon; now my girlfriend and I will both have a copy and we can read it together!)

You're welcome, friend.

Thanks again Pepperband for turnnig me on to this topic. I started reading BRF recently, and it's very interesting. I'm only up to about page 40 or 50, but I like it a lot, and I would already recommend it to anyone who hasn't read it.

One thing that surprised me was Dr. Harley's description of his dating experience with Joyce. He talks about being a freeloader when they first started dating, changing to a renter, and then deciding to become a buyer by marrying her. The part that suprised me was that while they were engaged, Joyce actually dated someone else "as a last fling." They obviously worked that out, but he did say he had some reservations about whether she might repeat that after they got married. She assured him she wouldn't, and he believed her, but it must've been awfully unsettling to go through. I tried imagining how I would feel if I was engaged and my fiancee started dating someone else - at a minimum, I'd lose confidence in the relationship. I would expect my fiancee to at least break off the engagement before dating someone else.

He also describes Joyce and himself dating many other people before they married but not finding any that were as compatible as they were with each other. Their dating experience gave them both confirmation that they were right for each other. They were 19 and 20 when they married, and I wonder if such extensive dating is necessary for someone much older, say 40's or 50's. I would think by then, such a person would have a much better understanding of who they are and what they want in a marriage partner and wouldn't have to date 30 people to have confidence in their choice. Maybe not ALL people in that age category have that understanding about themselves, but I think some do.

Anyways, love the book, thanks for the recommendation!

I have a question for students of Buyers, Renters & Freeloaders.

In the chapter "We All Have Split Personalities," Dr. Harley describes the pros and cons of the Giver and Taker in each of us.

In the two sections "The Buyer's and Freeloader's Agreements Resist Sacrifice" and "The Renter's Agreement Inspires Arguments and Fights," he goes on to say that Freeloaders and Buyers keep their Givers and Takers in check, but Renters do not, and this allows sacrifice into the relationship, which is ultimately destructive.

When I read those sections, it seemed to me that the Renter's agreement should be avoided.

But now that I'm re-reading the book and analyzing it, I found this in an earlier chapter describing the Renter's agreement (from the chapter "I'll Do Anything to Make You Happy...for a While"):

If the Renter's agreement allows sacrifice, which is known to be destructive to a relationship, why is it essential?

Dating stage

Would also be in plan a as well?

Dating is renting. Trying the relationship on for size/fit, while not partaking in relationship negations per se. Taking the relationship for a test-drive, if you will.
Which is why living together while dating can be so confusing and probably mis-guided.
Often, in this modern world, dating couples move in together as "the next step". Meaning, I presume, a step towards marriage.
But, there's a catch. (as usual)

Dating while living together = rental agreement becomes the relationship standard.

Does this make sense?

Also, it was asked...


Plan A is a time-limited provisional arrangement where the Plan A person attempts to make love bank deposits while not having his/her own needs met as they ought to be met. It is a tactical decision, NOT a bad habit that the couple adopts.

See the difference?

Also, Plan A includes the "stick" elements, which are definitely not passive sacrifice/appeasement during an adulterous time of the marriage. The key words are TIME-LIMITED and TACTICAL DECISION.

Nice to get an email notice there is activity on this thread.

Not yet; but it might if you can help me understand a couple things.

Your statement "Dating is renting" throws me off because I think dating can either be freeloading OR renting. From the chapter, "What You See Is What You Get," Dr. Harley clearly states that he was a Freeloader while dating:

Assuming you agree that dating can be either freeloading or renting, what perplexes me is, why would you choose to be a Renter?

From the section, "The Renter's Agreement Inspires Arguments and Fights":

Why would you want to adopt a dating strategy that encourages the worst influence of your Giver and Taker?

I'm not doubting Dr. Harley's assertion that Renting is an essential phase in the development of a romantic relationship; I just want to understand why it's essential. Clearly there's a drawback, but what's the benefit?

PS, I get the part about Renting and living together. I'm thinking more along the lines of dating while NOT living together. Why not choose to be a Freeloader in that case instead of a Renter?