Oh yea, and one more thing. Most of us, men and women, are obsessed to one degree or the other about sex. It is nature's way of insuring the survival of the race. But the rules become so varied because there are so many people, who in turn make up their own rules.

Larry

Its really simple W02 Why you did it but thier is still no excuse unless you allow one for yourself.

Hubby is not responsible for how you feel about yourself but you gave him that place. He allready had issues with cheating wives and brought that fear into his marriage with you. Ever hear the statement ,"there is nothing to fear but fear itself?"

So you let hubbys irrational fear that he would be cheated on again and the coldness in which he treated you drive you into a rebeliuos act that he was afraid of. A "self-fufilling Phrophecy" sort of thing.

Heres the thing about fear. We get enamored by the things that we fear. We will be slaves to it and it can control us. We become obsessed. It becomes something we live in instead of a guidance system that protects us.

You put your confidence in being loved and worthy of it in the hands of someone who didn't have the tools to give it to you.


Confidance is not built by throwing a child out of the boat to teach them to swim. It isn't beaten into you.

After some time spent with a guy who lived like you were a cheater. You acted like the kid who was allways called a thief. He stole out of anger and frustration.

So thats why. Can you forgive yourself now and your husband for not being the perfect mate without introspection?



Once a cheater allways a cheater? LOL. Yah. So I guess I should be pee4ing my pants still cuz i did when I was a child...

Some of my questioning is that I want to know why and Hubby wants to know why and I really want to tell him something more than just I don't really know why I did this and there isn't an excuse. I don't want an excuse, I want a why. How can I get him to understand some of these things and how can I bring it up to the MC? (sorry about that horrible sentence, it's how it how it would have come out had I been actually talking)

Ahhh, good. What is the MC like? Does he seem to understand Harley methods? How you "Style" what you want to say with the MC depends on the "Style" of the therapist.

Larry

He seems to. I whipped out my "Surviving an Affair" book and he seemed familar with it, and the ENs as well. ...but he seems to prefer the author of "The Five Love Languages". He is quite easy to talk to, even though my face just burns trying to.

He showed us a video of this comedian who was describing the way men and women's brains work...Hubby got it right away and found it quite humourous as well did I...This guy, who I didn't catch his name was saying that men keep things in boxes in their brains and the boxes never touch and if the box is closed they aren't thinking about that particular thing and men have an empty box and can think about nothing. Women brain's however are made of wire and EVERYTHING connects and women are constantly thinking.

I get that, and now I have a new way that I can ask Hubby what he's thinking about. I can ask him what box he's in. He was always put off by the old "what are you thinking" as I think a lot of men seem to be.

Hubby seems to like the MC.

On a side note Hubby has a new problem and we think it is the meds he is on and not the diabetes itself. You know what his doctor said to me and I just felt about 2 inches high after she was done?? And well what she said may be true, but I still felt bad. She said, sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage. It felt like a blow to me. SF is one of my top 5 ENs, all it did was enforce Hubby's attitude on that area. I am afraid to bring that up at the MC at all. Hubby complained a little bit about the problem, but the next day blew it off as nothing. If he's having this problem and the Doc doesn't think it's valid, he's never going to even try to ....is sex really not that important? Any time I have the courage to talk about it to a doc, they just confirm Hubby's point of view and not mine. Is it weird that SF is one of my ENs? I just really feel like crying, if he has this problem I am just never going to ask for it again, I just can't handle the rejection. Hubby is an odd man, when that goes away, so does his desire.

02,

When they say that sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage, I can say that I understand what they might mean.

My husband had prostate cancer - diagnosed about 2 or 3 weeks after d-day.

What a complete disaster this was to our marriage. The affair, and then the thought that I might never be able to have the chance to erase the memory or even compete with the memory of the OW - because he would have surgery within just a few short weeks........and the very real possibility of NO SEX FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

I know the very real meaning of the concept that sex is not the most important thing in a marriage.

We had no sex, nothing, for well over a year.

He couldn't. And when we tried - to see what might have recovered - well, he was afraid, his dignity was crushed, and he was psychologically impacted by this entire experience.

Things were not what they used to be.

Add to this, his affair, and the sense within him that this whole cancer thing was his "karma".



We have crawled out of this hole. It has taken several years, but he is actually completely functional again and yes, we are once again able to have SF. But is it really the most important thing in our marriage? Prior to his affair, he might have ranked it pretty high.

Now????

Nope. He ranks other things higher, because this whole event has taught him that the intimacy in our relationship is more important, and that he craves our experiences together more - and the SF is a RESULT of that intimacy - not the beginning of it.

Another thing your hubby may be looking at is that his weight and health may be affecting his performance??? At least, this should be considered. Additionally, you might consider that your affairs impact his confidence, and his willingness to reach out to you and bring down his walls.

Sorry, but that's just the truth of it. Not to mention his previous marital experiences. But it might be changing, if the MC gets into this area with you two. He might not like the word "compromise", but ultimately the MC will get him to that word.

SB

Exactly my opinion on sex in a marriage.

Outside of marriage and in an "in-love honeymoon" type enviroment their is still some issues where ppl are using sex for emotional connection or bonding. When real life comes in and commitment for life takes its seriuos place in our emotions and relationships we see things differently and act accordingly.

You really in my opinion O2 a need for intimacy and that is what is missing, not just sex for sexs sake.

Ask yourself this question. Did you want to get married just to have sex all the time? I bet not. Whats great about you guys getting help is that when the intimacy things get handeled Sex will be even better. It will be deeper and more meaningful when the walls come down and he gives himself to you willing to please his preciuos bride.

Not to be crude but your toes will curl and I bet he will be proud to be in charge and push your buttons.

Somewhere in the bible it says.. "The marriage bed is undefiled" To me it meant there is no shame in pleasing your mate.

Did that make sense to you SB and Larry?

Perfect sense.

02

My husband's affair was "sex for the sake of sex". His explanation, not mine.

He nuked our marriage, our relationship, our lives, for sexual experience that was "different", he said...he wanted something "different" after having been married so long.

He also had this issue with porn, which we both agree fed this desire for sex with another person. When the opportunity knocked, in the form of OW, he took it. Case closed.


It wasn't quite so complicated on the surface. Underneath, now, you KNOW there is a lot going on!


You seek to answer the question, "Why did I do this?" for yourself, and also for your husband.


This is a noble quest. An honorable one as well, and the fact that you are here and have made the gains you have made speak volumes for you.


The "why" of this is partially answered in a philosophical arena. I have a book recommendation for you, because the book makes things much easier to understand. The book is "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.

It can be found in either the business management section or the self-improvement section of bookstores, or online.

It's grounded in a philosophical approach to thought processes. Here goes:

We operate on momentary decisions. These decisions take place so quickly that those moments CAN be missed, but actually once they are pointed out to us we become quite aware of them as we live them in our lives. Prior to them being pointed out, however, we are pretty much blind to them.

This principal is basically how we operate under "self-deception". Because we are unaware of these moments, we can go through life justifying bad behavior and bad decisions because we have deceived ourselves that there are reasons and justifications for our behavior. We are able to explain to ourselves why we are behaving in a certain way, and we are able to nicely shift the blame to other people - and NOT EVEN REALIZE IT.

We can deceive ourselves.

BUT!
Once we are aware of the fact that we should NOT be doing something, that is no longer "self-deception". Because you cannot deceive someone if they are AWARE of it. At the point of the awareness - that very moment you are AWARE of the fact that you are doing wrong

it becomes SELF-BETRAYAL.

And THAT, wife_02, is what you did.

You betrayed YOURSELF first, when you had your affair.

Your own words in your posts show you that - look at them.

You speak of the horror at your own behavior, how you wish you could take it back, stop yourself, you cannot believe that you did this, how you thought you never would have done anything this horrible....all of it....and yet, you betrayed that very spirit and knowledge within YOU that served to tell you

DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR.

You betrayed yourself first.

Self-betrayal occurs when you go against that voice within you that tells you that you should be doing something RIGHT for someone else, and you go against that voice.

Immediately upon going against that voice, the VERY NEXT THING YOU HEAR?

You will hear:
Justifications as to why you should go ahead and do it, why you CAN do it, and blameshifting as to why the person being hurt by your behavior DESERVES to be hurt.


Read the book. It is based on a businessman. However, if you think about your affair behavior - you can easily see how this thinking translates to bad decisions anywhere in life.

And from that moment on, you will fully understand why I keep saying you have to stop shifting the blame before you can progress. Why there is no external control. And why you are in control of any and all changes in your life.


Because this concept of self-betrayal will CHANGE YOUR DESTINY.

Read the book.


SB

This whole post 02 ..was awesome..

It doesn't matter that you felt so bad and reacted to circumstances in your marriage that were hurting you. What matters is you went into self-destruct mode. First in your mind and then in yur decisions

You know that it doesn't have to be that way and you have proven it over and over here because you are searching and learning.

read


the


book

Well, his weight gain could also be a factor. So he has all this stuff floating around in his head as well, plus other medical things.

I agree with SSO since he asked.

Larry

02

Yea, read the book. I am not sure which one SB is talking about, but whatever she said, do it. I trust SB.


See, as you trudge through the minefield of self examination and dealing with a hubby who doesn't trust anyone, for good reason, you gotta get all the help you can get and you have to be patient with the time it takes to do the job. After all, it took decades for to build yourself to this point. So don't worry about the months it is going to take for you to get a new lease on life based on the education you get in relationships and all the assorted crap that goes with it.

Larry

Wow, SB, that was an amazing post!

I betrayed myself...you know that makes a lot of sense, I went against everything I knew was right and just did something so wrong. I will not say I had an affair. I cheated, I did something dirty. You might see me type "As" but I simply do that as a short cut. I think the word "Affair" glorifies and romantisises it somehow.

But with the SF, I want the kind that comes from deep intimacy, a closeness that can't be explain with mere words.

Can a person have an issue with porn if they don't use it for the intended use? Can it damage a persons view on sex? Hubby was exposed to it accidentally at a VERY young age. Later on he worked as a bouncer at a strip joint and was around half naked women, and most of them were usually hugging on him and what-not. Hubby has always said the sight of a naked women "does nothing for him".

I will read the book.

Yes, it is the intimacy that is missing. I am really looking forward to the end result, and we both can have a deep intimate, close, and loving relationship that we both want. I am looking forward to the SF that will result from such intimacy...right now, I'm sorry to say this, but it's just to much work. I want it to come naturally and just flow like I think it should. There is so much potential for such a great relationship here... (shame on my mother for telling me I married the wrong man!) It's just going to take a lot of work.


On another note, Hubby said he noticed the change in ::ahem:: performance right after he started taking meds. He has had some minor issues due to his weight, but nothing like what's been going on. In my personal opinion, I have always thought sex was important...but I have always thought that intimacy was #1. I feel that way more now than I ever have. I think that's what I have always been after and my methods of trying to get it are just well, messed up and I'm not referring to the cheating. That to me was something else.

Hubby and I are going to get away for the day without the children and I am so excited!! We are going to a swap meet to buy performance parts for his car (76 chevelle. But, how do I get him to not feel guilty about leaving the children behind with a sitter. He feels like they are missing out on an opp. for family time, something that we don't get to do often. (By that I mean going out of town for a trip). I think the children would be bored, I think it would be hard to entertain them and hard to confine the 2 yr old boy of ours to a stroller. We all will be going to one in July called Super Chevy. A big outside thing. A lot easier to deal with kids outside and there will be entertainment such as drag races and jet cars. It's just idk, does he dread spending time with me and uses the kids as a distraction? I will be away from my computer over the weekend so feel free to post and I will get back to ya'll on Mon. (A family trip btw to the in-laws!!)

02

Well now isn't this interesting:


In between marriages, I hung around a strip club for entertainment. I had a lifetime membership I purchased to entertain out of country types who were coming by my place to buy stuff my company made. They all wanted to go to a strip club, so it was cheaper to get the membership. Most of them were Asians and thet ALL wanted to go see naked blonds.

AND, believe it or not, the joint had some of the best food in town, it was a high end low life place, if you get my drift. Anyway, I ate the noon buffet for free a couple of times a week. The club was making megabucks and they had hired a major chef to run the kitchen. I kid you not, the food was out of sight. So were the females.

A strip club is based on women who are good at manipulating males for money. Simply put, that is the culture. And males make jacka@@ess out of themselves on a routine basis. After a while you sorta get used to naked flesh and while you still look, sorta, it just isn't the same as when you expect to, uh, get up close and comfortable with said naked flesh. I never had that expectation even one time with any of them, uh, except one.

I didn't buy what they were selling, which is an illusion. But the customers I brought in indulged their fantasies. So after a while, I became accepted for what I was. When I ate at the buffet, I was often joined by strip workers who were not trolling. Some of the conversations among them I heard were interesting, to say the least.

A bouncer probably knows even more than I do about the culture.

Very interesting and very revealing of your husband. One thing he may know is that even those strippers often had a boy friend or husband they were loyal to, and quite often, the BF was an abuser. Most of the husbands were ok, so it appeared. At the same time, your hubbies opinions are going to be somewhat slanted depending on the type of club where he worked and for how long.

Larry

Well Larry
Yes I can appreciate your point of view. For some reason there was a time when a bunch of the guys I knew and worked with in, lets say,"the field of trade" I was working in looked up to me to find a good "Strip joint" to go to on a Fri night. Its what the group wanted to do and so we visited some in the cities we were in at the time. I really didn't care about going cuz it is an illusion.

I was never the type to look at pin-up girls and be able to consistently drool over them without realizing how dangerous the game they were playing with thierselves. I know some could compartementalize thier emotions and separate at least in thier mind separate what they did as a "profession" from what they must feel in the ways of humility and personal modesty and made a trade off. I ussually just looked at the pin-up and exibition types as victims of thier own fears and insecuritys and the "ahem" manly culture that treats them as objects and possessions.

It is dangerous to feel sorry for them and again men fall into the very mindset that drives the culture when they do. The belief that men can save them and that women are there to serve thier ego.

Its allways the easy way out too. Men are stimulated by what they see and women from the aspects of the relationship. Men get to see and fantasize without having to think or give care for these girls and the girls get to have total control and can litterally count,$ on what they get out of it. That is bassically what is at the heart of it and whithin it we have people who have accepted it as a way of life, by choice, victimization, or a confusing combination of both. The sexual part of it to me could be compared to scratching a really heavy itch if you take all of the other crap we assoiciate sex itself out of it. There ussualy was no tenderness in it. I consider myself blessed, not because I am better than these ppl and was born that way, but because I have been taught to live as someone who did not decieve himself and that I have in the past but life is for learning.

For as many of these girls as exist they all have their own storys and of course there are no two storys alike. Some of them are making money working through colledge and somehow they think they are making a noble sacrifice. Some are just lazy and admit it. Some play the drama queens that were victims. All of them have a choice at least in thier minds to have a different profession and for the mentally ill ones we have the law to protect them if the law plays fair. It was designed to protect them and if they could only embrace that they could start to think.

Its like all of the busnesses that play to mans vanity. FRom marriying some guy because he has money or position or will take all responsiblity for thier actions, women can sell thier right to be accountable just like men do. Ever notice that prostitution, stipper bars and drugs are allways more affluent in military towns? The fear of death and not getting our share is a primary driving force in ppl. A Girl has to eat right? And a guy has needs right? Yeah well justification...

I could not separate casual sex from relationships and it caused me a real problem when I was younger. It was a good thing but i didn't realize it then. I also didn't pick the right friends but welcome to the club right? When my friends were telling me they had a chance to pick up this hot chick at a bar and she would come sit at the table with us I could sense what they were about it allways struck me funny. Some were just bitter and selfish and playing the game that they thought they were winning as they laughed and got drunk enough to leave with the guy. Some seemed scared and looked to me as the guys said wierd stuff and seemed to be asking me if they were gonna be alright with this guy. All I could do was assure that all they were in it for was the sex and that they were not axe murders. Even if it meant that I betrayed my buddy when he had a particular women who seemed to belive whatever line he was sellin her and she was doomed to being a sucker and a victim. These women were willing victims and had allready sold themselves some fantasy.

I remember one time in particular but it wasn't the only time that this type of situation happened to me.

I went to a strip bar with some guys and there was a bar we all sat at. The girl who did the main show danced on the bar in front of us and it was a great show. She paid particular attention to me and of course all the guys gave me crap about it in a joking way. After the show she approached me and asked me if I wanted to play a game of pool. I was flattered but not because I thought she wanted me LOL. I knew she knew I was safe. I played a couple games of pool with her while she looked over my shoulder and was watching some rowdy guys at the bar. We both knew what her interest was with me. In the act I was a prop. A way for the other guys to fantasize and get there jollies without her getting someone too excited that she would have to "handle" later. At the pool table I was the rough looking guy that had a crew with him that kept away the weirdos.

What did I get out of it? My protecter ego was puffed up. I was still a victim of my own vanity LOL. Ever notice the State police hanging around those joints? They are present to protect the people and the bussiness both. I know that thier are a few cops who fall in love with the idea that they can "save" those women and really they are in love with the idea of it. I am sure there are success storys but it would have to do with both of them and the saving part would eventually have to be replaced if both of them were to respect each other. Nobody can "save" somebody that doesn't want to be saved. Its still about choices. If someone makes good choices they deserve the credit and reminding someone of thier failures is like slavery and a control tactic.
Personnally although I have empathy for those girls I have more for the ones who when given a chance would work at two jobs in convienience stores as they attended colledge to improve thier life. The flesh trade is just an easy way out. A mistake that can be corrected. A sickness relative to all mankind and by choice can be avoided and should be fought against whenever it can be. But I am not a 13 year old girl sold into it as a child from another country nor was I brought up in a military town poor and next to a strip bar. Those ppl need to eat and sleep and some have fallen into that lifestyle. Some fight thier way out.

W02,
Your husband has a relationship with the world and a past that has molded his outlook on his marriage. Its too bad that when his attitude towards you had driven you to a place in your mind that you felt like cheating that you didn't look at him and say, "look, I can't take the way you treat me, I wont live like this and if you wont go to counselling I am going to leave" Then if he still insisted to live and think the way he was you could have left and waited for him to change while you did a plan B. You didn't know how at the time nor did you have MB to help you during that time. Its to bad you cheated and you are here knowing it was wrong and are willing to again sacrifice yourself for your marriage relationship. You are willing to learn and thats what he would need to do also. He would need to see what he needs to do to restore a loving relationship with you. I wonder if he is willing to see his part in creating his own self-fufilling phrophecy when he treated you like a cheater before you cheated as you have admitted your part of losing your mind when you did the deeds. I guess he could stay safe in his world of how all women cheat and life is not fair.. boo-hoo. I wonder if he could forgive himself for it.

Don't get me wrong Vets, I feel for this man. I know she could have made other choices than cheat on him with men who fiegned concern for her on the net. I just wonder how this should be handled. How many years does she wait untill her Husband realizes he needs help and that if he stays this way he will only continue in this spiral of looking for negativity and failure in everyone he knows and creating it in his own world. Will he live as the cash cow for another woman when she leaves him? Or will he be a lonely old guy without taking a chance while he counts on the bad things life has handed him as being the truth?

I guess its about what he is wiling to fight for. If he can be inspired to change his relationship with his wife by changing his outlook and be willing to seek knowledge or dream outside of his experiances I believe he will not only recover his marriage, but his life. He owes the world nothing and as far as I know is not married to it. Does he want to fight to rise above what the world has handed him and put the past behind to share a life with this woman that has conquered the slime the world offers? I bet he know hes needs help but is to proud to admit it and somehow is waiting for the world to change before he changes his own personal world with his wife. Hes scared and hurt and afraid and needs hope.

What can you do W02 to help him is the question. You have the advantage here to love him anyways without losing one bit of self-respect as you put the past behind and fight the good fight of faith. Dare to visualize, dream and change your thoughts and faith for your marriage.

You were right, it doesn't have to feel this way...

I'm not really sure how to respond to that SSO...that is a lot to take in...


The strip joint he worked in was not very um "classy". It was not the worst one in town, but, not the best. I remember going in there and all the girls "just loved hubby to death" But none tried to date him. They felt sort of protective of him...I remember I was walking past his work (he worked at a feed store so it wasn't uncommon to see him outside, this was not long after we met) to go to the store and he looked up from this car with either one or two girls and he looked up and waved...well, I came back and he was still talking to them and he smiled and waved at me again...and he later that day told me that they wanted to know if I was stalking him. They acted like he was a big brother to them.

We had taken the children to the park one day and while they where playing he starts to flip these tiny stones at me in a playful way (he wasn't angry or trying to hurt me), I asked him to stop, but he continues...yes, I was trying to flip them back but I couldn't figure out how to do it...but what I am getting at is I hate this childish behavior and I want to be treated like a grown women and be treated with some dignity and not like how one would act as though playing like a child. I like him to be playful, but not revert into child like behavior. Am I wrong here? He even hit my tooth...he could have injured me could he not? I just don't know how to deal with this sometimes. I brought this up to the MC and he starts talking about the Three Stooges. I am sitting there with this ? over my head trying to figure out what's going on here. (On the upside he was trying to tell him that he might have to do things that he might not want to... compromise ...but he didn't actually use the word though. He was trying to get him to understand how important vow re-newal was to me, hubby won't do it though. If Hubby DOES NOT want to do something, he WON'T do it. It's hard to think of the things he just WON'T do...there are quite a few of them and it usually has to do with selflessness on his part involving me somehow.)

I just wanted a husband who treated me with dignity, shared intimacy with, and loves me with a deep passion( doesn't have to be wild, I prefer quiet passion), have I just simply watched too many movies. Is this even realistic for me and Hubby? Even sometime off in the future?

I saw this old couple the other day in the store holding hands and I thought "Well, that certainly won't be us at 70+". I'd like it to be, but I feel like I am wanting something that he either doesn't want to give or is just incapable of giving. I feel that I have ruined my chances at having this deep intimacy that I crave from him. i'm not even sure if I even had any chances of that even before I cheated. He had this huge brick wall around him after we married that had security that tighter Ft.Knox or the White House. Nothing was getting in. NOTHING! I don't know if he's just mellowed his grip on the wall or what, but there are a few holes in it now. Maybe it's simply he's "grown-up" some, but there is a change in him and I can't put my finger on it.

I do think he "likes" wallowing in the "poor me, all women cheat on poor ol me, all women are a like, boo-hoo" mentality and it used to be a lot worse. He was like that within 1 year and a half into the marriage (the others left him at a year and a half). Since we are WAAAAYYY past the year and a half mark, he told me not too long ago that he was just waiting for me to leave "because that's what they all do"(after they cheat) Like, he bracing himself for impact. No matter how much I tell him I'm not leaving him, he doesn't beleive me. I feel like I spend the majority of the time defending myself in someway.

Its gonna take time W02, Itsalso gonna take a commitment from him to put the past behind and live in that hope you both should have for your marriage.

I can guarantee that if he wanted to find someone negative to build another negative relationship based on protecting his past experiances and the right he has to be ticked about it...that he can find someone who will jump on the bandwagon with him.


I feel like I am beating him up and I hate that. I am hoping he can get out of his own head alittle and get some MB help