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Great resources, I've been up most of the night/AM reading for hours now but I feel compelled to post this burning question.
I just confronted WW a few weeks ago after repeated evidence clearly demonstrating her EA with OM @ work. Classic denial and blow up. We decided to save the marriage of 25 + years and I'm not so sure it was just an EA. She claims it was, but at this point I'm not sure. Do I want to know?
On D-Day, I wrote & delivered letter to OM W outlining my suspicions of a PA. I made no allegations, just observations. He never came back to work and as far as I know there is NC now. I have had NC with OM W either.
I have had moderate success in reconciliation and have hopes to continue but my feelings of betrayal haunt me at the worst times (like tonight). Can I ever completely trust her? Will we ever completely recover?
Here�s the kicker; I�m clergy! I am usually the counselor, not the BS! I should have seen it coming (SHSIC). My questions are:
1). Should I press her for the sordid details of the EA? I�m curious as to what needs were being met by the OM.
2). Should I inquire to the OM W as to what she found out on D-Day?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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You have a right to these answers. It will haunt you and you will never have a fully recovered M without it.
You may not want to know every sordid detail, but knowing whether it was a PA or not is paramount. You should not trust her. Many (if not most) waywards implement "trickle truth." I can also say that all waywards lie. It would be normal for her as a WW to admit some facts (trickle truth), like the EA part, but lie about the PA part.
So basically you need this information as a base to starting to recover your marriage. I think you would be well served to click "notify" below and ask that your thread be moved to the "Surviving an Affair" section, where you will get tons of advice from folks that have been through this. I can say that it sounds like a lie detector test may be a viable option.
Welcome to MB - you have come to the right place.
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Well, DO you want to know? If so, then ask. In my sitch, I needed to know everything last disgusting detail. You may not want that much. You get to make that call.
Can you tell us more about the EA/PA? When did it begin? What evidence do you have? How do you know it isn't continuing?
The chance is very good that it was a PA. Steel yourself for that. Your WS may be trickle truthing you.
Notify the mods to move this to the Surviving an Affair forum.
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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Also, A's are common for clergy; we've seen many on this board. Also, I believe Dr. Harley mentions this in one of his books as well.
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shs, I am sorry you are here, but you are in the right place. Here is what it will take to recover your marriage: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts here as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks for the advice. I feel like really trusting her most days but there is that little "nagging" at the most inconvenient times that will always make me wonder. I guess it's back to the mine to dig out more truth (if there is more).
I still want to contact the OMW to see what she learned. What are your thoughts?
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Thanks for the advice. I feel like really trusting her most days but there is that little "nagging" at the most inconvenient times that will always make me wonder. I guess it's back to the mine to dig out more truth (if there is more). shs, part of the problem in your past marriage has been too much trust that led to very lax boundaries. Rather than going back to the pre-affair days that led to an affair, a better plan is limited trust along with transparency and GREAT boundaries. Dr. Harley wrote this: "I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe." ]I still want to contact the OMW to see what she learned. What are your thoughts? I think that would be an excellent idea. Additionally, are you double checking your wife to make sure the affair has not resumed?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Well, DO you want to know? If so, then ask. In my sitch, I needed to know everything last disgusting detail. You may not want that much. You get to make that call.
Can you tell us more about the EA/PA? When did it begin? What evidence do you have? How do you know it isn't continuing?
The chance is very good that it was a PA. Steel yourself for that. Your WS may be trickle truthing you. I hope that it was not a PA. I have "hard" undeniable evidence that I used to confront her on the D-Day. I believe it has gradually built up for a year or more. The OM is out of the picture as far as work goes. I don't know for sure about TM or other method's of contact. What is the best way to get the rest (if any) truth out of her?
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I don't know for sure about TM or other method's of contact. shs, are you snooping to ensure that contact has ended?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Thanks for the advice. I feel like really trusting her most days but there is that little "nagging" at the most inconvenient times that will always make me wonder. I guess it's back to the mine to dig out more truth (if there is more). shs, part of the problem in your past marriage has been too much trust that led to very lax boundaries. Rather than going back to the pre-affair days that led to an affair, a better plan is limited trust along with transparency and GREAT boundaries. Dr. Harley wrote this: "I don't trust my wife completely and she doesn't trust me, and that's why neither of us have ever had an affair. Lack of trust does not make spouses paranoid and miserable, it makes their marriages safe." ]I still want to contact the OMW to see what she learned. What are your thoughts? I think that would be an excellent idea. Additionally, are you double checking your wife to make sure the affair has not resumed? I have probably the best way to verify it isn't going on at work; but I hesitate to say how I have accomplished this because it could give my anonymity away. How do I go about getting the rest of the "story" out of her?
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Yep. I have a reliable set of eyes on the situation at work. Just don't know for sure about outside of work or on computer, cell phones, etc.
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shs, I would hand her this article:
Joseph's Letter
To Whomever,
I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly.
No one wants to be forced to 'look' at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn�t mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn�t he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I�m going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.
You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge.
You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you�re carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the 'STUFF' to figure out OUR reality. There isn�t really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don�t have.
Now let�s enter my reality. Let�s both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down.
To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever 'feel' complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are.
When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don�t worry about it, it�s not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what�s the difference, it�s not important.
Then later when I�m expected to understand the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it.
You wonder why I can�t just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.
So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don�t you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart.
I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.
So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together.
It doesn�t come from jealousy, it doesn�t come from spitefulness, and it doesn�t come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn�t it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn�t it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can�t and the reason I can�t is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yep. I have a reliable set of eyes on the situation at work. Just don't know for sure about outside of work or on computer, cell phones, etc. Are you checking them? You can install a keylogger on her computer and check cell phone bills. It is real important to check early and check often so you can catch relapses early.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In tears reading Joseph's letter - OMG, that's ME!! I'll use it for sure; please pray for us tonight!!
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In tears reading Joseph's letter - OMG, that's ME!! I'll use it for sure; please pray for us tonight!! Already am!  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In tears reading Joseph's letter - OMG, that's ME!! I'll use it for sure; please pray for us tonight!! Already am! I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13 Thank you so very much. We stayed up till 4AM! Many tears, hugs, lots of pain. How can this be beneficial when it hurts so much? She told me what I needed to know. Her interaction with OM was a bit more than EA. It had progressed to hand holding and passionate kissing. How am I to get these images out of my mind? I used the word �repulsive� in the conversation last night and it broke her down completely. She withdrew totally and I had to explain that the repulsive part was the images of her with him, not just her. My lack of supplying her EN led to her vulnerability. The OM took advantage of her vulnerability. She admitted it was her decision to allow his advances and she takes full responsibility for what happened. I�m so ready to have this behind us. I as the �pastor� went into � hyper fix it mode� and rushed through the hurt and put a band-aid on it to make the outward appearance look like all is OK when I was hemorrhaging inside. I have forgiven her. I love her deeply. How can I put this behind so that we can move back into the romantic intimate relationship God wants for us and I desperately need? Every time I touch her my mind asks is this how he touched her. As my lips embrace hers I imagine the two of them together � it is driving me CRAZY! Help.
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In tears reading Joseph's letter - OMG, that's ME!! I'll use it for sure; please pray for us tonight!! Already am! I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13 Thank you so very much. We stayed up till 4AM! Many tears, hugs, lots of pain. How can this be beneficial when it hurts so much? She told me what I needed to know. Her interaction with OM was a bit more than EA. It had progressed to hand holding and passionate kissing. How am I to get these images out of my mind? I used the word �repulsive� in the conversation last night and it broke her down completely. She withdrew totally and I had to explain that the repulsive part was the images of her with him, not just her. My lack of supplying her EN led to her vulnerability. The OM took advantage of her vulnerability. She admitted it was her decision to allow his advances and she takes full responsibility for what happened. I�m so ready to have this behind us. I as the �pastor� went into � hyper fix it mode� and rushed through the hurt and put a band-aid on it to make the outward appearance look like all is OK when I was hemorrhaging inside. I have forgiven her. I love her deeply. How can I put this behind so that we can move back into the romantic intimate relationship God wants for us and I desperately need? Every time I touch her my mind asks is this how he touched her. As my lips embrace hers I imagine the two of them together � it is driving me CRAZY! Help. You're reacting like a normal BS. We all want to rush things to get past the hurt. Unfortunately, healing is going to take time. I'm 13 months into this and only for the past few weeks have I not felt the urge to discuss or analyze my H's A. Time. That's going to be your enemy and your friend. Your enemy at first because it won't seem to go fast enough. Eventually you will be able to look back and realize that time has passed and you are healing. Do the work on this site. Together.  shsic10
D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!
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I have forgiven her. I love her deeply. How can I put this behind so that we can move back into the romantic intimate relationship God wants for us and I desperately need? Every time I touch her my mind asks is this how he touched her. As my lips embrace hers I imagine the two of them together � it is driving me CRAZY! Help. Shs, you did great!! I know it hurts, but dishonesty about the affair would hurt worse. It would be a wall between you that would prevent trust from building. The damage from having secrecy would far outstrip the damage from those images that will fade with time. I would also like to refer you to this outstanding article about forgiveness by Dr Harley. In it, he outlines the conditions under which forgiveness should be given. His reasoning is outstanding: And, as you have noticed, when you don't forgive someone, it can "eat you up." It's not healthy to keep resentment bottled up inside of you.
The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.
First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.
But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example.
Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful.
It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.
I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.
As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[Thank you so very much. We stayed up till 4AM! Many tears, hugs, lots of pain. How can this be beneficial when it hurts so much? Just ask yourself how can a ROOT CANAL be beneficial when it hurts so much?! 
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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All of you are SO wonderful. I am praying and thanking God for directing me to this site and your warm compassion. I couldn't have asked for anything better!
I'm in tears as I'm writing this with the hurt of the situation fresh in my heart, yet yearning for reconcilliation. I need a fresh dose of God's amazing grace and you all are being used by HIM in a extraordinary way - may God bless you richly! THANK YOU!!
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