I don't really know what to do. I feel like I ruined everything. I was 2 yrs into my marriage and very unhappy. My hubby was very distant, refusing sex at every turn, refusing to kiss, and basiclly refusing me any emotional ...anything! I was at the end of my rope! It felt like we had become roommates. We had finally gotten a computer and I discovered chatrooms, then I discovered how nice people can be when trying to get sex from woman in my position. I realize that it was wrong for me to do what I did and wish I could go back and just not do that. Well, it all went downhill from there and I had had sex with 6 other men, which just made me feel even worse because each consecutive guy never wanted to see me again.
I eventually confessed to my husband, but once he realized what I was beginning to confess to it turned from my willing confession, to a frighteningly forced confession. I have never cried so hard in my life for him to forgive me and not to leave me. He left for a short time that night, and came back and initiated sex?!? I thought he would never touch me again! There where several ocasions after that he did that and it was just so angry.
Over the past few years since it's gotten better, but I just don't feel he really loves me anymore. I feel like he thinks I deserve whatever he gives, he punished me on a regular basis and I punished myself all the time. It took years before I could forgive myself and he's trying to forget. His hurtful comments are less and less. He used to called me a whore or somehow refered to me in a derogotory manor. I think it has impacted our sex life because I had always asked for sex and always been refused. He still thinks of me as a sex-crazed induvidual and I feel so tarnished. I think of renewing our vows sometimes, but then I think that's what couples do when one of the spouses doesn't ruin everything by being well a slut( I'm sorry if I seem so blunt, but I'm thinking of my situation, not anyone elses). I struggle with the "how can I hate the very thing that I did" a lot. And how does he feel? He was married twice before me and both of those ex's cheated on him. He's not a bad person, he's really a nice guy.
It's just that he didn't understand the emotional part of this whole marriage thing. He thinks I need to accept that he won't kiss me ( the sex issue has gotten somewhat better though), and every other "mean" thing he does. Can someone help?

Let me start by saying I am not trying to judge your WW behavior one way or another. My Dh was a W and I LOVE him so I am not about to make judgemnets about whether Waywards are good or bad people.
That being said, I have a couple of comments on your post.


Were you expecting to give a quite confession and have your BH listen patiantly until you have completed ripping his heart out ? His response sounds pretty normal and mild to me.



I am assuming that once they became a WW is when they also became an Ex. So I guess my first question is why did he decide to continue to R with you when the other 2 M's broke for the same causes.

Do you have kids together?
Knowing that previous A
s did not help the previous ( I am assuming troubled ) M what made you think that an A would help solve your problems.

Yes we have kids....I think that is the only reason he stayed then. I really didn't think the A's would help anything. At the time I guess I was so emotionally depleted that I just ...I don't know what I was thinking, I just know that I was hurt and angry with him. This happened 5 years ago and I have grown up considerably since then.
I didn't know how he would react with the confession, it's just with his reaction I was expecting to be beaten within an inch of my life and I was just in a pile on the floor trying to block my face so he couldn't hit me there. But, to my surprise he never did hit me. I just wasn't expecting THAT. Yelling, yes, just not so physically ...I'm not sure if overbearing is the right word or not, but I was SCARED to death of him.
But, how can this be fixed? He just doesn't really act like he loves me, but he really didn't act head over heels after we got married.

I don't really know what to do. I feel like I ruined everything.
Not everything, but you've done a pretty good job of getting things pretty messed up.

I was 2 yrs into my marriage and very unhappy. Attempt at justification. This is no excuse for an affair.

My hubby was very distant, refusing sex at every turn, refusing to kiss, and basiclly refusing me any emotional ...anything! This sentence looks to be a form of extreme language - the likelihood he was refusing ALL forms of affection is unlikely. Therefore, you are rewriting history here, and the facts are most likely less severe in real life than you are coloring them here. Put things into perspective, and look at them in reality - again, this extreme type of language is still attempting to justify your behavior.

I was at the end of my rope! It felt like we had become roommates. Do you see the repetition? Still, you are justifying the affair here - giving us reasons why you think what you did was reasonable.

It WASN'T a solution, or a reasonable behavior. You need to see that, and understand that these "reasons" are not valid.

We had finally gotten a computer and I discovered chatrooms, then I discovered how nice people can be when trying to get sex from woman in my position. They weren't "nice". They were using you. And you recognized that, and went along with it. SIX TIMES.

I realize that it was wrong for me to do what I did and wish I could go back and just not do that. Well, it all went downhill from there and I had had sex with 6 other men, which just made me feel even worse because each consecutive guy never wanted to see me again. At which point did you see this? The question is serious, because if it was after OM number one, or two, or three...then the question should be, "Why didn't you stop then?" Why did it take six men, or was the truth really that you were not in control of your decision making, or was there something else going on leading you to make these decisions? This is NOT something that your husband's behavior led you to. This is YOUR decision making, not your husband's.


I eventually confessed to my husband, but once he realized what I was beginning to confess to it turned from my willing confession, to a frighteningly forced confession. What I see here is that you view your husband's questions regarding your affairs, and your very poor choice-making and risky behavior as a "forced confession". This would tell me that you were not comfortable telling the whole truth about what you did, and not ready to own it all. That's not unusual - but let's talk the truth here. Your husband's anger is not surprising, is it? And he has a right to the truth of his life, which is to know the exact truth of your sexual exploits outside the marriage - it affects his life - and your full and complete confession is owed to your husband. Your distaste for that, and sense of feeling forced, is the price you must pay.


I have never cried so hard in my life for him to forgive me and not to leave me. He left for a short time that night, and came back and initiated sex?!? Not unusual - he felt the need to reclaim his territory, perhaps, or maybe to understand himself and his feelings, or something else. There are many reasons this happens.


I thought he would never touch me again! There where several ocasions after that he did that and it was just so angry. The feelings a BS goes through during SF after an affair can run from anger to sadness to desperation to....you name it. This isn't a surprise.


Over the past few years since it's gotten better, but I just don't feel he really loves me anymore. You CAN get help with this here at MB. Do the EN questionnaire, and start filling his EN, and get on the track of doing the things that get you two together for 15 hours a week for the quality time you need as a couple.

I feel like he thinks I deserve whatever he gives, he punished me on a regular basis and I punished myself all the time. It took years before I could forgive myself and he's trying to forget. It takes about two years on average - after the wayward spouse begins to really work at a proper marital recovery - to truly see the marriage come back on track after an affair is revealed to a betrayed spouse. So the fact that it has taken "years" isn't unusual. You two need to do some work, and maybe things could get much better.


His hurtful comments are less and less. He used to called me a [censored] or somehow refered to me in a derogotory manor. He was angry. This isn't justified by any means - although it isn't unusual for namecalling and lovebusting to happen after an affair. You two can work on this - look at the MB program for lovebusting, fix YOURS, and watch his behavior change.

I think it has impacted our sex life because I had always asked for sex and always been refused. Do you see your extreme language here? ALWAYS asked,,,,,ALWAYS been refused. That means NEVER ONE TIME did he ask for sex, and NEVER ONE TIME did he take you up on an offer. Hard to believe.


He still thinks of me as a sex-crazed induvidual and I feel so tarnished. You two need to talk about this - maybe YOU think that is what he thinks. You feel tarnished, but maybe there are things you can do in his eyes to rehabilitate your image. The MB plan does offer ideas - look at them and DO THEM.



I think of renewing our vows sometimes, but then I think that's what couples do when one of the spouses doesn't ruin everything by being well a slut( I'm sorry if I seem so blunt, but I'm thinking of my situation, not anyone elses). Some couples renew vows to give one another a chance to start over with a clean slate - to just start the marriage fresh. My H and I did this, so he could show me that he did mean our vows, in spite of his affair. It helped me in my recovery from the affair. You might try offering your H this ceremony - you might be surprised at his response. And no, it does not help to go around calling yourself names. If you do not believe in your own ability to change, how can you convince him you can?


I struggle with the "how can I hate the very thing that I did" a lot. You can hate the very thing you did because you know it to be the most despicable act someone can perpetrate. You know, because you did it, and you know because you have experienced it in the worst possible way - you used this weapon to hurt the one you love. So you CAN hate infidelity - because you know the darkness from which it emerges, and you know where it can take a person.


And how does he feel? He was married twice before me and both of those ex's cheated on him. He's not a bad person, he's really a nice guy. The fact that you ask this question shows you are on the road to understanding. You still need to work, though, because there are things you haven't figured out yet. Like your next statement. You come close to it, then you pull back!!!


It's just that he didn't understand the emotional part of this whole marriage thing.
This statement is very telling. You seem to think that your husband didn't understand the emotional part of the marriage thing. YOU DIDN'T. Instead of going outside the marriage to get your emotional needs met, you had another choice. You made the wrong choice! And you did it six times over before you figured it out. The plan is not working if you keep doing the wrong thing over and over, then wait for years before you confess.

You fixed NOTHING with your affairs.

And now, you are still facing the same problems, only compounded with the infidelity.


And still looking to your husband's problems with emotional difficulties as the "issue".


You have it wrong.

The "issue" is not what you think it is.


He thinks I need to accept that he won't kiss me ( the sex issue has gotten somewhat better though), and every other "mean" thing he does. Again, it isn't your husband being "mean".



Read the MB concepts.

Look at the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Fill it out for yourself, and if your H won't fill one out, you fill one out as though you were him. Then, spend at least three weeks filling his top three needs as you have identified them.


Spend time with him - try for 15 hours per week.

Practice openness and honesty with him.

Meet HIS sexual needs, his way, for awhile. See if this changes his behavior to meeting yours.


And after three weeks doing things the MB way, see if things are more on track - and in the meanwhile, read the threads here to learn why I say you have much to learn. Learn it.

I'm on your side, even though I gave you some 2X4's. You sound like you are on the road, but you need a MAP.
Schoolbus

Can someone help?

Did you get extensively tested for STD's and HIV?

If I were your BH, I wouldn't go near you with a ten foot pole until that happened and I saw the written results.

All Blesings,
Jerry

Wow...
Well, with the kissing he might kiss me once every 6 months. He very rarely kisses me during sex. That happens maybe once a year. He says he does not like kissing. I truly do not understand this. It was like this before the A's.
We went 6 months without sex, just constantly refused me. this was before the A's though.
I really feel he doesn't get what I need. I more than likely do not get what he need either.

He often said how could I do that if I loved him....that's my own question as well. How could I?
After this all sunk in of what I've done, I would think how could I do that to him!?! What kind of person does this? And breaks vows. I feel like my memories from before the A's and of dating him are void somehow and he no longer feels that way for me.

W02,

You just got some great insight into the fact that your extreme thinking is a way of "justifying" what you did. As long as your H thinks you are "justifying" there is little chance for a good recovery.

Now here is something else you should consider. Do you have any idea of the emotional baggage your H brought to this marriage??? Did you two talk about his previous marriages and the effects the affair had on him? How long was it between each of his marriages???

I'm going to assume for a moment that you really did not talk about his emotional baggage and do a little speculating for a moment. I am going to speculate that he brought ALOT of emotional baggage into each subsequent marriage. (This alone is why you need to work the MB plan even if you divorced, to lay down the baggage and learn from your experience).

What sort of baggage would one speculate he brought to your marriage? Let me see:

1. A general distrust of women.

2. A general distrust of himself. After all he had two women he presumably loved stab him in the back and cheat on him.

3. Some high and I mean HIGH walls to protect his heart. Your description of the marriage before your affairs, strongly suggests this is true.

So then you come along and what do you do? YOu do what his other wives did, you cheated on him? Now he is asking do I dare take my walls down? NOPE! She has already stabbed me ( is that 6 times?). Will she do it again? I don't see why not every other woman I have loved did, including her. So if I stay with her for the kids, I will protect myself emotionally.

I think that is exactly what he is doing.

However, there is something else at play here that YOU need to be aware of. You talked about how you feel. You talked about his anger. But you have not talked about how he feels about himself. You want to have a clue what he feels about himself.

In short, he feels "INADEQUATE".

People that feel 'inadequate' sexually, personally, emotionally, don't stick their neck out very far especially have THREE W's have cheated on them. YOu want to make this marriage better, you need to start to step into his shows and imagine what you would feel if you were he. What you would need if you were he to let the walls down. What pain you feel every time you looked in the mirror and the person looking back is someone you KNOW is a failure with women.

If you change your perspective and start to treat him as a man that has been deeply wounded and has no self-confidence, you might have a chance to change things around. You cannot heal him, but you can put salve on the wounds. And please don't think that "I am sorry" is putting salve on the wounds.

What puts salve on the wounds is getting to really know your H and his fears. You talking about things that you think and have learned from your affairs that could/would positively effect your relationship with him. It will be hard to get him to talk as he is very very afraid of you right now.

You say "but I was SCARED to death of him". What you don't see is that "he IS SCARED TO DEATH OF YOU."

Time to quit staring at yourself and start looking at the man you damaged so badly. It will help both of you if you start with that. It will also help you understand the articles on this site if will do this.

God Bless,

JL

F--- the statistics, I see more women on here that cheat than men, am I wrong?

wife, you need to grow up. You are addicted to the high of A, you need to turn this around.

Wife,

He was married twice before me and both of those ex's cheated on him. He's not a bad person, he's really a nice guy

I think he was terrified of trusting another woman, and may never have dealt with the fallout from his first two wives. Did he ever confront any of the OM's or is he a conflict avoider?

His sixth sense may have told him you were looking before you even knew, that might be why he maintained distance.

When my wife had her "EA" I was crushed, but felt it was just something that happens, since it had occurred with prior girlfriends, so I buried it for years. I equated my wife with those prior experiences and felt it was just more of the same. I began to wonder what was wrong with ME.

I think you need to try and see things through your husbands eyes, read some of the BH threads here for insights.

Please get STD tested, you could have an undiagnosed condition, swingers brag about how they only swing with "clean" people, but that's rubbish.

Gamma

Your memories are skewed. My job involves memory, cognition and analysis of language - and so I am considered well schooled in this arena.

The memory has a tendency to believe that the way it "feels now" is the way it "has always felt". This is a very common error of memory, and a way we get into making errors in judgement. Because we rely on our feelings to make judgements, we say, "Oh, I feel this way, and so I must have always felt this way." That's your brain, making a HUGE MISTAKE. When you do that, you need to stop and really analyze your feelings over time - look back realistically and ask yourself about your feelings.

How did you feel the day you met your husband? The first time he kissed you? The day he asked you to marry him? Those feelings were not the way you felt the day you went to have the first affair, yet your mind at the time might say differently.

That's why I brought it to your attention the use of the words "never" and "always". These words are errors in the system - the system that tells us how we truly feel. Once you change that wording, you begin to be able to see how things REALLY are, and not just cast them into the light of being that way or the other ALL THE TIME. Because looking at the way we say things works backwards into the brain, and tells the brain to slow down and look at things again - to look for that error in the system.

Your word "void" is another example. Your memories are not "void". You two could be passing over memories that validate good things - and maybe focusing only on memories that validate the negative - in order to make the point that the relationship is in the tank.

So okay - the relationship has problems. Why belabor the point?

The focus CAN change - it can change to look closer at the specific things:

1. What is RIGHT about the relationship?
2. What SPECIFICALLY is not right about the relationship?
3. What can we do as a team to work toward improving the relationship?

The answers can all be found in the Marriage Builders Basic Concepts - read them.

Also, find the books "After the Affair", and "Surviving An Affair". Both are very good for dealing with the things you are talking about - they can answer some of the questions you bring up.

Surviving An Affair was written by Dr. Harley, who owns this site. The other is by another author, and I found pretty helpful as a betrayed spouse, so your husband might want to look at it.

And his question, "How could you do that?" isn't unusual! I asked the same thing! I often said, "That isn't LOVE!!! You don't do that to someone you love!" Yet, I stayed married. My H and I recovered our marriage.

Why not ask your husband to log on here? We might be able to help him out, too!

SB

Yes , and somehow I escaped STD's.

I think you hit the nail on the head! I think ths is exactly how he feels. I feel absolutly terrible about this.

Where do I start, I feel like I am on info overload. He has never really opened up to me and he has always had this wall. When we where dated I sensed it was somewhat lowered, but as soon as we married it was like he was on high alert and acted as if I had either already done something wrong or was about to. He even defended me when we were dating because someone had accused me of cheating on him. Now, I feel like he thinks he shouldn't have defended me. He bought that up once. I know he is hurting, and I am too, but not nearly the way he is.

I do want to say that I WAS addicted to the A's. I have grown up since then and I realize the devistation I have caused. I don't feel like I have the right to hurt about this because it is my fault. I do not want to justify what I did, because I think what I did was dispicable.

I do love my hubby very much, he doesn't believe that I love him, but I think he is slowly believing it again. I don't even feel like I have the right to say I love him most of the time. I do feel very repentant. I wish I could go back in time to tell myself what will happen if I did this..I know that's rediculous, but the thought occurs to me often.

Wife,

Welcome. You've come to the right place to give yourself the best chance of having a loving marriage.

How many of the OMs you banged were married?


Good. Then please don't do it. Schoolbus is very much on the mark.


Good. It was and it's good that you see this.

Stay with us here.

best,
GH31

All at once, or one at a time?

Seriously, do the kindest thing you can for this man. Divorce him, give him everything in the divorce, and let him try again to find real love fore the 4rth time.

Out of everyone I personally know. All but two women have cheated (12 count) Only two men I know have.

That is my personal experience.

Really...this is supposed to help? I think in my case it would add insult to injury. In his other two marriages the wives filed, not him. I asked if he would still be married to the first one and he said he didn't know, but I think he might would have been married to her longer. Divorce is not the answer in my situaiton. I don't see how it's your business how I cheated but they where one at a time.

I hear you guys on the wives cheating club, I made a whole thread on that observation...or question, 'am I crazy or are there a lot of cheating wives out there'...?

'wife2'...my FWW cheated on me with 5 OM, about 21 years ago, I just found out almost 6 months ago.

Sucks.

That depends on you.
If you even believe there is the slightest possibility you will ever even think about cheating again, then yes. Letting the poor man go would be more humane than putting him through this again.

You will have to implement extraordinary precautions to avoid ever even getting even close to a position where you could cheat.

That includes things like never using a computer with an active internet connection without supervision.

Now before you jump to "I'll never cheat again" think about this...

I bet you where 100% sure you would/could never cheat when you married your husband. If you where 100% sure then, what is different now?

EP's are the only way to be 100% certain, can you implement them?


It was rhetorical.

W2, I have read your thread several times and haven't answered because I didn't know exactly what to say. I am a FWW. My A was almost 4 years ago. I crossed all sorts of lines with a coworker and made the horrible choice to have an EA/PA. Worst thing I ever did.

These are some things (not necessarily and exhaustive list) that I think are non-negotiables for the (F)WS: complete disclosure, taking 100% responsibility for the affair, examining the WHY (not excuses, but what blind spots did I have, boundaries weren't firm enough), complete honesty in ALL aspects of relationship, extreme sensitivity to my H's hurt and needs. This was like the starting line, of that makes sense.

Regarding martial issues that were there before A, they may have caused discontent with the M, but they did not cause an A. There are other options besides an A. That being said, the reason I wasn't sure how to post is because I feel some of the hurt that is on your posts. A or no A, baggage or no baggage, it does hurt when your spouse doesn't want to have SF, doesn't want to kiss you, seems to be aloof. It just does, and nothing gets around that.

Now, the vets may have better advice here, but this is what I have come up with for now. One question to ask is, "Did I know or sense that these things were present (or absent) while we were dating/engaged?" I knew H for 7 years before we got married. We had dated a couple of times. I remember him saying that he didn't like feeling like he HAD to kiss me. I remember fearing before our wedding that he might want to sleep on our wedding night rahter than....you know. When we had the "sex" session in premarital counseling and it was time for us to talk to our pastor individually, the pastor asked me what my biggest concern was. I said "that he won't want to have SF as much as I do." The pastor kind of chuckled and made some comment about how if that was my biggests fear then H was one lucky man. So looking back, I had inklings. I got married anyway.

Now, I have a choice. I can to gymnastics to try to somehow MAKE H into a "love machine." That isn't who he is; it never has been. Or I can be open and honest, and we can come to some sort of agreement, and I can let go of the desire for something that he is not able to give. Or I can just suffer in silence and die inside. The first option is not an option. The third option was one of the huge mistakes I made that led to the A. So I am working on #2.

Let me say I love my H. He is an amazing man. I have not said anything with the intent of dissing him. He rocks. We are just different in this area. If he were here, he might write some of the same stuff, except he would insert DS instead of SF. We are a work in progress.

I would examine yourself and make sure you have done/are doing all the things that should be done regarding your A. Then find out what his needs are, and work on meeting them. Be honest in a loving way about your needs. Hopefully as he becomes more secure he will be better able to meet them.

Well, I am 100% sure I won't cheat now. Why? Well, I saw the damage I did. A part of me wants to die when I see the damage I did to my husband. I contemplated suicide several times and I feel the only thing that kept me from it was our daughter. A part of me feels that I can't say that I love him because I feel I have no right. I asked him if he wanted to do a vow renewal and he said that those words don't mean anything, and not just us. I suggested writing vows and he said he wouldn't know how to do that. At some point I asked him if I meant anything to him and all he said was I was a wife and mother. I really just wanted to know if I meant anything to him anymore. I beat myself up over this inside on a daily basis, I feel like I deserve a beating from him, I feel I deserve broken bones and black eyes, I feel I deserve whatever he dishes out to me. I feel I deserve the name calling, I call myself worse. I feel like I am a no good, low down rotten excuse for a wife.
I just can't seem to express my remorse for this. All I did was hurt him, and hurt him over and over....how can he look at me let alone have sex with me?

Sorry the rhetorical seems to go over my head in this medium. I avoid going to the places that I went when I was cheating, I had yahoo messenger from my computer. I rarely go anywhere alone.I am completely honest about where I'm going and what I am doing (like when I go to the gym).

wife 02

I am a wayward. A lot of what you say echoes exactly how I feel as far as "feeling bad" and "knowing you won't do it again because you have seen the hurt it caused."

Follow the advice of the folks on here. It can only help. Specifically pay attention to folks that encourage you to not think of yourself but instead think of your H and K's.

Don't harbor a desire to be beat up. I have been there in the past. It is not healthy for anyone involved.

Try to make a written plan for recovery and get buy in from your H. Sepcifically outline your plans for transparency including EP (extraordinary precaustions).

Be grateful that your H is still around so you can have a remote chance of repairing what you have done.

Prepare yourself for what many of the BS's on this forum will say to you. Many have told me my M has no chance of being repaired and that divorce is the only option. I find it slightly confusing because if a BS posts, there is nothing but encouragement about how even the worst M ca be salvaged. But, as a wayward, I have no choice but to respectfully listen. Learn to accept it and realize that what ulitmately happens with your M is for God, you, and your H to decide.

Listen to the constructive advice on the forum, read SAA and the articles on this site, make a written plan, and prepare for the hardest work of your life. Good luck.

Very nicely written, U2.

Wife, never underestimate the value of a well thought out and executed plan.

w02

You were wrong to have an affair.

You were wrong to ignore the that WW1 had SF met outside of marriage.

You were wrong to ignore the that WW2 had SF met outside of marriage.

Now you with you his WW3, you ignored that BH did not want to kiss.

BH needs IC as to why he does not want to meet his wives need for SF.

It is just as wrong for your BH to not SF his W as it was for you to SF the OM.

Considering that you were only married TWO years before you had the A's I would sort of have to agree that the s were there about the incomplatility regarding SF issues.
Now why or how they exist in your relationship with your H ...
However unless you 2 can have an O&H communication about those I am not sure how they can be resolved.

Given his prior history with WW's I agree that he needs IC to try and figure out how he going to heal himself.
The M was for 2 years and the A was 5 years ago. Seems to me that your BH has really not had any healing for the past years to help him deal with issues from your A and perhaps even prior A's.
5 years is a LONG time to pass just goes to show that TIME ALONE does not heal wounds. He actually has to be actively doing something to help himself.
I am glad that you are trying to help heal and Recover your M but IMHO unless he gets some help for himself I am not sure how he can show up to participate in a M.
Have you tried recomending to him to visit here like Schollbus advised in one of her earlier posts?

It *feels* like that now, but feelings are temporary and they change. Eventually the remorse will be gone and you'll be feeling neglected again, then you'll feel entitled... then what?

THAT is what you need to consider.

What actions can you take to ensure that you will never have an affair again? Promising yourself that you won't, or saying you've learned your lesson, are not good enough.

You are on the right track when you say you gave up Yahoo messenger.

Other things you might consider:
Putting a key logger on your computer(s) and having the reports emailed to your BH.
Getting a cellphone that has GPS built into it and keeping it with you and powered on at all times so BH always knows where you are.

Start thinking along lines of behavioral changes and actions, rather than feelings. Feelings cannot be trusted. So... what are you going to do to ensure you never have another A?

The reason this is so important is because you must do backflips to ensure your BH feels safe. It will take a long time, and it will take verifiable behavioral changes. Telling him you've learned your lesson is not going to carry much weight with him or help him to feel very safe. As it shouldn't.

You are doing great, IMO. It is a long slow journey but you are definitely on the path.

wife_02

The BASIC CONCEPTS of Marriage Builders gives you the key ingredients for how you can help your marriage recover.

Order the books Surviving an Affair, and After the Affair, and read them. Those books can offer you a lot of very concrete ideas that you can do that will work. The books not only describe marriages before and after affairs, but give you guidelines for getting things back on track - and Surviving An Affair is written by the sponsors of this website. After the Affair isn't, but it is a good resource for the betrayed spouse - and it helps in understanding the feelings and some of the processes in affairs. Your husband may find himself looking back at his previous marriages and seeing his behavior and response to affairs in a whole new light.

You need a PLAN.

You need to have things in writing.


Your husband needs to see this plan - but you don't have a chance until you have a complete understanding of what happened and WHY YOU WENT WAYWARD.

At this point, you still focus on your husband's problems, and how he didn't fulfill you.

That isn't why you strayed.


That isn't why you cheated.

That isn't the problem.


You cheated because you violated your own morals.

Focus on YOURSELF. You cannot control your husband - you control one person in your marriage, and that is YOURSELF.

Always remember those words. You control one person in the marriage - yourself.


If you can grasp that concept, you then gain control of everything.

Because your behavior can literally change the landscape of your marriage. YOUR BEHAVIOR from this point forward can change how your husband responds to you. In fact, it always has.


You just haven't ever figured that out.


What you give to him, how you support him, how safe you make him feel, how he sees your changes, how confident he becomes in your dedication to him, how secure in your love he becomes...will be returned to you tenfold. Everything you are willing to give to him - FIRST - will be repaid.

You have to make the first move. For now, you have to pave the road with PROOF. He will not walk behind you until he sees pavement.


Read the books. Read this website. Learn what you have to DO EVERY DAY, day after day after day after day, to make him see your changes and feel what you say you feel inside.


That is how your marriage will change. There is no other pathway.

Schoolbus

OK, The surviving an affair book...OK, these books are talking about affairs as in one spouse fell in love with another person, I didn't fall in love with one particular man. How can I apply it to myself? I do want to get it once I can figure out how to apply it...what I mean to say is I am going to order it once I finish this post. Hubby and I are going to start counseling next week so I am hoping that will help us as well.
We have come aways, he no longer tries to say wrong numbers are men I cheated with. I think that's a step towards trust.

W02,

You said
What you are missing is that you will learn a lot about your H and how he thinks. As you read a given history, ask your H if this is how he saw things? Ask, him questions about the recovery and how he would like to see this. You will also see how affair begin. You say you will nver cheat and I say, that is bunk. You don't know about marriages and how to make them work. You will learn many things about how to make a relationship work and so will your H.

I won't quibble that that some imporvement has been made but I will quibble that you have made as much progress as you can and will if both of you address your issues. Please read all of the articles here and then read Harley's book. A lot of things will make more sense to both of you as you assimilate the information here.

God Bless,

JL

'Wife2', you had many OM, as my wife did. Hers were many years ago, Dday 6 months ago. To try and get into the mind of a wife who sleeps with several men, is there a reason you were with so many?

It seems most WS have one OP. My wife says she never loved any of the OM, as you did, I think? Is it because you didn't find what you thought you were looking for in one guy, so you tried to find it in another, and another?

I am not trying to talk down to you, but when I ask my wife the same thing I do not get very clear responses, and yes I am trying to help myself out as we just had another trust issue sitch come up and she failed.

I worry about long term trust and will it ever come back.

Wife02, I think you have a number of questions to ask yourself.

You married a man who had been married twice before; both wives had cheated on him, and neither wife was interested in recovering the marriage with him. This suggested he had either a pattern of poor wife-picking, or limited ability to make a happy marriage. Or, of course, that he was just horribly unlucky. What was your thinking?

There must, presumably, have been some kind of physical and emotional intimacy before you agreed to marry him? Did he dislike kissing / sex then, or did he change dramatically after marriage? If there was limited intimacy, what were your expectations for the marriage?

You sought extramarital attention via the internet, where real intimacy can be avoided in favour of fantasy. As you eventually realised.

What would you say that your pattern of choices is?

TA

The OM I was with ...they where using me. I was only with one of them twice and he was using me as well. At that time in my marriage I don't believe I knew what I wanted. No one was quite like my husband, I feel like I was looking for someone that was exactly like him, but had that "romantic" quality. I feel like I may have been acting out in some ways. I don't want to place blame on anything but myself. I knew it was wrong. But, with that said when I was doing this, something about it made me feel like a teenager. I wasn't completely after sex, I wanted attention. I wanted the high...I liked looking at men...
I am now deeply remorseful and I hate that I hurt my husband and my marriage. When I see OM in passing all I feel is pain over what I did to my husband, I really don't know how to describe my own pain. I have no pain over not being able to be with them, nothing like that at all. I feel like I deserve anything I get for what I did and I don't feel like I can be punished enough. My husband is starting to trust me again, but I am very careful not to do things that make him think I am "preparing" for sex. The only places I go without him are to the gym and to the store. I don't always take the cell phone, but I will take it with my from now on. It seems suspicious if I don't now that I think about it. I have no way of contacting OM. I actually saw an OM today and I completely avoided him, I wanted NO contact what so ever and NO eye contact whatsoever. I had went to my husbands job(I had suffered a fall inside of a store yesterday and was stopping by his work to tell him what the doc had said) I saw OM going in there and the pain that went through me as I watched my husband wait on him and the whole time my husband does not know who he is. It makes me sick to think my poor hubby has to wait on them and he doesn't know who they all are, he knows one. I just almost feel like vomiting right now as I right this...I really can't wait to move and get out of this small town and just sort of start over.

As a BS, what can a WS do to show that they are truly remorseful and truly sorry...I would crawl around on my knees begging his forgiveness if I thought that would help. What's the first thing I should read on this site? I've been reading different things here and I want his perspective...Hubby says he has a scar on him and just doesn't know what to feel anymore after ALL his hurts

'Wife2', you had many OM, as my wife did. Hers were many years ago, Dday 6 months ago. To try and get into the mind of a wife who sleeps with several men, is there a reason you were with so many?

It seems most WS have one OP. My wife says she never loved any of the OM, as you did, I think? Is it because you didn't find what you thought you were looking for in one guy, so you tried to find it in another, and another?

I am not trying to talk down to you, but when I ask my wife the same thing I do not get very clear responses, and yes I am trying to help myself out as we just had another trust issue sitch come up and she failed.

I worry about long term trust and will it ever come back.



[/quote]

Okay - now we're uncovering some issues here. You have not come clean with him yet. He deserves to know each and every one of the OM's. You owe him this, and any detail he wants to know. No wonder his recovery has been slow.

Hmmm, the first wife was interested...she came back after she filed , but hubby was done at that point and he won't really talk about it. I think in some ways he's still in love with her. He kept the weddings pictures.
Both of these women left him for women, something about that tells me that they may have been looking for sensetivity or may be just taken leave of all senses. On one of our dates in the beginning hubby asked me if I had "lesbian tendancies".
We did have premarital sex and he seemed to enjoy it then as well as kissing. He never pulled away from me then, unless it was the morning. The change in him was drastic, we had went to TN to get married. The day before he seemed fine, the day of I think he was ok and I think I was too nervous to notice. As we walked to the truck I could sense a change and I know there was a change by the time we had gotten to a resturant. I could feel it. I'm not sure what was going through his mind, if he was scared, if he was thinking of the child I was carrying at the time (yes I was pregnant when we married and no I was not trying to "trap him"). We did have sex after we got back, but he started to quit keeping track of things. He kept track of our weekly anniversaries (which I though was a little odd, but it was ok). And when we where talking about what kind of wedding rings, I said that I didn't like gold and if it was OK I wanted silver. He said he thought that was a good sign because both his exes wanted gold and his parents had silver (they've been married for 41 years as of this year). He always made comparisons that seemed minor at the time as in we married in June and both the failed marriages began in Oct. and lasted 18 mo. (both of them).
I only looked via the internet because I had limited contact with actual people. Once I went to work as a cashier in a gas station I met all kinds of people.
My pattern of choices as in what exactly? My poor choices as in the As or my life. I have way too many poor choices.

Whoaaa........

Are you saying that your BH doesn't know about each and every OM you've been with?

Does he know ther were six in total?

I can't believe he didn't ask for each of their identities.

What's missing here????

All Blessings,
Jerry

I don't even know for absolute certain it was him because I wouldn't look at him, I don't even remember their names...or his name.
Hubby hasn't asked for any names since my confession. As hard as I try to remember names, I can't.

I cannot believe I am even asking this because it is kind of my pet peeve. But when you say you have a lot of bad choices, what do you mean (if it's relevant). When you had your A's, were you really sexually-oriented? Do these things come in cycles? I ask because in my life I had cycles of bad choices. The pinnacle was my A, during which time my personality completely changed. I won't get all long winded, but one thing that happened before D-Day but during my A was that I was diagnosed as bipolar. That has since been confirmed by 2 other docs. It does NOT excuse any of my A, but it does explain a lot about some of the patterns in my life.

Like I said, this armchair psychology junk gets on my nerves, but something about your posts and the multiple OM's struck me. I only had one OM, but my sex-focus was off the charts while manic.

He knows that there where 6. He asked for identities when I confessed, there was only one he was particularly interested in. But, yes he knows there where 6 and I named the names I could remember, but there are some names I can't remember and he knows that.

I don't disagree.

But I will make an observation.

If I had found out 6 months after D day there had be others, that would have been the end of it. He may be different. I would not reveal anything more until a full discussion with the Harleys. And if I were in her shoes, I would be calling them yesterday.

Larry

My bad choices began when I was 19 and I gave my virginity to a man who was only using me. He was extremely rough with me and injured me. I am still reminded of that on a regular basis. The injury no longer causes physical pain but none the less still hurts. My next bad choice was becoming invovled with a drug addict and masturbation addict. I was constantly being hurt by him and his "hand" addiction. I became pregnant by him and lost the baby at 22 weeks. My first DD was born alive and died 12 hours later. I had to endure Christmas right after her death. I moved back home with my parents and had to deal with my mother trivalizing her death and my grief. About April bad choice #2 begins to hound my older sister about me. He begged her to give me his phone number. Well after agonizing over this she gives it to me. Well, I am in the process of trying to get over him, I think I had just taken off the ring he had given me. Well, after talking to him and being reeled in by him I went back. I can't believe I went back...I had a full time job and had saved quite a bit of money and I had gotten back my self confidence. I have never felt better about myself as I have then. Stupid me thought he had changed so I went to go see him and got trapped by him. I wound up pregnant again and something that was willing turned into this kidnapping situation. I was physically abused by his friends and emotionally abused by him once again. I managed to run away one day and wound up in a Maternity home in VA. They tried finding me there around the time the baby was due but that was about it. I gave up my son for adoption.
After that I met someone online, he begged me to come and see in another state hundreds of miles away. Well, once again I fall for silvery words and came to see him and get stuck here. He uses me repeatedly for sex. Another masturbation addict, how do I find these guys? Anyway, after a few other guys I meet my hubby. He is a wonderfully stable change from all the others. He has a job and is supporting himself, something else that was refreshing to me, his sense of responsibility. It was so wonderful in the beginning, we would drive around in his big truck, and he would say flirty things to get me to slide up next to him. He took me to the dam and that's where he kissed me for the first time. I remember many kisses and he never shied away from one or turned away. He was very sweet and quiet and very kind. Although, there was one instance I began to think his love was pity. I could only find part time work and I was on food stamps, well, we had gone grocery shopping together and mind you this was around the second week. My food stamp card wasn't working..ie it had not been refilled when it should have been. Well, he pays for my groceries and tells me not to worry about it that he would take care of me. That still strikes me when I think about it because he was the first man that had ever said it and meant it and then I go and hurt him the way that I did.
Well, I got pregnant by him and on purpose, he said he wanted it too. We had a great relationship at that point and I never expected things to change. It changed hours after we married. We did have sex when we got home, but it was few and far between. At one point he refused me for 6 mo in the first year. It was as though he was angry with me. The second year was the really bad year, he refused me at every turn, except if he wanted it. We moved into a new house in Oct. not long after that we got the computer. We argued almost all the time. After the moved he always refused me, there was no attention and no kissing. I cheated not long after that. I felt pretty bad about it, but, later on in the next year I wasn't handling it very well, if you ask my hubby he would tell you he thought I was bi-polar and he would tell you that to this day. I can't really remember my behavior very well back then, but I just didn't feel like myself. I still don't feel calm like I used to. But sometime after that I had gotten a job at a gas station and there were all kind of men and I felt like I was on the prowl. I was angry with my husband for not giving me the attention I wanted. I didn't exactly feel like the same person as I did when I was dating and all the mistakes I had made then. It was like I was a different person when I had the As. I can't quite explain, but hubby says I am a different person from when we married.

Wow, so much of the last part of your post sounds familiar. I ONLY say this because after years of inner (and outer) hell, I finally feel like a real person now. A really GOOD, qualified IC might really be helpful for you.

I am so so sorry for all you have been through.

I have been diagnosed with depression in the past and also anxiety and have been on paxil...I felt a little better while on paxil. I asked hubby to look at symptoms of bi-polar and he thinks I have 95% of the symptoms...I've looked at the symptoms, but really didn't think that was the case...I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but after the birth of my 7 yr old daughter I had severe depression, I had visions of either jumping out of a second story window, or jumping out holding my newborn. My hubby has told me things I don't remember, like screaming at her...screaming when she wouldn't nurse, he said I screamed at her in the hospital. I don't remember screaming at her, except for one incedent when she wouldn't nurse. I had such a hard time with her...I was in labor for 23 hours, she had to be rushed for oxygen a few hours after birth, then labeled failure to thrive as she was losing weight rapidly. I felt like I was forced to bottle feed her. I had no friends at this time, the only person I had was hubby. I was diagnosed with depression and was put on prozac. Prozac had a bad effect on me and made violent and rageful. I really want to know why there are parts of my life I have no memory of, then parts are just photographic.

'Wife02', that story about your husband waiting on on of your OM is a bit unnerving to hear, even though you said you were not sure...very odd.

Thanks for replying to my question. I do know my wife and I never lacked SF, especially back when the A's occurred. We were both in our 20's, and doing it all the time. Even now, we seem to be able to connect often.

It was an emotional connection for her as well, (with OM's), at least thats what she tells me. They were telling her things she needed to hear, and being her, 'friend'. As she has learned, there are plenty of men that will be your 'friend', as long as you're giving up your booty.

Tell them your problems, and don't have sex with them, see how long they will listen....not long.

((((wife02))))) I urge you to try to see a knowledgable doctor. Man, we could be related. I did NOT want to hear some of my H's concerns for so long. I didn't want to be "crazy." Much of it had to do with our church's intolernace of mental illness - just pray enough and you should be fine. I wish I had listened sooner.

Regardless, this is a good place for you to be. So many people here have such wise and spot on advice. Keep posting.

What type of doc can diagnose bipolar disorder? I was looking at the symptoms of bipolar disorder again and really thinking about the things I've done over my life and see some things that would only make sense if I was bipolar. The mood shifts really make me wonder. I made my own head spin yesterday after I had thought about it. I had been talking and joking with hubby and otherwise pretty happy, well, I went from that to just ANGRY in the space of less than 10 minutes. I didn't really realize it until my hubby said something about. And when I thought about it I was just thinking, whoa, did I just do that? All I want to do is go back to being that calm, quiet,(and my hubby refers to as sweet)person I was when we met. I didn't feel "crazy" then.
When I was about 20 I went through a time where I felt absolutely wonderful, I had never felt so self-confident and out-look was great. Everything was just perfect! Could that have been a manic episode? I went from that to just down and depressed in a space of about 3 months. I just went downhill from there.

A psychiatrist ... MD.
Not psychologist .... PhD.

And, I doubt you are bi-polar.
But, it's OK to make sure.

So much to say to you. You say these are "your" bad choices, but then you place the blame on the men or other people. Watch how you do this - I will highlight it in red for you:




My bad choices began when I was 19 and I gave my virginity to a man who was only using me. He was extremely rough with me and injured me. I am still reminded of that on a regular basis. The injury no longer causes physical pain but none the less still hurts.


My next bad choice was becoming invovled with a drug addict and masturbation addict. I was constantly being hurt by him and his "hand" addiction. I became pregnant by him and lost the baby at 22 weeks. My first DD was born alive and died 12 hours later. I had to endure Christmas right after her death. I moved back home with my parents and had to deal with my mother trivalizing her death and my grief. About April bad choice #2 begins to hound my older sister about me. He begged her to give me his phone number. Well after agonizing over this she gives it to me. Well, I am in the process of trying to get over him, I think I had just taken off the ring he had given me. Well, after talking to him and being reeled in by him I went back. I can't believe I went back...I had a full time job and had saved quite a bit of money and I had gotten back my self confidence. I have never felt better about myself as I have then. Stupid me thought he had changed so I went to go see him and got trapped by him. I wound up pregnant again and something that was willing turned into this kidnapping situation. I was physically abused by his friends and emotionally abused by him once again. I managed to run away one day and wound up in a Maternity home in VA. They tried finding me there around the time the baby was due but that was about it. I gave up my son for adoption.


After that I met someone online, he begged me to come and see in another state hundreds of miles away. Well, once again I fall for silvery words and came to see him and get stuck here. He uses me repeatedly for sex. Another masturbation addict,

how do I find these guys? I have to interject here. You look for them, you state yourself that you "fall" for them, you FIND them, you RUN to them, you go to them, and you even go back to them. You need to look at yourself very deeply and understand why you CHOOSE THEM. Because in each of these cases, YOU CHOSE. Think about that. I'm serious here - think about why you chose each of these men. Because you did. In each case, you went willingly, by your own words. Where in there do you actually listen to that voice that says, "BAD CHOICE!" and then actually follow through with NOT DOING THE BAD THING?


Anyway, after a few other guys I meet my hubby. He is a wonderfully stable change from all the others. He has a job and is supporting himself, something else that was refreshing to me, his sense of responsibility. It was so wonderful in the beginning, we would drive around in his big truck, and he would say flirty things to get me to slide up next to him. He took me to the dam and that's where he kissed me for the first time. I remember many kisses and he never shied away from one or turned away. He was very sweet and quiet and very kind. Although, there was one instance I began to think his love was pity. I could only find part time work and I was on food stamps, well, we had gone grocery shopping together and mind you this was around the second week. My food stamp card wasn't working..ie it had not been refilled when it should have been. Well, he pays for my groceries and tells me not to worry about it that he would take care of me. That still strikes me when I think about it because he was the first man that had ever said it and meant it and then I go and hurt him the way that I did.

Well, I got pregnant by him and on purpose earliler you said you didn't want to trap him, but this makes me wonder again about your choice making skills and impulsivity problem , he said he wanted it too. We had a great relationship at that point and I never expected things to change.

It changed hours after we married. We did have sex when we got home, but it was few and far between. At one point he refused me for 6 mo in the first year. It was as though he was angry with me. The second year was the really bad year, he refused me at every turn, except if he wanted it. We moved into a new house in Oct. not long after that we got the computer. We argued almost all the time. After the moved he always refused me, there was no attention and no kissing. I cheated not long after that. So, it didn't take long for you to look elsewhere. This should tell you that your problem-solving skills are very much lacking, and that your response to issues are fairly impulsive. Your history of "bad choices" validates that. You need to get into independent counseling and dig DEEP to figure out WHY.

I felt pretty bad about it, but, later on in the next year I wasn't handling it very well, if you ask my hubby he would tell you he thought I was bi-polar and he would tell you that to this day. I can't really remember my behavior very well back then, but I just didn't feel like myself. I still don't feel calm like I used to. My response here is that you were probably never viewed by others as a "calm" person. Check this out with someone who will tell you the truth. Likely, they will tell you that they have always viewed you as somewhat scattered, impulsive, and not too good at thinking through decisions before you dive in, plus they are probably going to tell you that you tend to be a little jumpy. I also suspect that in an argument you get really angry pretty fast, then cool off just as quickly - they will tell you that you tend to be ruled by your feelings, and not your head. Just an educated guess here.

But sometime after that I had gotten a job at a gas station and there were all kind of men and I felt like I was on the prowl. I was angry with my husband for not giving me the attention I wanted. I didn't exactly feel like the same person as I did when I was dating and all the mistakes I had made then. It was like I was a different person when I had the As. I can't quite explain, but hubby says I am a different person from when we married. Your husband is probably right about his observations. You have probably shown some growth in coming to grips with your past behavior, and now you are looking back and reviewing what you did in horror. This has a chilling effect on people who have allowed emotional reactions to take control of their lives - and now you are trying to set a new pathway for yourself, which is to allow the logical side of yourself to take control. Thus, your husband sees this as a "different person" coming to light. He probably isn't quite sure what to make of such a change, because if you make this permanent, it will be a drastic flip from the previous and historic "you".

Not an easy task, but it is possible, BTW.

BTDT

So I know what you're doing, and where you've been.

When you react now, you have to react from a point of CONTROL. And that is what you are looking for, here, at MB. You can find that - read the Emotional Needs area of the website, and then look at the Radical Honesty part. Then, you and your husband need to talk about the Policy of Joint Agreement. You and he need to get on the same page - and I would say that moving out of that town would be advisable, because your husband does not need to be waiting on OM. EVER.

Can I make some clarifications...not meaning any disrespect whatsoever to you. I think you are right on almost everything, with that said. I look at the men I have been with and ran to as bad choices and I am putting it lightly. As I think back about the horrible choices I have made and just think how could I.

So much to say to you. You say these are "your" bad choices, but then you place the blame on the men or other people. Watch how you do this - I will highlight it in red for you:




My bad choices began when I was 19 and I gave my virginity to a man who was only using me. He was extremely rough with me and injured me. I am still reminded of that on a regular basis. The injury no longer causes physical pain but none the less still hurts.


My next bad choice was becoming invovled with a drug addict and masturbation addict. I was constantly being hurt by him and his "hand" addiction. I became pregnant by him and lost the baby at 22 weeks. My first DD was born alive and died 12 hours later. I had to endure Christmas right after her death. I moved back home with my parents and had to deal with my mother trivalizing her death and my grief. About April bad choice #2 begins to hound my older sister about me. He begged her to give me his phone number. Well after agonizing over this she gives it to me. Well, I am in the process of trying to get over him, I think I had just taken off the ring he had given me. Well, after talking to him and being reeled in by him I went back. I can't believe I went back...I had a full time job and had saved quite a bit of money and I had gotten back my self confidence. I have never felt better about myself as I have then. Stupid me thought he had changed so I went to go see him and got trapped by him. I wound up pregnant again and something that was willing turned into this kidnapping situation. I was physically abused by his friends and emotionally abused by him once again. I managed to run away one day and wound up in a Maternity home in VA. They tried finding me there around the time the baby was due but that was about it. I gave up my son for adoption.


After that I met someone online, he begged me to come and see in another state hundreds of miles away. Well, once again I fall for silvery words and came to see him and get stuck here. He uses me repeatedly for sex. Another masturbation addict,

how do I find these guys? I have to interject here. You look for them, you state yourself that you "fall" for them, you FIND them, you RUN to them, you go to them, and you even go back to them. You need to look at yourself very deeply and understand why you CHOOSE THEM. Because in each of these cases, YOU CHOSE. Think about that. I'm serious here - think about why you chose each of these men. Because you did. In each case, you went willingly, by your own words. Where in there do you actually listen to that voice that says, "BAD CHOICE!" and then actually follow through with NOT DOING THE BAD THING?


Anyway, after a few other guys I meet my hubby. He is a wonderfully stable change from all the others. He has a job and is supporting himself, something else that was refreshing to me, his sense of responsibility. It was so wonderful in the beginning, we would drive around in his big truck, and he would say flirty things to get me to slide up next to him( I never looked at this as being wrong or something to fall for, these are great memories). He took me to the dam and that's where he kissed me for the first time. I remember many kisses and he never shied away from one or turned away. He was very sweet and quiet and very kind. Although, there was one instance I began to think his love was pity. I could only find part time work and I was on food stamps, well, we had gone grocery shopping together and mind you this was around the second week. My food stamp card wasn't working..ie it had not been refilled when it should have been. Well, he pays for my groceries and tells me not to worry about it that he would take care of me. That still strikes me when I think about it because he was the first man that had ever said it and meant it and then I go and hurt him the way that I did.

Well, I got pregnant by him and on purpose earliler you said you didn't want to trap him, but this makes me wonder again about your choice making skills and impulsivity problem ,. I am simply saying that she was planned by he and I. I told him I wanted a baby and he said he did to. I would not have done this if I had thought it through. It was a reckless disicion. he said he wanted it too. We had a great relationship at that point and I never expected things to change.

It changed hours after we married. We did have sex when we got home, but it was few and far between. At one point he refused me for 6 mo in the first year. It was as though he was angry with me. The second year was the really bad year, he refused me at every turn, except if he wanted it. We moved into a new house in Oct. not long after that we got the computer. We argued almost all the time. After the moved he always refused me, there was no attention and no kissing. I cheated not long after that. So, it didn't take long for you to look elsewhere. This should tell you that your problem-solving skills are very much lacking, and that your response to issues are fairly impulsive. Your history of "bad choices" validates that. You need to get into independent counseling and dig DEEP to figure out WHY. I completely agree with that!

I felt pretty bad about it, but, later on in the next year I wasn't handling it very well, if you ask my hubby he would tell you he thought I was bi-polar and he would tell you that to this day. I can't really remember my behavior very well back then, but I just didn't feel like myself. I still don't feel calm like I used to. My response here is that you were probably never viewed by others as a "calm" person. Check this out with someone who will tell you the truth. Likely, they will tell you that they have always viewed you as somewhat scattered, impulsive, and not too good at thinking through decisions before you dive in, plus they are probably going to tell you that you tend to be a little jumpy. I also suspect that in an argument you get really angry pretty fast, then cool off just as quickly - they will tell you that you tend to be ruled by your feelings, and not your head. Just an educated guess here.

But sometime after that I had gotten a job at a gas station and there were all kind of men and I felt like I was on the prowl. I was angry with my husband for not giving me the attention I wanted. I didn't exactly feel like the same person as I did when I was dating and all the mistakes I had made then. It was like I was a different person when I had the As. I can't quite explain, but hubby says I am a different person from when we married. Your husband is probably right about his observations. You have probably shown some growth in coming to grips with your past behavior, and now you are looking back and reviewing what you did in horror. This has a chilling effect on people who have allowed emotional reactions to take control of their lives - and now you are trying to set a new pathway for yourself, which is to allow the logical side of yourself to take control. Thus, your husband sees this as a "different person" coming to light. He probably isn't quite sure what to make of such a change, because if you make this permanent, it will be a drastic flip from the previous and historic "you". He liked the me from when we where dating, he does not like the "new me". When we where dating(until I had the baby idea) I was calm and somewhat in control. I'm not sure exactly when I lost it. It's like I got brief episodes of the me I really am. The nice, considerate ,calm, and kind me.

Not an easy task, but it is possible, BTW.

BTDT

So I know what you're doing, and where you've been.

When you react now, you have to react from a point of CONTROL. And that is what you are looking for, here, at MB. You can find that - read the Emotional Needs area of the website, and then look at the Radical Honesty part. Then, you and your husband need to talk about the Policy of Joint Agreement. You and he need to get on the same page - and I would say that moving out of that town would be advisable, because your husband does not need to be waiting on OM. EVER. We will be moving soon, hopefully this summer.

Oh, I did want to point out that the kidnapping situation was that I was being held against my will by a friend of the exes. He was enjoying the abuse his friends where putting me through. No one in my family knows the extent of what was going on. Those people where secretly drugging me, using me as a slave and threatening to take my unborn baby. (that last one I know makes NO sense to me now, but then it was torture, lots of things make sense when you are drugged) These people had done this before to another girl. They wanted my baby and where doing whatever they could to get it. I had at least enough sense to run away when I did. I saw a brief oppurtunity when the women was watching me. I had to have police escorts to safely get out of there. But, I don't understand why they couldn't go after these people. But, my parents never filed missing person or anything like that, but they weren't aware of how things turned that bad.

I think it is a really good idea to have yourself checked out by a psychiatrist.

Best of luck to you.

What are you skeptical about? Are you wanting the complete unabridged version?

Is anyone here missing the fact she was raped? Do you know what happens to some, and I say some, women when they are raped at a young age?
Wife2 you need to find that out because you have inside a messed up emotional link to sex. I bet that your HUbby has no idea how to deal with this and looks at you as "dammaged goods"

As far as your Husband goes someone said he was probably totally blaming himself.

So he wants to save you but can't trust a woman with a sex drive. He wants to desire you but feels inadaquate to his very core. He loves you but hates himself and has given up on romance or even any slim hope of intimacy of how he can trust his heart.

I wonder if he did talk about his past and the pain he felt and hoped you would make it better as he loved and protected you from the sleezes you associated sex with? Good news.. You are starting the process now. To bad you didn't see how much he was suffering and deal with it B4 you got married but you see it now and that is what matters.. Cuz now is where we allways start from.
Sometimes we click with someone and still don't communicate as well as we assume. Did you tell him abaout all your sexual experiences in the past? More important though, Did you realize that you have a desire to be dominated sexually? How could you talk about that if you didn't know? Did you ever spend time with a man before him that treated you with respect in the sex dept? Like when you said no?

Seems that you have been sexually abused by every guy before your Husband. You need to figure this out. It screwed up who you chose and why.

Now did your husband, after having two failed marriages and being cheated on in both of them give up on love? Instaed of boldly stating that he was hurt and knowing it wasn't his fault did he inside wonder if it was? Did he succomb to the idea put in his head that he was inadaquate? Did HE ever figure it out with a counselor and how much baggage did he bring with him?

You guys need help to identify whatever lies you have been sold or beaten into you by life and then you can heal yourselves and your marriage.

You have a strong sex drive coupled with some former abuse and boundary problems.

Hubby has given up on intimacy and trust and is so alone. He might have issues outside of your time with him or his first wives that contributed to this also.

You are both lucky and cursed you found each other. The curse is you have each other to blame so you don't have to seek help. <( I give you credit for coming here so don't feel like I'm dissing you)

The lucky part or blessing is that you both know what its like to be emotionally hurt and you want to feel good again as you love each other.

There have been many posters on this thread who amaze me in their wisdom and after reading it I am so glad they are helping you sort out your mind. They will be able to help you deal with what you need to do now better than I .You need both types of counselling, IC and the Harleys along with some prayer time together. As long as you do your part, God will do his.

Best wishes and prayers

Oh and i did read between the lines and I think your parents neglected you somehow. Tell the Shrink/therapists everything. Find one who makes you think not just holds your hand OK? So many of them wont realize how well you will seem to behave is really an act. Be challanged to change and fight for the truth and I hope that you do this. Not just for yourself but for your kids.

How and why would a parent NOT make a big deal about a kidnapping and still call themselves parents? What did you do to be treated that way or do you come from an extreme dysfuntional Family?


..wait I take back that question.. They have to be POS. No parent would let thier child turn out like this..Thier is nothing you could do to deserve this neglect

You'r right, SSO. No child DOES smething to MAKE a parent treat them a cetain way. A real parent loves unconditionally. Period.

I do feel in some areas I was neglected by my parents on some levels. My biological parents where well...my mother gave me up for adoption, I was the product of an affair. Ever since I found that out I had always felt that I was not born out of love but of lust and hatred. I don't like talking about...What I don't get is that I wasn't even raised by her but yet I followed in her mistakes. I gave up a child for adoption and I cheated on my husband. My parents always had foster babies in the house. My mom always seemed to have 2 under 2. The house was always perfect, well except my room, I was a tad messy, but what young child isn't? We always went to church, my parents had a singing group and we all sang. I remember doing things to get attention from her, I remember being around after potty training I think I was 3 or 4 I went and peed on the floor under my bed(luckily it was a hard wood floor and not carpet). I don't remember my dad being around much. In pictures, we were all very loving. And there where A LOT of pictures. I remember right around puburty that I no longer got to sit on my dad's lap. I used to lay across his lap and he'd rub my back and well I got be around 11 and that stopped too. Things got realllll awkward and still are. He still took me to the park and took me other places. He bought me toys and took me fishing. My mother had to go into a mental health place for a while (oo she'd have a fit if she knew what I'm about to admit to about her) because she had been raped. I remember her being almost absent in mind for 2 years. I don't remember much from that time. It's like I almost blocked out 10,11, and 12 completely. I do remember crying myself to sleep every night for the week she was gone...I think I was around 11 at that time. Another thing was I was homeschooled and didn't have any friends.
The only people I had to talk to where adults. Mostly my parents and my older sister (there was a 14 yr gap between us). Then we moved from town into the country and I wasn't allowed to play with the neighborhood kids because they went to public shcool and would expose me to things like (gasp) sex. Well, I got invovled with a home school group and I met my best friend CB...(not going to use names) She was a blast! And she new about sex. I met her when I was 14 and learned all about sex...how it worked and even stuff that I didn't think should be done. Funny thing though, after reading about Song of Solomon and reading about what's really in there it wasn't anything different, except leaving out the married part. I was told a little bit about sex and I wasn't to do it till married. I wasn't told that it could be beautiful and it was loving. I had to discover that for myself.
Anyway, once I had learned about sex I started writing erotic things about my favorite charictars (I learned later on that this was refered to as fen fiction). I had a long story going that was over 300 pages. Another crazy things is that I discovered masturbation at age 7. Who ever heard of that! I had been accidently exposed to a naked man on TV. Things where awoken in me that shouldn't have been at that age. I really didn't know what the physical feelings were and knew I shouldn't ask about it. My mother caught me once and told me nice girls didn't do stuff like that, but it didn't stop. I discovered it was a good sleep aid. But, I did stop at some point. I rediscovered it at 11. I thought it was bad, so I stopped. It was always a cycle for me...I would become convinced it was bad and stop. I really don't think it was compulsive or addictive, I just wanted to because it felt good. Anyway....I felt more disconnected form my parent at 14 than I ever have in my life. Go to your room was never a punishment for me, it was always come out of your room. I was always depressed and my mothers counselor was concerned about me because she never saw me smile. I didn't smile very much at at all. I remember all I wanted to do was sleep in my dark room, I aways had the blinds closed and the darker the better. I remember about 15 I had a crush on the kid across the street and I would sit by my window and watch him play basketball. I watched him for 1 year and a 1/2. It was one of those things where he liked me in private but hated me in front of his friends. Well, one night we both snuck out at midnight, we talk and made out. I don't know if this was important or not but that kiss was amazing and I remember it like it happened yesterday. Three kisses one deeper than the next, the excitement of being outside and possibly getting caught. But that kiss caused me to have the greatest orgasm ever. I have never had one like it since. I think my husband has what it takes to bring that out of me but he hasn't tried. He won't do what it takes for that to happen. Either that or the experiance has ruined me and I have to have a heighten sense of excitement .
The next night we snuck out again, it wasn't the same. He was eager to do stuff..he touched me in places and it really hurt (I was still a virgin and I couldn't insert a pinky finger without a lot of pain. It didn't feel the same as it had the night before. We didn't have sex, the only thing preserves was my physical virginity. Something about that left me feeling empty.

Not long after that I met my first actual boyfriend. He was great and I couldn't stop smiling at him. We would make out and feel each other. I still didn't feel what I had with my first kiss. But, that didn't stop me from obsessing about him. I think I stalked that poor kid by telephone. The kid told me he loved me the second time we talked on the phone. It was the first time a boy said that to me. But anyway, we broke up after a year and I met this other guy and we phone dated...he was off and on. When my first boyfriend was off the second time he was on and then by the time he was off, I went looking for my first boyfriend. Till it get's to the beginning of all my bad choices. So my first sexual experience was painful, losing my virginty to the other guy was horribly painful. I guess it was like rape, but I never really talked about it because when I spoke of it to my mother she didn't believe that it went from willing to unwilling. Then I just wasn't sure if it was a rape. There was another time that I wasn't sure. this man had "fallen for me" and I wanted nothing to do with him...I won't go into detail but when he got what he wanted, it well, I laid there screaming in my head. It was a weird parent child thing I was 19 and he 19 years older than I. There were times I tried to get away but couldn't. My parents don't know how bad it really was and still don't know.

I commend you on your honesty and openess. You seem to be able to have some insight also. I still think that a professional should be dealing with this stuff tho. We are just the peanut gallery.
Because the site is dedicated to marriage and what to do for a healthy one that will be most ppls focus. Any strange or bad behavior will be pointed out promptly and the advice will be pointed to helping your marriage specifically. I hope you understand that very deep internal issues you might have are outside our scope for the most part even if we try to understand.

Whats good about this is that you will both have to search your hearts and souls to see what is getting in the way of good marrige practices and emotional bonding. Sort of like wishing you could be a lawyer but when you started school finding out your math skills were not up to par. You have to be taught math first before you can be a lawyer.
Unfortunatly you are learning these things after damage has been done. Fortunatly you are learning them. Its not the mistakes we make that define our character but how we deal with them. Keep asking questions and demanding that you can fix your marriage, thats a good thing. Be sure to study here and seek the MB concepts as a way to have a healthy Marriage. The guy knows how to help and he will give you the tools you and your Hubby will use the rest of your lives.

Your actions or hubbys actions and what drove you guys to how you interact will be brought into question by posters here and probably by any good counselor. If you can't explain yourself or sound like you are making excuses you will be called on it. So what do you do? Go to counselors and find out why you have done or want to do things you now know are dangerous to yourself and those who love you. You can o0nly do that when you yourself know what they are and agree that those things need be gone from your life. One step at a time.

Hang in there w2

I am trying to sort out why I had the As in the first place...I just don't know where to turn...I will be going to a counselor on Thu. I just don't know where to start. There's so much I think I could write a book. All of this led up to the issues in my marriage. I mean just look at the baggage, I can't believe I am walking upright.
And then when I think of hubby's baggage..whoa, two people drowning in their pasts. Once we get through this and work it all out I think we are perfect for each other.
SSO, I really think you have my hubby pegged. Intimacy is almost non existant with us.
I was talking with hubby last night and trying to be gentle about the As. I asked him if he wanted to know their identities as best as I could remember and that's when he told me he had addresses and pictures. I was kind of shocked and he told me he showed three pictures to me. I do not remember that at all. I kind of doubt he knows because when I told him he had waited on one he gave me this look and asked me how did I know and I said I wasn't completely sure if it was the same person because I wouldn't look at him, but I had pulled in the parking lot right behind him...I told him the thought of him waiting on these people made me want to just vomit. I feel like they get something sick out of him waiting on them. Just thinking about it makes me want to puke!
I really wish I had never done this. The best thing about this is I really think that hubby wants to salvage our marriage, I think he must sense that I am sincere...either that or he just doesn't want another failed marriage under his belt.

"I wouldn't look at him, but I had pulled in the parking lot right behind him...I told him the thought of him waiting on these people made me want to just vomit. I feel like they get something sick out of him waiting on them. Just thinking about it makes me want to puke"

Sounds as if a move far away from all the OM would do the both of you good.

Hopefully moving this summer...anyone want to buy a house?

I Understand him because I was like him once. The guilt and confusion became so painful after my wifes death I had to search out why. So I found this site by searching google about the effects on a spouse when they were married to an alcoholic.
All of us are here because we need support. None of us come here because we knew it all and were gracing everyone with our perfect knowledge.

Thank God you are not struggling with substance abuse. That escape and denial tool removes the rest of the pain that keeps you alive for some of the people I knew.

I would say that I was married three times, the second two to the same women. First wife cheated and i fell apart. Second wife was cheating before the marriage and had a alcohol problem to boot but when she got pregnant , by accident, and she found out she had cancer at the same time well I manned up and took care of her. But after the baby was born and cancer was gone she reverted back to a miserable drunk and cheater and I left.

When I came back after she found Jesus again, (Did he ever leave?), after two years I was in protect mode, not as bad as your hubby but enough to recognize it in him.
Eventually she left her dry drunk and would never deal with her emotional issue that drove her into poor behavior. It took her a few years though before she felt entitled. She needed counseling and AA and to stop using her "idenity in Christ" as an excuse to abuse "Grace as a lisense to sin".

Well I chose to look the other way many times when she lied,cheated, and broke my heart with her dissapearances and drug behavior. I blamed myself. I thought that it was my fault and the funny thing is she would blame our problems on me not being confidant enough in God to make enough money for us sometimes. She and I lived in hope without a plan other than I needed to make money for a long time. She never saw that a major part of my self confidance was effected when she strayed. It was like I was a failure in the most important thing in my life. Taking care of my wife and family. The more she screwed up and lied about it as she expected me to be the only responsible one and to take the blame, the more I hung my head down and took it when she would just deny doing anything wrong as I gave up ever trusting her or even wanting to live really. I was just holding on in blind hope of deliverance from chains I allowed myself to be bound with.
We could have used a place like this site instaed of a church that did like lurosiis and acted like it was our fault for not praying enough. But thats a whole different story there..

Enough of the heartache and confusion both of you share can be compared to my sitch so that I can understand and be empathetic but these ppl can help you reach the goals you guys want in yur marriage. Along with the work and a strong enough passion and desire to get there.

And yes you should write a book, Start with a journal because it is a great tool for you and any therapy.

W02.

.my mother gave me up for adoption, I was the product of an affair.

Thats also my story, my bio-Mother gave me up when I was 18 months old, I've always felt I didn't belong anywhere was that your experience too?

God Bless
Gamma

Your wife died?? Wow, I am so sorry.
My hubby has finally been diagnosed with diabetes and it has been one of those things where his symptoms aren't the norm of everyone. Whenever he had his sugar check it was "normal". He has been having problems for the past 4 years and most people don't understand that he's been dealing with an unknown problem...I don't know what it's like to lose a spouse, but I know what it's like to live in fear of losing them to death. His sugar is so high right now, we really don't know how else to control it with diet. He doesn't have a moniter yet but a friend used theirs and it was close to 600. He is more aware know of what not to eat...that's high enough to fall into a coma, I'm just hoping his size is keeping him out of danger. (He's a big man, but he'd be big after weightloss around 250. He is at least taking this seriously and is trying to lose weight and I couldn't be happier about him finally realizing his weight can be a problem, now if I could just get control of my weight again ;))
Anyway...my hubby is a former alchoholic he went to drinking after his first wife left and lost everything...I can't remember if he did the same thing after the second wife left, I think he took on a mentality that he wasn't good enough.
All I did was make it worse and he now says he has a scar.
I am hoping that the counselor will help us. I will be starting a journal as soon as I can figure out where to start.

Yes, I have always had this sense of abandonment, I never really felt like I honestly and truly fit in with my family. I have had a hard time making friends with mostly women. My mother never understood why I felt abandoned, she would find these adoptees that had it all together and where proud to say that they didn't feel abandoned. She always had a way of saying I only felt a certain way because I thought I should. I was with them since I was 3 days old, but it was in court for 3 years. I had some visitation with my Bio-father and one with my Bio-mother. The short visit I had with her, my adoptivemom had all of these negative feelings for her as in I was HER baby now.

I have a question, would a "romantic" vacation be a good idea, or would it be a disaster at this point? I sort of thought it might be a good idea, but then I thought it would be no different than how we behave at home.

I was the product of an A, but I was not given up for adoption. I was raised by my mother, who was the OW. My mother never married and never had any more children. She continued to cling to the hope that my father would divorce his wife and marry her until I was in high school. She never acknowledged that what she did was wrong. She always viewed herself as the "victim" because my father lied to her and led her on. She justified her actions by vilifying my father's wife, who "never understood him." I always felt like the black sheep in my extended family. I never felt accepted the way my cousins were, whose parents were married. Most of my father's family were never told of my existence and still don't know about me to this day. I grew up feeling very much like a dirty little secret that had no right to exist.

There are downsides to it either way. Being the product of an A is never easy.

I am also an adoptee who is the product of an affair, but I didn't find out about the affair part until I met my birthmother at age 30. Honestly, I am one of those weirdo adoptees who aways felt special and chosen rather than abandoned. I kow I frustrated my parents some because I was the flighty, emotional, artsy girl who couldn't find her car keys, and they are both very type A. But they were/are wonderful parents who were soooooo thankful to have me, so I am sure that helped. I never really thought about biology until I was pregnant with my first child.

I do think that adoption can add a whole other dimension to the relationship thing, esp if you felt isolated or abandoned growing up. Between adoption, bipolar, and a massive right brain personality,I had no prayer of being normal - ha! Normal is overated anyway!

W02,

You asked

Why don't you ask him? But instead of "romantic" why not cast it as just "getting away" to decompress and relax. That young lady is what leads to romance. Just get away, hike, walk, shop, sightsee, and simply enjoy one another quietly, no strings, no relationship talks, no medical talks. Just BE!


Those are my thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

So see if I have this right. Your husband has blood sugar over 600 and is NOT BEING TREATED BY A DOCTOR????

He is going to DIE.

And also, you say he is around 400 lbs??? That he needs to lose at least 250 lbs to be healthy???

HE IS GOING TO DIE< GET HIM TO A DOCTOR FOR DIABETIC MEDS.

You can get a blood sugar monitor for free online, just google "Free blood glucose meter".

And GET HOM TO A DOCTOR NOW!

What JL said about a vacation would be a good idea but this man cannot go on hikes or walks because of his huge size. He needs to get this diabetes under controll and you two need to quit eating fatty foods and sugary foods.

I completely agree..I am in a panic over his sugar levels. He has a moniter, bought a treadmill. We have changed our diet and I am calling the doc in the morning to see if they can get him in tomorrow(which they had better!). I really don't understand how he appears to be healthy. He needs to lose about 100lbs to be at a healthy weight. He is to blame for his own poor food choices, I cannot make him do anything( I follow Sparkpeople.com and use most of the healthy eating recipes they have). But, with the realization of his blood sugar being so high he has made MANY changes and the biggest one being he switched from soda pop to just water. He checked his blood sugar a little while ago and it was 462. What I don't get is that he hasn't had any sugar today??? I also think it had an effect on him when I told him this can KILL him. So he seems motivated to make the changes he is. I don't want to lose my hubby and I don't want my children to lose their Daddy!

Once he gets this under control and we both lose weight we will be going on a trip.

What I meant by "romantic" was NO kids. Our kids will go stay at Nana and Papaw's house.

How do you talk to each other without talking about kids, medical stuff, and bills (our city raised the "sewer" portion of the water bill and hubby well, he wasn't happy to say the least). Can all of the non-affair related stuff apply to me here ?
Is 30 still considered a young lady?lol

Wow, flighty, emotional, artsy girl...that's me!! right brained? Are you left-handed?

I have been a diabetic, insulin dependant for 25 years, became one shortly after meeting second wife and she became pregnant shortly after that. I think I got sloppy in the birth control dept because of this also but its still not any excuse to have sex before marriage and Im not making one

Hi Wife_02,

I'm a registered dietitian and I thought I would throw in a little info about your H's diabetes. It is not just sugar that causes his blood sugar to go up. It is everything! Everything you eat is converted to glucose after it is digested. That is the energy source of choice for your cells and brain.

His diabetes is the result of the 100 pounds overweight you say he is. So, his size won�t help/save him in any way. It is because of his size that he has diabetes. And it won�t change until he loses weight. He has become insensitive to the insulin his body produces, because of the excess weight.

He needs to be seen by a physician and get some dietary counseling to help him get the glucose levels down ASAP. He needs to be on medication to bring down the glucose levels until he can get the weight off. Not necessarily insulin, but oral medications at a minimum.

I am stunned if a physician diagnosed his diabetes (and at those glucose levels) and didn�t put him on any medications to go along with his weight loss efforts.

He will not be able to lower the glucose levels on his own at this point. Get him back to the doctor�s office!

Start with today. Be honest about everything you feel and experiance and write it down dailey.

If yu want to write about past stuff thats cool too but that will be more about your past concepts and how you felt,feel about the past.

The journal will surprise you as you read it in six months and see patterns and how far you have come or not come. Either way start today and just write what you think and feel. there are no right and wrong feelings in it because its personal and yours for objectiivity.

And there you have it, support from someone who knows waht she is talking about. MB ppl are awesome!!

Sugar balance, stress, diet, excersize, all have to be dealt with in disipline and he will notice a would of difference in his moods also. I say this because I lived it. more later but please see a doc. He has the type that can be handled with diet? He must or he would be losing weight like crazy.
I am 5'10 and when 20 years old B4 diabtes I was a solid 200 lbs, pulse rate of 44 and all the nurses when i went to the hospital asked me if i was an athelte because Blood pressure was so healthy. ( Boy wasn't I proud lol). I also smoked two packs a day and worked like a fool and was in great shape for a smoker.

When I was diagnosed as a diabetic was 6 years later, I was working two jobs and dropped to 140 lbs. Second wife looked at me and said I looked sick, I said I had the flu and she proceeded to make me dinner as I took the night off. She made me pancakes, hash browns, and an hour later I was . To the hospital I went where my sugar was around 700.

Take care of him W02, we are what we eat and we become what we think

I will take care of to the best of my abilities! I couldn't stand to lose him...it would be a tragedy to our entire family.

W1,

You wrote There are downsides to it either way. Being the product of an A is never easy.

That really resonates with me, even for the COM it is painful.

About a month ago I was speaking with my half-brother, on my Mothers side, he lives in squalor with a disgusting ex-prostitute, is filthy and very sick. Yet for my brother the worst thing which ever happened was when my Mom had an affair with OM and his family was torn apart.

Sorry for the slight thread jack W02!

Gamma

Normal...what a concept.. lol

My wife was taken away by the state at 5 years old because her Mom was a raging alcoholic. She was placed in foster homes locally so she got to witness her town drunk Mom get plasterd and come visit. Wife looked almost exactly like her Mom and they were both very beautiful women. Wifes biggest fear was turning out like her Mom. Her foster Dad after she had lived with them for 7 years developed "boundary issues" when she was like 12-13 because she "reminded him of a girl he was once in love with". This seems to happen so often with stepdads also.. well tahts a whole thread subject..
FW was the oldest of a string of children her Mom spit out and only she and her brother were taken away. FW also took on the Hero role as her younger brother did the denial role as extreme role playing is common in dysfunctional familys with childen because of the fear factor thier screwy parents hand them at such a young age.
At 17 she found an enviroment,(far away from home town), where she was loved and accepted whithin a christian community. Here she shined as she could shake off the genetics and threw herself into a relationship with Christ and studied theology with the best of them. This became her new idenity but the fears imbedded in her as a child were just below the surface. Instaed of seeking a doctor to find out what and why she was driven to rebeliuosness she just chalked it up to the way everybody was when they fell into sin. It was a recipe for having a new dependance on whatever way the wind blows in her moods. If she drank it was Satan who made her and all she had to do was "rebound" and get back to church. She traded the fear of not being good enough for her Parents to love her with not being good enough for God to and her church sold it. Along with that kind of teaching came an entitlement and expectation that God would change the rules just for Her. They should have went to her and insisted she get treatment but they must have been afraid to shatter their own false towers of power and influence over people if they preached true freedom from religion.

Parents and the authority figures we trust have a huge influence on our inner security and emotional stability. When we are reacting from fear of who we are, where we came from, why we exist and we don't have any foundation that is not conditional we are put in charge of our own feelings. Im not talkiing about basic life lessons we learn from burning our hand on the stove, I talking about when we are betrayed and used by ppl who have authority over us and somehow we believe we deserve it but cannot recognize that. It can become a cycle that we revisit sometimes just because we feel something, anything as we imitate those who we looked to for guidance.
Wife and I had a dream of having a home where we could take care of children who came out of bad homes. Wife was great with children and they knew she loved them. She had a deep understanding of the need for love and guidance for them. We both felt that being good parents was our top priority since we had children in past marriages when we met. We did foster care for a short while and enjoyed it. My wife had a problem teaching children who became adolescents about adult behavior mostly because she had problems with that herself. The inner images and influences of outrageous behavior coupled with rebeloiusness and bitterness given to her by her Mommy and Daddy never got completly dealt with and she still felt that was adult behavior somehow. Being adopted and moved to another state would have been the best thing for her and her brothers and sisters. Her Mom and Dad were canidates for mandnatory sterilization if I ever saw one.

W02,

You are way way too young for me to date even if I were available and I am not. You are definitely a young lady.

Get your H's tush to a doc and get the diabetes treated this is very very serious.

Oh, and the good news about being a young lady, is that eventually you will grow up to be a lady. NOW THAT is something to aspire to. Women get nowhere near their peak until 40-50, it is the optimum combination of looks, experience, and insight.


That is why we are all working with you so that when you reach being a lady, your H will be around to enjoy his lady.

God Bless,

JL

Hmm, look at this thread...lots of valuable info here. I started my journal last night and I am actually 5 pages into it. I have always been a writer and give me something that I will not have a writers block on and I have a hard time stopping. I just wish I could find "me" again. Since becoming a wife and mother, I have almost quit doing everything I once enjoyed.. writing, painting,and drawing. I almost feel I've lost my identity, but I'm not sure if I ever had it. What effect can this have on a marriage? I asked my hubby what I meant to him and he said I was a wife and mother. I asked a while back to write down the top 10 things that he likes about me and the number one thing was I was the mother of his children the number 10 thing were my "big boobs"(quoting him).
Question for women..do you try to be the best lover your spouse has ever had if he was married before? I have a tendency to be like that. I asked him if any ex ever asked him things like"what turns you on" and he said no. That just got me thinking, did they not really care about him?

Now, what exactly is a "lady". My moms version was basicly be a prude, wear skirts and dresses oh, and lets not forget to be a doormat. I know she says she isn't a doormat but, people have walked all over my mother so much you can see footprints in her forehead. Yes, I feel bad for her, she has had many lifetimes in her (she's gonna shoot me, but she should be proud of her age) 64 years.

W02,

What is a lady? Oh Man! this is complicated but I MUST give it a try. A lady is a woman that acts and moves with grace.
A lady is a woman that know who she is and what she is.
A lady is someone that is in tune with herself and her needs and in tune with those around her.
A lady is a lover, a friend, a supporter, a leader and she does all of these things with seemingly effortless ease. Yet, she works, prepares, plans, and executes to acheive her goals. One of which is to act with grace.

Finally, a Lady knows how to handle people while protecting herself and those she loves.



And NO his previous W's may not have been better, but even if they were, they were also women that abandoned him, making them much less than you.

Think about it.

JL

Try Proverbs 31. Read the whole thing


Also this Proverbs 12:4
"A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones."

You are willing to love your Hubby and learn how so you are on your way allready to becoming what he needs.

I hope he will come to this forum if he needs help in healing and doesn't try to "White-knuckle it" to much.

Get advice on how to proceed with that if he is willing.

I do love proverbs 31, but I don't completely understand it. Does anyone know that website about the Proverbs 31 woman? I do feel like I am the woman that is better not to live with most of the time. Will the info in "Surviving an Affair" give me more info on how to act better? I think I need to go back and read love busters on here again. It's a lot to take in....Any ideas on what respect looks like to a man? I think I have a hard time with that one.

I told him about the website a while ago when I first came to it and he wasn't interested...he said he doesn't like getting involved in things like this. He is a big believer of keeping things between us, but he seems to be ok with this since I am in a sense making my self look bad and therefore can still wallow in his pity. (yes he plays the pity card, of everyone cheats on him...not only his wives but he had a gf cheat and she still hounds him about once a year...she was a catch, she was cheating on her husband with him and would go to her husband during the day. Hubby didn't know she was married when he got involved with her. My poor hubby was an OM at one time...makes me wanna cry to think about what THAT must have been like)
I feel like I have discovered some things about myself and how to apply the book I ordered. I just need to look at all the As as one, I acted as though I was having an A with one, even though there was more than one and it wasn't a particular person. It was the addiction.

I didn't think you were better not to live with lol sorry. I felt proverbs 31 was something to aspire to accually. None are perfect.
Never saw the website.
Eventually when you are doing a good plan A hubby should respond to hope all is not lost and lose some of his gloom and doom attitude. Then if he gets into the books, He might wish to work on your relationship too here, or in counselling to a level better than before.

Hang in there W2

I was just meaning that I have a temper problem, a yelling problem, and a "going over the deep end" problem. I feel like I am the contentious women that a man is better to live without. I have a hard time with that because, well, we have a 2 yr old and a 7 yr old and they have both become understandibly clingy and it's getting next to me. Waking up several times a night...I'm not always firing on all cylinders in you know what I mean.

What is a good example of a good plan A?

Wait a minute, I think I just figured something out. SortedSomeOut said to W02 "when you are doing a good plan A hubby should respond..." I have never read about a wayward doing plan A. I have always read that plan A is a means for BS to stop the A. I keep reading about plan A and plan B as things that BS's enact to end the A and have wondered "so what is the plan for a WS who has ended A, is remorseful, and in NC to win back a BS who is moving to plan D?" I have thought of myself in plan Z, plan A played out from the point of the WS who has been abandoned.

W02, plan A has always been described as a BS being very pleasant and meeting all of the EN's of a WS in order to provide incentive for a WS to end the A and work on recovering M.

So, how should I do a plan A?

You don't. Plan A/B is not for your situation. You need to amend your H. Better question would be how should I amend him ?.

Your case is very complicated. You need IC, H needs IC and both of you need couple counseling. About BiPolar, Therapist/Psychologist/Psychiatrist are trained to do diagnosis but I would go straight to find psychiatrist b/c they have more diagnostic tools that are not available to others and could give you med. However not all doctors are equals. Warning about BiPolar, many peoples that suffer trauma like you show inability to regulate mood and could be misdiagnosed. I would not labeled myself with BiPolar, get the pro to diagnose you, until then you are not.

My heart ache reading your H tries to find more palatable reasons for your waywardness. You need to amend him.

-rh-

I meant a wayward type of plan...how can I amend him? We are starting counseling and I really hope it helps...as fore the psychiatrist, I don't think that'll ever happen because we have no insurance and limited income...$100 once a week is out of the question. I am careful not to label myself in front of certain people as bi-polar. I know I have a lot of issues, bi-polar would be an easy answer to a lifetime of problems. When I started my journal and went back and really thought about things, nothing about my life has been typical. Everything about my life has been crazy, even before birth. I just want to feel somewhat normal. I don't want my current normal to be my "normal".

Yes ,be careful with bipolar. I was mis-diagnosed and was given paxil and balooned to 200 pounds and was a mess. It impacted my life big time and my relationship with my son and H.
Go to a good doctor.
take care
blessing

I only see $300/session psychiatrist, $100 would be a real bargain. I would start with local country resource. For example, in San Mateo, CA. We have 800 number for Access Team for finding mental health referral and resources. The lower your income, the less money you have to pay, many people pay nothing. County's mental health provide very low or no fee, if you have limited income you might qualify for county/state/federal health care. Ask your M counselor.

Yes, I agree BiPolar is easy answer but irregardless of the disorder you know you need to get to the bottom of this to help you change.

You have the right attitude. Now how to amend H ?

Read and follow How to Survive Infidelity. Pay extra attention on Part 2 & 3.

Read and follow MB basic concept (you could buy the book but everything are here) . Love is a choice and InLove could be build/restore. Harley's method is all about falling InLove and staying InLove.

Ask & get IC for you and for you H . M is a multiplication not addition. Both of you need to heal and be 100% moving on from the past.

Remember one spouse to lead the recovery of M, you has seen proved of that here. Read JL's post to you, he is right on the money about your H. Many will lend you hand, keep posting and when you are ready you should start lending hand to others. Your insight as ex-WW trying to be W again would be appreciated here. Invite your H to the board and learn MB together.

Take care of yourself. You have made a big mistake but you are willing to own it. You don't have to pay for it for the rest of your life. Give your best to work on your M and if it doesn't work you need to give your self permission to end this and let your H find his own happiness. Road to recovery is not easy and w/o pain but it seems your H is willing too.

Take care. -rh-

Im sorry about the Plan A ref, I was refering to healing.

redhat gave great advice. thier are counselling and shrinks available cheap or free. look around.

Its worth fighting for so hang in there.

Bi-polar is so mis diagnosed and is the popular catch-all. Mood swings from depression to exsileration<sp> can happen to a lot of people along with the chemical changes that come from extremely bad circumstances. Wrong thinking and poor choices can attribute to bad thinking,circumstances and chemical reactions also.

Somewhere I read how when a persons thoughts are changed and the moods stabilize the lines on the surface of the brain along with the chemistry change.

Psalm 16 is a good read and I think it refers to this as "lines"

5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.


I know.. it seemed far fetched to me too at first, but the more I thought about it...

Oft times a betrayed spouse of the same gender (or even opposite) can help another betrayed spouse. Back when I was more active, I held many hands of guys just like me. And yea, they held mine.

I extend an open invitation to your husband.

Larry

I agree that whether there is ever a diagnosis or not, a WS is always to take the actions needed to make amends and restore the marriage. And you definitely don't want a wrong dx. Having a disorder actually complicates things rather than makes them easy. Besides the exasperatingly misunderstood label attached, it's just another factor to have to be aware of and monitoring ALL THE TIME. I WISH my dx had been wrong. Unfortunately, every time I see a new psychiatrist they just confirm it. Boo Hiss.

The following would be a good plan A for you. However, unlike a plan A which can only be done for a few months due to the embalance between giver/taker, the following is a lifetime plan for you to consider and use.
God Bless,

JL

OK, we finally saw the marital counselor/shrink...sorry I can't spell the correct word. I checked around and this place charges according to income. It was just an evaluation, but he thinks I may have bi-polar disorder and will need to see me a few more times before giving an RX. The strange thing is he seemed to think Hubby might need meds. I never realized he might need something for his depression, I didn't realize it might still be bad for him 5 yrs later. He gave us some home work to do and he seemed to have a lot of knowledge for his expertise. He wants us to start off by reading "The Five Love Languages" which seems to be very similar to Dr. H's ENs. At least in my opinion. I was relieved that this shrink follows the belief that a married couple can sustain the "in love" feeling. I am looking forward to our next appointment.

. I don't think MC/shrink could give med., at least in California. Only Psychiatrist could. But anyway, someone will evaluate you and yes "The 5 Love Languages" is a good sign.

You need to ask him to refer you a shrink for your IC and a shrink for H IC. MC can not be your IC nor your H's IC . Your IC can't be your H's IC .

Oh my. You had a good day. I am so glad for you. Yes, by all means, your husband could benefit from depression meds. Meds and counseling could get the two of you on the right track.

All the best

Larry

Awesome W02

I'm not sure if hubby will do the IC that the MC wanted him to do. He wants us both to have IC. I just can't wait to feel like a "normal" person. I wished hubby would have spoke up more, I gave him plenty of chances. When we got out he said I talked too much and seemed slightly irritated. Before we went in he said he wasn't going to talk, but then said a few things. I think he was very uncomfortable and said he didn't think it was anybody else's business to know anything about us. He said something about not getting away, the MC thought he meant no date night, no he meant no family vacations! But, before I knew that I said that I didn't know how to talk to him, when we do go anywhere all we do is sort of stare at each other or look around. I don't think hubby knows how to talk to me either, he talks at me, but not to me. Our first anniversary we went out and never said a word to each other other than how the food was and wondering how our 4 month old baby was. (which she was not fine, she screamed the whole time we where gone,which made us feel horrible and we never went anywhere until the next anniversary and at some point the kids just never left us. Hubby and I haven't been alone in 6 yrs). On a side note, hubby and I watched Couples Retreat,it made up want to go to a tropical place. We are talking about going to Florida, because I refuse to fly. We have family there, so even though we'll have the kids we will have plenty of "alone time". Oh, and hubby has already lost 15 lbs! He's also worked up to an 1 hr on the treadmill! Go Hubby!! It's like a competition between us. He'll challenge me to walk further so I can say..I did 3 miles in an hr, beat that! (Course I can run, he can't but I'm sure he will be running eventually). His belly is already shrinking. I just hope I can look amazing for him by summer( I just need to lose 30 lbs for right now). I just hope he'll be ok when we do go(to Florida). Hubby and his first ex wife went to Florida and she left him right after they got back and she maxed out his credit cards. I really hope he'll be ok, is there anything I can do to help him now and when we go, it'll be a few months before we do get to go.

Something that might appeal to him:

"I am old enough now to realize what a good man you are. I am going to not only make up for what I did for you, but also what your past wives have done. You deserve it. I love you."

Larry

You need to help yourself before you could help him. Call your MC and get phone# for your IC. Your MC is a keeper . , and not falling asleep on his/her duty. Also in MB we believe that one spouse to lead back to happy M, a fulfilling M.

There is no quick fix. You need to follow MC's recommendation asap.

Have you learn MB Basic Concept ?

Side question: What is normal to you ?.

Normal for me would be in control of myself and not letting my emotions rule me. To be at a somewhat even keel...I don't like this happy one day and depressed the next at almost no reason, like today I am so down I feel like just crying. I am starting to see my own patterns and I'm getting close to a what I call "crazy phase" After taking a good look at myself I go through some craziness right before spring. Today, I need to go to the store, but I don't feel like being around other people, this is just so nuts, yesterday I was ok, almost upbeat and optimistic. I am so tired of riding a roller coaster!

Thanks for sharing, I have no doubt that you have mood disturbances and you might need BiPolar and AD med to control it temporaray. You need to be evaluated by a psychiatrist.

You are battling many issues at once, your past that was not under your control, your past that was your fault, and today's M issues. It is amazing you aren't having nervous breakdown already. You need to take care yourself.

Meanwhile, you could try relaxation techniques, my favorite is Yoga classes. Force yourself doing healthy stuff that you enjoy in the past ... like reading books, go to movies, get a massage, manicure, etc. Any thing healthy that pump up your serotonin and dopamine level.

Have you learn MB Basic Concept ?.

-rh-

I have been reading the MB Basic Concepts...I have been reading the 5 Love Languages. My language is physical touch. My hubby has almost no desire to "speak" my love language. He does not like to hug or kiss or anything else that requires non-sexual touch. I am so frustrated that he won't really read the book.

How do you know if you should hang on or hang it up?
He says me trying to get him "to speak my love language" is trying to change him.
All I have ever wanted from him was his touch and his kiss and I can't have it. It makes me feel tortured.
I don't see how meeting all of his EN's will get him to meet mine. If he feels so closed in when I try to hug him, I don't think this is ever going to work.

(((((wife02)))))

All this is such good news W02. I am following it every day.

W02,

Why would your H be afraid of touch? Do you suppose he has been trained by other women in his life, that his touch is not desired? Do you suppose he fears your reaction if he touches you?

Tell him when you want him to hold your hand. Tell him when you want him to take your elbow and "escort" you someplace. Tell him when you want the feel of his hands on you. And when he does these things, don't take them for granted, thank him very much for holding your hand, taking your elbow, or any other contact you have requested.

My bet is that he has been trained for years to NOT TOUCH women. You need to train him that you ENJOY his touch.

God Bless,

JL

I was trying to talk to him last night and I asked him why did he love me..his answer? The kids. I was trying to explain ENs and Love languages and that I wanted to know what his was so I could make him feel like I loved him, well it all got down to that the book love languages was describing a fairy tale and marriages can't be like that. He tells me to ignore my EN(which is affection)and just deal with it. The he goes on to say that all I want is sex and sex isn't the most important thing, I told him that sex was the only way I could get him to touch me. And he didn't understand. He still insists that I am trying to change him. I am starting to just sink down ...I feel so depressed..I even tried to prove I wasn't after sex by not trying to initiate anything. He tried touching me after we went to bed, but it was just all wrong. He was trying to joke and play around and touched me in such a manner it just added insult to injury. He heavily laid his hand on my head and tried to stick his fingers in my eyes and nose and I am so not in the mood for this, but I forced laughter anyway. I tried earlier to find out how I can make amends for what I did, he said he didn't know. I asked him what is it that I do for him that makes him feel loved, he said he didn't know which started the if you loved me you wouldn't have done what you did. And the vows don't mean anything anymore speach. I am starting to feel hopeless, after all the talk of how I love it when he touches me, he had several opportunities this morning to reach out and touch me, and he didn't. It's like he doesn't care what my ENs are, and yet he doesn't want me to leave. Which was something else, he thinks I am plotting to leave because every woman that has cheated on him has left.

I'm sorry wife02. There are so many thoghts in my head, but they are all more an outgrowth fo my own situation rather than necessarily helpful for you. So I'll just say that I a thinking of you and hope you have a better day today.

Thanks, I hope for a better day, but I don't think that's today. I just feel so empty and void. I barely have anything to give my children today and I think that's so bad. I feel beyond drained today...I just don't know how much more I can take before I break.

Well, he actually reached out to kiss me before he left for work, and it would have been so great if he hadn't said "Compromise". All it did was remind me that he doesn't get anything out of my kisses. And it reminded me that what I felt when he kissed me wasn't shared. I'm trying to just think that he kissed me, it must mean he's trying, I'm really trying to ignore his comments.

When we were talking last night he said he liked this girl in his sophomore year and he didn't know how to ask her out. He said he was mercilessly and relentlessly teased about it and may be he then just forgot about how it felt. I think he meant that kind of spark or how it would feel to kiss...I know what he meant, I have a hard time describing the things he says.

wife_02 said:

"Wow, flighty, emotional, artsy girl...that's me!! right brained? Are you left-handed?"


Just a little OT here, but:

People who are left-handed MIGHT have reverse dominance of hemispheres. However, this has not been shown to be true in quite a few cases.

Also, IF you actually do have true reverse dominance of hemispheres - that is, if you are left-handed, and your brain has the reverse typicality of control, with language dominance in the right hemisphere, music and art in the left (which the majority of people have in the opposite sides), then you would NOT BE RIGHT HEMISPHERE DOMINANT - you would be....

left hemisphere dominant, if your leanings were to art, music, etc.

Do you get it?



Anyway, this is really something the pop-psych community has people mixed up about. The numbers are not as people might believe, and the data does not truly support as much reverse-dominant brain occurrence than you might believe.

And one of the main ways we actually find out? People who are left-handed have strokes. That's when we really know for sure, in many, many, cases.

Odd, but unfortunately true.

SB

So, the brain isn't reversed? So the left hemisphere of the brain controls the left side? I am left-handed, I always embraced it. I thought it made me somewhat unique. My adoptive mother however, is right handed and writes lyrics and music, and she has a beautiful singing voice(she LOVES music). I always thought since she had that ability that she should have been left-handed. Interesting, I have always found brain studies to be fascinating.

When you first meet someone you bond on the things you allready know right? Like you both probably had no desire to ________(fill in the blanks). The hope for intimacy that you both had inside yourselves for each other was something that needed to be nurtured over time. As you knew each other more and continued to agree on what love was to each of you, desire to care for each other physically grew.
Partly because the world we live in doesn't put sex into a place of intimacy first but rather makes it a performance issue, you did not wait until you sorted out your baggage before you entered into a physical relationship. Happens every day and it will continue to happen for most relationships because we have a drive to have a relationship with someone built into us. We know intuitivly that sex is a big deal and that something happens chemically inside us that brings us closer, so we tend to jump in and use it to repair our lonliness and sometimes to put the past behind.

Its been said that men are stimulated visually and women more from atmoshere and suroundings. If we look at nature and the behaviors there it is simple to see that to mate this is ussually true. This is nature though and animals don't have the added stimulation of thought and the chemical changes that effect our minds. This adds other criteria to a happy relatonship and its a double-edged sword. We respond to what we remember and we understand consequences so we contemplate, plan, and have expectations. We also revere honesty with our mates because we know that if that person is so connected to our inner being that they are just like our own bodies or "soul" we also know the pain that comes from hurting ourselves. Someone that we have let in so deep can make mistakes and we understand that, but lies and deception that is not owned up to wil eventually tear apart intimacy and trust.
The other half of that sword is because we understand our weaknesses and those of others we can forgive. Intimacy with someone sexual or not who has forgiven us after we have come clean is more valuable than just the act of sex itself to most people, unless you are only interested in the act itself. Sexual intimacy is/was very important to me in a relationship but it was not the sex that was important as what was behind it. Someone wanted me.
This is why porn works so well to stimulate men. When they see a beautiful woman showing her body, (which he desires anyway naturally and is stimulated by it), she is saying to him in his mind, "I want you" He buys the fantasy that its simple or uses the image to fantasize but his need to be alphamale and be the only one is built in and if he is not getting respect from who he is with, he fantazises he is getting it with her. Or maybe he could live the fantasy if "Things were different".

Your H has a lot of past issues that he has been dealing with for a long time. I believe he really loves you but doesn't trust you now. He should have went straight to a Dr. when he started to act different after you guys got married but instead by not seeking help he aggravated issues that existed inside you. In effect he created his own disaster because he was so deeply damaged from the past he resorted to clamming up and protecting himself. Then feeling rejected you went out and made it worse because you didn't push the issue based on honesty. You could have insisted he go to a doctor and if he didn't leave the house on what we all call a Plan B. If he continued to live in the past pain and assumptions that kept him safe instaed of reaching out for help then when you left he would have helped him. Reguardless of what he "Thought".

The pain that both of you have suffered from past relationships has taken its toll yet again on both of you and your marriage. He was so locked up and afraid that its almost like he created the problem over again. You played right into it but still you did have a choice and you are willing to work on that and own it.

If you guys work on this marriage and fight for each other as you spend the time to get the help you both need you will have intimacy beyond what most ppl have. His desire to touch you will come back I am sure, As sure as I know he wnts to be the only man in his womans life.

If either of you want to play the blame game and leave then what can be done anyways. It takes two working on the marriage relationship at all times to turn it into the galvinized one you guys can have. One where nobody, past present or future could get between you and he.

As far as getting it to work I hope you continue to try. I didn't think you were the quitting type looking for an easy way out and I assume you know that this is worth fighting for. Keep trying to work on healing him as you protect yourself from the feelings that are effecting you OK? I am pulling for you.

I was trying to talk to him last night and I asked him why did he love me..his answer? The kids.
This may be where he is right now. The fact is, he hasn't left the home, and that tells you that there is more to it than what he is willing to say. But maybe it should be worth it to you that the kids are the connection to you - for NOW. Take that, and accept what he is willing to offer to you, for NOW. He could have said, "I don't feel ANY love for you." Instead, he said he loves you - and the thing he sees is very concrete. This tells you that he thinks in terms of the things he SEES - so that gives you something to work with. The things you DO for him, that produce RESULTS are the way to help him see your love for him, and are the things that will build his love for you in return.

Remember his words, and look toward the deeper meaning. He is a person who looks for RESULTS.


I was trying to explain ENs and Love languages and that I wanted to know what his was so I could make him feel like I loved him, well it all got down to that the book love languages was describing a fairy tale and marriages can't be like that. His life experiences right now tell him that FANTASIES are garbage. He is right. They are not something he can trust - he has given his trust to the emotional side of himself many times over, and this has FAILED HIM. He has experienced the betrayal of many lovers - and now is being asked to drop his defenses and expose the core of what he sees as his deepest self. That core, what makes him FEEL LOVED, how he both expresses love and senses it most deep within himself, really is guarded right now. So he is telling you basically that THIS ISN'T REAL. Because he cannot trust it to be that way.

Again, YOU have to build the concrete proof for him that it CAN BE. He must see you build it first, in order to trust that you are willing to do the work - all on your own - before he will be willing to expose any of that core. Do you blame him?


He tells me to ignore my EN(which is affection)and just deal with it. My guess here is that he feels violated. He probably sees images of you with the other men, and cannot get himself through those images at times. He may compare himself to them, not feeling up to to the comparison, may feel you thought they were better than he was, or perhaps the images are just too powerful and painful right now. This is common with betrayed spouses - and some of this may be carryover from the other betrayals and not even reflective of your particular affairs. Also, he may have sensed the betrayals when they occurred, and your withdrawal - his past experiences may have given him "spidey-sense" for affairs. At any rate, to expect him to want to meet your need for physical affection right now is probably too much. You will have to put your needs down until HIS ARE FILLED. This is called

SACRIFICE

And unfortunately, the fact is, you will have to make many sacrifices before this ride is over.

The he goes on to say that all I want is sex and sex isn't the most important thing, I told him that sex was the only way I could get him to touch me. And he didn't understand. Of course he didn't understand. Because sex isn't the ONLY way he has in order to touch you. Here is yet another example of the extreme language we discussed earlier. You tend to be an all-or-none type of person. In order to save your marriage, you will need to find a way to look for MIDDLE GROUND - because most problems are not either-or situations. Most problems have more than two solutions, black-or-white. Look for those. For example, he did try to touch you in a playful manner, which angered you (you describe it next). This is probably his way of making a point to you - that affection and love can be expressed physically in MANY FORMS, and do not necessarily mean SEX EVERY TIME. Allow him to meet you there, and look toward those events as his expressions and attempts to touch you lovingly. Because - this is exactly what that was.



He still insists that I am trying to change him. I am starting to just sink down ...I feel so depressed..I even tried to prove I wasn't after sex by not trying to initiate anything. Instead, why not just remove all of the pressure - entirely? Sacrifice, and let him know that you intend to do it. Tell him, "I love you. I want you to understand that I love you. I don't think that anyone - male or female - should be pressured to have sex when they don't want to. So I want to cuddle with you, but when it comes to initiating sex, I want to try a period of six months with you. During that time, I won't initiate sex at all. I will leave it up to you. But, I will initiate cuddling - can we agree on that? I can cuddle with you, but I won't try to start anything sexual. That way, I can get some physical affection, and you won't feel any pressure for sex."

See if that relieves the tension he feels.

And my guess is, somewhere in there, he will initiate. It will be natural. Your job is to make him SAFE in that time. And keep your mouth closed about any sexual feelings you are getting during cuddling. Do not pressure him. Make sure he is safe. Watch this work.

He tried touching me after we went to bed, but it was just all wrong. He was trying to joke and play around and touched me in such a manner it just added insult to injury. He heavily laid his hand on my head and tried to stick his fingers in my eyes and nose and I am so not in the mood for this, but I forced laughter anyway. It was good that you laughed. He was trying to make things better, and he was making a point.[color:#CC0000]


I tried earlier to find out how I can make amends for what I did, he said he didn't know. I asked him what is it that I do for him that makes him feel loved, he said he didn't know which started the if you loved me you wouldn't have done what you did. And the vows don't mean anything anymore speach. [color:#CC0000] Your reaction to his "If you loved me you wouldn't have done this" and "the vows don't mean anything anymore" - are pretty revealing.

You call his comments a "speech".

Yes, you have heard this all before.

You will hear it again, and probably many times. He hears it in his head HOURLY.

You don't get that - because your desire is for him to MOVE ON from that mindset.

He cannot.

You haven't done the work yet. And when you react to him opening his feelings to you in the way you did - and I can tell how you reacted because right here you say it was a "speech" - you set the process back. YOU - YOU - YOU set the process BACK. He isn't doing that. YOU ARE.

I say that because your reaction to his words are not helping him move forward! Right then and there, you look him straight in the eye and you tell him that you KNOW THIS GOES ON HIS IN HEAD EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY. And you also tell him that you know you nuked the marriage, but your every waking moment is dedicated to a plan to mend each and every broken part of it. That your mind and heart are focused on this, and he will SEE CHANGES IN YOU. And that you know he needs to see your changes first, and that you are working every day to make those changes.

Then, bust out your LIST of EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS that you have made up so he can see the things you are working on to make sure you are more prepared that another affair will not happen (remember these? the passwords, not going alone anywhere with other men, etc.????). GIVE IT TO HIM, so he can SEE IT.

Remember - he must see YOUR changes first. Your husband is a concrete kind of guy. USE THAT IN YOUR FAVOR.


I am starting to feel hopeless, after all the talk of how I love it when he touches me, he had several opportunities this morning to reach out and touch me, and he didn't. It's like he doesn't care what my ENs are, and yet he doesn't want me to leave. Here again, you are focused on what YOU need. Start meeting HIS NEEDS, because you cannot expect your husband to do the work in restoring your marriage. You dropped this bomb. Clean it up.



Which was something else, he thinks I am plotting to leave because every woman that has cheated on him has left. No kidding.


Schoolbus

I do not want to play the blame game...I want to fight but I'm getting weak(depressed). I have asked him how can I make amends and he said he didn't know. Every time I ask a question about what makes him feel loved, or what he wants in our relationship I always get I don't know. I was so sure domestic support was one of his EN's because he wants the house clean, but he says it doesn't make him feel loved. He says it takes away from the stress at work. Could he just be confused or am I? Wow, I wish he would come on here!!

I did try to get us into counseling when we had been married for 2 years and he refused several times...I thought he was going to go at one point and then backed out saying he didn't need it and he was fine. It was the day of the appointment when he did that. I tried several times after that, but it began to wear on me and being young and dumb at 23 I began to withdraw in some ways from him. There was a wall between us, but I'm beginning to see some light coming through now. When I remember us then it was just so bad..he was so withdrawn.
He says it's not possible to have a marriage like what's described in the love languages book. He says it's a fairy tale.
How do I protect myself from the feelings that are effecting me? I've always been an emotional sponge.

The answer to the "reversed" thing:

The right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, and vice-versa.

In most people, the language centers of the brain, auditory centers for language processing, sequential processing, speech centers, and the concepts of sequential reasoning and word-related tasks reside in the left-hemisphere. It is detail-oriented, and part-whole minded. People who tend to be dominant in this hemisphere are time-oriented, organized sequentially.

In most people, the right hemisphere controls prosody, music, math, artisic tasks. People who are right hemisphere dominant tend to be holistic thinkers, better in math and spatial tasks.


Left-handed people have right-hemisphere dominance in the sense that their right hemisphere controls the left hand, and that the right-hemisphere motor strip is the major control center for their body, and is the best control center for their body.

It does NOT mean that their right hemisphere necessarily also is mapped for language - meaning that their brains are completely and totally differently mapped than the majority of the population of the world in terms of the usual brain mapping and development of the brain: that is, the left hemisphere being the dominant hemisphere mapped for language, auditory reception, speech, etc.

That is what I was trying to explain.

HOWEVER, in some of the left-handed population - this IS the case - their brains actually ARE flipped! And the right is mapped the way the majority of the world's population have their left hemisphere mapped. They are TRUE reverse-dominant folks.


Pop-psych has made the notion that everyone who is left-handed has the reverse dominant characteristic also. Just not so.

I do not want to play the blame game...I want to fight but I'm getting weak(depressed).
Don't fight. Just set a new course, because that is really what this is! It isn't blame - because that gets you nowhere, and you already know that.

It isn't fighting, I know you mean fighting as in "uphill battle" fighting. What you need is a plan for yourself. A plan for LIFE - living new. That's really not very hard, because you simply DECIDE what you want of yourself, and then LIVE THAT WAY. Sounds crazy, right?

But you DO IT. That means setting that course, and NOT DOING WHAT YOU DID BEFORE. Because what you have always done HAS NOT WORKED. Because what you've always done hasn't been the right thing - it has been an EMOTIONAL and IMPULSIVE response.

Not a thoughtful and controlled response.

I think my best advice to you would be this:


Don't respond to anything until you have waited 15 seconds.




I have asked him how can I make amends and he said he didn't know. Every time I ask a question about what makes him feel loved, or what he wants in our relationship I always get I don't know.
He doesn't know. Isn't that fair? He doesn't!!!! He thought he did - and then WHAM - it was gone. Again.

So he is BLANK right now. I was pretty blank for about two years after d-day!!!!! B-L-A-N-K Blank. My H wanted me to tell him what to do, how to do it, all of that. At one point I asked him to just shoot me, because maybe that would take away the numbness I felt.

You have to understand - he doesn't know, because this pain is so completely inside of him that it goes completely through.

You have to do what you think is the right thing right now. Just take your best guess.


Fill out the EN Questionnaire as though you were him - give it your best guess - and then meet the top three every day. Do that, and stick with it EVERY DAY.

I was so sure domestic support was one of his EN's because he wants the house clean, but he says it doesn't make him feel loved. He says it takes away from the stress at work. That's actually good. Keeping the house clean is one thing he can SEE that you are doing. My H did the same thing, and although it was not high on my list, it relieved a lot of my internal pressure and stress. It made our house feel like "home". Don't stop that, because although it might not be something he says makes him feel loved, it is probably still somewhere on his list. Right now, EVERYTHING counts.


Could he just be confused or am I? Wow, I wish he would come on here!! He's confused, count on it.

I did try to get us into counseling when we had been married for 2 years and he refused several times...I thought he was going to go at one point and then backed out saying he didn't need it and he was fine. It was the day of the appointment when he did that. I tried several times after that, but it began to wear on me and being young and dumb at 23 I began to withdraw in some ways from him. There was a wall between us, but I'm beginning to see some light coming through now. When I remember us then it was just so bad..he was so withdrawn.
He says it's not possible to have a marriage like what's described in the love languages book. He says it's a fairy tale. He's not trusting much. Meet his needs anyway.


How do I protect myself from the feelings that are effecting me? I've always been an emotional sponge. Being an emotional sponge is not a way to live your life.

Emotions are fine, for certain things. But they are not something to allow your life to be ruled by. They get you into trouble. They take you off track, and they can allow you to unnecessarily wallow or get elated when you really shouldn't be in that state at all.

I say this because in your case you seem to be letting emotions just grab you and then you run wherever they lead. Not a great habit! If you "feel" angry, you run there - sad, you run there...and this is not working well. Look how feeling "needy" led you to six men.

Let's think about how to control them.

Take 15 seconds of time. When you get used to reacting to things AFTER 15 seconds, you gain that one element of life you lack


a controlled response.


At this point, you feel something and BANG you go off.

How much different would your life look if you took just 15 seconds to think about something before you said or did anything first?


SB

Thanks! Got it.

You gave me a lot of info to take in...you have my hubby pegged, SB!!

So, he seemed very happy that I had dinner started when he got home and it was what he enjoys eating and he was in a good mood.

Should I just stop asking questions for right now? I am starting think that the languages book was a bad idea...I asked him to fill out the questionnaire in the back...he said he remembered doing this before and he said his first ex wife had the book. I hate anything that brings memories of her back to him. I think it starts his record in his head going stronger than it had before. I just want him to be happy again. I hope this isn't a DJ but I'm not sure if he's been happy for our entire marriage.
I'm not sure how the 6 months thing is going to work...I just mean he's not much of a cuddler...I'll do it though...I just want him to know I love him. I want to meet his needs, I just want to know what they are without a shadow of a doubt...I want his love tank overflowing!

Question about the sex thing...should I quit surprising him with oral sex in the shower. I ask him first if he wants it. Or should I just let him ask for anything sexual for now? I never really thought I was pressuring him for sex, since I rarely get actual sex with him. He just seems to want me to concentrate on him, which I don't mind so much, it's just that I feel like I don't know...it's confusing. There has been a time or two where I have felt pressure to do oral when I didn't exactly want to and enter my baggage I do it anyway because I know he likes it. I think the 6 months thing is a good idea...I'll think about how to approach him on it and tell him about it tonight.
I really want us to have this deep love for each other that no one or thing can tear apart.

Awesome job SB

Wow, SB, you are so knowledgable....ok, 15 seconds...deep breaths, don't react right away. I always look forward too your responses, sometimes they might make me cringe, but, truths can do that.

w02

It can take a WW six months to defog.

It can take a long time for a BH to start recovery.

You can push him through it the way you can't push a WS through their fog and withdrawal.

It's as if you have to plan A your husband back into the marriage and recovery.

Get him to come here. Tell him there are many BH's that have things in common. To be punished for the rest of your life is wrong. However it's not the time for you to tell BH this at this time.

Schoolbus, this is the second time today that I have had the impulse to bloviate on what someone has said. I will hold myself in check by simply saying "Awesome job lady!"

And W02, don't you dare stop surprising your husband with, uh, dinner on the table or whatever. Couple that with a fatuous look on your face like "did I do good honey," and simple male response hard wired would be, bemusement and flattered.

Guys are easy and simple. Food and whatever get our simple mind's attention like nothing else.

Larry

Well, hubby came home for lunch(like he does all the time) and we had a nice time. I really believe he's trying to see I'm trying to meet his EN's. I had a glimpse of him before we married today, I think I saw just a tiny bitty glimmer of hope in his eyes. I don't know if this sounds crazy or not, but he's always a little short on time when he comes home, so I thought I would try to save him some by cutting the re-heated steak(I didn't want him to waste time cutting it when he could have been ...he usually complains when I do stuff like that, saying something like i can cut my own food)
I think we are going to be ok and eventually be fully recovered.

Hope, first time I have seen you say that.

Good day happening.

Larry

Just got Surviving an Affair in the mail...so far it's a really good book. A lot easier to read than Boundaries.

I thought this day was just going to be horrible, but it's turning up to be pretty good.

I was very glad to hear about how you saw a twinkle in his eye. I really pray that you two get the proper counselling and over time find how to bind each others wounds and heal as you put the past behind.

Good news O2

I am glad others pitch in to help you out.



Again, in MB , one spouse could lead the M to intimacy.



You give your best shots, you exhaust every avenue and do it right ... if H doesn't moved an inch, you should move on and find someone will. As you see, if you fillin his EN he will response.


Yes, the different is he will want to change willingly if his love units are overflowing.


You have a good day today. Don't give up. Implement MB properly ... if H doesn't move then you could tell your self ... it is time to go.

I saw you have a good day today .

-rh-

W02, leave us take a look at some things.



Clueless, he is. Both a previous wife and you have tried and he is a rock on the subject. . .



Bleeeech. You are trying to get him to meet your needs. Marriage is about a partnership, not a maid who gives great head.



Of course, if you don't get what you NEED, what is the point. You are giving what HE needs, well, lately anyway, and it should be a two way street.

He doesn't want to change. Oh puuuuleeeeeze. That is guy talk for "why should I?"

Your husband is scared to death of intimacy, period. He is afraid. He fears. He won't open up because he is afraid of being hurt.

I gotta tell you this.

MOST guys who are that way got that way when some teenage female walked all over them (to show her power) when the guy was infatuated as only teenage male (and females) can be. Yea for the PC crowd, there is a reverse component that has adverse effects on females.

MOST guys who stay that way do so because they are afraid but mainly because they never got over the teenage trauma. Ever hear of the female saying (conventional wisdom), "Some woman must have really did a number on him?"

And its true.

The situation now becomes what to do about it. Recognition of the problem and probable cause (or at least reasonable suspicion) is likely to be as stated above.

So what DO you do about it? I got some ideas. Do you or those who read this thread?

Larry

I do think there was teenage trauma, he talked about liking this girl in high school, but he doesn't say much about it...

How can I help him be comfortable with intimacy? Is there anything else I can do? And what can I do or say to let him know that a marriage is a partnership and that he needs to give a little as well. I don't want the moon at this point, I don't want him thinking I'm trying to change him, he just either is too afraid to give any intimacy or...(I can't even seem to finish my thoughts anymore) I hope he would like to be closer with me...he seems more open with this friend of his and I'm jealous of the his manner with her. I know it's because he's not threatened by her. There's no red flags at all with them...I just hate he can't be like he is with her with me, does that make any sense?

He just wants to be safe and he believes he cannot trust anyone IMO.
If he doesn't get out of this place he is he will remain lonely and its a shame.

There needs to be a lot of IC for each of them and then MB principles... then time.. but it can be worked out if they both will do it.

Huh, first I heard of this. What is the deal?

Larry

Something that I didn't think was important....I mentioned it because, well, she's not the only woman he's comfortable with...as long as he doesn't have an attachment of some sort with a woman, he seems at ease with them. It bugs me . I don't think of it until he talks to her or reads Facebook messages. There's nothing red flag about it on the A end of things...or could this be on the edge of EA without either of them realizing it. I know that her and her hubby have been rocky for years and she doesn't have "love" feelings for hubby...she tells me she looks at him like a brother, and he says he looks at her like a sister and the last time I said anything about it hubby seemed genuinely repulsed that I would actually think that way. Can someone meet a EN and not fall in love persay? I'm not worried about them having an A...I'm concerned she might leave her hubby for a different man..but that's her business and I rarely talk to her about it....Anyway, what do you think this is, an unknowing attempt by hubby to have ENs met without the fear of being hurt? He's had a friendship with her long before I ever met hubby. She also calls him her best friend. This irks me at times because I feel I should be at the top of my hubby's list and I feel I am most of the time, but I don't like sharing my spot.

I wondered this too. I want to know more about this woman thing. Wife 02, if you are like me, the "failure complex" is th death knell of success. If I am trying someting or working hard and I get caught up in the "everything would be fine if I was just ding this GOOD ENOUGH" mentailty, I might aswell just hang it up. The "good enough" hangup is the quickest way for me to fail Once I get it into my head that no matter what I do it will NEVER be good enough, it's almost imposible to find the motivationto continue. I know that isn't good, but if yu are like be, urge you not to think of doing MB or anything else as trying to be good enough or do it well enough. That' what's going on with me right now, and it is counterproductive.

So, you are created by God - you ARE good enough. And - at least in this life - perfecion is NOT an acheivable goal. All you can do if live February 28th 2010 and following as well as possible. Five years ago you made some hoorible choices. Between then and now you haven't been perfect - guess what? Nether have I, and neither as anyone else who is breathing right now. Do what you know to do now. Be what you know to be now. That is all you can do, all you can control. You are a worthwhile person.

Unlike many other people, I believe that a man and woman can be friends without an emotional affair (or physical) intruding into the relationship.

BUT

No friendship, male OR female with an outside person can trump the friendship relationship with one's mate, period, end of sentence.

You are trying to do a head job on this guy. By that I mean figure him out and try to help/change him or get him to realize his potential to be a mate and partner for you.

How is that working for you? He isn't cooperating and has all sorts of outside influences that direct him to stand pat, so it seems to me.

Larry

As billy crystal said in "when harry met sally"

Men and women can not be friends, then he said well maybe the ugly ones, then he said nah, pretty much after awhile you'll want to nail them too.

Having a friendship with the opposite sex is the first step on the slippery slope to infidelity.

Marriages have ups and downs. Needs such as recreation an conversation need to be met by one's spouse. Temporay leaning on the OS friend for this and other needs is where affairs start.

This is why I will never be married.

All of the friends that I have ever had are men. I simply cannot relate to my female peers well enough to have an extended friendship.

I just don't know what to think of this, I know he wouldn't have an A with her. He's not attracted to her, that and he wouldn't hurt want to hurt her husband(which is his friend as well). I know him well enough to know he would't cheat. He's had plenty of opportunity to cheat, he tells me of all the woman who's hit on him. I almost always know where he is and when I ask him things he more than happy to tell me what he been up to or doing. No red flags except for the friend (that he has been friends with for more than 10years). I'm just concerned that there might be hints of an EA. They are moving to another town and it's going to be harder for them to see each other, but they chat on Facebook, it's not the physical stuff I'm worried about, I think she's meeting some sort of EN...they mostly talk about their one interest, cars. And any time I express interest he seems very mildly irritated and doesn't seem to want me to talk about it. I really want to learn all there is to know about cars and I want hubby to teach me what he know (I grew up with a mom who told me what to be interested in and I wanted to know about cars then, but she said that's not what girls do) He taught me to change spark plugs and wires 7 yrs ago and that was the last thing he taught me how to do. I try to follow what he tells me, but it's like he's talking over my head and I feel overwhelmed because he never started explanations simple. I always wanted him to get a model engine from where he works so I could learn but he never has. But, when he talks to her he doesn't have to explain anything and I'm not sure if the spark in his eye is that he's talking about cars or to her.

Why do you need him to learn cars ?. There are many books and local community classes about cars. You are trying to get him to fillin your EN affection and missing the point of his EN conversation/companionship. Yes, it would be perfect if he is willing to teach you with attentions/cares and he gets his EN met too. Surprise him. Learn about cars on your own and when you have enough knowledge you could practice "car talk" with someone or even join him in conversation.

-rh-

I think I surprised him today when I learned something about the car parts he is buying...I think he get's little annoyed because I know so little and he has to explain, and the way he explains just gets me lost, so I think I'll try and learn on my own.

. When he realizes he could converse with you, you need to train him to fillin your EN ... paying attentions. Throw a admiration in there too ... blow up his ego .

-rh-

What's the best way to show admiration to someone who "doesn't like"it and can't seem to take a compliment?

You don't do it. It is an LB. However you have to see if H doesn't like it or reject it b/c it come from you or just about from everyone ?.

-rh-

W02,

Showing admiration isn't just gazing into his eyes and saying "Gosh Dear you are the greatest."

You can show admiration by admiring him. You do that by smiling when you are around him. Smiling when he does somethng you like. Just reaching out and patting him on the back when something works well. You can show admiration but simply being happy around him.

Men pick up on that sort of thing. Have you ever paid any attention to how to male friends interact??? They put each other down. They make jokes at the others expense. The give each other a hard time and then...one will buy the other a beer. Heck when I was a batchelor my best friend drove 700 miles and hardly exchanged a word until we go to gas stations and such. 40 years later we still think of that as one of our best trips.

My point is that men communicate very differently than women and we often need things from women that they have no clue about. It is part of what Harley talkes abou with regard to meeting needs and paying attention to how they are met.

Men on the whole lead fairly solitary lives because we are not as social as women. Therefore what we value is someone who has our back no matter what?

If your H feels you approve of him. If he begins to feel that you are comfortable around him, that you like being around him, he will start to open up to you, but it will very likely not be words at first, but in how he responds to your actions.

This is a process w02 and it takes time. You have some seeds to plan, then you have to allow them to germinate. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

That is very interesting...my hubby was very solitary(I think more than most, mostly because his friends always want something from him and when he needs something they disappear) when I met him and had spent a lot of time alone.....I have noticed that if I am happy around him, he seems happier. I am going to have to work super, super hard to be happy around him.

I am working hard to full fill the one EN I KNOW he has which is Recreational Companionship...and since we don't go anywhere that often, I make sure I sit with him whenever I can. He really seems to enjoy that. And it didn't take long to figure out what it was...that and domestic support. I just thought about the things he gets the most um....I don't know if upset is the right word, maybe stressed about if he doesn't get it.

Your H doesn't seem like the average cocky guy. Ill bet that is connected somehow to how seriuos he is most of the time.

I agree that you being happy is directly related to how he feels. He seems like he is of a very social mindset but not a controll freak type. Lots of appreciation but not to obviuos untill he trusts the intentions right now.

I can sympathize with the fair weather friends thing. It might be a good thing if you guys can find friends you both can trust and like who are a couple. But thats prob down theroad

My hubby is so far from cocky, I think that's one of the things that attracted me to him. I love his personality...but his biggest complaint about me over the last few months was my lack of sense of humor...as soon as I started laughing more at things he says (not phoney, I really think he's funny...I just haven't really felt like I could laugh since I've been in a depressed mood lately)I haven't heard as much complaints about my lack of humor. I love to see that look in his eye after I have actually laughed at something he has said. I guess even though I did think it was funny, he had to hear me laugh.

The friends thing, I have the hardest time making friends and I only have 2 that aren't fair weather and he might have 1. But it just seems the more we have helped our friends the less they want to help us. He has lent out money...has yet to get it back...he never needs to borrow money, sometimes he just wants people to maybe come over once in a great while and they never do, we always go see them. He's really aggravated by it, but he doesn't let it show, but I can kind of hear it in his voice. I just wonder if he feel the way I do about these fair weather people...I just feel left out sometimes. Hubby is one of the very few people who has been there when I needed someone...I just want to be there for him. It's just harder when your the stay at home mom that's dependent on the husband for everything.

W02,

Will you please read your last post and this quote

Just read it and tell me what you see, and what your H sees in your marriage or would want in a marriage, give this quote and what you just posted.

God Bless,

JL

JL as allways is onto something.

I have a question W02. How does he feel about his parents marriage? If he admires and respects them have you ever studied thier relationship? Are you close to his Mom? I remember you mentioning them before and that they were married a long time.

They say a boys first girlfrind is his Mom. That is where they learn about how to treat a woman and what to expect in return. If Dad was a good husband also maybe you could learn some from them. Its no surprise that people have to learn how to be married. They might have some insight that you could glean from. Him too..


You mentioned before how H implodes when you get really upset. With me I hated seeing my W get upset and my first reaction is to help her and restore her "happiness". Sometimes that was possible and sometimes it wasn't. It depended on what circumstances surrounding her dilema. I allways tried to keep a cool head and be reasonable and compassionate because my wife had panic problems. Her problem sometimes resulted in really bad choices and even though I knew that her bad choices might not be my fault intellectually I felt like they were. This was stressful to me and could drive me into depression if I let it. I'm not saying that you get upset over nothing. I just wonder how confidant your husband feels that he can meet your needs and how you getting upset effects him.

You can see that Hubby gets major Ens met when you are happy. Someone said in an earlier post just be happy around him and that was good advice. He needs to feel adequate for you in every way you need. Every man needs to feel that his wife is happy with him and in your H case prolly because he is such a soft touch more so. I think he might be intimidated when you get upset as well as not getting that this is how you express emotion. There is a fine line between understanding our wifes tempoary emotional state and getting over it and feeling inadaquate and a failure. It can be scary and stressful.

I applaud your complete transparency here. You state just what you think and felt,feel along with the ability to see how your husband reacts. I am probably jumping the gun here but its possible that you are very instant in expression and he is more reserved with his emotions, somehow ashamed of them. Its such a good thing to hear he laughs with you and is responding. At some time you guys could be dealing with any problems that might remain between you and putting them all behind. You might feel like you are falling in love more deeply than ever in your lives. I sincerly pray so.

W02,

Have you read what I asked? Do you see how much power you have over your H? Do you see where you can feel needs in him that his friends and previous relationships could not? Do you see that it doesn't take "grand" gestures, but consistent happiness with your choice of him as your H. What he needs is your touch, your smile, and you with him. Is that so hard?

He knows he is defenseless against being used by friends and such. He KNOWS he is really defenseless against you. That is why your affair hurts sooo much. He knows what he thinks a real man would do, but he cannot do it. He cannot leave you. You have such power.

You need to realize that this man will move heaven and earth for you if you let him and show him what you need. But, you must also understand that people that have been burned are very aware of thier weaknesses and can only step back as protection.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I am not sure how he feels about his parents marriage. With what I know he was close to his mother. He was her favorite...his dad wasn't around much and his bother was his dad's favorite. His dad had some kind of possible affair when he was in High School and he helped his mom with that and his dad came back to his senses. It's strange to hear him talk about it, he does not hate his dad at all and the way he describes it, it's sounds like his dad was foggy and he understands his dad was not himself. He didn't have a good relationship with his dad until after he was married the first time.
His parents don't exactly get along very well, they love each other but sometimes it's hard to see. His dad tends to be reserved, but I only see his parents maybe once a month. So I don't really feel I know him that well. His mother is quite nice, but I think she was harsh with discipline.

He has never reacted in my opinion well to me getting upset...I usually just want a shoulder to either lean on or cry on, and he just doesn't seem to want to give it. I admit I tend to be very emotional and I'm working on reining back my reactions. I do react fast and he doesn't, he requires great reading to determine sometimes, unless he's angry. He tends to explode when he's angry, but I guess anger is a safer more acceptable emotion for a man to express.

I honestly feel like I am more in love with him now than I ever have been with him, I'd like to think I'd take a bullet for him...but you never know how your going to react when put in a situation like that.

I never really thought I had any power over him. He always says that I can't make him do anything...and when I think about it I have gotten him to do just about everything I've wanted him to do (except go to church, or anything else that might be considered social unless it's friends...he wants to throw a bbq this summer)
I just hope that I am doing a good job of showing him that I am happy with him.

Showing him carries more water than telling him for guys. It is the way we are. Women tend to be more verbal than men. Guys tend to look for what people do instead of what people say.

Larry

Almost finished reading "Surviving an Affair". Found it to be surprisingly insightful.

Now you are getting into Harley teachings. I think you will be amazed at the results.

Larry

An interesting choice of words: "surprisingly insightful." That sounds to me like you were expecting babble, a sales pitch or something quite contrary to your belief system.

My own take on Harley's books is that he writes with a clarity that neither condescends nor preaches. He exposes basic truths that are easy to comprehend no matter what reading level the reader possesses. A rare feat, if you ask me!

Yeah Fred, I like it that he keeps it simple. Unfortunatly us humans make things harder than they have to be.

I think so many of us are looking for a way to make up for lost time or compensate for pain we experience in our relationships. I know I did that in certain ways in both my marriages. Sometimes, we can ask to much from another person and recruit them to our cause when in fact we are still alive and kicking so we need to process stuff till we are ready to be happy by ourselves. Then we choose to enter in with all the baggage neatly in its place.

Ah. but to have the honesty and humility to realize we are human and need instruction.

The principles in MB are the same ones in place when things were good in my times. I didn't know MB and wish I had. So I can see and have experienced much of what he teaches. The great part ppl don't understand is its still the two ppl, unique as they are, making the marriage work together.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life

I thought the same thing.

Harley's method is good for young and old although it seems to work better when life ages us a bit. In addition to what you point out, he is the only one who seems to write in such a way that both genders can get something out of it.

Larry

Folks,

There is an old saying that I use with my Post Docs and other colleagues.



I have forgotten who made that quote but it has guided me for decades. I think I enjoy Harley's approach because it seems to me he took that quote to heart, whether he knew it or not.

JL

I was expecting more of a gender specific type of book, and may be a lot of babble. I always see these "my husband cheated" type books and never one that handles both genders. I did find the lack of remorse from the woman in the book surprising though. Is my remorse "normal" or just not typical?

What is "normal" or "typical" ? Does it matter here to recover your own M ?. MB is a CBT (Cognitive Behavior Tx) way of building love, step by step ... you have to follow the steps and all of this will be distance memory.

Aside from this ,you need to count your blessing having BH still willing.

-rh-

Your remorse is a sign you have the capacity to be empathetic and its healthy. You came here to take accountability for your actions and wanted to find out what happened. Its the best thing you have going for you, knowing you have a conscience and seeking a way to clear the pain of guilt and frustration.

Its healthy to put things behind once you have identified the problems but some ppl are to quick to move on with a patch job and only take care of surface issues, ignoring the hard work. These ppl can seem non-remorseful but sometimes they just want to put on a positive attitude because that has allways been part of thier relationship hopes and/or thier coping skills as people. The danger is allways living in denial, hiding our heads in the sand believing problems will just go away and accepting less than we can have if we really put ourselves over the fire and bare our souls to each other in accountablity. We can't just accept bad situations and suffer with our relationships and still have trust,unity, hope or very deep intimacy.

The MB principles if practiced overtime will not just fix the relationship problems but bring out our own unique "issues" that make us unhappy or contribute to emotional stress. It takes time though as many here can attest to. We will change as we grow older and the tools used here will keep us connected to each other as we grow old together.

IN your case both of you have white-knuckeld through so many things and still care for each other and you deserve the chance to heal both individualy and collectively. I beleive you will

I didn't really realize that I was "white'knuckling" this as well as hubby.
With some things hubby doesn't seem to want to "go there" he has told me his way of dealing with all kinds of things is "white-knuckling it". I just wish he could look at everything and try to move past everything in his life, not just what I did. I think that's why he always has a "blank mind" I ask him every once in a while what he's thinking when he looks particularly pensive and he will either say nothing or what he has to do (pay bills, what he needs for his car, or truck...surface things). I really want to know what goes on in his mind, or if he's white knuckled things so much that nothing is really going on in there.
I know things go though my mind often, smells trigger things with me fairly often, songs trigger memories and I know they do for him, he just won't tell me what(he doesn't offer info like he used to). I hope the counselor will help him open up.

With the diabetes, he went to the doc and he's on meds for that and high bp. His blood sugar is coming down and he has an appointment with a nutritionist about his diet. I'm not looking forward to it, because I think it's going to be difficult to figure out all the exchanges and how much this and that can he have. It was hard enough to figure out things for myself for weight loss...is it really that difficult? I am looking forward to him losing weight since he'll have more energy for the kids. Maybe a little more energy for me as well.

It will take some time to figure out the calories and balance his sugar. If he really does a good job with it though he will be happy he did. You guys too will benifet from the changes in diet.

One thing I noticed with me, being a diabetic, Hwne my sugar is high I do not process emotion as readily as when its normal, (around 120 althogh most normal ppl are around 90). High sugar keeps my mind going but the stupor of it has a effect of just plugging on instaed of reacting to stimuli around me.

After H is in good control of his sugar for a month ask him if he has more calm energy and less stimulant need like coffee driven energy. He will probably notice some differance also. Maybe not.

There are tons of books on diabetes and cookbooks that help towards eating healthy that will help everyone lose weight and feel better. If you dive in with this with him and help him as you guys learn about diabetes you will be depositing major LBs in the whole family. As Hubby gets used to the diet the cravings for bad food will diminish over time.

You are probably right about H "whiteknuckling" it more than you. I think you are expressive and your coping mecanisms are different than his. I think your doing well W02 and in touch with them. Keep working on your marriage and it can be made more preciuos than gold.

Picked up a diabetic cook book a few more and I think we'll be good to go...
Question about love units, is it possible that hubby can deposit love units by simply being himself? Well, I used to date this guy long before I met hubby and it didn't last long, he had so many annoying habits that it would just drain me. It would seem he withdrew love units as soon as he deposited them( He had a lot of love units deposited and by the time it was over he was so far in the red it was rediculous). Needless to say I broke it off with him, everything about him seemed to repel me. Why did I try a relationship with this guy? Well, I thought he was stable and had it all together and boy was I wrong and so I'm glad I didn't marry him! But, when Hubby and I are having a good day, it just seems he's meeting ENs by just him being him, well, when he's happy. Not necessarily from anything I did to cause his happiness, just from him having a good day in general.
Also, what about this, I know it's probably weird but I am attracted to his scent. You know a natural smell that all people have. He smells so good to me and even he thinks it's weird. But, I think he smells wonderful. The other guy, his smell repulsed me, it's not that he smelled bad like B/O type of bad, just bad to me. Sometimes I feel wrapped up in my nose. Well, so far Hubby and I are doing well and I'm excited about it!

Try JL's idea about learning new things to organize your new foods. First organize the info, then simplify.

1. Get rid of all fatty, sugary foods in the house. Just bag them up and remove them. Either give them away or toss them in the garbage.

THIS WILL TAKE AN HOUR OR LESS

2. Then, the first week is the hardest while you and he STOP EATING fast food, any fatty foods like pizza, and any sugary foods. YOU CAN EAT ALL OTHER FOODS>

3. Keep eliminating favority fatty/sugary foods for another week.

SOON, AFTER TWO WEEKS, ALL CRAVINGS FOR FATTY/SUGARY FOODS WILL BE GONE. ONCE THAT CRAVING IS GONE, YOU CAN DO ANYTHING.


4. Then, start getting into high vegetable meals with fewer carbs. sTART USING GOOD CARBS LIKE CORNMEAL, WHEAT PASTA AND WHEAT BUNS. Remember your house has been cleaned out of all bad foods. And you have not gone to any drive thru's or eating fast foods for awhile now.

5. You are well on your way to overhauling your bad eating/cooking habits. Now you can gaze at healthy cookbooks and make foods that taste great but are not SUGARY OR FATTY!!!!

YOU GO GIRL!!!

Liking the way your man smells is real normal for girls I think. The first time my wife took one of my T-shirts when we had to be seperated for a night and she told me she wanted to sleep with it it sounded strange..

I liked the way she used to smell then too. Theres somethin about it when you love somebody.

Hubby thinks it's so strange that I love his smell...if he leaves early in the morning for work I'll sleep on his pillow. I think if I ever had to go out of town for any reason, his pillow case will come with me. I think if I could, I would sit and sniff him all day.


Now as for the fatty and sugary foods, at least I won't have much to dispose of. Pretty much just the brownie mix...Since I was trying to lose weight the house is full of healthy foods and LOTS of veggies. Lately we've been having salads and lean meats. (the salad is actually a craving I've been having for the past week).

I always loved when my WH would wipe his hands on my towel. It has his smells on it. I sleep with his pillow and in his sweatshirt right now. I LOVE the smells of my husband!! Wish he was here more often so I could have more of them.

I was sad today, I had to wash the sheets and the thought creeped in my mind, what if something where to happen to him and I wouldn't have his smell on the sheets to remind me of him. I made that thought go away very quickly or else I would have been in a heap, nothing gets me as upset than the thought of losing him (I don't even dare think of how I would feel if I lost my children, I just don't let my mind go there). I asked him a couple of times if the life insurance was paid up so I don't have to worry about the house. I think I have such a smart hubby to think of stuff like that....I hope I never have to live life without him. My only wish if our family if forced to deal with such a tragedy, that I'll have the strength to go on for the sake of our children. You know, he told me how he wanted to be laid in a coffin and I just started bawling...I just hope that I don't have to deal with it.

I am having a problem....I can't explain intimacy. Hubby thinks it's sex, and I cannot seem to explain it to him. He still thinks that all I want is sex and that's not the case. He keeps saying that after someone gets married sex stops. I don't understand....I was trying to just open up to him completely and trying to get him to understand some things and the whole, well if I truly feel this way about him, why did I cheat just keeps coming into my mind. How can I say what I'm saying...I told him I still get tingly when he kisses me...I have pretty much always gotten tingly from his kisses, and he doesn't feel anything. I told him that I was afraid he was going to leave me if he met someone that made him feel the he way does me. He told me that was his fear. I fell in love with him and who he is, there isn't another man out there like him and I wouldn't want to be married to anybody other than him. And then, those thoughts come creeping back of how could I cheat on him. I feel trapped by my own mind sometimes. I feel like I am banging my head against a wall, here I am telling him how I feel when he kisses me and I dare to cheat! I could just shake myself....suicide even entered my mind a time or two but I know that's no answer.
Now, should he feel something when he kisses me? He even says that sex isn't that great feeling wise...I know what he means, I still feel like something is wrong with me because I don't get the heart racing, sweat inducing, mind-blowing reaction stuff going on. I tend to blame him a little for that because he doesn't do anything but expect me to do the work. He says it take too much work to do anything to me and I crave the intimacy that comes from the mind blowing stuff. All he does is tell me I have two hands. He seems to act like sex is just sex. I hate to say this but if sex was "just sex" to him then why is he so hurt over the As?? He used to say many times before the As if I wasn't happy (with sex) then go find somebody else. I don't get it. I want this intimacy with him and I can't seem to get it, I get glimpses of it now, but I guess I'm greedy because I want more.

Wife_02

Just out of curiosity, how much of marriage builder methods have you studied?


There is a disconnect there I don't understand.

Larry

what to you mean by disconnect there? I can clarify what I meant. There are things I just can't get out right sometimes when I talk about loving him. There is just something about him, something that I think is different and I love that about him. Yes, right now I feel loads of love for him and I would do just about anything for him. I am enamored with him, fascinated and all kinds of other words like that.

What about marriage builder's methods, like all of the basic concepts or any of the books? Note link to basic concepts on the right hand menu.

Larry

Reading, reading, reading! I found the instincts and habits interesting...still reading along those links...there is so much here at MB!

What your describing is not strange. Its just part of the process. It takes two things up front for somone to change.
To see that there is a problem and realise it
Time working on it with professionals who are no longer in woods lost and alone.

Whatever MB can do for you it will still bring intimacy to you both in a unigue way if you use the principles. He is afraid of feeling good about sex right now. This is to be expected reguardless of your circumstances. He has trust issues from way back allready and brought that to the marriage. Which in his part he fel back into a comfortable mindset after getting married by shutting down. It must have been a surprise to him also that he reacted that way when he was having great sex with you before marriage. But reguardless it happened and he went into protection mode.

The old stuff like "Sex ends after marriage" is a comfortable way to separtate the two when its easier to live two seperate lives outside the childlike state of trust for each other. The walls go up, and you can even cause problems with these protective attitudes.


You will need to see H into MB and believing in it before you see him embracing the concepts. He has been deeply hurt in the past and is protecting himself. Most men go there easily and there are a lot of other ppl out there who are part of "The He-man Women haters Club" where they can lick thier wounds together.

It takes time W02, Little bits of fog break away, the connection will come back, But anything worth having is worth working for right?

Hang in there

Will continue to hang in there for as long as it takes!

That you are reading makes me very proud of you, not that you need my approval or even want it.

Understanding the material is of even greater importance. Right now I am working with a lady who has read some, but does not understand anything. She also is resenting me a great deal, which is very ok. Better she gets mad at me instead of her husband.

Larry

What are some ways to short circuit an instinct...such as an angry outburst?

I don't understand the question.

Larry

I was reading about instincts and habits in the basic concepts section and Dr. Harley says you can't change an instinct but you can short circuit it and I couldn't quite figure out how to do that.

We can't change our instincts, but we can short-circuit their approach to a problem. If I have an instinct to have angry outbursts, it doesn't mean that I must actually have one. I can create new habits that prevent me from losing my temper. Bad habits are hard to replace with good habits, especially when they are driven by instinct, but it can be done. And, in marriage, it must be done if it is to be successful.


this was what I was referring to.

count to ten.

He he. . . Got to that one did 'ja. I applaud you, actually reading and relating. So many on here don't. The ones who do move to grown up status. The ones who don't are doomed to keep repeating the same old garbage, whilst expecting a different result.

What SSO said. . . Yep!

Replace a bad habit with a good one. When about to blow up, count to ten. Or:

1. Smile. Ok, grimace. This gives the other person time to run in fear or cower as their personality dictates.

2. Imagine that you are about to emit gas. Er, flatulate. This usually inhibits women and it might work. Or, it will run everyone off so you can blow up in complete privacy.

3. Don't let small offensives stack up to an explosion. Deal with them as they happen. Calmly state after each one that you have only three more before you go into orbit. The other person will want to film that for NASA.

4. Imagine that each offense you stack up is like having a baby. As you absorb and stuff more and more, the baby grows until you are going to the bathroom every five minutes. Just before you explode, you will be in the bathroom and the only result is a lot of echoes.

I will try to think of more.

Larry

It is such a second nature for me to blow up that I can't seem to think before it happens, is there anything I can do to put into practice before I get angry that might help prevent an outburst?

W02,

Ok this is an easy one. Well, it will sound easy anyway.

My father used to say the two great motivators in life were Fear and Greed.
I think he was right, but there are others as well. So let�s talk instincts. Usually, they are there to help us achieve something. So let�s take FEAR. What instincts do we have that help us address FEAR? The short answer: fight or flight. Right?

What is anger? It is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones: pain, anxiety, frustration, etc. You instinct isn�t to get angry, it is to protect yourself from�

So let�s say it is fear. If you cannot run from what you fear, pain for example, then you must put up defenses and fight. If you don�t want to fight, then you avoid, which is really running right.

Your habits and responses are not your instincts. The habits and responses are your defenses and you can choose a different way to defend yourself without changing your instincts.

Your H fears women. Why? pain from past experiences. What does he do? He pushes you away and avoids intimacy. Now his instincts also tell him that women are good, they provide many things to him, but his primary instinct is to avoid pain, so he defends. Now he could also avoid this pain by realize his instincts are right, but his method could be more fool proof. He could love you and encourage you to love him, so that YOU become his protector, then he doesn�t need to defend or run�he doesn�t fear you any longer. Has he changed his instincts? No! He has changed how he protects himself by having you defend him rather than he having to defend himself and he does this by letting you in and you proving that you can be trusted and will defend him.

Are you seeing what I am saying? An AO is the same thing. The instinct to avoid, pain, fear, anxiety, etc. is strong. This issue is how best to do this. Does anger really protect you? Probably not, but does for a short time, but the harm it does often leads to more of what you were avoiding in the first place by defending yourself with an AO.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Yes, you outbursting is a HABIT since you have done it for years. Habits can be broken by many means. Google "How to break bad habits" and find out how to break this habit.

You can use many methods to change and break this bad habit, and you will be surprised at how quickly the habit is broken.

I broke my bad habit of LB'ing on my husband when he confronted me about it and told me he was trying to be the best husband possible and I kept hurting his feelings and blaming him for stuff.

It hit me hard and I cried. I begged him to point out to me right away if I ever LB';d him again. I promised to never do it again but told him I may slip up a couple times.

Just like quitting smoking or quitting eating fats and sugars, you can quit outbursting and getting angry.

Once you stop getting angry and outbursting for good, you will feel such an accomplishment. Your entire life will be happier.

Ask your husband how he feels when you outburst on him. It will make you want to change that bag habit of yours. Ask your husband to help you change yourself.

OK...I have noticed the more I talk about this(AO) the more aware of it I become. I actually avoided an AO last night. I had ask Hubby for the remote to set the DVR, didn't have to change the channel. I even told him I wasn't changing the channel. He could still watch tv while I set it, three button pushes and I would be done. But, he wouldn't hand it to me. He kept it away, and kept a tight grip on it. And I'm sitting there and I realize I'm getting angry because I was frustrated. I was able to just take a cleansing breath, and just take 10 seconds. I asked him for the remote again and he's turning to hand me a different one from the one I needed and I just grabbed the one I needed and he calls me a b#$ch. I really don't get the whole control the remote thing, especially when it doesn't interfere with what he's watching. I'm also getting tired of being called THAT name. I broke up with a boyfriend years ago because he called me that, it just hurts. The worse I've ever called him was a butt, no not the other word I mostly tell him he's acting like a butt.

I will ask him how he feels when I outburst on him.

wife_02,

You would be surprised at the amount of men who view losing control of the remote is like losing control of the household. Like he is not man of the house if he gives you the remote. It's trivial, but some men do believe this. Also your husband feels he has lost control of a great portion of the marriage since your infidelity. He is holding on to whatever control he does have over anything.

He seems to LB you quite a bit. Calling your wife a B***** does not fly in my book. I called my wife that once when I was 20, (I will be 44 this month) I have not called her that ever again because I saw the hurt in her eyes when I said it.

Good for you for recognizing the LB'ing and short circuit process.

You just stop doing it. If you stop doing it long enough, you retrain yourself.

The problem here is not your AO's but that he is abusive. He is an abuser. I wouldn't tolerate that but about one time. I would politely show him to the door and explain to him he won�t be talking to me like that again. Use firmness when you explain this to him and leave your pistol in its holster.

wife_02

I thought I might help to answer this question:




I used to get angry very easily - I mean VERY EASILY!!!! Given my background, it was not surprising. Then I realized that this anger came from a source that was not related to the event that I was getting angry about. I was using a pot of anger about my past as ammunition for anything that made me even a tiny bit mad - and that I was inappropriately angry for things that really didn't require the level of anger I was using!

Let me explain. Let's say there's a scale of 1 to 10 for anger, and 10 is the most angry you can possibly be, ever. My past event should make a person 10. I store my anger in a pot, ready for use. When something makes me angry, I reach in the pot for ammunition, and throw it out there. Only, I ALWAYS GRABBED ENOUGH FOR A TEN! Didn't matter, I always used a 10 ammunition, even if the situation required a 1 or a 2. Like, let's say someone robbing your house and burning it down, that should be an 8 or 9. Losing your car keys and making yourself late for work might be a 2, but if there was an important meeting, a 3. Dropping a glass and breaking it, a 1.

Get my drift? You rate things yourself, it's YOUR scale. The thing is, you have to stay away from the ammunition pot that keeps feeding you that 10 all the time - because you don't NEED it for everything.

I didn't realize it for a long time.

But what a change in my world when I made that change! My marriage changed, my JOB changed, my LIFE changed. My entire countenance changed, because all of a sudden I was in control - and not the events of the past, not something I always thought was "instinct".

It wasn't. It was ME - out of control.

Wow.

Enlightening for me, wasn't it?

SB

As to your confusion with your husband and his previous statements about "sex is just sex":


He's having problems with intimacy because he USED to believe sex is just sex, and now he has issues with the idea of his "territory" and sex. He realizes that YOU connect sex and intimacy - and he fully understands this. The fact that he is standoffish and can't talk about this is because he DOES understand it all, not the opposite!

He knows that you were looking for intimacy, and that somewhere in this his attitude that sex and intimacy are separate had its contributions to your affairs does bother him. Just so that you know, many men (not ALL men, and also many women as well) are fully capable of separating sex and intimacy, and do have a compartmentalization feature for sex and love/intimacy. They can see the two as separate and unrelated, and therefore may say things as your husband said with "if you want sex, go somewhere and get it" because the intimacy part really does appear separate to them and may not seem a threat. However, your husband NOW has come to understand that this is a threat, and that threat bothers him greatly.

Only he seems to be the type of person who isn't a talker when it comes to processing his ideas and emotions - he seems to be the type who works internally. That's tough, especially on you, because you will have to read his behavior in order to know your progress. He will give you some verbal clues with short phrases and comments, but I suspect that's all.

Hope that helps.

SB

I guess the "remote issues" are issues that come up often in your household. If so, talk to him about it (not during a TV show) and figure out a solution.

He sounds angry at you still or irritated at you. You sound angry and irritated at him.

Why watch TV at all? Why not instead, get rid of your irritations and anger toward one another.

TV watching will do no good if both of you harbor hostility toward one another. Look, you could not leave that remote alone could you. You had to push and push him.

Both of you are creating problems for each other.

Also, if you loved him so much, HOW COULD YOU manage to flirt with, talk with, kiss, arrange a motel to have sex in, lie to your husband, make love with another man, and then go home and look your husband in the eyes having just boinked another man?

Ok, with the remote issue...I surrender it over to him as soon as he comes home, I wanted to set the DVR to record something I wanted to watch later, I had forgotten I could do that online so now he can have his silly remote and will no longer call me a b$%ch, well at least over that. He has however resorted to calling me that whenever I complain, if I say there is a dress I want, he says "want in one hand, @#$% in another and see which weighs more" or "want, want,want". With the dress issue I figured out how I could get it, but he says I just want to spend his money. Oh, did I say I can pay him back? I know it's trivial, but I planned on wearing this dress to at Easter,to a wedding, and it would be perfect to wear for our vow renewal if he ever wants to do that. How can I get him to see that I'm here because I really do love him and not because I want something.(Does it not say love that I will scrub the places he can't reach, pop the pimple on his back and squeeze out the infection on this nasty thing on his leg?I will do whatever he needs me to, I am always there now for whatever he may need me to do, even touch the "eew gross" things when he says "feel this")


A part of me feels I deserve anything he dishes out at me. All the names he'll call me and all the abuse he dishes out, I still think sometimes I deserve it all. I don't deserve intimacy from him, I don't deserve a fulfilling sex life with him, I don't deserve his love.

I have, of late, become a bit impatient with betrayed spouses who use the affair and other controlling methods to beat up the wayward more than is necessary to vent their hurt.

Keep in mind that while the adulterer owns 100% of the affair, both partners own 50% of the state of the marriage.

In my opinion, a betrayed can use the affair as an opportunity to expand their own knowledge and ability to have a great relationship, as offered by that man, Dr. Willard Harley, or they use the affair as a way to beat up someone who accepts it out of guilt.

One is positive, the other is negative. Each party makes their own choice. So long as you enable him to be a jerk, he will continue to so be.

Larry

How can I stop enabling him to be a jerk, how can I put a stop to these feelings that raise their ugly heads. I am starting to do well with AOs. I asked him how he felt when I do that and I all said was angry, I told him that I was fishing for something a little deeper and he says (in a baby voice mind you) "I don't get sad like you". Yes that made me a little mad, but I didn't say anything. I feel like he's patronizing me.

Your husband is very abusive...it's one thing to lash out occasionally because he is hurt, but to constantly berate you and mock you, totally abusive.
You will have a very difficult time recovering if he doesn't change,if you can recover at all because he is not onboard at all.
How can you stop him from being a jerk? Stand your ground and say that you are willing to fix what you messed up, but unwilling to be a verbal punching bag.

He is a man! "Angry" often means "hurt" with a man. Or with this man, angry means abusive.

It seems like you think love is popping zits and trying to get this fat, extremely unhealthy, enormous, abusive man to make love to you.

I think you need to learn more about what love is and what men are supposed to be like. Then you will be able to act as you should be acting in your marriage.

Why would you want to be around a terribly unhealhty, abusive, fat..... man and watch TV with him 8 hours a day and pop his zits?

Does this guy even have a job?

And I am reading back on your first post. You were married only two years when you cheated with SIX men? At that point, was when you should have gotten a divorce. What are you with this man for, money? Do you work full time? Any kids?

Yes, he has a job, yes, we have 2 kids and yes he has a stressful full time job(He has had this job for 6yrs now, he has always had work and is very hard working) and I stay home with the kids. He was not always abusive, he was not always unhealthy. I am not healthy myself, but I am trying to be and I lost 45lbs. Are you saying because he's fat and unhealthy that I should be repulsed by him and leave? Does the fat on him make him look repulsive? No, not to me. Not great would be a better way to describe him. Honestly it's the beard I hate. But, aren't looks beside the point? It wouldn't have come into play had I not mentioned his health. My next question is what are men supposed to be like? I also don't recall saying we watch tv 8 hours a day. I am fulfilling a EN by sitting beside him, and it went all wrong simply because I was taking the remote to set the DVR...I'm sure I am not the only one who sets DVRs here....And the whole popping zits thing, I was trying to say love is doing the gross things.
Do you not think a man is not going to be hurt when 2 ex wives leave him and for women no less that he isn't going to act hurt in some way?

How many kids do you have? You had a child right before the affairs, right? How do you know some of your kids are not the other men's bio children?

Well, lets see our daughter is 7, our son is 2yrs. She was born Feb 1, 2003, 8 mos. after we married. Our son was conceived late Jan early Feb 2007. And did you note the post title? I cheated 5 yrs ago. The As happened in 05. Our children are ours. I don't understand you line of questioning, I am here for help. I want my marriage to be whole, happy and fulfilling for both me and my hubby. I am getting great advice from School Bus, Larry and several other great people, but I feel attacked by you, Bubbles. Why is that? I kind of am getting the feel that you are a BS, if thats the case don't make yourself feel better by attacking me, I get enough of that at home. I feel horrible enough all by myself, without any extra help.

W02
I agree that he seems to be going off the deep end with the launguage he is using towards you. Im sorry that he isn't working with steve here.

You are sincerly tring to recover and owning your mistakes. Just keep working at it.

W02

Hokay, I gotta tell you this. He has turned into an abuser. And you know it. You can look up the Duluth Wheel of Abuse and look under several categories and there the two of you will be, him dishing it out and you taking it.

Advising you how to handle it is way above my pay grade. but I will think about it and see if I can come up with a path you can take, which will likely mean that you seek the resources that are available out there in the real world. I used to work closely with a battered women shelter and I know some people to ask where you go for help formulating a plan.

I do have a couple of questions.

How much education do the two of you have?

What kind of work does he do? I suspect he makes good money. I don't know why I am asking these questions, it just feels right.

Larry

Since I see you online, I guess you are hanging around.

What kind of work does he do? Work is a culture. A machine shop has one kind and an insurance sales office another. They both are a 40 hour immersion in how to act. That is why my gut told me to ask.

Larry

Yeah, sitting here thinking of how to word a response, let me see...Hubby works in an auto parts store as an assistant manager, but without the title and the pay. The store manager treats him as a hmmm, she treats him differently than all the other employees and holds him to a higher standard than the employee handbook and she is terribly two-faced with him.He was off one day, the weather was bad, and she calls. he was tired of being the one who "always answers the phone" so he chose to spend his day off with the family. He goes into work and is verbally attacked by her. She threatened his job and his position, which according to the employee manual he did nothing wrong. I saw it myself. He doesn't make "good" money. and he will soon not be able to get any more raises. He was told that his position is almost tapped out. If we didn't have children he might would have quit that day. I want him to find another job, but my ideas aren't usually good. It was my idea he take this job, I kept saying "Why don't you go back to work at blank?"..."you love working on cars, why not sell parts?"....on and on I went encouraging him to go back there. So he sells parts to stupid people who don't know the make and model of their vehicles, people that argue with him over something he knows is right and they are wrong, people get snotty with him on the phone. My hubby is VERY knowledgable about cars. He can identify just about every older model cars and trucks (USA made) by things like headlights and tail lights!! It amazes me, I have trouble telling the difference between a 55 chevy and a 56 chevy(you know, the belaires?) he's telling me about the tail lights and head lights again. It's amazing how he has an eye for it. Anyway, he went to Lincoln Tech to be a mechanic and he can't do that line of work because of stiffness in his hands. He can only work on his own stuff, but not make full time work out of it.
I don't think his attitude towards his boss comes from a place that women shouldn't work in autoparts or be into cars, I think it's coming from the fact that she's a women and women have hurt him.
Me? I have had two semesters of college and I was going for sociology. I didn't know what to do with it though, I'll tell you this, I got straight A's in Sociology 101. It was fascinating, I even kept that textbook. I have wanted to go into many things, but theres just no market for what I want to do. I have let many talents of mine slip, because I can't do anything with it...I can sing opera, big deal lots of people can and sound better than me because I'm not a high soprano. Everything I can do needs training to be good at it. Training takes money, and money I can't really get a hold of. Hubby doesn't think singing lessons is money wisely spent. (he seems like he doesn't take a lot of interest in what I want to do or like to do. I was in a singing competition once and he didn't seem that proud of me that I got in it, and one of the judges said I had potential. Do you know how happy that comment made me???)One of my secret dreams is to sing at the Sydney Opera House in Australia and I've never even told him. I was on the fringes of an EA once just because this guy I worked with thought I had a beautiful singing voice. I say fringes only because that it felt great to be acknowledged on something that I loved, and he was the one to get me to try it in the first place(I had tried it in the shower and didn't think it was real because it was just too easy to do it). It might not exactly been an EA, but I think it was getting close to it. He was a nice guy and had morals and knew how to keep a safe distance. There was a lot of "brother sister banter" between us and we fought like it. I knew to be careful about things like this. lol, good thing I was pregnant during this time, I was nasty! I also got really "into" my job and he hated that to, because I had to pick up for his slack and I got sick of it and started telling him what he needed to do and to hurry up. I think he started to hate me. My bosses saw how I was, and they were going to give me a manager position, but I couldn't leave my baby at home. I didn't go back....Sorry that was SOOO long! I hope you can read all of that!

I read all of it, quickly. You are easy to read, focused and you provide relevant information instead of being all over the map like a lot of the newbies I read who are emotional basket cases. You "Could" do just a wee bit better with the paragraphs, but that would be for others, I can read what you say just fine.

There are three or four national chains. From a counter perspective, the best seems to be O'Reillys. I haven't a clue what the back offices are like or employee stuff. That he is in the top bracket says it all. That Manager's bonus probably is linked to payroll in some way - maybe in just overall profit. So she doesn't like your husband because he is highly paid in comparison too.

You think?

More to follow, but don't let that stop you from talking.

Larry

I understand about the hands. It is all job based pay and quick makes the money. Say a certain job is two hours in the book and top guys can do it in an hour. Those are the money makers for themselves and where they work.

Got it.

Larry

He works in a dead end job and reports to a female who does not have his abilities, at least in terms of cars. She may be a better administrator or with computers or paper work or whatever to explain why she has the job.

And she would love to get rid of him if she could because he does know more than she does and is making top pay. That is an itch with a B.

He would like to make more for the family, I think he sees that as his reason for having a family, but he doesn't know how.

One thing about his job is his relationship with the independent shops who buy from his chain. That is bread and butter money for the chains. Walk ins are fine, but shops are where the steady money is from.

Thinking

Larry

Tell me how old each of you is. Save me from having to go back and look whilst I am busy sniffing the ground to see where it takes me.

Size of city - big, medium, small.

State if you feel comfortable telling me. - You can always post it and after I read it, edit it out.

Larry

I have the picture on you and still need to flesh out his some more.

Ok, I am thinking about him now. I got it, but would still like to know a bit more.

I think I have come up with some suggestions.

This is way beyond my pay grade $00.00. On the other hand, I think I can point in a direction you can take that will help you, so I am gonna try. It would be far better if you could afford MC from the Harley's, but that would probably mean a sum of cash you probably could not spare at this time. I am not going to do any counseling or coaching, just pointing and then, mostly using Harley stuff I have learned. I do hope that others will chime in with their own suggestions and out of that, can gain confidence you can make progress.

Larry

You where very close with where he works! He works at an AutoZone, the worst place in the world to work at!

I'm not sure why his boss doesn't like him, but I am sure she'd never get rid of him. If she got rid of him AutoZone would lose about 70% of their business for a very long time. A large magority will only go to hubby, because they know he knows what he's talking about. People ask for him by name on the phone. He came home telling me about this women that looked at him name tag and said he was the one she wanted to see. Her mother (whom we know)told her to go to him.

With this particular store, there is only one commercial account that really brings in anything and the walk-ins are the bread and butter, funny, isn't it? But I see what your saying about her. The reason she has her position is she has been with the company for 17 years, but she would be better suited with admin. My hubby was up for store manager, but she beat him out. I think now it's because the district manager is afraid of her?(She is very manipulative)

I know hubby would love to work in a shop and he has explained to me how they work, he would be a top guy, but he would either be quick and in pain or slow and not make any money and he doesn't want to chance it.

He hates not making enough money in his terms. He is hardly able to get car parts and he hasn't been able to go to this huge swap meet he loves in about 5 years for car parts(probably something else that made him withdraw, this thing is in July and he knows in Feb if he can go or not. It's usually a family thing and we go with another couple.

I just turned 30 and he is 37. He is going to be terrible to live with when he turns 40, he's already dreading it. We live in a small town with a rural feel, hey, but we have a super Wal-mart! We have some small shopping centers and a K-mart and a few (I can count on one hand!)nice restaurants. We live 45min away from a college town, I have to say that college town is like a ,hmmm, it's like it doesn't belong somehow, a bunch of weirdos, freaks, and homosexuals. It's a weird place. I'm not comfortable stating state, but I am in a mid western state(but barely).

I would love to do counseling with the Harleys, then I looked at how much it would cost and nearly fell out of my seat! Cannot let go of that sum at this point in time. It's hard enough to go to the MC we have and they can only schedule once a month since this MC is so booked.

He is in a rut and doesn't know how to get out of it. He blames himself and for complex reasons, often takes it out on you. He regrets not having the education it would take for him to advance in his chosen field, and he regrets that his hands have somehow been damaged so he can't make top dollar doing what he likes to do.

And he sees no way out, no way out.

Oh, the manager is easy. She is afraid of him. He holds her job in his hands. AutoZone is ruthless. If your guy left and she lost business because of it, her butt would be grass and the company would be the lawn mower. Tell him that. It might cheer him up. And he isn't going to run out the door to get even with her because that would cause him problems supporting the family. But it might cheer him up.

I wonder why they don't do more commercial business. Ask him. He knows. And he might even have a solution.

40 is nothing. At 42, I started a business. It grew to be a good size and it made good money over the years. If I had been fortunate to have the right wife who would have focused on saving some of what we made, we would probably have been very comfortable for life. My mistake. Oh well. . .

It took me five years to find the courage. It took me five years to figure out what to do. I had no help from a partner, I was just, uh, married. I wish I had known about MB back then.

Well, my goodness, I see a candidate to help someone just like me. Wonder who that could be

Every time he calls you an itch, leave the room. If he asks, just say you don't like the word even if he doesn't mean it. "Words hurt sometimes and that one hurts me."

Larry

It took me five years to figure it out. I studied and thought and schemed and plotted what to do, while carefully, carefully kept my job.

Five years I kept my eyes open, thinking, playing with it in my mind and studying. One day it all clicked.

Larry

Don't make it complicated. Men can't handle that. KISS.

He slams you:
You say, "Hey, I'm on your side."
"Well you weren't before."
"Yea, but I am now, so don't run me out of the room."

etc.

Larry

I like that one!

AutoZone is for sure a cut throat company...he knows her butt would be grass and he can't wait to move out of town.(to another AutoZone(sigh)). He thinks he'll have more oppurtunity at another store, though. I hope he's right.
I'm really not sure how to help him...I mentioned more school once and he is opposed to the idea, but I think it was what I suggested. He wants to open his own store for speed parts. there's nothing like that around here, and if we weren't moving I think that'd be a great idea. He has a great idea, and his eyes sort of twinkle when he talks about it. He even wants a garage in the store to install stereo equipment and simple parts. Maybe even to where guys who don't have a garage can come in and work on there own stuff.(my idea, but he might be thinking it too).

What are speed parts?

doityourself auto repair places have to be really, really careful because of liability.

Larry

Online courses in how to run your own business. I wish I had that when I started. Priceless knowledge. Like I said, made good money for a long time. Lack of knowledge and the wrong wife and it didn't stick like it should have. No excuse, just reasons, like how to do it - courses now available like never before.

Larry

Speed parts...hmmm, I guess it might be what I call them. Specialized parts for drag racers, parts for foreign race type cars. Stuff that AutoZone doesn't carry, or they have to order it. All the parts stores around here do not carry items like he would sell and there is a market for it here. I realize the need for carefulness with a DIY type of shop. I was thinking that there would be some type of fee to use the garage to help pay for insurance...or may be a waiver of some sort. I am actually going back to school, I was thinking that maybe I could take an online course for business and he could look over the work and learn some things as well. I would love to help him out. But, I just hear so much that married couples shouldn't work together, what do you think of that?

I am a former Master ASE certified Auto Tech and also was into the IM240 program from the start in the 90s. I had my own business also. I know the auto business well. Working on cars has been a sideline for me since I was young, but I was managing a factory at 19, and have worked in technical fields all my life. Telephone cable splicer, AT&T data tech, Scientific instumentation, all kinds of hi-tech crap. Also started colledge for sociology once...

Well jack of all trades.. out of nessicity really, now that Im disabled I am hoping to get back to colledge as soon as I take care of some health issues.

Today I have to go outside and get my sons 89 VW golf ready for a road trip. Its got 592,000 miles on it LOL. I need to think and perculate on what info you have given us before I can comment anyways. Yeah Autozone sucks, the woman boss is probably a manager because corporate didn't want her there.

I will bbl I gotta let this son ofmine mop the floor in comp room...


TTYL

Decent money, but not "Good" money. And mindless after you learn the basics, which doesn't take all that long if someone is willing to teach you. Other routes you took obviously increased to "Good" money as you learned.

Motivation is sometimes hard to find if you feel beat down by life. That obviously has never been your problem.

Jump in here. The lady needs it.

Larry

oooo, Hubby is ASE certifies in parts!! And the store manager can't even pass the test hahahaha. She failed it 4 times, and is CLAIMING she passed it, but hubby is yet to see the proof!
Btw, I just don't get how his boss has district and regional wrapped around her fingers?

I am a little excited and somewhat nervous at the prospect of going to the MC this week, my question is should I bring up anything that is about hubby (like the fact his two exes left him after 18 months and both left him for women?). He doesn't really open up about anything and seems to want me to do the talking.
What should be brought up?
We had a nice day today, we drove around country roads like we did in the dating days. But, there is still no romance, not even hints of it, but I guess I can't expect that. Just venting a little bit(do I have the right to do that?)

Vent all you want to. It is allowed. Venting helps the mind and contributes to well being. So yea, vent.

Uh, it is probably not a good idea to do it like your husband sometimes does, though. Vent here.

I haven't a clue what you might bring up with the therapist. I don't know him or his capabilities or direction he likes to go.

You might say that, "I am not always sure [husband] really wants to come here with me. But it is important to me and I want to thank him and tell him I love him right in front of you for being here with me."

What do you want to talk about?

Larry

What do I want to talk about? Hmmm, I'm not sure. Maybe I should start with having read through "The Five Love Languages" and that I practically underlined the whole chapter on physical touch, which is my love language. I am not sure what Hubby's are, but I am assuming for now that it's Quality Time...here it would be domestic support and just time spent together. I know his big one is domestic support and he needs to be in the 50's cuz I think he'd be in heaven, with the perfectly behaved children, and perfectly clean and spotless house.

Here is my vent, it is SO HARD to want to keep the house clean for him with almost no motivation, I need some ENs willingly met to have the motivation and the desire to meet his. I am not saying I don't want to, but he's not making it easy. When he started kissing me good-bye, instead of me kissing his cheek, I had all kinds of motivation and I could feel his Love Bank account growing...he's been taking withdrawals lately, and those good-bye kisses aren't making deposits large enough.

You know the song that starts out "I want you... to want me" well that's kind of how I am feeling. I want him to want to kiss and all that...I am so frustrated right now!!!

So have you two talked about the sexual frequency you both want and need and made a compromise? Maybe he wants it once every two months and you want it three times a week. See what it is and what things you like to do in bed and then make a compromise so both get satisfyed.
\
What i am saying is to learn to talk openly about the frequency of sex and each of your sexual needs.

I think you should vent and talk about both of your R historys and the marriage history---mention DR H and see if they are familiar with him also..

This program gives you guys the tools to work it out even to the point of what bagage your carring around


Sorry so quick and short response, gotta run at 6 this morning.

BBl W02, hang in there

Ok Im back for 1/2 hr. then off to pick up son. Its good to be busy tho.

Well I started my car business because i was tired of working on $35,000 pieces of scientific instumentation, modifiing, testing, packing and shipping between $100,000 and $300,000 a day of equipment and getting paid $10/hr.

I had three small kids and I could sometimes make $200 a weekend repairing cars.

Remember now, I didn't love tech work, I wanted to go to Colledge and get a BA, then go to law school, and get into civil law. Putting a honest roof over my familys head took precidance tho.

So I went and took all 8 ASEs in the two days allotted and passed 6. Worked for a chain shop and a private one or two. Then when I was throwing papers one morning before going to work at 7 I decided I was gonna start pricing and doing my own jobs out of my truck. I finished my other 4 ASEs and The emission tech tests and was booked two weeks ahead of time for two years. It beat the heck out of my body but the dream was to get a loan and open a shop where I could start making the real bucks.

Even with a stellar reputation and a solid customer base of 300 nobody, bank or friend, wanted to invest so I went back to work in the instrumentatuion place 6 years later a beaten man... lol j/k. But family problems played a part too.. thats another story.

The auto business is tough, I allways did the job right and gave a great price. I repaired many other techs problems and solved many mysterys. But that part just took hard work and determination. "If one man built it I could understand and repair it" was the rock that I held onto when it came to real challenges. It was dealing with pppl that was the challange that drove me buggy.

I thoughtI would be successful for a couple of reasons.
1.. I took pride in doing it right and being honest.
2. In time I would get better and faster and experianced and just look at the business driving everywhere on all the streets. It would never run out.

Getting a customer to trust you took a time of investment and funny thing is, if you don't charge them enough, they think they musta got ripped off. They all like to [censored] about how much it costs anyways. Customers will sell you down the road for $5 and they are likly to believe in big chains because of the commercials and of course the shiny toolboxs. The atvantage of insurance a corp has and the backup of other mechanics is the only real good part of that, and its nice but so much crappy work and lies come out of those shops. The problems I have seen and fixed ,lol.

A parts man who knows what heis doing is worth a million. Just like hairdressers and mechanics can take thier customers with them wherever they go, s can a great parts guy. I allways had my guys too at all the stores. Your hubby listens to all kinds of fools all day long tell him the wrong info and then blame him. He also knows when the books are wrong and where the best quality parts are, the good junkyards. all that.


Speed shops are great but there ya go again with enough business to keep them afloat. You almost gotta run in the racing circles, or advertize out the wazoo to get enough business. A combo internet sales and local shiny new wheels shop could make it off the ground maybe. really couldn't say. He would need ppl he could trust to run it with him tho I would think.

Well I had a hunch he was a parts counter guy way back when you were talking about him and his job. I could just hear it if YKWIM.

All day long he hears men,(maybe women too), bit&thin about something stupid there worker did, their spouse wants or did, the customer said or didn't pay them, or the athritis that has finnally caught up to them. There are mechanics out there that can't read, never understood mark twain and really aren't cut out to "understand" ppl but are far better mechanics than many becuase they have hands on reality on thier side.

This is the world that Hubby lives in as far as the "mans" perspective goes. This is what he has to respond to many times and it is very stressful.

I have a freind who spcializes in VWs in his own shop. He comes from Germany. He is one of the guys who the collectors bring the antiques to for appraisal. He says in germany mechanics wear suits to work, change into jumpsuits and after work shower and put on thier suits to ride the bus home. WE should have that kind of professionalism here. But we sell american stuff and the greed has ruined our product.

More later....

That is exactly what my Hubby has to deal with and sometimes I think he doubts himself. I think he is the best at what he does...he is the top salesmen at AZ and his numbers are always above everyone elses including the manager. I think he is getting tired of dealing with people. But the thing that makes me think he is doubting himself is the sound in his voice when he was talking about the new guy. The way he sounded, this guy is an equal to his knowledge. I was trying to tell him that I think he's the best one there and I don't care what this dude knows. My hubby knows his stuff and knows that store, there is none better than him IMO!

Have you fully solved the problem of why you went and got 6 lovers early on in your marriage? You did not think your husband was the best...back then...

I was a fogged up alien fool 5 years ago. I truly love him and think he's the best at a lot of things...and back then I thought he was the best at his job, I have always thought that no matter how foggy I was. But, the fog has completely lifted and I feel it's time to recover from the huge nasty mess I made. Only after a chance of recovery is given and if hubby doesn't want to move on with our marriage it may be best for our children if we divorce...I have to say the very sight and the very thought of that word is just so upsetting and I hope with everything that is in me that our marriage doesn't end that way. If that happens I will be distraught for a VERY long time!!

Stella, do you think that perhaps she is here working on that very question? That perhaps the MC is also directed at that?

And that this isn't something that is answered concretely, with one sentence, but is perhaps answered as a process of insight and over time?

I think so.

wife-02

I've seen you ask some good questions about your husband and how to change HIM.

My consistent advice to you is NOT to ask those questions.

You cannot change HIM.


Here is how to effect change in other people:


CHANGE YOURSELF


I'm serious.


The only way to effect consistent and long-lasting change in your life, to force people to react differently toward you, and to hold others to change their behavior toward you, is to change YOUR OWN BEHAVIOR and to consistently and permanently seal that change within yourself.


Consider this as an example:

Your husband yells at you, and your usual reaction is to yell back. He then yells back, name calling begins, and the argument heats up.

This is "normal" for a pattern, correct? You would yell back and forth, "anybody" would.

But - what if - big what if here!!!! WHAT IF, that very first yell back didn't happen? What if your behavior were altered drastically, and that pattern were not allowed to happen? He MIGHT keep yelling, sure. But the true "argument" pattern would be ILLOGICAL on his part, because he could not argue with - nobody - because if your reaction were completely changed, that pattern by logical standards MUST CHANGE.

Therefore, because YOU change, he MUST CHANGE.

So let's see.....your husband yells at you and you say something like, "I can see you are upset about XXXXX. Let's talk about it when you are calmer, say tomorrow at 4:30." And you DISENGAGE - period - and you are sweet, and go do the laundry, and you do not mention it at all until tomorrow at 4:30, and you open the discussion and say, "I thought about why you might be angry, and you had a point. I think I should work on trying to alter my behavior on that. No need to fight about it. I'm working on that."


Hmmmmmm


How can anyone fight? If there's no fight? No yelling back?

Or, if he calls you a name about a remote control, you look at him and say, "Gee, I can see that you really need control of the TV. Let's talk about this at another time when you aren't so angry about the remote control, here, you can have it. Maybe next Saturday at 3:30 when you've had time to cool off."

Each time you softly, sweetly, point out that HIS anger level is too high and you are willing to put it off, not fight, and take time to think....so will HE.


And absolutely put it off. Make that the issue - putting the anger off - because the two of you are too easy to set the place on fire! You MUST keep this on track, because the guarantee here is that YOU will be calmer, and the both of you will have thought about how STUPID the issue was in the first place by the time the "talk" comes around.

And over time, you will have the skills to make the switch for your anger to be pulled not in just a second, but it will take a longer time, because you will be training yourself in this process to stop and think.

And you will also be showing him to do the same thing - because YOU ARE CHANGING THE GAME

Not because you are asking him to change.

You haven't asked him to do anything but take some time "later" to talk about whatever the two of you are fighting about.



You can do this with any change you want to make - if you see a pattern, change that pattern by changing


YOUR ROLE IN IT


And by the logical process, the other person's role must also change.


SB

So,

Since hubby hasn't a clue how to recover, you have to do the heavy lifting. He will punish you for x period of time until he gets tired of it, or you do.

Divorce would be devastating to him, period.
_______________

Ok, why all the shut ups [shaddup]. I started it. I was reminding myself not to post some stuff on someone's thread that was. . . premature. Pep picked it as a joke and then Mel. Mark got in on the act and it went from there. At first I thought Pep was shaking her finger at me over a very hard post I did on 26 thread. Then I noticed that she actually put it in her sig before I even did the post. So it was friendly picking going on near as I can tell. That said, Mel does have a habit of saying "shaddup" when someone teases her.

End of story and I am sticking to it

Larry

02

I just love it when schoolbus, er, takes someone to, uh, school.

She is sooooo good at it. Mark her words. Remember the little exchange of words I played for you? The one you liked so much. Well, SB is giving you the good version of that. I didn't have the words. She does.

SB, you did good, to the heart of the matter, again.

Larry

SB yes I agree.

OK...no more "how can I change him"s....I truly want to learn how to change me...::deep breath:: I guess I need to take my own advice to my children "stop and think" "I know you are angry, we need to calm down". I just feel like I need more control of myself. I wish I had more control over my moods, it's been changing way too rapidly. This time of year it's at it's worse, I feel like I am on a moody roller coaster ride! Yesterday I was so restless and antsy I could hardly sit still, all I wanted to do was get out of the house. It was funny, I wanted to be out in nature, I didn't want to go to the store, I really wanted to go camping to try and calm myself. I felt as though I was on some weird high. I hate when I feel like that, I can almost feel my skin crawling.

The last time I tried explaining it to Hubby he wanted to know what I was smoking and why I wasn't sharing..lol


Anyway, I am really going to give my VERY best effort not to yell back. To think before I yell, a soft answer truly does turn away wrath (ok, I know that's biblical, but it's still true).

Is it avoidance to not mention the remote and find away around it, or do things that cause fights need to be discussed?

I have a question about triggers, what is the gentlest way I can ask him what I do that triggers memories so I can avoid doing those things. Several weeks ago we were having a great time (sexually speaking) kissing and what-not. (he just doesn't kiss during sex, remember) It was just those amazing kisses from early on. Well, I had asked him to do something that required him to get up and do something in the next room and when he came back he said he just wasn't in the mood any more and rolled to his side and went to sleep. I was crushed, but I wonder if he was remembering things.



If that is the case I feel terrible.

At this time all I know are two things about you guys.

You have made some terrible mistakes in relationships and don't completly undrstand why. You want to make it better and are willing to pay any price for a loving relationship with your H you love and respect, now, and are here to find answers and help to do it. You are looking for a response from him and it both scares and hurts you that he doesn't seem to care.

Hubby has been burnt before and set up his wall right after you got married. He is doing what he know will protect his heart and maintain his self-respect because he can't take that kind of dis-respect or failure as a husband that comes from being betrayed. He has compartmentalized sex as something you perform at for a price. Its not him as a man imperfect and tender but he is thinking its all bullchit this talk about trust and intimacy. He also has built this wall that wont let you in completly. You confirmed his fears by going out on him. But they were his fears that started it when he changed right after marriage when he witheld SF from you in the mystery that he wouldn't explore or admit was his problem/baggage. He is a hard working respectable man who loves you the best he thinks he can, and only takes from you what he thinks he deserves because he doesn't feel worthy. He knows somethings wrong with this but instead of getting his pain addressed he sometimes takes it out on you ,women in general or relationships alltogether. All while doing his best to be the best man he can in a profession world that takes pride on practical knowledge and facts, and loves to see others screw up because they all fear that they are screw ups too. Well most of them anyways. Such fools, they don't see that we all are screw-ups and thats what we all have in common, we learn from mistakes and wisdom comes from pain when we don't listen.
My heart goes out to both of you. SB made the greatest point that all of us learn in life. We have no powere over others like our own decisions not to "buy into" others behavior. We can only separate ourselves from bad behavior and yes, we can rise above what others do to us and treat them as we would want to be treated if we were so blind. LOve the unlovly so to speak. Isn't that a Godly attribute and the gift that God gave us when he would not compromise truth with the deception that we were not worth loving? Did God say we would never fail? Did he say he would change the world for us because circumstances were so hard for us? Or did he say reguardless of our mistakes or temptations to escape he would provide a way out? Wise counsel is the way out and the past must be put behind for him. He needs to forgive himself and you if he hopes to have a life that is not full of bitterness. "Bitterness is a poision that destroys its container" is written on a piece of paper on my wall along with "Guilt is a prison that imprisons its jailor".

But we are human so we need to work at trust and it will take time to rebuild it with him and yourself W02. The main thing ppl learn on this site is to own thier mistakes and change themselves first. We all need to live in the real world and its consequecnces and to be free of the chains of blaming others for our problems or pain is a the best gift. Then we can live in truth not just for ourselves but the people who are watching us, just like our kids are allways watching us and learn by our example you Hubby will see your change andcalmness as you find peace for your past without blaming others for why you screwwed up. You have admitted this and i think you are understanding why more and more as you read here and the MB materials. You just follow the advice of SB and Hubby will get what he wants from you. A women who is happy to be around him. Takecare of his seriuos physical need of diet and start feeding him the right foods in the right amounts with a happy heart and it will work wonders in time.

You can't make him open up but your behavior will be loving him and thats all you can do. If he gets angry and starts a fight you don't participate. God willing he will come around in time.

He seems to have a problem even admitting he has triggers doesn't he?

He still hasn't processed the past stuff and put it behind. Maybe he isembarressed to feel that way. Like he shouldbe tougher or something. Like he should be "over it" for everyones sake. It would be great if you could reach him on this but maybe a IC could.


You have the right idea W02

SSO

The collective wisdom on this forum sometimes just blows me away. And that post of yours is a prime example of both insight and help. With over 700 posts in 4 months, you obviously are not holding back and that is a good thing.

Larry

I'm not sure if i am about to make any sense but I am going to try....I have in the past asked Hubby to forgive me, time and time again he repeats "I can't forget". I don't expect him to "forget this" I just want him to ...I want him to feel better, I don't want him to feel this pain all the time. I don't think he feels it ALL the time, I think he tries to block it, because may be he is thinking he needs to be "over it already". I'm not sure if he understands what "forgiving me" really means. I am not sure what it means for that matter.

Is anyone familar with the song "Sunspot Baby" by Bob Seger? Hubby identifies with that song...and with it upbeat as it is, thinking about it makes me want to cry. He says it's what the first ex did to him. Then I start thinking about what I did to him and I start the whole "how could I's " over again.

He gets put off when I try to forgive myself, he has said I act like nothing has ever happened. Then I think how am I supossed to act? Does he want to see me torturing myself?I really want us both to heal. I feel like I am branded, when the fog lifted I felt like I needed to go around with a large Aon my chest for the rest of my life.

Can bipolar have physical symptoms? I just feel this tightness that stretches from one armpit across my chest to the other armpit and I am starting to feel extremely antsy and it's like my body is just wanting to jump out of my skin. I am wanting to just be outside, but I don't want to be around people or talk to other people. If I have to talk to someone I've Facebooked them or texted them, I just can't seem to make myself be socialble...it wasn't too bad going to the grocery store this evening, but it wasn't what I would call enjoyable. My children distracted me from a lot of the unpleasant feelings. Sometimes I am just so grateful for them so I can immerse myself in dealing with them so I can ignore some of these "I just can't handle going anywhere" feelings. I swear this is what a drug high gone wrong feels like.

OK. go find a therapist, a psychiatrist and rule out anything like bi-polar. You have to see if you are mentally healthy, and if not, get mentally healthy, if you want to try and heal the relationship.

02

Calm down. You are afflicted with stress.

Of course he can't forget. But he can forgive. And the way you say you are acting, he now has someone who will be loyal to him for life if he will allow you to be.

See, it works like this: we are who we are because of all the crap that has smacked us that was either our fault or not, doesn't matter. Most of us are molded by the bad stuff than the good stuff. Again, doesn't matter.

If, along the way, we have somehow developed a moral compass, and a sense of right and wrong, we are fortunate. If somehow we develop a life commitment to do no harm, unless attacked, then we are indeed fortunate.

And if so fortunate, does it really matter how we got how we are? There is no reset button in life. And what happens to us and what we do cannot be changed, it is a part of who we are for life. So if now we can consider ourselves as a good person, then we have something in which we can take pride, for that description does not apply to many of those we rub against in our daily life.

Take pride in who you are, not necessarily how you got there. And if you take pride in yourself because of what you have learned and who you have become, he will sense this and eventually appreciate you. Uh, frankly, or he may never get it because he is incapable. But that is beyond your ability to do for him. He has to do it for himself. And from his history, he ought to, just this once.

Larry

If you are freaking out and have terrible changeable moods, it could be chemical and you could get it checked out and feel much better treated. I am talking from personal experiance with depression. After I got help I was able to calm down and cope better with everything. This may not be a problem for you, your changing moods, as long as you dont do anything bad to yourself or find it gets in the way of you being able to have happiness.

I will be going to the MC on Thu. He is also good about figuring out mood disorders and other things since he also works in other areas...he seems to have lots of expertise in the MC field as well as other areas.
I am very much looking forward to Thu, because I don't know how much longer I can take being this way. It's ALWAYS worse in the spring.
Something weird happened to me last night, I was putting lotion on my feet and it smelled so familiar and I couldn't exactly remember the smell, but it triggered feelings and I could just remember being happy when I smelled this(it was like my body remembered before my mind did, that was really weird). After several minute s I finally remembered it, I had a perfume or something that smelled exactly like my lotion and I remembered going to the Zoo as a teenager with my family and then going to youth group that night and I remember being happy about it...I wish I could remember why I was so happy to go to youth group. Why would that moment be important...why would I be excited about seeing a crush that had no interest in me? Idk I was 16 at this time and I don't really remember my crazy lines of thought from back then too well.

Today is a new day and I am going to work on no AOs and no yelling back. Hubby kind of made me feel bad, but I was able not to say to much in the moment and I can talk to him about it later when he comes home. Last night he had been he had been going "shh" as a way to cut me off no matter what I was saying. I tried to ask him to stop and he'd cut me off with a "shh", then at some point he was poking me so I told him to leave me alone, I told him earlier about the way my skin felt but nonetheless he continues. I finally had had enough, I told him to leave me alone and to stop doing that. I wasn't yelling, but I was annoyed. This morning he told me that he laid in bed for 2 hours unable to sleep...I was trying to be flirty and told him he should have woken me and I could've helped him with that...he said that I had been too "itchy".I mean really!! The least little bit of behavior from me that he doesn't like and I am an "itch"? I can't be perfect all the time. I'm starting to feel like I have to be a stepford wife 100% of the time in order for him to be happy. I can't keep that up. In order for me to keep that up 100% of the time would be to have each on every EN met all of the time and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Just venting Those four little kisses on his work days aren't cutting it anymore...I crave more affection from him then he's willing to give and I'm beginning to get frustrated and I don't want to be frustrated at all.

Sometimes sleeping in the guest room leads to more and better sex. Maybe you do not get so used to being around someone (too familiar) Also you get a better sleep and then have energy and desire for sex.

His sleeping/sex issues could be:

1. dAylite saving time
2. His diabetes
3. His weight issues, watch DR OZ on TV
4. His unhappiness at the job
5. The lack of relaxing time with you
6. Lack of quiet time
7. The difference in energy between you and him
8. You yammering at him irritating him (you might be a talker and he might be more quiet type)

Are you suggesting I sleep in another bed? Working on weight issues, and diabetes are S L O W L Y coming under control. I agree with the job unhappiness. and #6. Not sure about the difference in energy, we are both laid back, but he is more so than I.

Yammering...I'll have to ask him if he thinks I "yammer" at him.

The way to get more "active" is to just do it - get "active". Don't wait for the "feeling" to come, because it will likely never arrive. Start simple - a scheduled walk around a nearby park, for instance. SCHEDULE the time, and this should involve some POJA with your H.

It would be a great idea to schedule time for us to spend together, that would require more of his cooperation, something I don't have fully. I have a tiny bit since is willing to go to MC. Scheduling time doesn't work in that sense because of his work week, and if he sees an opening he is going to be tinkering with his car. I go out there with him sometimes. It's just that I'm trying to learn stuff about it and all I do is get frustrated cuz I want to know exactly what he's talking about ...it's getting better. He just rather work on his car than spend time with me, I've tried scheduling things and we never do it. I am all for doing that, I just think we should do something neutral such as a walk. I sometimes think he is never going to be on board with the POJA. I have to be the one that gives in, but if you ask him I'm the one that gets everything I want. I just hope the MC can help us.

Oh, I asked him if he thought I yammered...he said I did, but he says he yammers at me as well...

W02,
Do you remember my first post? I was hammering everyone about what had happened to you when you were abducted and raped when you were young, You were traeted pretty crappy by a string of guys and it seemed to me that you had come to expect it in your intimate relationships. I was hinting about how much you have explored what that did to you in the past. How much control you hoped for or expected your significant other to initiate. I am not saying all this is your fault. Please know that up front. I am just wondering how safe you feel inside, just being. ...Sometimes we think we have a handle on our past experiences but we need to look back and make sure. How did Hubby react when he heard about how you were treated then? How much does he understand that trauma? What would he say about it now?
I bet he was ticked when he first heard it. I bet he wanted to go and rip those punks lungs out for treating you that way. I bet he felt like a Knight in shining armor and a place of refuge for you when he first was with you.
Then after he got married to you his fear of failure set in, he couldn't help it, it was the very thing he wanted to be healed from but you had no idea that he wanted you to make up for past pain he had experienced or that he expected you to, niether did he. He couldn't be afraid and open up all that to you. He needed to be strong and your place of refuge now. That was his purpose and the honorable thing to do. His only hope for redemtion for whatever he did in the past to be so betrayed by the others. So he held it in and suffered in fear.

And you, You were going to never, ever, betray this sweet man. This honorable hard working hurt man. When the mystery of why he witheld tenderness from you was never explored or brought to the surface you wondered why. Why were you rejected? What was wrong with you? Was there something wrong with this passion you had? You had strong desires and wanted to be sexually possessed by this man who you respected and married. Taken in every way not just sexually but that that is a very very big part of it in a healthy marriage. What happened? Why were you rejected now? Did he think sex was dirty or that because you wanted it you were?
Was that some of the feelings and thoughts going on just before you rebelled against what must have been a scary place he lived in and you too. Are those some of the reasons you gave up on the marriage vows and sought out the release of animal lust that you were driven by in the hopes that you were not crazy after all? You needed to be wanted W02, You needed to be possesesed physically. You wanted to be possesesed by Hubby but he was already terribbly afraid he wasn't up to the job and the fear had overtooken him. He wouldn't talk about it and hoped it would go away without having to admit he was afraid.
You blew up and out and sought attention that you desparatly needed and still need. You can control it now and have matured. Now you know there is an answer and are seeking it because the love you have for your hubby is very powerful and you won't give up.

If this is a good summary and I have struck a nerve then I will take atvantage ofthe situation to tell you this.

You and your husband have a unique opportunity to love each other with a depth beyond most people. You have a chance to really heal each other so you can have the kind of love that is unshakable. Its not gonna be a business deal but it will be rooted in real issues and honesty between each other. It will take accountability and concern for each other and both of your issues as you spend time in tendernes and understanding of each others needs. You are both human beings and you cannot save each other. Thats just slavery anyways. That is like saying "Let me tell you what to do and feel and I won't love you unless you perform"
What you can do is poor out your heart to each other agian and continue to learn about how much you need guidance and help in this thing we call life. You can fight for each other to be free and feel safe and get all the good things you both know are out here. You can make sound, calm, loving decisions to treat each other like you don't need them to love you, you love them anyway. All you need is for them to respect tha you are human too. Full of fears and guilt and insecuritys.
That is what HUbby needs to do. He lashes out at you and pushes your buttons and its not right. He is someone that has preserved his frustration at the past and you have become the unwilling victem of his baggage. Today, now, this instant is a chance for him to put it behind him and trust something higher than his experiance and past pain for his future. Its easy to critisize. He works with ppl who rise above others by how they pick apart everyone else. He is foolish if he really buys into that but .."Its hard to soar with the eagles if you are flying with Turkeys"...

If you can get him to open up with someone.. to admit he is scared and hurt, and if you can both get to work on your marriage and personal issues and baggage. Mostly if you can forgive yourselves and each other as time goes by and you forget thepain and triggers that make up many ppls lives.

You can recover and have a marriage that validates...

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

How do you only quote small portions of a reply ???

you click quote.

then you hilight between the brackets [ ] text you wanna not quote text you wanna quote [ ] and delete the part you dont want.

If you want to quote different parts you can open the thread in another window and cut and paste it over. or

you can use the whole quote and cut out what you dont want to adrress and when you go to the full reply window use a different color text and comment underneath each part .


Hope that helps. play around with it. You can delete any posts you make a mistake with.

I use a different method that works for me than SSO uses.

I highlight the text I want to quote. Then I go to the reply window. Everywhere you see a {, that means a lower case bracket.

I type {quote} except with brackets. Sometimes I will type {quote=nameofposter} at the end of the quote after I have messed with it, I type {/quote} The forward slash stops the quotation. This is useful with loooong posts and I only want to quote a little bit.

{color:#990000}put text in here{/color} Clicking on the color thing in the reply window gives this to you and you can insert what you want to say in between like I did. The window will pop back to the top when you do it, so you have to scroll back down.

You can always quote someone in a test window and see how they do stuff. Click on quote underneath their signature.

Larry

Old timers can type UBB code and html code on the fly...

UBB code uses a switch type of system to differentiate different actions to take with text. a set of brackets [ & ] enclose the switch and [/__] turns off the switch.

Possible "switches" are b for bold, u for underline' i for italics, s for strikethrough, etc.

The switches quote and /quote, mean open quotation and end quotation, so anything you put between the switches shows up in a quote box. If you want to attribute a quote to a person, use the switch (inside [ ) and include within the brackets the equal sign (=) and the person's name (with no spaces) and follow with the ]. Then copy/paste the text you want to quote, and end it with the switch /quote, again, inside [ & ].

Can't type this stuff out since it actually does what you put between the switches and doing that results in the action rather than the switches showing up to be seen.

Spoiler content (a button to press to see the enclosed text) uses the switch "spoiler" and shuts of with the switch "/spoiler". so if I type out something between the switches like "spoiler]Hi there[/spoiler" and replace the beginning and ending quotes with the [ & ] as required I get this.
Other possible switches include [font] with a font name (only some changes are possible) followed by /font to end it, [color:#______] with values for red/blue and green in hexadecimal (again, only some colors are allowed) and [size] from the default of 8 pts to 26 pts but with only certain ones allowed.

The format "quote=George]This is a test[/quote" and replacing the " at the beginning and end with [ & ] results in
So when I type [tj] to a post and end my post with [/tj] I am really saying "begin threadjack" and "end threadjack". though UBB code does not recognize the switch and so just treats it like plain old text. (POT)

Confused yet?

Mark

Lets see, SSO, if I can tackle a response to your post. I will take it paragraph by paragraph...I haven't really taken a good look at me and the things I went through. I just thought it was something to get over. The first guy that really treated me like crap and was truly and honestly abusive I got pregnant and lost the baby at 22 weeks. I blame him and my self for that and the father. I was very naive at that time, being only 19 and my my parents sheltered me from everything in the world. I had no idea what was out there. I thought this guy was all I could get for some reason and didn't deserve any better. I had an unrequited "crush" at 16 that devistated me and my mother said I had ruined all chances with that person by leaving him an anonymous card something that would have been considered cute and sweet. I left him that card after vacation bible school. He was the youth leader and was about 22 at the time. I was head over heels for this guy. He never actually rejected me, I'm not sure if he knew who gave him the card. I wanted him to know it was from me, but I was painfully shy and thought I had no chance with him one I aged a little more. I reguarded him highly and considered him someone who would have made the "perfect" match for me. He was everything I had ever wanted or thought I wanted in a man. I guess since I though couldn't get that caliber of person, I lowered my standards.

How did hubby handle the news of what I had been through...I don't remember, I can't remember if he even knows it all.

When we were first married I really think he wanted me to make up for everything, I remember thinking many times that I wasn't his exes, I kept telling him over and over that I wasn't going to leave him. I got tired of repeating myself, I got tired of trying to reassure him. He always accused me of being insecure, well I always thought he was the insecure one.

We would be sitting on the same sofa together and I always had to sit in someway that something even a toe would be touching him. He hated that I just HAD to touch him, I don't do it to much now, but if he sees that I am trying to reach out to touch him, he will avoid it. He'll sometimes say "get your cold feet off me!" if I get to close.

Something else, he always says I try to start fights with him in front of his parents...I don't see it, but why would I do that?

No, I always wondered what was wrong with me and why he never seemed to want me. I could be a very passionate person...I feel like I have stuffed that passion so deep down inside me that I don't know where it went. It has gotten to where I share some of his personality, or either I am just a mere shell of my former self.
I really don't know Hubby's true feelings on sex. He likes to say he doesn't have an opinion on a lot of things and he seems on the surface very one dimensional.

I think I'll stop right here and chew some more on your post.

I am just shootin in the dark W02. I see you as a passionate woman and H as a honorable man.

The story i guessed at was not one I haven't seen before and the feelings I described are not strange to me either.

I hope I am helping with insight and giving you hope that you and he are not the first to experiance this kind of thing.

I want to instill hope in you and hope it is contagious toward your hubby.

wife_02,

He said he "can't forget it" because he can't forget it. That's about as plain a message as he can give you.

What you must understand here is that the affairs you had are now a running moving picture show inside his head. Yes, he DOES live with this all of the time. ALL. OF. THE. TIME.

I want to try to describe this to you so that you can carry this understanding into your mind like a burning torch, and I hope that this can hit that mark.

Imagine yourself standing before the mirror one morning and finding that you now have a third eye right in the middle of your forehead. This third eye allows you to see only ONE THING - the worst thing that has ever happened to you - and it sees it repeatedly, in living color, over and over. Each day, this eye catches a glimpse of something it had not seen yesterday, and looks for something new in that glimpse. It analyzes that new thing, and the brain homes in on it for each and every fine detail. As you try to sleep, the eye and the brain play the day's messages over again just in case something was not fully analyzed. The emotional system kicks in its part as well, because it has something to say about all of the overload and input it has been receiving - this has been a complete and total replay of the worst event in this person's life, yet again...

The next morning, the eye is again on duty, watching and replaying that horrible event. New details come to light, with additional questions regarding the validity of the previous day's information. Now, all previous information must be replayed as well, because these new details must be weighed in, and the emotional issues brought forth also must be considered in with the new vision.

Can you imagine this going on, every day? All day long?


That is what is happening, sort of, with the betrayed spouse. We keep a vigilance about us. We look back at the event virtually ALL THE TIME. We replay this d-day, all the events leading up to it, the events of the marriage, trying to figure out WHAT HAPPENED, why, how, why didn't I see it coming, how could this happen to me, why did he/she do this to me, how could I be so stupid, how could I be so worthless, how could I not have what they needed, how can I rise out of this, how can I put this together again, WHAT HAPPENED, is this WS telling me the truth, how will I know it is the truth, how do I know he/she loves me, am I loveable again, did he/she ever love me, was the marriage a lie, do I even know the truth, what is/was the truth...


And this goes on EVERY DAY

ALL DAY LONG

For a very long time

When the mind is idle, this pops in

To take up that idle spot, that idle time, that idle moment, when the sleep hasn't yet come;

when the redlight hasn't yet changed to green and the radio is silent;

when the wind is calm and the birds are between songs;

when the house is quiet in the night;

when the party isn't for us or when it is for us because that sense of loneliness still invades us even when we are at a party;

when we are standing in the crowd of 50,000 at a rock concert and we look over at the couple embracing and we wonder, will they be us in a year, or is one of them cheating right now and their BS is at home;

or when the alarm clock rings and we just turn it off to face the next day, and that third eye is the first to open up.



He cannot forget, because...he cannot forget.

Schoolbus

wife_02

After about two years...if you work very hard


there will be spaces in his pain, and you will see the fruits of your labor.

Work on changing yourself.

Let his changes come as his pain subsides. His changes will come, if YOURS do. Trust that.

Schoolbus

has it been two years snce you had the affairs and he was made aware of it W02?


School bus is right about time for him to see that you have changed that and for him to believe you really love him and only him.


I am concerned that he isn't even giving it a chance sometimes when he lashes out at you still. But I am assumming you have spent a couple years waiting for him to respond allready

Am I wrong? I don't wanna go back and read itall again




Hang in there W02, BBl and have a great night

Basically H needs to see that your marriage relationship and love for each other can change and be willing to try.

02

I have never seen what Schoolbus posted before. I don't know why because she has to have said it before, or not, I don't know.

What I am here to tell you is that she is dead on telling it like it is. You know I am a BS. And the betrayal played in my head every day in every way, exactly how it has been described. Heck, after divorce, it STILL plays in my head from time to time.

See, you can forgive. But forgetting is another whole different can of worms. Eventually, we replace those scenes with more happy ones. Well, if the WS works at it. Mine did but not with the passion you seem to have. So what you are doing is a good thing.

It takes time and two years is about right. BUT, some take longer. And some never get there. I remember Cruise and her husband. I don't see that in your deal. I twig that your husband needs you.

Larry

D-day was 3 years ago. I had to ask Hubby, I thought it had been longer.

I still wonder why these men I cheated with didn't stop me, or once they knew I was married just continued. Even when they realized that they knew Hubby or just didn't care. I'm not saying I did this with anyone who knew Hubby, he just knows a lot of people and they know who I am, I just don't know who they are. I don't know if that made any sense at all.

I just wish my Hubby could realize that I do love him. I am still trying to figure out the whys...why did I do this. Yes, my Hubby is very honorable and yes, I am very passionate. I just wish I could express it to him.

Every time I try to explain what I want from him, love, touch and such, he seems to feel he isn't what I need and brings up divorce and tries to make it sound like it's my idea. I can't imagine life without him, I can't imagine being without him.

02

My opinion: Until hubby changes his job circumstance, nothing will change in your relationship. Men identify with their jobs.

Sorry. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe Schoolbus or someone will correct me. You see the twinkle in his eye when he talks about his own business or whatever, right?

I do detect that he might be trying to make a move. I dunno why I think that, something you said, probably. He wouldn't be making the move unless he thought you would back him.

Larry

Thats true about forgetting guys. My wife was a serial cheater witha touch of spilt personality.

I remember an incident when we were dating that she pulled that should have sent mepacking. But I saw more in her than her actions. Should I have stayed and tried when she had so many problems? No. But I did. I took on more than I should have and paid the price.

But in the 25 years I knew her she recovered from the problems she had and we had better times. She would be here today if she really took it seriuos and got IC counselling.

Every time she would betray me with a drinking binge during the better times along with her flings and dissapearing acts it would take a couple years to get over it. It crushed my nuts and destroyed my confidance that I was doing my job to provide and protect her. I felt worthless.


She would allways come back and pretend she did nothing wroung. I could, and at times she could, see what she had done, was sorry, but would nevertell the whole truth and just chaulk it up to "sin nature". Yep she had issues and was not marriage material but she had other qualitys and instead of trust with my heart, she earned trust of everyone else and the children.

See she was not stupid, had guts, and she could be a great friend. She also hid an insecurity and fear that she never explored about why because the fear parlysed her.


I , we did what we thought was right at the time, When I was gone for two years because alcohol had taken its toll on me she hooked up again with God and it helped, But she would not let anyone help her in a practical way. I mean God is practical right? She was human like the rest of us right? Like so many ppl who have problems they think they will never be understood by others. Sometimes its fear and sometimes as weird as this sounds, its respect for what twisted them and hurt them.


You guys are different of course but my concern is that Hubby is going to live in that place guys go when they don't understand what happened.

I also so that twinkle when he talks about changing jobs.

I think it would be great for him to change jobs and would be a boost for his self-image. Maybe it would start a string of changes in his attutude also. Give him hope. Get him to see possibilitys in his life.

I am also one of those guys who relate who they are by what they do. Most important to me was if I was working and teaching my children responsibility as I showed them I loved them. I am not happy unless I am working and involved with life. I don't think most people are. We need to feel we make a difference.

When my family or marriage was having problems tho my job and attitude suffered. I would still perform and pay the bills but there is a difference between surviving and living. Its mostly an internal attitude. If H is unhappy with his marriage and you no amount of money or success will fix that. It might replace it but its not the same is it?

I would love to see your H get his diet and body in shape and have some positive successes in his life. I am more concerned that you and he connect agian so you can heal.

To me there is stuff you must do for you by yourself along with things you need to do for him, and the same for him towards you. I doubt that he is happy when he berates you or puts you down. He probably feels stuck emotionally. He needs hope.

Keep working on it W02 youll get there.

I also agree that a change in jobs might help him boost his self-esteem.

I additionally believe that you are fighting more than your own affairs here. You are fighting his previous marital histories - and you know that. You are fighting the movies from the other wives' affairs, which were triggered when you cheated.


What has to happen is more time - because the "typical" affair takes two years to process.....but this is NOT the typical affair, is it? You were with six other men. That's not something a person can really process easily, and the return to trusting you isn't going to come easily. Also, while the d-day may have happened 3 years ago, I must ask you to review honestly this question:

When would you say you actually came out of the fog, accepted FULL responsibility for the affairs, and completely started working on the marriage?

That would be the timeline for the beginning of recovery - not the d-day date. Because recovery actually begins when the WS takes that responsibility, begins working on the marriage, and stops blaming the BS for the affairs - it is when the WORK is beginnning on the marriage, not the d-day.

Why do I say this? Because you can have lots of d-days, if the WS strings out the truth-telling, for example, and that sets the timeline back to day one. Or, if there is contact with the OP, and that would set the timeclock back to day one. So d-day isn't really the time to start thinking, "Oh, our recovery began when the BS found out I had an affair."

The WS has to begin the work, join in, so to speak. When did you REALLY begin that?


Because, when you came here, even your first post was still full of justifications for your affairs.

You weren't fully comprehending the concept of your complete fault in the actions of yourself. Still, even, take a look at the ideas and content in your last post about the other men. You are still talking about how they "should have" stopped you.


No.

YOU should have stopped YOURSELF.

Only YOU control YOU.

ONLY. YOU. CONTROL. YOU.

The choice to have an affair - in each case - was yours. You chose, for whatever reason, to place yourself in situations that might lead to sex with men you knew were risky to be alone with. You chose.

I know this, because I have made similar bad choices.

To rewrite these situations now is dishonest to yourself, and will not lead to making healthier choices in the future - nor will it lead to creating a stronger trust between you and your husband or a more honest relationship with your him.


This sounds brutal, and tough, and mean. It isn't meant to be that way. I want you to take a very hard look at your own words, and to see yourself deflecting your own part of the blame toward the OM in your affairs. The OM did what they did


because of your invitation

and for no other reason.


Understand that your own boundaries and your own behavior led you to where you are.

Your husband sees this. He is looking for you to fully and completely understand this - and by your words and actions show him that you completely understand this. By consistently going back and "wondering" why the OM didn't prevent your behavior, you once again look to

EXTERNAL CONTROL over yourself.


THERE IS NO EXTERNAL CONTROL.


Schoolbus

I like that SB. There is no external control

Well outside of prison or slavery anyway and who want to go there anyways.

True on prison and slavery - but she was in neither - she was in a marriage, which is ELECTIVE. At least in most countries.

I didn't mean it quite like that "they should have stopped me" I was questioning the moral compass of these men. They shouldn't have accepted my advances was what I was getting at. I have a hard time wording things from time to time to get out what I am thinking. I am not blaming anyone but myself for what I did. It would have been nice had they not accepted my advances, but the state of mind I was in I would have found somebody.

I confessed to the cheating three years ago and I feel that I was out of the fog as in realizing I was wrong and wanting to be with my Hubby and that I did truly love him. It really felt as if a fog had lifted. I felt that I should confess to him, not only because it was the right thing to do, but I felt it should come from me.

I sometimes think that if enough men had refused me that maybe it would have given me enough time to come to my senses before I cheated. I just want to know why I did this. Even if there is bipolar disorder at work here, what made me think this was ok...how could I be this rotten evil person who could break her vows and crush her husband in every way imaginable. When I had confessed I was incredibly sorry, I was on the floor in a blubbering heap begging for him to forgive me and saying how sorry I was over and over and hoping he wasn't going to throw me out of the house for my dispicable behavior. I could very easily get in that place of how sorry I am (the falling in a heap sorry) if I really think about how badly I hurt him and how bad I wish I had never done something so terrible. I feel like I am tainted and that I can never go back to how he thought of me before, how he thought of me when he met me.

He says I have changed a lot from when he met me. The night I met him I didn't know if I was ever going to see him again and I could care less at that point. May be he miss read me. I was never obsessive about him like I had been other people. But, he was one of the very few men that I didn't wonder if they liked me. And then it got to the point where I didn't wonder if he loved me. Now, well, since the year before I cheated (around the time we moved to a new house, well new to us house) he quite saying he loved me. When he says it there is sound but no words. One of the last times he said it I asked him what was that and why did it sound more like "mooo" than "love you"? I haven't heard an audible "love you in about 5 years. He has said he doesn't like to say it.

When we went to MC it came up about how we never had a real wedding and he was trying to get across to Hubby that it was important to me and that may be we should do that at some point. But, if Hubby doesn't want to do something, Hubby IS NOT going to do it. He is stubborn. I think they only reason he has compromised a bit on the kissing thing is that he was tired of hearing about me talk about "compromising". But, you know I think I am to the point that I don't want to do it anymore if he doesn't. I am tired of not feeling wanted, I am tired of my feelings about things like the wedding going unvalidated and him not even making the effort to understand why it is important to me. I look at it as a fresh start and a second chance to prove to him that I really love him. I can't figure out how I can prove that I love him. I do the "gross things" for him...I help him when he's sick...I root for him....I try to show him I am on his side no matter what and that I want him to be happy now....I wish he could see what goes on in my head and how much I love him, how much he means to me. I wish he could see how happy I am when he's happy. I know that's a big thing for him, for me to be happy. He's told me many times to leave if I'm not happy. That makes me so depressed to hear that, it comes across to me like he doesn't want to meet any ENs, and that I am to be happy with him without any effort on his part.

I did get insight on how men think today and that a man can just sit and think about "nothing". And yes, that drives me nuts. I really need to make notes before we go because there is just so much that I don't know where to start. I would print stuff off from here if my printer would just work!

Ok, so I'm the paragraph police. Others have been before me like Pep.

You are obsessed with hubby. Will you still be when he does more things you like?

Come on 02, you know dang good and well you can go to WalMart and get laid in less than 30 minutes. Males often have no brains higher than their belts, just like some females. Someone will always take you up on your offer. Just wave it around and here they come. Forget about the guys who should have turned you down. That is an emotional blind canyon.

Larry

I am just becoming appalled at how most males behave and using the wrong thing to think with. (as well as some females) Do other people just not care what they are doing...Is there such thing as OM or OW fog? I mean I guess at the time I just didn't care what I was doing so why should they care?

Does anyone have any idea why I did this in the first place? Is bipolar just an excuse? I really do not want to make excuses for my self, I want to take responsibility for my actions and the horrible consequenses. I want to know how can I examine myself to honestly figure out why I did this. And if I am ever tempted again how I can fight this (heaven forbid I ever find myself ever tempted to do something as horrible as this again. I want to say I will never be tempted to even think about being tempted, but I want to be realistic, Hubby likes to say once a cheater, always a cheater and I would love to prove hi wrong). At least I think I am better equipped to handle my marital dis-satisfaction.

I feel horrible for even asking this, but I think it's important.

02:

You see my link. There are five pages of very heavy analysis and you seem ready for it. Can't post to it anymore, but I am available to answer any questions you want to ask. In Recovery is a forum where long and well reasoned (or not) posts are commonplace. It is where I used to hang out.

There were some really great posters who participated in that thread and even more who read every word. I miss graplin and some of the others. I played the role of needle to keep things going and they did, keep going and going and going

Me and Mark get teased about long posts. But that is the deal here in GQII. Doesn't stop me from posting them though. . .

Lemme see if I can answer your questions.


Hope that helps. And there are references in that thread pointing to other places you can pick up stuff that Harley doesn't address.

Larry

Oh yea, and one more thing. Most of us, men and women, are obsessed to one degree or the other about sex. It is nature's way of insuring the survival of the race. But the rules become so varied because there are so many people, who in turn make up their own rules.

Larry

Its really simple W02 Why you did it but thier is still no excuse unless you allow one for yourself.

Hubby is not responsible for how you feel about yourself but you gave him that place. He allready had issues with cheating wives and brought that fear into his marriage with you. Ever hear the statement ,"there is nothing to fear but fear itself?"

So you let hubbys irrational fear that he would be cheated on again and the coldness in which he treated you drive you into a rebeliuos act that he was afraid of. A "self-fufilling Phrophecy" sort of thing.

Heres the thing about fear. We get enamored by the things that we fear. We will be slaves to it and it can control us. We become obsessed. It becomes something we live in instead of a guidance system that protects us.

You put your confidence in being loved and worthy of it in the hands of someone who didn't have the tools to give it to you.


Confidance is not built by throwing a child out of the boat to teach them to swim. It isn't beaten into you.

After some time spent with a guy who lived like you were a cheater. You acted like the kid who was allways called a thief. He stole out of anger and frustration.

So thats why. Can you forgive yourself now and your husband for not being the perfect mate without introspection?



Once a cheater allways a cheater? LOL. Yah. So I guess I should be pee4ing my pants still cuz i did when I was a child...

Some of my questioning is that I want to know why and Hubby wants to know why and I really want to tell him something more than just I don't really know why I did this and there isn't an excuse. I don't want an excuse, I want a why. How can I get him to understand some of these things and how can I bring it up to the MC? (sorry about that horrible sentence, it's how it how it would have come out had I been actually talking)

Ahhh, good. What is the MC like? Does he seem to understand Harley methods? How you "Style" what you want to say with the MC depends on the "Style" of the therapist.

Larry

He seems to. I whipped out my "Surviving an Affair" book and he seemed familar with it, and the ENs as well. ...but he seems to prefer the author of "The Five Love Languages". He is quite easy to talk to, even though my face just burns trying to.

He showed us a video of this comedian who was describing the way men and women's brains work...Hubby got it right away and found it quite humourous as well did I...This guy, who I didn't catch his name was saying that men keep things in boxes in their brains and the boxes never touch and if the box is closed they aren't thinking about that particular thing and men have an empty box and can think about nothing. Women brain's however are made of wire and EVERYTHING connects and women are constantly thinking.

I get that, and now I have a new way that I can ask Hubby what he's thinking about. I can ask him what box he's in. He was always put off by the old "what are you thinking" as I think a lot of men seem to be.

Hubby seems to like the MC.

On a side note Hubby has a new problem and we think it is the meds he is on and not the diabetes itself. You know what his doctor said to me and I just felt about 2 inches high after she was done?? And well what she said may be true, but I still felt bad. She said, sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage. It felt like a blow to me. SF is one of my top 5 ENs, all it did was enforce Hubby's attitude on that area. I am afraid to bring that up at the MC at all. Hubby complained a little bit about the problem, but the next day blew it off as nothing. If he's having this problem and the Doc doesn't think it's valid, he's never going to even try to ....is sex really not that important? Any time I have the courage to talk about it to a doc, they just confirm Hubby's point of view and not mine. Is it weird that SF is one of my ENs? I just really feel like crying, if he has this problem I am just never going to ask for it again, I just can't handle the rejection. Hubby is an odd man, when that goes away, so does his desire.

02,

When they say that sex isn't the most important thing in a marriage, I can say that I understand what they might mean.

My husband had prostate cancer - diagnosed about 2 or 3 weeks after d-day.

What a complete disaster this was to our marriage. The affair, and then the thought that I might never be able to have the chance to erase the memory or even compete with the memory of the OW - because he would have surgery within just a few short weeks........and the very real possibility of NO SEX FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

I know the very real meaning of the concept that sex is not the most important thing in a marriage.

We had no sex, nothing, for well over a year.

He couldn't. And when we tried - to see what might have recovered - well, he was afraid, his dignity was crushed, and he was psychologically impacted by this entire experience.

Things were not what they used to be.

Add to this, his affair, and the sense within him that this whole cancer thing was his "karma".



We have crawled out of this hole. It has taken several years, but he is actually completely functional again and yes, we are once again able to have SF. But is it really the most important thing in our marriage? Prior to his affair, he might have ranked it pretty high.

Now????

Nope. He ranks other things higher, because this whole event has taught him that the intimacy in our relationship is more important, and that he craves our experiences together more - and the SF is a RESULT of that intimacy - not the beginning of it.

Another thing your hubby may be looking at is that his weight and health may be affecting his performance??? At least, this should be considered. Additionally, you might consider that your affairs impact his confidence, and his willingness to reach out to you and bring down his walls.

Sorry, but that's just the truth of it. Not to mention his previous marital experiences. But it might be changing, if the MC gets into this area with you two. He might not like the word "compromise", but ultimately the MC will get him to that word.

SB

Exactly my opinion on sex in a marriage.

Outside of marriage and in an "in-love honeymoon" type enviroment their is still some issues where ppl are using sex for emotional connection or bonding. When real life comes in and commitment for life takes its seriuos place in our emotions and relationships we see things differently and act accordingly.

You really in my opinion O2 a need for intimacy and that is what is missing, not just sex for sexs sake.

Ask yourself this question. Did you want to get married just to have sex all the time? I bet not. Whats great about you guys getting help is that when the intimacy things get handeled Sex will be even better. It will be deeper and more meaningful when the walls come down and he gives himself to you willing to please his preciuos bride.

Not to be crude but your toes will curl and I bet he will be proud to be in charge and push your buttons.

Somewhere in the bible it says.. "The marriage bed is undefiled" To me it meant there is no shame in pleasing your mate.

Did that make sense to you SB and Larry?

Perfect sense.

02

My husband's affair was "sex for the sake of sex". His explanation, not mine.

He nuked our marriage, our relationship, our lives, for sexual experience that was "different", he said...he wanted something "different" after having been married so long.

He also had this issue with porn, which we both agree fed this desire for sex with another person. When the opportunity knocked, in the form of OW, he took it. Case closed.


It wasn't quite so complicated on the surface. Underneath, now, you KNOW there is a lot going on!


You seek to answer the question, "Why did I do this?" for yourself, and also for your husband.


This is a noble quest. An honorable one as well, and the fact that you are here and have made the gains you have made speak volumes for you.


The "why" of this is partially answered in a philosophical arena. I have a book recommendation for you, because the book makes things much easier to understand. The book is "Leadership and Self-Deception: Getting out of the box" by The Arbinger Institute.

It can be found in either the business management section or the self-improvement section of bookstores, or online.

It's grounded in a philosophical approach to thought processes. Here goes:

We operate on momentary decisions. These decisions take place so quickly that those moments CAN be missed, but actually once they are pointed out to us we become quite aware of them as we live them in our lives. Prior to them being pointed out, however, we are pretty much blind to them.

This principal is basically how we operate under "self-deception". Because we are unaware of these moments, we can go through life justifying bad behavior and bad decisions because we have deceived ourselves that there are reasons and justifications for our behavior. We are able to explain to ourselves why we are behaving in a certain way, and we are able to nicely shift the blame to other people - and NOT EVEN REALIZE IT.

We can deceive ourselves.

BUT!
Once we are aware of the fact that we should NOT be doing something, that is no longer "self-deception". Because you cannot deceive someone if they are AWARE of it. At the point of the awareness - that very moment you are AWARE of the fact that you are doing wrong

it becomes SELF-BETRAYAL.

And THAT, wife_02, is what you did.

You betrayed YOURSELF first, when you had your affair.

Your own words in your posts show you that - look at them.

You speak of the horror at your own behavior, how you wish you could take it back, stop yourself, you cannot believe that you did this, how you thought you never would have done anything this horrible....all of it....and yet, you betrayed that very spirit and knowledge within YOU that served to tell you

DO NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR.

You betrayed yourself first.

Self-betrayal occurs when you go against that voice within you that tells you that you should be doing something RIGHT for someone else, and you go against that voice.

Immediately upon going against that voice, the VERY NEXT THING YOU HEAR?

You will hear:
Justifications as to why you should go ahead and do it, why you CAN do it, and blameshifting as to why the person being hurt by your behavior DESERVES to be hurt.


Read the book. It is based on a businessman. However, if you think about your affair behavior - you can easily see how this thinking translates to bad decisions anywhere in life.

And from that moment on, you will fully understand why I keep saying you have to stop shifting the blame before you can progress. Why there is no external control. And why you are in control of any and all changes in your life.


Because this concept of self-betrayal will CHANGE YOUR DESTINY.

Read the book.


SB

This whole post 02 ..was awesome..

It doesn't matter that you felt so bad and reacted to circumstances in your marriage that were hurting you. What matters is you went into self-destruct mode. First in your mind and then in yur decisions

You know that it doesn't have to be that way and you have proven it over and over here because you are searching and learning.

read


the


book

Well, his weight gain could also be a factor. So he has all this stuff floating around in his head as well, plus other medical things.

I agree with SSO since he asked.

Larry

02

Yea, read the book. I am not sure which one SB is talking about, but whatever she said, do it. I trust SB.


See, as you trudge through the minefield of self examination and dealing with a hubby who doesn't trust anyone, for good reason, you gotta get all the help you can get and you have to be patient with the time it takes to do the job. After all, it took decades for to build yourself to this point. So don't worry about the months it is going to take for you to get a new lease on life based on the education you get in relationships and all the assorted crap that goes with it.

Larry

Wow, SB, that was an amazing post!

I betrayed myself...you know that makes a lot of sense, I went against everything I knew was right and just did something so wrong. I will not say I had an affair. I cheated, I did something dirty. You might see me type "As" but I simply do that as a short cut. I think the word "Affair" glorifies and romantisises it somehow.

But with the SF, I want the kind that comes from deep intimacy, a closeness that can't be explain with mere words.

Can a person have an issue with porn if they don't use it for the intended use? Can it damage a persons view on sex? Hubby was exposed to it accidentally at a VERY young age. Later on he worked as a bouncer at a strip joint and was around half naked women, and most of them were usually hugging on him and what-not. Hubby has always said the sight of a naked women "does nothing for him".

I will read the book.

Yes, it is the intimacy that is missing. I am really looking forward to the end result, and we both can have a deep intimate, close, and loving relationship that we both want. I am looking forward to the SF that will result from such intimacy...right now, I'm sorry to say this, but it's just to much work. I want it to come naturally and just flow like I think it should. There is so much potential for such a great relationship here... (shame on my mother for telling me I married the wrong man!) It's just going to take a lot of work.


On another note, Hubby said he noticed the change in ::ahem:: performance right after he started taking meds. He has had some minor issues due to his weight, but nothing like what's been going on. In my personal opinion, I have always thought sex was important...but I have always thought that intimacy was #1. I feel that way more now than I ever have. I think that's what I have always been after and my methods of trying to get it are just well, messed up and I'm not referring to the cheating. That to me was something else.

Hubby and I are going to get away for the day without the children and I am so excited!! We are going to a swap meet to buy performance parts for his car (76 chevelle. But, how do I get him to not feel guilty about leaving the children behind with a sitter. He feels like they are missing out on an opp. for family time, something that we don't get to do often. (By that I mean going out of town for a trip). I think the children would be bored, I think it would be hard to entertain them and hard to confine the 2 yr old boy of ours to a stroller. We all will be going to one in July called Super Chevy. A big outside thing. A lot easier to deal with kids outside and there will be entertainment such as drag races and jet cars. It's just idk, does he dread spending time with me and uses the kids as a distraction? I will be away from my computer over the weekend so feel free to post and I will get back to ya'll on Mon. (A family trip btw to the in-laws!!)

02

Well now isn't this interesting:


In between marriages, I hung around a strip club for entertainment. I had a lifetime membership I purchased to entertain out of country types who were coming by my place to buy stuff my company made. They all wanted to go to a strip club, so it was cheaper to get the membership. Most of them were Asians and thet ALL wanted to go see naked blonds.

AND, believe it or not, the joint had some of the best food in town, it was a high end low life place, if you get my drift. Anyway, I ate the noon buffet for free a couple of times a week. The club was making megabucks and they had hired a major chef to run the kitchen. I kid you not, the food was out of sight. So were the females.

A strip club is based on women who are good at manipulating males for money. Simply put, that is the culture. And males make jacka@@ess out of themselves on a routine basis. After a while you sorta get used to naked flesh and while you still look, sorta, it just isn't the same as when you expect to, uh, get up close and comfortable with said naked flesh. I never had that expectation even one time with any of them, uh, except one.

I didn't buy what they were selling, which is an illusion. But the customers I brought in indulged their fantasies. So after a while, I became accepted for what I was. When I ate at the buffet, I was often joined by strip workers who were not trolling. Some of the conversations among them I heard were interesting, to say the least.

A bouncer probably knows even more than I do about the culture.

Very interesting and very revealing of your husband. One thing he may know is that even those strippers often had a boy friend or husband they were loyal to, and quite often, the BF was an abuser. Most of the husbands were ok, so it appeared. At the same time, your hubbies opinions are going to be somewhat slanted depending on the type of club where he worked and for how long.

Larry

Well Larry
Yes I can appreciate your point of view. For some reason there was a time when a bunch of the guys I knew and worked with in, lets say,"the field of trade" I was working in looked up to me to find a good "Strip joint" to go to on a Fri night. Its what the group wanted to do and so we visited some in the cities we were in at the time. I really didn't care about going cuz it is an illusion.

I was never the type to look at pin-up girls and be able to consistently drool over them without realizing how dangerous the game they were playing with thierselves. I know some could compartementalize thier emotions and separate at least in thier mind separate what they did as a "profession" from what they must feel in the ways of humility and personal modesty and made a trade off. I ussually just looked at the pin-up and exibition types as victims of thier own fears and insecuritys and the "ahem" manly culture that treats them as objects and possessions.

It is dangerous to feel sorry for them and again men fall into the very mindset that drives the culture when they do. The belief that men can save them and that women are there to serve thier ego.

Its allways the easy way out too. Men are stimulated by what they see and women from the aspects of the relationship. Men get to see and fantasize without having to think or give care for these girls and the girls get to have total control and can litterally count,$ on what they get out of it. That is bassically what is at the heart of it and whithin it we have people who have accepted it as a way of life, by choice, victimization, or a confusing combination of both. The sexual part of it to me could be compared to scratching a really heavy itch if you take all of the other crap we assoiciate sex itself out of it. There ussualy was no tenderness in it. I consider myself blessed, not because I am better than these ppl and was born that way, but because I have been taught to live as someone who did not decieve himself and that I have in the past but life is for learning.

For as many of these girls as exist they all have their own storys and of course there are no two storys alike. Some of them are making money working through colledge and somehow they think they are making a noble sacrifice. Some are just lazy and admit it. Some play the drama queens that were victims. All of them have a choice at least in thier minds to have a different profession and for the mentally ill ones we have the law to protect them if the law plays fair. It was designed to protect them and if they could only embrace that they could start to think.

Its like all of the busnesses that play to mans vanity. FRom marriying some guy because he has money or position or will take all responsiblity for thier actions, women can sell thier right to be accountable just like men do. Ever notice that prostitution, stipper bars and drugs are allways more affluent in military towns? The fear of death and not getting our share is a primary driving force in ppl. A Girl has to eat right? And a guy has needs right? Yeah well justification...

I could not separate casual sex from relationships and it caused me a real problem when I was younger. It was a good thing but i didn't realize it then. I also didn't pick the right friends but welcome to the club right? When my friends were telling me they had a chance to pick up this hot chick at a bar and she would come sit at the table with us I could sense what they were about it allways struck me funny. Some were just bitter and selfish and playing the game that they thought they were winning as they laughed and got drunk enough to leave with the guy. Some seemed scared and looked to me as the guys said wierd stuff and seemed to be asking me if they were gonna be alright with this guy. All I could do was assure that all they were in it for was the sex and that they were not axe murders. Even if it meant that I betrayed my buddy when he had a particular women who seemed to belive whatever line he was sellin her and she was doomed to being a sucker and a victim. These women were willing victims and had allready sold themselves some fantasy.

I remember one time in particular but it wasn't the only time that this type of situation happened to me.

I went to a strip bar with some guys and there was a bar we all sat at. The girl who did the main show danced on the bar in front of us and it was a great show. She paid particular attention to me and of course all the guys gave me crap about it in a joking way. After the show she approached me and asked me if I wanted to play a game of pool. I was flattered but not because I thought she wanted me LOL. I knew she knew I was safe. I played a couple games of pool with her while she looked over my shoulder and was watching some rowdy guys at the bar. We both knew what her interest was with me. In the act I was a prop. A way for the other guys to fantasize and get there jollies without her getting someone too excited that she would have to "handle" later. At the pool table I was the rough looking guy that had a crew with him that kept away the weirdos.

What did I get out of it? My protecter ego was puffed up. I was still a victim of my own vanity LOL. Ever notice the State police hanging around those joints? They are present to protect the people and the bussiness both. I know that thier are a few cops who fall in love with the idea that they can "save" those women and really they are in love with the idea of it. I am sure there are success storys but it would have to do with both of them and the saving part would eventually have to be replaced if both of them were to respect each other. Nobody can "save" somebody that doesn't want to be saved. Its still about choices. If someone makes good choices they deserve the credit and reminding someone of thier failures is like slavery and a control tactic.
Personnally although I have empathy for those girls I have more for the ones who when given a chance would work at two jobs in convienience stores as they attended colledge to improve thier life. The flesh trade is just an easy way out. A mistake that can be corrected. A sickness relative to all mankind and by choice can be avoided and should be fought against whenever it can be. But I am not a 13 year old girl sold into it as a child from another country nor was I brought up in a military town poor and next to a strip bar. Those ppl need to eat and sleep and some have fallen into that lifestyle. Some fight thier way out.

W02,
Your husband has a relationship with the world and a past that has molded his outlook on his marriage. Its too bad that when his attitude towards you had driven you to a place in your mind that you felt like cheating that you didn't look at him and say, "look, I can't take the way you treat me, I wont live like this and if you wont go to counselling I am going to leave" Then if he still insisted to live and think the way he was you could have left and waited for him to change while you did a plan B. You didn't know how at the time nor did you have MB to help you during that time. Its to bad you cheated and you are here knowing it was wrong and are willing to again sacrifice yourself for your marriage relationship. You are willing to learn and thats what he would need to do also. He would need to see what he needs to do to restore a loving relationship with you. I wonder if he is willing to see his part in creating his own self-fufilling phrophecy when he treated you like a cheater before you cheated as you have admitted your part of losing your mind when you did the deeds. I guess he could stay safe in his world of how all women cheat and life is not fair.. boo-hoo. I wonder if he could forgive himself for it.

Don't get me wrong Vets, I feel for this man. I know she could have made other choices than cheat on him with men who fiegned concern for her on the net. I just wonder how this should be handled. How many years does she wait untill her Husband realizes he needs help and that if he stays this way he will only continue in this spiral of looking for negativity and failure in everyone he knows and creating it in his own world. Will he live as the cash cow for another woman when she leaves him? Or will he be a lonely old guy without taking a chance while he counts on the bad things life has handed him as being the truth?

I guess its about what he is wiling to fight for. If he can be inspired to change his relationship with his wife by changing his outlook and be willing to seek knowledge or dream outside of his experiances I believe he will not only recover his marriage, but his life. He owes the world nothing and as far as I know is not married to it. Does he want to fight to rise above what the world has handed him and put the past behind to share a life with this woman that has conquered the slime the world offers? I bet he know hes needs help but is to proud to admit it and somehow is waiting for the world to change before he changes his own personal world with his wife. Hes scared and hurt and afraid and needs hope.

What can you do W02 to help him is the question. You have the advantage here to love him anyways without losing one bit of self-respect as you put the past behind and fight the good fight of faith. Dare to visualize, dream and change your thoughts and faith for your marriage.

You were right, it doesn't have to feel this way...

I'm not really sure how to respond to that SSO...that is a lot to take in...


The strip joint he worked in was not very um "classy". It was not the worst one in town, but, not the best. I remember going in there and all the girls "just loved hubby to death" But none tried to date him. They felt sort of protective of him...I remember I was walking past his work (he worked at a feed store so it wasn't uncommon to see him outside, this was not long after we met) to go to the store and he looked up from this car with either one or two girls and he looked up and waved...well, I came back and he was still talking to them and he smiled and waved at me again...and he later that day told me that they wanted to know if I was stalking him. They acted like he was a big brother to them.

We had taken the children to the park one day and while they where playing he starts to flip these tiny stones at me in a playful way (he wasn't angry or trying to hurt me), I asked him to stop, but he continues...yes, I was trying to flip them back but I couldn't figure out how to do it...but what I am getting at is I hate this childish behavior and I want to be treated like a grown women and be treated with some dignity and not like how one would act as though playing like a child. I like him to be playful, but not revert into child like behavior. Am I wrong here? He even hit my tooth...he could have injured me could he not? I just don't know how to deal with this sometimes. I brought this up to the MC and he starts talking about the Three Stooges. I am sitting there with this ? over my head trying to figure out what's going on here. (On the upside he was trying to tell him that he might have to do things that he might not want to... compromise ...but he didn't actually use the word though. He was trying to get him to understand how important vow re-newal was to me, hubby won't do it though. If Hubby DOES NOT want to do something, he WON'T do it. It's hard to think of the things he just WON'T do...there are quite a few of them and it usually has to do with selflessness on his part involving me somehow.)

I just wanted a husband who treated me with dignity, shared intimacy with, and loves me with a deep passion( doesn't have to be wild, I prefer quiet passion), have I just simply watched too many movies. Is this even realistic for me and Hubby? Even sometime off in the future?

I saw this old couple the other day in the store holding hands and I thought "Well, that certainly won't be us at 70+". I'd like it to be, but I feel like I am wanting something that he either doesn't want to give or is just incapable of giving. I feel that I have ruined my chances at having this deep intimacy that I crave from him. i'm not even sure if I even had any chances of that even before I cheated. He had this huge brick wall around him after we married that had security that tighter Ft.Knox or the White House. Nothing was getting in. NOTHING! I don't know if he's just mellowed his grip on the wall or what, but there are a few holes in it now. Maybe it's simply he's "grown-up" some, but there is a change in him and I can't put my finger on it.

I do think he "likes" wallowing in the "poor me, all women cheat on poor ol me, all women are a like, boo-hoo" mentality and it used to be a lot worse. He was like that within 1 year and a half into the marriage (the others left him at a year and a half). Since we are WAAAAYYY past the year and a half mark, he told me not too long ago that he was just waiting for me to leave "because that's what they all do"(after they cheat) Like, he bracing himself for impact. No matter how much I tell him I'm not leaving him, he doesn't beleive me. I feel like I spend the majority of the time defending myself in someway.

Its gonna take time W02, Itsalso gonna take a commitment from him to put the past behind and live in that hope you both should have for your marriage.

I can guarantee that if he wanted to find someone negative to build another negative relationship based on protecting his past experiances and the right he has to be ticked about it...that he can find someone who will jump on the bandwagon with him.


I feel like I am beating him up and I hate that. I am hoping he can get out of his own head alittle and get some MB help

Does anyone else here have advice on how to get Hubby in a positive Marriage building mode?

SSO

Matter of fact I do.

02

How long has it been since your read COMPLETELY through all of Dr. Harley's stuff her including the infidelity links? Another question might be have you ever read all the way through all of the links and newsletters?

I just reviewed the material today = not much posting.

Every time I go through Dr. Harley's stuff, I find something new for me to absorb. And lo, I saw something that would be useful to you. But without the context of a review of the rest of the material, it won't make sense in isolation.

So. . . 02, wanna read some stuff?

Larry

I want to read some more stuff, but sometimes I don't know where to startt because there is so much....what did you see that would be useful to me?


I want to post about something, but I think an Admin, or mod might delete it...how can I post something that has to do with sexual things?

I am going to try to post this mostly because it's eating at me and may be someone can help me put into words how to explain intimacy to my Hubby.

This is what happened...(since Hubby's been on meds it make SF difficult, so I was happy when he asked me to do um something to him) Well, he pretty much won't touch me, won't do anything but lay there, and I am getting upset by the minute. Afterwards I just roll over, I can't even look at him. He's asking what wrong (in not a nice way) and saying things like I don't normally act this way (when I do what I did to him). Well, I'm sorry that I wanted SF, and then he accuses me of only thinking about sex...well, how can I not in that situation!!!!!! All he did when he said that was make me feel USED! AGAIN! Yes, I was feeling a little used during what I was doing...From past experiences I have a hard time refusing anything.

When he said all I think about is sex, I was trying to tell him that I wanted SF that comes from a deep intimate relationship with him, but he just doesn't get it. I really just think he doesn't get me and doesn't want to(he also thinks I don't get him). A part of me thinks he'd be relieved if I would just leave already. I wish we had a guest room..I'd go sleep in there! What makes me so mad is that he always "just lays there" and when he does choose to do something to me it's always rough and he doesn't like it when I say "stop" "ouch" "that hurts" If he's doing something to me isn't it supposed to be on my terms and not his? Why do I have to try and like something? Why do I have to take what I can get? How come I am not good enough for anybody???????????

Keep reading whatever you can find that helps you W02.

I would take sex out of the equation right now untill you guys both realize that intimacy,trust,communication and feeling safe with each other is more important. If you get to that place and hold each other sex will just happen anyways IMO.

Be careful W02 with your newfound understanding that the shape of your marriage is not all your fault. It doesn't entitle you or excuse acting out of anger and frustration. You still for your own sake and his can insist it get better and nobody should have the attitude of "Marriage at any cost" That would be shooting yourself in the foot. Think about it... Its going to take time, work, a respect for the vows and each other to work this out untill its ballanced and healthy

My thinking is that he is in a rut. He is getting all he can from you while it lasts. He has no clue how to either go where you want him to go or to a place where he wants to go but doesn't know how. If it were a car, he would eagerly read everything he can get his hands on or ask experts.

This is a subject for MC. And he will do that, right? This is his way of showing that he wants to go someplace but it doesn't feel right to focus on relationships, because they are not objects he can comprehend.

Men have a tendency to look for women to lead them in the relationship merry-go-round. Women buy most of the sold relationship books which thus are written for women. But men are not always easily led. So there you go. And women get frustrated. Again, so there you go. I don't have a magic wand, I really don't.

I started at the beginning and am plowing through. It is all necessary now and for your future. Don't fight the learning because it is too much, embrace it because it is all good.

Larry

I just feel like screaming, ranting, and crying all at once, but yet I sit here with all the apperances of calm cool and collected....OK, issue for the MC was what I posted earlier and mostly I was ranting and venting before I exploded.

What should I be reading now, any suggestions?

You don't have to read it all at once. Just start with the basic concepts (link at the top). After you get through those, go through the Q&A columns. Then the articles. Start a program of education for yourself. Every little bit you get will increase the amount of information you have about how to make your situation better.

wife_02...not sure if you are a religious person, but I have this to offer...Holy Scripture is VERY clear as to what will happen when a spouse withholds SF from the other...Satan WILL tempt...

1 Corinthians 7:5 (I believe) states and I'm paraphrasing since I don't have the verse in front of me, that couples should never deprive one another (EN's), UNLESS it's agreed upon by both spouses, that you may give yourself to fasting and prayer and do so ONLY for a short time and come together (SF) again after, so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self control....

So unless one has rock solid superman morals, withholding EN's for a long period of time has devastating effects...still this doesn't give you the green light to cheat, BUT your hubby has to come to terms with his lack of responsibilities as your husband, lead to your temptation and in your weakness, you failed...He should be protecting you from temptation by meeting and even exceeding your EN's and you should be doing the same for him as his wife.

Through counseling your husband needs to understand where he failed you...yes, he's hurt and you feel guilty, but he put you in this position...IF he were meeting your top EN's more than likely, you wouldn't be here...therefore, he needs to understand that these are the effects of his withholding from you.

Obviously you want to work this out...you've confessed and repented, now the healing has to begin and if he's going to continue to withhold and talk down to you because of what you did, and hold that over your head as a punishment, then you need to make a decision...you could very well cheat again, regardless of how "grown-up" you feel now...

So personally, as I'm going through the same thing as you...my wife has been withholding from me and I did have an opportunity to cheat...the only thing that saved me was she lived 5 hours away and I decided to cut all ties and focus on my marriage for 1 year (we're in counseling) after that, if things haven't improved...I'll have to make a decision...either I stay and have my EN's needs neglected and hope I don't fall into temptation and cheat or I walk...

If I were you, I'd pour on meeting his EN's and through therapy, hopefully he'll realize what got the two of you to this point and he'll begin to meet your EN's...for you it could be a year, two years or five, but IF he doesn't start meeting your EN's...eventually you'll get lonely and will find yourself tempted to cheat again...

Good luck

I just feel like screaming, ranting, and crying all at once, but yet I sit here with all the apperances of calm cool and collected....OK, issue for the MC was what I posted earlier and mostly I was ranting and venting before I exploded.

Partly you feel this way because:

1. You are focusing totally on your marriage, sex, and your husband and not balancing your life with other things.

2. You don't know how to communicate to him what you need in bed.

3. You are afraid of rejection by him in bed...and do not know how to risk rejection to make your sex life better

I have been thru this. I had to learn to communicate openly all about my sexual needs to my husband. I had to risk rejection to get our sex life back on track. I had to forgo intercourse and focus on other things, ways he can please me and I can please him.

If you are upset, get a counselor to talk about how to communicate properly and gently but firmly your needs in the bedroom. Once you master this very important communication, which none of us were born knowing how to do....then you will not feel so helpless.

You can teach your husband to please you in bed without IC if you communicate it the right way and the right time to him.

It will take months to do this and learn to do this. Do you have the time and patience to teach him how to please you in bed?

One quick idea is to switch off. Monday night you please him. Tuesday nite he pleases you only, you do not please him on the nites he pleases you.

That way he gets used to pleasing ONLY you sometimes.

There is a lot more, a counselor could help you.

I'll admit it, I get red faced when trying to tell him what I want, but it usually gets out. With that said, he doesn't want to do what I ask. He thinks I don't know what I want and does what he seems to think I want. He makes me feel selfish and that my needs don't matter and that I am wrong for thinking of sex in the first place. It feels like there is an attitude of "I am a women, therefore I should not want sex". It just seems with my experiences with men is that they are all selfish when it comes to sex or what they truly want. I want something deep and meaningful for us both and I don't mean just sex...I want to follow all of the things outlined here at MB. I feel like my need isn't "just sex". I want intimacy and I'm not sure if he does. He doesn't think anything is wrong. I don't see how we are going to move past everything to a deeper relationship if he refuses to see that he may have been doing something wrong. There was something wrong before I cheated. All he can say is I'm not happy with him....this is going to take a long time

Yes well you aren't so after you get it through his head its not HIM but how he ACTS maybe he will see that he has a choice.

Yes it will take a long time. It also will take consistency and probably will feel like it will never get better sometimes. I like Larrys take also that you both might need IC independantly so you can visiulize independantly what you want out of life and your marriage partner so you can bring something to the table with MC.

It sucks when both of you are foggy and feel victimized and expect the other to change. Wouldn't it be great if you both started asking what bothers you and you both responded?

wife_02...your hubby and my wife are two peas in a pod...I've always been the initiator in regard to my 2 biggest EN's...SF and Affection...recently my wife, a stay-at-home mom for 9 years started taking online classes and working 3 days a week...I guess she thought that our sex life could be put on a shelf...she started turning away from my bids for intimacy...at first it was random, then it became the norm.

once I started bringing the lack of sex in our marriage to her attention, I guess she felt offended...SF has never been her EN, yet I could always trust that when I initiated SF (once a week...maybe in a blue moon, twice a week) she would respond positively...sure there were times she "didn't feel like it", but she always made up for it later in the week.

Now, since I've brought this to her attention, I get the "we're not 16 anymore"..."you're an adult, get over it"...she's referred to herself as a "prostitute" or "a piece of meat"...

Her view of SF in a marriage is that it's all physical for me...just a "release" and I can get that from a "prostitute".

My wife, like your hubby, fails to realize the important role SF plays in a marriage...SF creates a bond, allowing closeness and sexual intimacy and SF separates the many relationships we have in our lives...withholding SF is a dangerous way to express anger...your relationship may appear sincere and loving, but withholding SF places your husband in control...therefore, you are the one responsible for the maintaining of a sexual bond. In not assuming responsibility for nurturing a sexual bond, your hubby is washing his hands from any marital problems, b/c he is not involved.

I know how you feel...I'm busting my [censored] meeting all my wife's EN's every day...I wake up every morning thinking what I can do today to show my wife I love and care for her! But as soon as I think everything is going good and I initiate SF, it's flat out rejection...

With that type of treatment I'm giving, you'd think I pulled a Tiger Woods on my wife or something!

The feeling you are left with is rejection, unattractiveness and unlovable...there is NO other devastating feeling of shame than your spouse no longer desiring you...

i also noticed your "remote control" argument in a previous post...that's a classic sign of "browbeating"...my wife is the master of it...she knows how to draw me into arguing and then make it out like I'm the one who started the argument...then guess what...she has an excuse to say..."no" to SF...and I'm left apologizing for who knows what!

Is it going to take time...yes, but eventually he's going to have to sh*t or get off the toilet and get on board with the healing process or you're going to wake-up one morning and realize there's more to life than a dead end marriage...

My wife and I are in counseling and I've told my counselor just that...as long as I'm putting forth the effort and am motivated, I'm in...but if she continues to drag her feet and makes no attempt to work on our relationship, I'll have no choice but to walk and when I decide to walk...its over...the stress and loneliness in a marriage is hard on you mentally and physically...

wife_02,

What I see in your posts is that you are complaining about his attitude toward your sexual desires

in exactly the way I think that he might complain about YOUR attitude toward his.


What I see in your posts is a focus on SF is a TAKER'S attitude.


Do you see that?


Intimacy cannot possibly be reached if you are in a taker's mood.


You are ASKING him for things.

You cannot possibly GIVE a gift with empty hands. Intimacy is a gift you receive when you GIVE IT AWAY.

I will repeat that, because you must understand that concept:

Intimacy is a gift you receive when you give it away.


You absolutely cannot ask for it, because it can't happen that way. It begins when you STOP asking for things.

It begins when you put the taker away.

SB

Can someone give me the link to the giver and taker thing? I can't find it.

Without trust and total honesty you will have a hard time building intimacy W02.

When you fall in love again you will desire to please each other instead of looking for what you want out of sex. Its not a performance and I think H is looking at it like that.

More later

I agree with SSO on the idea of performance. You need to start with intimacy. Take SEX out of this!

So when Hubby is asking for SF from me, should I refuse? Or lovingly comply?....Still needing the link for giver and taker.

but was intimacy ever apart of this relationship to begin with...wife_02 stated that his withdrawal started shortly after they said "I do"...it was a problem for 2 years...him not meeting her EN's, prior to her stepping out on him...

and I will bet that his previous marriages ending in his ex's cheating was in regard to him not meeting their EN's as well...

MB's has a great concept...I agree with everything and would like to hope that a simple concept as this would work, but wife_02's hubby has some serious deep rooted issues that MB's will not work on...he needs serious therapy or he'll end up divorced again...once he discovers what it is keeping him from wanting the desire to meet his wife's EN's (other than his own selfish reasons)...MB's will be great in restoring their intimacy...

just my .02...

Try this for giver and taker
Biblically you should comply or you could develop the Policy of Joint Agreement...IF he's desiring SF, he should make an attempt to meet your EN's in the process...foreplay...lots of touching and kissing and cuddling...maybe a massage...I don't think I would lay down and open my legs for him IF he's not going to make any attempt to meet your EN's...

Hmmm...kissing, um that doesn't happen....foreplay is a joke....and well, "open my legs for him" that's really not happening...SF for him is really me um "helping him"...I don't get traditional sex. That happens maybe once a month. He hasn't done anything to please me in a LONG time.

With myself and love busters I think I did well today and I am trying to be consistent. I was nice and pleasant, I didn't bother him while he worked on the truck and I helped him make a n important decision. I didn't argue with him over anything, I didn't try to get him to talk about anything (he hates when I try to converse with him because he doesn't usually have anything to say). He seemed rather pleasant and happy today. Oh, and I am firm believer in biblical concepts relating to sex.

Oh, and to Larry, I asked him about a job change and he said he really enjoyed working for Autozone it was her that makes it h@!!. He said when he tranfers after we move he'll be happier with his job. But, I don't know.

And a sound .02 also IMO.

I am just so glad W02 came here to seek out what can be done. Larry commented about how men let women do most of the relationship thinking and I believe that they are naturally prone to understanding them better. There was a study years ago that said the male fetus during the 28th week of gestation gets a hormone washed over the relationship side of the brain which recedes its capacity or should I say it changes the way we respond. It would explain a lot if this is true lol. If it is true then it still depends on many other factors why men handle relationships with a harsh objectivity and a seemingly insensitive nature. Culture, enviroment and what they learn about self worth along with fear of the unknown can effect us all and mold our habits as we put up walls to protect ourselves and loved ones. The biggest falacy sold to ppl is that men lack emotions or that they are something that are not supposed to effect them. When a guy sees his wife cry over a small thing in his mind he wants to help her stop feeling so bad and trivializes it because it doesn't make sense to him. Without that built in need to protect EVERYTHING and multitask his life to that end he will pick ONE thing to protect at a time, logically focusing on what he values the most and is wired to protect, his wife and her happiness and well being. This gender specific roleplaying varies within people and as women can be very strong and focused men can understand also that what is important to them is not allways what is important to others on an emotional level..


Hence the absolute need for deep honest communication over time as we learn how to love others who have thier own life and struggles. We can't fix them so they think like us and not let them grow or they will run away screaming control freak or eventually betray us. At that point who can blame them? We need our free will and to be forgiven when we screw up. We are only human and guaranteed to screw up something in our life.

WEll enough of my rant for now lol TTYL guys. TY for those who jumped in here these guys can get this straightened out and everyone on this site is doing so well in supporting people.

Well, I did see emotion from Hubby last night, I was surprised. We where watching the movie "Mask" about Rocky Dennis. Well, he cried during the scene where the mom found Rocky dead....I didn't say anything or look at him. Yeah, I was crying to. How can you not, it was SOOO SAAAD!!!

I thought Eric Stoltz was the most amazing actor when I saw that flick. Whenever I see Stoltz now I still see Rocky Dennis talking.

Been years since I saw it but yeah, who wouldn't cry.

I can't count on one hand the amounts of times I've seen Hubby cry...I figure it's got something to do with the whole "men don't cry" thing. Strange thing, when his boss from the feed store had a heart attack, he cried, but when his great grandpa dies...nothing. I'm not sure how he's doing with that, he doesn't talk much about him. I think he was having a hard enough time dealing with my confession to process what had happened. I just wished I could remember EXACTLY when I confessed. I know I confessed sometime in 06 but I can't remember what month. Why can't I remember that? I know he remembers it all too well, but why can't I. There are many things I can't remember that I want to.

wife 02, I haven't been here in a couple of weeks, and I am NOT an expert on this - H and a struggle too. But since I got home from the hospital, I have just been doing some little things that I used to do all the time: sitting by H on the couch and then just leaning on his shoulder while he types or plays mafia wars. Sometimes I lay in his lap. If I pass him in our narrow hallway, I just pause and hug him. Sometimes he responds and sometimes he doesn't, but when he does, for those few seconds or minutes, I can still feel that old intimacy, that warm, nuturing kind of feeling, there. No SF since November, so yeah, part of me is climbing the wall. But I feel like if we start connecting both ways leaning on the couch, or hugging in the hall, or holding hands at times....the kind of SF we need to be having will come. Heck, for the two or three years prior to my A four years ago, we were having sf 3-4 times a year, so if I need to wait a little while longer and "lead" him gently, I can do that.

Oh, and next time you are both crying over a movie together, reach out for his hand, or tak a tissue and wipe a tear from his face. Touching while expressing emotion can be very intimate.

I had been holding his hand, but he let go of it right before the sad scene. It is very hard to show affection to him because he is not accepting of it. He was like that before I cheated. He doesn't like to be hugged, touched, or kissed. When I try to hug him, he just lets his arms hang limp. But, my ENs are Affection...I'm not sure how to rate the other 4, but affection is #1 right now and I can't see the others...Family commitment is important, he just doesn't really play with the children and resents having to watch them, so I try not to ask. I belong to a MOPs group(mothers of preschoolers) and once a month they have a moms night out where we go to each others houses and play games or we all go to a resturant. Hubby just refuses to let me go by sabotaging it somehow. He claims that our 2 year old screams for me the entire time I'm gone, which I find that hard to believe. I have never gotten to go. I guess 4 hours once a month is too much to ask. I just hope for a break from the kids, but he tells me it's my job and then I get the his job is harder speech and sometimes I get the "some of us have to go to work" comment. I just don't get it.

How badly did he want the children?

Did you plan out who would care for the children once they were born?

Was sex better before the children came?

Bubbles she said at the begining that HE wanted her to get pregnant even before they married. She also said sex was much better before the marriage.

W02 I understand the pain of rejection coming from him when you want to share a tender moments and he pulls his hand away. It bites..

I still stnd on my opinion that this guy has no idea what he is putting himself and you through. His lack of affection for you and the kids is isolating him from the things he should be working for. I am a firm beliver in working to live not living for work. Hope he finds help in this soon.


Hang in there, keep talking and keep learning. He has locked himself in a prison that only he can walk out of. Even if you blow open the door he will just build another door untill he sees that his prison is not protecting him but lieing to him. Its in his head.

I do want to say that he loves his children very much, he just doesn't know what to do with them. WE took them to the park a while back and he told me he doesn't like taking them because he's bored, well, I wanted to say it's for them, not you. I don't remember how I got him to go but I did and he spent his time flipping tiny rocks at me. He would rather be at home tinkering with his car or doing stuff around the house or mowing the yard. I don't understand it, he has cared for children in the past, girlfriends would have kids from past relationships, friends that lived with him (women) who had kids. There was one little girl that he come to think of as his whose mom was a friend. So I don't understand why it is so hard on him to watch his own kids. I remember him telling me before we had children that he really wanted a little girl. Now I'm wondering if he was missing the little girl that he thought of as his own. He even took vacation time to care for his nephew when he was a newborn because his mother had to have surgery. When he told me how he took care of him. he described a form of attachment parenting! I know this boys mother and it was probably the closest this kid got to good parenting! (If it hadn't been for Hubby's parents I don't think this kid would have had a chance at being a decent person).

To lurioosi2, I noticed you said you've been in the hospital...are you feeling ok? I don't know what's wrong but I hope your healing and get well soon!

He needs therapy so he can be a kid again too. Everyone has a right to feel sorry for themselves when they have been hurt but there comes a point when you should realize if you are letting it ruin your life.

Of course you can stay bitter and let the painful thing have a place in the rest of your life as a new outlook. Many people do. The holding onto of past experiences seems to be how H wants to deal with everything. I wonder how much of what he is afraid of is related to how embarrassed he might feel if he gave counselling a chance compared to how safe he feels in his own mind.

Can you challange him to work on the marriage? Maybe thats an angle that will motivate him. Probably will tick him off tho huh? He seems content to stay safe and negative so he wont be caught with his pants down. Its understandable but so sad because he is losing out on a chance to grow with you. Again in his world and mind making a mistake is opening yourself up for ridicule and losing respect.

I don't know how many mechanics that I ticked off when I would not bend to thier critisizm and took on the challange of cars that were brought to 3 shops and 2 dealerships when I would finnaly repair them. Those guys just got bitter and were to filled with pride to admit I was right. But it didn't matter to me because I wasn't getting baited into the way they like to operate. I thought of them as worse than a gossip. Men gossip and don't you fool yourself they all can feel better if they can point out others mistakes. I won't go there because its just ignorant and would not make me better than them but worse if you KWIM.

H lives in that kind of world W02 and he is safe in it as long as he thinks like them. Its a "ahem" mans world so to speak, where they can belong to the "He mans women hater club".

Well, we had a nice time last night. I helped him with stripping the truck of parts. I even took off the starter and was busting lugnuts loose on the tires. It almost felt like a slight glimmer of may be intimacy. We laughed more than we talked...well, we didn't really talk at all. But it seemed like we were having fun. And we got to do this alone. Somehow there were ENs being met. That's all that matters.


I do sometimes balk at helping him work on stuff like that because I am afraid he won't see me as feminine, I told him about it and his answer was no. Idk?

lol well being "feminine" seems to be attached to him thinking women are weak-minded and clueless.

It would probably be a big turn-on for him if you got all greasy and were wearing some coveralls and one day when you were working together you came on to him while you were working on the truck. Remember "rosy the riveter" The pinup of a female welder who worked on navy ships in WW2 because all the guys were overseas fighting? Your husband respects practical knowledge and hard work maybethis is a way to reach him.

Who knows, maybe someday he will be crying over a "chick-flick" with you while you give each other manicures to clean up those nasty nails you got from working on the cars that day.

How is the diet thing goin for you guys? That is very important not just for his health but also for his moods. High blood sugar can make you just operate out of your head and makes it hard to even feel emotions which he needs to process. Read up on it. (crap, more reading).

Grats on that time of laughter and togetherness "Rosie"...

The diet is going OK...needs a few adjustments. Just trying to get used to cooking this new way.

Goin on a date with Hubby Sunday ALLL day!!! We are going to a swap meet for car parts, and I can't wait. I just wished that he didn't think I was "pawning the kids off on a sitter".

That was terrific. Do it more. The trip Sunday sounds great, don't worry about him worrying.

Larry

That attitude bugs me a little. Would he like to pay you to sit for the kids? Maybe get Dr. phil to come over and watch them so he can feel safe and guilt free to take out his wife?

I know you are seeing small steps in the right direction and its probably not something I would complain about to him but its worth noting that he should desire to spend time with you alone without the children. The question is why doesn't he and its something to think about. (No guesses as to why not at this time, ive beaten that horse to death).

Ok, for your sake W02 I want to ask if getting into cars is something you would want to do even if it didn't involve your husband? It could be a great tool to connect with hubby either way but there is two sides to what it could mean for you personally. The optimum circumstance is that you allready liked the car stuff and were into it before you met Hubby. That of course would mean you had more in common but it of course would not have stopped him from shutting you off, would it? Or is the reason or part of it he married you because he allready internally felt like such a failure that he didn't deserve better.
Sorry if that hurts but in terms of selfrespect it might have a place in how he treats you. I AM NOT saying he doesn't love you with all he has to give, just that he has to love himself first in order to give love.

Ok back to the car stuff. If you want to get into it then I want to encourage you. You have to have a personal interest that strikes your heart positivly though or it will only be something you do to be with your spouse and if he doesn't do the same for you..it will be torture.

I can speak from experiance about one specific time for me comparing why I got an interest in algbra.

When I was in 6th grade I stopped even doing the homework for math. I never memorized the timestable and struggled with math most of my younger life. It had to do with other things not math itself but life issues that I didn't care or couldn't get into math. The old saw.."He can do it if he would just try" just made me feel like more of a failure when the teachers explained the water I was drowning in.

When I was tested in high school my abilities were off the chart for everything technical but I was still wrestling with self-esteem issues and spent most of high school trying to be someone I wasn't so I never applied myself in education then. In my twentys I had IQ test of 130 and what the shrink called an unmeasurable insight into understanding social situations and thier outcome. (I still don't know what that means exactly but its sure not some guarantee that i could avoid them I guess). I still wasn't good with math..

After my second marriage and when my daughter was 1 year old I had a job in a Gov't military company and found that I really liked what I was doing assembling circuit boards for submarines. It was skilled labor. There was an in-house course in basic electronics and the prerequsite was high school algrebra. I still had a hard time with long division never=mind algrebra so I asked an engineer guy I knew to help me with the pretest. In one night he got it thru my thick skull the basics and I passed the test.
In the next 6 months of electronic design classes I learned algebra and calculus and was able at the end of the course to understand simultaneos equations and it you gave me a circuit board that I could read the components on I could write out the process on a blackboard mathamatically. I als made less math mistakes than the engineers I was in class with and graduated at the top. The class was the equivelent of a two year electronics course given at your average comm colledge but it was compressed and streamlined by the company I worked for. It was quite an accomplishment but why I could do it was more imporatant than how.

When I was in 6th grade what was my motivation? To please my parents and peers. That was not gonna happen and I eventually gave up. I was also just a young kid who couldn't see how good it would have been to learn all that for my future. As far as I knew then all that mattered was my present situation and my relationship with my folks, which was lacking.
When I took the electronics course at 27 I had a goal before me to provide for my wife and child and the hope of a future with pocket protectors and whatever other nurdy stuff it took to have a solid carreer. I knew it was up to me and I kept my nose to the grindstone with confidance that it was a just cause. I pictured the great future our family could have with the financial security and the presents I could give them. I saw good things in it and became excited about the whole picture.

Do you remember in the old testament the scripture. "Without a vision the people perish"? I am not a scholar, <in fact I can't even spell it, but to me it has a special meaning that applies to everyone, (isn't that what God intended?).

People have this gift of imagination from God. We need to look up and outside our circumstances at all times. We need to visualize something better and work for it all our life. Many people see how foolish others are and judge that because they are falible and we all act crazy its a wild card for us to act the same and nobody can judge us. Have you ever met someone whom you thought would know better that made absolutly dumb mistakes?. At times its so easy to say everyone is crazy and stupid so who can judge me? If we use this as an excuse for our own poor behavior than we are on the dark side of how we use our imagination to better our circumstances. We make excuses. But..If we understand our human weaknesses and trust the love laid out in the rules God gave us, we can move foward, making mistakes yes, but forward we go growing as we learn how fragile we are. Forgiving yourself allways comes first before you can forgive others, (seems to be a problem with Hubby). You first have to be willing to admit you make mistakes, (seems to be the other problem), and you need to not be afraid to explore the possibility that you are wrong,(oops another one).

I have allways been a seriuos guy, thought a lot, felt depressed and worthless also. It took the ridiculous idea that I didn't have to beat myself up all the time for me to accomplish anything worthwhile in my life. I had to believe I was worth it. I did not get that kind of support from negative, critical, paranoid people who think thier self worth revolves around what others think of them or what they can prove to others. I have been down that road and those types allways find a way to pidgeon -hole you and subject you to thier own religiuos standards. You know..the 500+ rules they keep just so they can be better than you because inside they really are not secure.


Your hubby is a smart man, a responsible guy but I doubt he has ever been truly at peace with himself. I think he drives himself to do whats right and is waiting to reap the benifets. Some of what he is waiting for, if its like..his feelings of vindication at how he was hurt..will not be satisfied reguardless of how long he waits. I wonder what his spiritual belief system is. Does he see churches as full of hypocrites? That has some truth in it. I understand that. I wonder this.. What would choose to do and think of you if he had absolutly no fear? What experience in life would he need to come to grips with the fact that life was good? What needs to happen for him? How much is realistic to expect for you W02 to provide?

I hope you really get into the car fix thing and that someday he gets into doing your painting in the house for you. Both of you enthusiastically agreeing that its fun. When you both can hope and visualize these things as enjoyable parts of a life together it will happen.

Untill H seeks out internally what his issues are it will be hard to get him into a positive state of mind. I suspect he has a long history of life kicking him in the nuts and I pray for him because I really want to see him and you recover and he is not here to talk to nor is he venting to anyone who can help.

Because MB is designed to help anyone in relationships your application of it to him and your marriage is the only hope for him. otherwise he will stay stuck in a negative world where the only use of imagination will be how worse it might get.


Thats all for now..

Tell me W02 is what I write helping you? I have written a lot and because I feel I have a lot in common with your husband I have much interest in you guys.

There is IQ, the processing of hard facts, and EQ, the processing of emotions, which are not based on hard facts but on empathy and other stuff. Social situations is a part of EQ, like math ability is a part of IQ. Many years ago they did not have much developed testing for EQ although the shrinks were aware of the concept and the difference between IQ and EQ.

Larry

OH W02 I almost forgot, Get the book by Scott Peck called "The road less traveled"

Its not a book on relationships as much as a source of insight on yourself. Well its a very popular book. I recommend it to everyone.

I am sure you will find some pearls of wisdom in it.

Uh, I think it is helping 02 but will let her say for herself. I do know that I am getting a lot out of it.

Larry

Thanks Larry,

I grew up with a hard-nose Dad that had problems with paranoia and only worried about how other saw him and if I had followed his footsteps I shudder to think how bitter I would have become. What was the most painful was that I eventually saw right through it and realized I could never make him happy. It still was something I wanted to save him from though. I could see past his tough exterior he tried to live in and see the lonliness he felt because he really was a sensitive man. When I had my own children and life caused me to think about them I could not help him any more than to teach his grandchildren well and give them the type of support that balances thehard cold facts about money against the real reasons to live..Our relationships...
I have my Mom and her strength along with the examples of my fathers father that taught me that. Gramps was a mans man and a mecanic his whole life but was kind and undersatnding without being a pushover. He was balanced where my dad wasn't.

I guess I just know the differance and truly I do not take any credit. It was the love of others that I accepted that allow me to care. It was given to me. I could never create it. None of us can. None of us would given a choice and from a position of fear and power. We would just judge and critsize and hide in our perfection lol. That gives new meaning to "Lean not unto your own understanding" to me anyways itsbeen a lifesaver.

This site has helped me process my feelings of guilt and undersatnad what I put myself thru during my marriage and at different times in my life. I learned here that I am not strong enough to endure years of betrayal and deceit without its taking its toll on me. I wanted to be that strong but that was a fantasy and expectation I put on myself. I allowed someone to control how I felt about myself and they took atvantage of it because they felt entitled. God never told me to do that but I allowed it anyway while I slowly burnt out physically and mentally. I got waht I asked for when I allowed myself to be a victem. Who was I to try to survive and florish against those odds? MB puts a timeframe on Plan A and its not "marriage at all costs" for a good reason.

I am reminded of the niel simon song ..

"He wore his passion for his woman like a thorny crown..
He said..
Deloress... I live in fear,
My love for you so overpowering Im afraid I might..dissapear"

So I am here learning also so I can heal and balance and help our children live better lives and the good things my wife and I wanted for them when we were a team will come true. But mostly I am here for myself because I need to feel useful. I hope that what I post here helps avoid unessesary pain for others as I process my own.

Well, it isn't manly for a guy to give another guy a hug. And I certainly am "Such A Guy," as most women will tell you about me. In this case, I will not make an exception.

But, I understand. I really do.

Larry

Well, SSO, you always give me SO much to chew on, and think about. I think I am going to be reading that long post for a couple of days!

The car thing was discouraged by my mother when I was a child. But I remember the first fast car I ever saw a pontiac trans am and it was black painted with a bird on the hood...I know now it was because of " Smokey and the Bandit" but anyway I was about 5 or so and I thought it was the best thing I ever saw and I have loved them ever since.

When I was a little older I remember wanting to know everything there was to know about what made a car work, well my dad was no mechanic, it took him HOURS to replace a battery or change a tire. I remember at around 10 or so looking at an engine and being baffled by how this thing worked. My mother discouraged such things. She couldn't understand why a girl wanted to know such things.

I remember getting an interest in baseball and I was watching a game on tv and my mom came in and said "You don't like baseball" and I never said another word about it to her...nevertheless I had a baseball, mit,and bat and she had the nerve to tell me I didn't like it. I felt she was trying to make me into something I wasn't. No wonder I have had this identity crisis almost my entire life. I used to sit around and think "who am I and why am I here". I still think that when I'm not busy. I think that's another reason why I felt so upset about turning 30 this year.

But, yes I love muscle cars. I get this thrill when I get to ride in Hubby's 76 Chevelle...I get a thrill when I hear that lope of a cam. When I was at this car show, I was taking pictures like crazy...I had three absolute favorites, a trans am, a corvette and this car someone customized it looked like a "gangster car" only streamlined.

I have always thought in the back of my mind Hubby settled for me somehow...although I'm not sure why. He was always attracting women back when I met him (he's gone prematurely, um silver and his beard has gone almost white and he likes to blame me for it even though it's hereditary in his family) In Hubby's family, you either go bald at an early age or you go white early. when I met him he was 29 and almost white and a small strip in his beard(which was a goatee at the time).

That's another little vent I have, he could care less what I like. I like the mustache and goatee that was something that attracted me to him in the first place. I hate the full beard and he refuses to shave it. I could barely act sexual to him during December cuz he had this Santa Clause look going on. He thought I was being mean, but I was serious. It felt REALLY weird to suddenly have Santa run through my mind while "pleasing" Hubby. If he would just get rid of the sides and go back to that sexy goatee I like so much. I keep my hair long for him...shoot, I'd shave it for him whenever he needed it. I wouldn't mind.


Oh, let's not talk about math...math makes me want to vomit, literally. It makes my head swim, I get sick to my stomach, almost like reading in a car type sick. Just thinking about it makes me sick. I don't know why exactly, I think it goes back to my horrible 2nd grade teacher who used to call me names like hardhead. But, in reality I was a good student who wanted nothing but to make my teacher bust with pride because I was so super smart. I never learned the times table, I never caught onto division and only recently do I understand fractions. I was forced to understand fractions because my job involved weighing things. I sort of had it when I was a young teen from looking at a pizza that had been cut, but not like I do after having worked those particular jobs.

What do I like personally without Hubby, I like muscle cars, I like baseball and I like to write stories and poems. I absolutely love music. I can live without tv, but I think I would shrivel up and die without music. I love to sing and I think I am ok at it, I need a few lessons. My dream is to be the proud owner of a cherry red 69 or 70 corvette stingray, to sing in front of an audience and have a loud applause, to write a best selling novel, and to help other people in some way that doesn't have to deal directly with them. Now, what does that say about me and who I am....there's that identity crisis raising it's ugly head again....

I have more on your post later once I chew on it some more....I still can't figure out why I thought it was ok to cheat though. I'm still trying to peel back layers of my life to get to my core...

I wanted to say something about this. It feels weird to like cars without Hubby. I'm not sure if I made sense or not. I want to say it goes back to my mother. She has also told me I am like a chameleon and will blend into my environment so not to upset the other person. She has said "I do not like cars" Well, if i don't like cars then how come I have loved trans ams since I was 5?? How come my head whips around whenever I see a 69-71 corvette stingray? (Ah, those cars are so gorgeous). See, because my mother kept telling me what I don't likefrom such a young I have a hard time figuring thing out. I find my self analyzing myself over this car thing "Do I really like cars, or do I only like cars because hubby is into them" I go through this a lot and I am tired of it. You know I had fun taking parts off of the truck the other night apart from the fun I shared with hubby. I enjoyed busting the lug nuts loose on the tires (even though it was a pain to bust them loose I have never felt anything so doggone TIGHT in my life!). I enjoyed it, I would have enjoyed it if I had been alone.

OK that's all for now.

Awesome W02 so thats good news you allready liked cars and you are having fun so it seems there is a place you two can spend time together.

The math thing was about motivation and positive outlook more than anything. heck its been 25 years and i forgot all that stuff and i didn't use it much since then.

You have a lot to look forward to and it sounds like fun going to the swap meet.

My dream muscle car would be a Dark purple 70 GTX with a 440 colored Purple faded down to black at the bottom. See if you can pick me up one at the swap meet for around $1 and 50 cents and ill pay you back...I'm good for it..

Would your dream vette have the 427? My buddy had one. I would be like Jay Leno if i collected cars. There are just so many of them I like. lol.

Hey larry, over here.... .

On my fathers side of the family those big burly boys and there dad,(grampa to me), never got away with not giving Gram a kiss and we all hugged each other. My 19 yr old Son hugs and kisses me on top of the head daailey,(he is 6'4"}and my other two are free with affection also. They refer to me as a "bull" and think I am tough as nails but I allways told them the toughest men were those who knew they were flesh and blood and weak. Someone on this site said.."Big boys don't cry but Men do"..and I never told them to push down ther emotions but to understand them and to fear the right things not to try to be fearless. I hug my guy freinds when its appropiate and females too. I also say "luv ya" or "give everyone my love" at the ends of phone convos just so they know.

When ppl said to me in my past.."How do you do that? You worked on that for 36 hrs straight with no sleep. Nobody else could figure out how to fix it and you did. You must be so smart. " I would explain it was because I knew I wasn't smart that gave me the confidance that I shouldn't give up and if one man could build it I could eventually fix it if I sought enough help. (Horse -sense?). As far as the 36 hrs I needed to get paid to eat and I wasn't gonna let it beat me..lol. I like to think that those qualities are ones that men ussuauly reflect when we utilize our tendencies to look at one piece of the puzzle at a time and become so focused that the rest of the world becomes background noise. Thank God that the women in our lives can snap us out of it huh? Im sure you agree based on what you have allready said about how men think.

Ok SSO

I teach my boys it is ok to hug.


Men generally have the vocabulary to express mad, glad and sad according to conventional wisdom. I add, horny and confused.

Larry

Well, interestingly enough, Hubby hugs and kisses our 2 yr old son several times a day as well do I. I am hoping that is teaching him a valuable life lesson. Even though Hubby isn't very affectionate towards me I am hoping Sonny(not his real name) grows into a man who isn't afraid of affection and shows love to his future wife. I just hope that Hubby gets over some of the way he treats me or Sonny may be doomed to go down that path.

Ask your husband to shave the way you like it, or better yet shave him yourself. Give him a coupon to a mens salon.

He knows I don't like the beard and I have asked him a few times to shave it and he refuses. It's just a losing battle. He says he likes it and that's that. Hell could freeze over and he still wouldn't shave. I would shave him myself if he'd allow it.

In the last 7 months since my wifes passing I have went a whole week without shaving at times. My sons say "Dad, why don't we all grow a beard? You look great in one. Well... I decided to call my laziness/depression part of not shaving "growing a beard" and gave it a shot. I used to shave twice a day and did not like beards on me, the jury is still out on that one.

It kinda makes me feel like Jack Nicolson from "The Departed" and someone said I looked like "Robert Deniero". Those are not the kinds of images I want to project. LOL. My boys as much as I taught them that everybody is flesh and blood and nobody is tough still have some kind belief that I am a tough guy. Well they are young still and since wifes passing they need to feel safe that I will be around. Its funny how they fuss over my health but still hold onto me being tough.

It takes me a whole month to grow a stash lol.




Maybe you could mix Nair into the water suppy for the shower 02?

Sorry, didn't see a one 70 gtx...did see a 68 rally sport camaro.

Hubby did realize that it was better to leave the kids with a sitter. Not sure if was the right reasons though. But, at least I found it to be a learning experiance about car part and Hubby says I have new new expensive habit...I have started to collect 69 vettes (die cast models). I found a 1:18 scale 69 vette that I drooled over. I told him now he can say he bought me a brand new 69 vette lol. And at 20 bucks a pop...that can get expensive, he told me I needed to find a way to support my habit, I asked him how and he got a big grin on his face and told me to find more steel to haul!
I think bonded over car parts today !!

Is the rally better than the SS? I like the Super sports or was it 69 that camaros were made SS?. Ah well. Can't have everything I guess...

Im glad you are opening new ways to communicate with your H.

Is he opposed to reading the Harleys MB books?

I don't know about the differences between rallys and SS...

Hubby is opposed to reading anything that isn't a car part catalog. He claims he can't read, while I think he has a mild form of dyslexia. He can read when he HAS to. But, as for reading a book, no, I don't think he has cracked a book since '92.

I think SS,(super sport), was mostly just fast. Rally i am guessing because if I knew before I forgot, had stripes and was a racing, (not drag, but street racing), machine.

Audio books. Used book store to save money. WEB Griffin for a start if he likes military stuff.

Larry

OK, the difference between a rally and a SS is the SS was the deluxe model and the rally was the lesser model. Hubby said it was little things that made the SS "better".

I have been going through depressed moods and happy moods and I feel like it driving me crazy...going to call the councellor Mon and see if there isn't someone I can see on the order of a is it psycologist? or something like this....I don't know how much longer I can take this...I feel like I am going crazy!

See a Phychiatrist, who is a medical doctor. Most therapists know one they can refer you to. Phycologists many times become therapists. Phychiatrists have to go to medical school and are more qualified to deal with real mental/chemical illnesses and are the only ones who can prescribe medication.

About the SS thing, thats what what I thought.

Hang loose till you see the doctors they can help

How ya doin W02?

I also wanted to mention. Sometimes when we are going thru real tough times and life is out of balance our brain chemistry follows. During those times medication has helped many ppl get thru.

Its a question of how much of my problems are because of a chemistry issue?..and how much of my chemistry issue is because of my problems?.

IN the long run whatever it takes to live normal, productive and happy lives is what you need and it takes time and outside help.

I do think my brain is a little out of whack.

Since being outside helping hubby work on the car I have been feeling somewhat better!

We have started to uncover some important things with the mc, like why hubby can't verbally say "I love you" to me.

On a much happier note, I have been meeting a major EN of hubby's by helping him with the car. I'm not sure if I mentioned it but one of his is quality time. Not only that, but I am seeing how the concept of spending time together is working wonders. He even paid me a compliment on my appearance! I think it's hard for him to do that since he thinks words mean nothing and actions are everything.
He told me his love tank was overflowing. If I feel this in love with him by just two of my ENs are being met, I can't imagine how I would feel with all of them. I am having trouble though figuring out the rest of my hubby's are...I know 3, it's the other 2 that leave me scratching my head. But, I think we are doing great so far. I know there is still work to do, but I think the progress so far is great! I am so excited!

Very very good news you are going in the right direction. Im all verclempt....talk amoungst yurselves....


Grats

And I thought I had a large vocab...I had to look up verklempt!

02

Ummmmm. . .

How about

Sounds like progress. Good for you both.

Larry

I did shed a tear when you said Hubbys lovebank was overflowwing..

Are you taking care of his diet? I will haunt you about this.

There will be a test next week.


You might need to be the one who lays down the law on this for his own good.

He can eat right, (around 2000 cals I would guess for him) And have more energy than he ever thought possible. I was 30 yrs old, 5,10, 185 lbs. and worked construction plus a full time job. I fel t strong and tons of energy without the jitterys-ness of caffiene, fat , and sugar. This is my gift to him and to you also.

You are what you eat and you become what you think..

Get his diet under control and it will bless both of you.

Take it seriuos now.


God bless you two.

I have discovered the art of roasting veggies! I have roasted potatoes and asparagus and I was wondering if this can be done with frozen veggies...I just have this thought that frozen veggies would turn out soggy.
Anyway, he has an appointment with a nutritionist this week and I hope to learn quite a bit so I can better cook for him. I can't wait for the Farmers Market to start in this area so I can get lots more fresh veggies! He can have between 2000 and 2500 (I think that's right) I know I can have around 1500-1800 a day...I swear that 1800 for weight loss is so wrong, but when I am trying to lose weight I exercise like a crazy person, so I guess it balances out for the calorie burn. Anyway, I am trying hard to get the diabetic diet down and his sugar is almost normal it has been in the 160s and the doc wants it in the 120s. I can't help but wonder if that's his normal is. With his weight that's another issue. I know his normal would be considered overweight because of his build. If you have ever seen Big Show from WWE, take 6 inches of height and 100lbs away, that's my hubby!. The first time I saw Big Show I did a double take...he looks so much like him(if you've never seen Big Show, just do a google search). If my hubby was in the same shape as the wrestler I don't think a person could tell them apart if it was just a shot of them neck down. Yes, I am bragging about my hubby!!! I wuvs him so much!!

I just remember when the kid on the bernie mac show called him from bernies phone. lol No wait ..That was triple H


I met Sgt Slaughter once in front of a recruiting site in conn., back in 88.
Those guys are Large. I have big hands for a short guy, (5'9" now, used to be 5'10"1/2 but ya shrink as you age), but his handshake was impressive. As the look of genuine humanity in his eyes. I was thanking him for supporting the troops.

Sounds like you are moving foward 02, what is the most cool is that you are both enjoying each other and thats what its all about. I hope you guys enjoy the books and grow together as it seems you are on the right track.

His Doctor and nutritionist are the best judge of calorie count for him. What is in the calories is also important for everyone. I can see you know this I just wanted to encourage you to explore all the angles to your new calorie counting venture.

A couple of links for dieters

http://www.booklounge.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780609807620 Robert Haas. (The scientist not the poet) wrote a book in the 80s that when I combined his wisdom with counting calories made me the best fed diabetic and what was most surprising I felt better than ever.

To deal with the cravings I am currently looking for help with Dr Daniel Amen. who also uses diet and is teaching how to reduce cravings to lose weight. Here is a link to his clinic and homepage.
http://www.amenclinics.com/clinics/getting-started/
I have watched him on PBS and he seems sound. I spent the big bucks for his total package on
"Change your brain,Change your body."
He is a real Dr. who works with all forms of mental illness and has the science to back him up. He prefers natural supplements, therapy and removing the sources of negative thinking as the way to health and happiness.

I went to Dr. Amen's site and I put in hubby's info and it says he need to eat almost 5000 cals to maintain his weight....I know he doesn't eat that many cals!!! But it said he need to cut 500 which he would need 4398 and that sounds like a ridiculously high amount! It told me in order to lose weight it said over 2000 for myself.
A doc once gave him a diet to follow and it was only 1800 cals. Who is right???

Like I said I got by working two jobs with 1,500 calories a day. But that was me then.
I think that the site for Dr Amens stuff list my cal intake high also. I was really more interested in his ":Brain type, craving type" diet hints.

Its gonna take some time till you get all the ducks in a row but till them go with what the nutritionist says.

According to one of the screening tools, my brain has a lot of problems and I have more than one eating disorder. It's so hard to call it an eating disorder. Those words just sound so dirty to me. But I guess I need to call it what it is. I can't seem to kick sugar, it has become an addiction I guess. Well, it's to the point where I feel like I HAVE to have it. I've tried to kick this habit before and every time I seem to kick it, it comes back with a vengence. May be I could have a one on one session with a counselor, I don't know, I just know I think I need help.

sweet things like aspartame and sacarine trigger sweet tooths too. They work like appatizers lol what a rip off huh?

Ahh, the diet pop!! My sweet tooth didn't come back with a vengence until I started drinking it!! No more! No more drugs er I mean sugar!

its wise to realize food can be abused also and has druglike effects on us.

Shirley MCclaine was qouted on saying although I don't know where it came from originnally, "We are what we eat and we become what we think".