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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So what are the absolute killers, that when they are present, plan D is the best course of action.
Thats differant for diferant people.

Originally Posted by Neak
Quote
It's not surprising that are a higher than average number of successfuly recovered marriages at a site called "Marriage Builders".

There could be a reason for that. wink
x2


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Originally Posted by Dealan-de
>
To apply a cookie cutter action for these situations (as Krazy suggests) is a load of hooey.


This message got lost and I absolutely agree with you.

Happy Anniversary !.

-rh-


Give your absolute best such that you could look back 10 years from now w/ no regret.

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Originally Posted by OurHouse
[I still think that Schtoop's reasons for doubting the recovery of his marriage stand, based ONLY on what he posted here today. I added that caveat STRICTLY so people here on the board wouldn't take me to task for what I don't know. You know...admit the objection up front so your buyer can't throw it out there as an obstacle.

But again, you wouldn't know because you haven't bothered to read his story. Admitting that fact does not give credence to the opinion.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by imanotherone
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So I disagree, if my spouse is angry, especially over something I did, WE have a problem, and it's not wise to just let her work it out on her own.

IF the WS has shown absolutely NO remorse, then I would say you're correct. But IF the FWS is doing everything (by Krazy's own account) to reconcile, then no, I think it's up to the individual to work on their recovery.
I could easily sit here like Krazy and say it's ALL MY FWH's fault that we haven't recovered, but that would not be honest. If I'm truly honest with myself, I understand that in a relationship, I am responsible for working with my demons.
Heck, for all I know, my own personal sense of pride and some early childhood trauma could be responsible for my failure to forgive. I can't blame my H for that. Sure, I blame him for the A, but how I react to his attempts at recovery are mine to own.
Anything else, in my opinion, would be a cop-out.

Yet sometimes, everything in our power is not enough.

How was Krazy's wife supposed to erase the images he had of walking in on her and her lover? It would be interesting to hear him tell how she attempted to address that source of anger.

Or what about the damage done to him because he had experienced prior betrayal. What actions did she take.

All we have is a vague assurance that she did everything.

Maybe she did.

Apparently it wasn't enough.

Sometimes, someone does so much damage to us, with their behavior, that there is no recovery.

Are you suggesting we blame the victim for the damage done by the betrayer?

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You're not going to find a lot of Chemical Engineers on a Needlepoint Discussion Forum

I'll bet there are lots of CE's on Pep's Needlepoint Discussin Forum.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Originally Posted by Gack1
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So what are the absolute killers, that when they are present, plan D is the best course of action.
Thats differant for diferant people.

Originally Posted by Neak
Quote
It's not surprising that are a higher than average number of successfuly recovered marriages at a site called "Marriage Builders".

There could be a reason for that. wink
x2

OK, so you are saying that some may put up with abuse and affairs, but others might find that unacceptable.

How about we apply the Dr H standard to marriage.

According to what we understand about MB, what are the absolute deal breakers that indicate plan D?

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Originally Posted by imanotherone
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So I disagree, if my spouse is angry, especially over something I did, WE have a problem, and it's not wise to just let her work it out on her own.

IF the WS has shown absolutely NO remorse, then I would say you're correct. But IF the FWS is doing everything (by Krazy's own account) to reconcile, then no, I think it's up to the individual to work on their recovery.
I could easily sit here like Krazy and say it's ALL MY FWH's fault that we haven't recovered, but that would not be honest. If I'm truly honest with myself, I understand that in a relationship, I am responsible for working with my demons.
Heck, for all I know, my own personal sense of pride and some early childhood trauma could be responsible for my failure to forgive. I can't blame my H for that. Sure, I blame him for the A, but how I react to his attempts at recovery are mine to own.
Anything else, in my opinion, would be a cop-out.

PS, I don't think you've read Krazy's story. I don't think he totally blames his XWW and says it's all her fault. Go back and look at the thread I posted before.

He thought it was a character flaw in himself. Odd thing is many who are critical of his posting here were telling him the same things I'm saying, that sometimes the damage is too great.

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Trust me, Enlightened, one does NOT have to see the couple in the act to have the image burned into their brains. In fact, although it's a shocking sight, I'd argue that the image in my head of my H with a woman 20 years my junior is probably much worse in my imagination that it is in real life. In real life, there are fat rolls, ugly birthmarks, less-than-spectacular sized... whatever body parts.
So, yes, walking in on the act is horrific, but the IMAGE is no worse than for any betrayed.
I don't blame the victim for the damage done by the betrayer. I just think that the victim also has to do their own heavy lifting if their response is the only thing that is keeping recovery from beginning.


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Originally Posted by Neak
Quote
You're not going to find a lot of Chemical Engineers on a Needlepoint Discussion Forum

I'll bet there are lots of CE's on Pep's Needlepoint Discussin Forum.

I saw that one coming as soon as I typed it, LOL laugh


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Not so...I and many others are very happy for Krazy in his D.

We obect to his blanket characterizations of the choice many of us have made to recover our marriages, and his "opinion" that if we say we're happily recovered, we are dishonest.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



Neak's Story
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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
How was Krazy's wife supposed to erase the images he had of walking in on her and her lover? It would be interesting to hear him tell how she attempted to address that source of anger.

I don't think Krazy can ever be blamed for the resentment he feels. He tried everything to make this work so I don't blame him one bit. What happened was so egregious that he can't erase those visions from his head.

The only point I wanted to make is that his situation did not end over his WS�s reluctance to end her affair and try to repair the marriage. It ended because her adultery was so egregious that it would have taken a lobotomy to get over it. This was more than most people could take psychologically. I would not recover from such an affair either probably.

Sheesh! Why didn�t you people tell me I had been misspelling �egregious� all these years!?? Duh! doh2


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by OurHouse
[I still think that Schtoop's reasons for doubting the recovery of his marriage stand, based ONLY on what he posted here today. I added that caveat STRICTLY so people here on the board wouldn't take me to task for what I don't know. You know...admit the objection up front so your buyer can't throw it out there as an obstacle.

But again, you wouldn't know because you haven't bothered to read his story. Admitting that fact does not give credence to the opinion.

1. Using the word "bothered" implies I don't care enough to read his story.

Wrong

2. I actually have read some of this thread but haven't read most of it. Didn't want to misquote him or misread where he was.

I have credence to post an opinion at any time I choose to do so. I haven't seen anything yet in the TOS that prohibit that. I posted my caveat. My opinion still stands.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
[

PS, I don't think you've read Krazy's story. I don't think he totally blames his XWW and says it's all her fault. Go back and look at the thread I posted before.

He thought it was a character flaw in himself. Odd thing is many who are critical of his posting here were telling him the same things I'm saying, that sometimes the damage is too great.
That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. There are other mitigating circumstances in his case. He says as much more than once. So why, armed with that knowledge, would he assume that NO ONE can recover their M? Not everyone, in fact, only a small minority, have those kinds of emotional baggage. I am speaking from first-hand experience.


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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
According to what we understand about MB, what are the absolute deal breakers that indicate plan D?
There are no absolutes, there are typicals and usuallies.

As in Dr. Harley "Usually" advises divorce if "Blank"

But he never says "Always" divorce if "Blank", and neither do any MB teachings that I know of.

It all depends on the WS and the BS.

Last edited by Gack1; 03/10/10 11:32 AM.

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Bliss - cool

rotflmao


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
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Originally Posted by OurHouse
I have credence to post an opinion at any time I choose to do so. I haven't seen anything yet in the TOS that prohibit that. I posted my caveat. My opinion still stands.

And thank you for your opinion! smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Neak
Not so...I and many others are very happy for Krazy in his D.

We obect to his blanket characterizations of the choice many of us have made to recover our marriages, and his "opinion" that if we say we're happily recovered, we are dishonest.
Perfectly stated! clap


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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
He thought it was a character flaw in himself. Odd thing is many who are critical of his posting here were telling him the same things I'm saying, that sometimes the damage is too great.

EE, I agree that sometimes the damage is too great. Even Dr Harley states this. And this certainly is not a marriage at all costs site, I think we all agree on that. But to tell everyone that recovery is hopeless, that everyone should get a divorce just because YOUR OWN MARRIAGE did not make it is counterproductive. And is not the purpose of this forum.

People can and do recover their marriages every day on this forum and IRL. Newcomers need to understand that.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I would never presume to tell some of the divorced champions on here that they should have recovered their marriages just because I recovered mine.

Some of the finest posters on here are D'd, and stayed D'd even when their spouse wanted back.

Nuthin wrong with that!


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by _Larry_
onestly, there were other factors leading to the divorce, not just the adultery.

Does all that make me unqualified to offer help and advice here?

Of course it doesnt. But you don't come here and tell others there is no hope when there is and try to discourage them from trying. That is CRIMINAL, IMO. You try to help people save their marriages, even though yours didn't make it.

You don't try to spread the misery.

I can almost always count on Mel to see where I am going. Maybe the common Texas roots have something to do with it.

See, two things happened to me. My XWW had an adulterous affair and I learned a lot. I think I grew as a person. Ok, so my story ended in a negative.

I turned it into a positive.

And frankly, I have too many attaboys from all sorts of people along with very, very few negatives to feel as if I am either a second class citizen or someone who isn't helping.

See, I am focused on what I gained instead of what I lost.

Somehow that feels better to me.

Krazy, get over it, as the waywards like to say. You learned a lot. Life lessons can be negative or positive. Either way, if you try, you grow as a person. The things that happen to you, either self inflicted or imposed, become part of who you are.

And if you like who you are, it is a good thing.

Larry

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