oh we fight. i am an extremely honest person. but i do not think yelling or namecalling is okay. and that is where i draw the line. we discus everything in front of the kids and with the kids. there are no secrets between me and my kids . i agree it has to end. and thank-you for your productive advice. i'll have to read your thread a litttle bit cause i bet they don't like that your not married here either. i feel like a pariah.

but as for the renter free;oader, buyer book. funny , i always wanted to open a thrift store named freeloaders so i could sell some of the great stuff people would otherwise throw away. someas for the renter mentality. i will take this book out at the library and read some excerpts this morning on the internet. i will read more and write more tomorrow morning. thanks for productive advice.
i am a bit of a freeloader or renter or whatever- if conditions get too unbearable- i will move out. if he will not co-operate and just fakes it a little bit- when do i know to leave then though. blatant verbal and physical abuse is easy to identitify. but what about the emoptional abuse of saying he doesn't care and too bad and refusing to answer my questions and stonewalling.
the abuse has been mostly gone with the prescription meds but there is still some yelling and mostly insidious emotional abuse. i want resolution of this crisis. there has been no contact with affair partners for 3 years to the best of my knowledge- and i snooped compulsively for a time and we spend a lot of time together.
i try to do right. please give me the benefit of a doubt and give me a hand. iam not totally spineless. i do stand up for myself with my words- spoken- written. i like to read self-help books too.
more tomorrow-

I am not married because I would lose all that my adopted daughter ( grand Daughter) and I get from my husband that passed away...

Look I know you might be in a really bad spot...
I am lucky I own my own home
and if it came to me having my BF leave he would be the one to go...
I don't have that to worry about...
You might...

My thing is the kids...
We never have fought around my grand daughter ..
We don't talk about our problems around her at all...
But we have never fought like that no name calling ...

I wouldn't want my grand daughter to hear that stuff at all..
Kids learn by what they live and see... I know that
And I know as she gets older if she ask why we are not married ..I am going to have some explaining to do...

I have got the book surviving the affair and have read it I am in plan A right now...

I still need to get the other book...
As I am learning here

I am not in the stop to really give you advice....
But on the kids... I feel I can tell you what I think and feel about that...

What worries me if he is abusive to you
is he or could he be to the kids???
That is something to me as a mom would never allow or take a chance on....

Mama,

I don't post here very much, I read and follow, and sometimes take exception.

I don't believe that because of a lack of a peice of paper means that its less of a relationship, and I for one am certainly not going to belittle someone for not having that paper.
Your feelings and emotions are as valid as anyone who has that paper, the heart doesn't know the paper and it does make the heart feel any different.
I have an Aunt who has been with her "boyfriend" for 30yrs, they have never needed to get married, they love and adore each other, my aunt now has parkinsons and he is still at her side and will be till the end!
That is more then alot of "married" men would do for there wives!

So only help should be offered and not unkind words, when someone is looking for support it should be given.

In your case Mama, I think that you have to decide what you want, I know it is important for you to be together for the kids, however they must see his treatment of you, so is it really a good situation.
I believe you must tell him how you feel and if he wount listen then you must make some decisions.

thank-you old hat. you seem like a very nice person. all of this is very good advice. i have been trying to tell him how i feel and what i need and what i will not tolerate.
there has been a lot of good progress too in the past 3 years. one of the biggest being changing his sleep schedule to fit ours where he used to say he could only work the night shift- he is a self-employed computer-programmer. he also quit his prescription speed(adderol) some of the worst was when he was on that stuff. although i will not let hime blame his behaviors totally on that. during that time period was when he had the actual physical affairs. one was in 2005-business trip to LA. and one late 2006-feb11/2007. d-day. the other two were on-line flirtations with no meetings but also pre-speed so there are no excuses.
i think it may be right that there is a failure to really commit on both of our parts. i can see some of that renter mentality applying to myself . i think i even used to say something like if it's more bad than good- why bother. also, we are both conflict-avoiders , i am sure. i am pretty sure he even uses his temper tantrums to get away without talking about serios issues. yelling is a way to get me to leave him alone so i won't make him talk about anything he doesn't want to talk about

he also yells at the kids. not very mean. but his impatient and sarcastic and over-critical. but you should see his mom. i know, disrespectful judgement. i also have mom-in-law and sister-in-law problems by proxy. my family still loves me though. but they all live quite far away and my sisters both have brand-spanking-new marriages and babies. i am honest with all of them, but i do not want to be aburden on them. i feel i have been a burden to my dear old mom and dad who listen but seem at aloss(they are sorta conflict-avoiders too, i think) that is why i am here, unloading my burden to strangers.

also- i am very honest with my kids. they did not realize we were not married. kind of like they can play with kids speaking other languages at the playground when they are little and not hardly even seem to notice. i don't think they really started to question until lately. they saw no difference between our relationship and the way there gramma and grampa(who are married) live together or their aunts or uncles or neighbors. they never noticed we didn't wear rings or asked to see the proper paperwork.
why did i not get marries. i do not know exactly. making a mockery out of public institutions i guess. i guess the jokes on me. i thought when we had kids it was like getting married. i thought it was serious all along. i thought we were commited . he pretended.

M is a LOT more than a "slip of paper". It's also a publicly-executed promise of love, trust and commitment between the spouses. In my experience, persons who reduce the concept of M to a "piece of paper" are really avoiding the commitment aspect for some reason.

Yes, I'm sure that many persons can point to exceptions of "loving persons living for years and years together without being M'd", but the point to take note of here is that these are EXCEPTIONS.

iam willing to accept i may have been missing something about what being married actually means. as for the public announcement, we are both somewhat alone in the world and his family is not accepting of us for some reason. they swore it wasn't because we weren't married, i asked point blank to his mother. this marriage issue has come up. i think he has asked me several times but i took it as a joke. i don't know why. maybe it is me. we are poor. we don't have too much family around. we were busy raising children together. i thought that was enough of a commitment.
it was not just oops. we were together for a year, i got pregnant- no birth control. we knew full well it could happen. there was no deceit or tricks. we decided to do it together. what a commitment! and then we liked it so much we did it all over again 20 months later. 2 boys in 2 years. i am not sure he was ready. but i was. and i raised those little boys so happily. i was full time mom. i breast fed them both till they were 3. so i guess i neglected my man too. i was so over- tired and over-touched. there was no room for him in our family bed. then there was the inernet- some porn- then the prescription, than worse online stuff. and then culminationg in real?-life affairs along with his "good" well-paying corporate jobs. now we are self employed again and it is much better
but the yelling and namecalling and "i don't care" -ing sometimes recurs. and open and honest communication is hard for us. we need help

i would even go so far to say that loving long-term relationships- including marriages- are the exceptions in our culture. especially loving honest open marriages. you all are ahead of the grade here, i think. but most people are not really very honest or loving and marriages often don't last either.
i don't belong to one of the big 3 religions- although i respect spiritual people trying to good and consider myself among them.

also- i don't worship one white man -
this sorta applys to governments too, i think. so yes, i didn't take much stock in marriages for all those reasons. but maybe we should have made those promises distictly outloud and written to eachother.

mama

I must admit that I have not taken a look at your issues because you have this jumbled up mess of typing without clear paragraphs and your thoughts are very hard to read.

See how I left a clear space between paragraphs. Besides, paragraphs allow us to better organize our thoughts. Maybe one thought to a paragraph. For example, look at this you said:


I have no idea what "i am willing to work on it in any way necessary" means, no idea. What is "it?" So, take a deep breath, tell us one thing at a time, organize your thoughts and I think you will get many more replies.

And you say:


Couple of people gave you the kick in the pants you asked for and you did not react very well. If you want to argue, go find some place else where people argue. This is not the place. We discuss here, and arguing is not a good thing.

Let me ask you a question. First of all, you are an independent person. You are not married, but you are in a common law marriage depending on where you live. I guess you could say you are a "Free spirit," not really comfortable with a white man for a God (not sure God has a color), making a mockery out of public institutions and all that. And now you say the joke is on you.

Yes it is. And my question to you is simple. How is all this rebellion working for you? You obviously like to read and learn for yourself and form your own conclusions. How is that working for you? Could it be that public institutions usually benefit the public, which includes you? Well maybe not in some countries, but certainly here in the States, without getting into partisan politics.

So here you are with three kids, a "boyfriend" who is very immature, an uncertain future with all these relationship problems with this guy, and there you are. Stuck. This is called consequences for believing that society had all these standards you thought were stupid and did not apply to you.

And now take a look at your boyfriend or common law husband, the independent programmer. He gets on Adderol, which is a prescription for ADHD. Any Doctor can tell IMMEDIATELY if the Adderol is effective for controlling the ADHD or if the patient has not been diagnosed correctly and the prescription canceled. And you say he was on it for THREE years? And he acted crazy when he was taking the drug?

Adderol is not an adultery drug. It will not cause someone to commit adultery, two PAs and two EAs. Not in a million years and it will not cause someone to be abusive. This guy is abusive by any definition. Just look at all the things you said about him. He needs to have someone give him a "Wake up call." He is a total jerk. And you have been with him for eleven years.

Uh, why? Don't answer that. I know why from when I worked with abuse shelters. And the why is not pretty.

You come here to vent. That is obvious from your jumbled up mess of a first post. You are all over the map and don't know what to do or what to say, other than lots of complaints and excuses and so on. When you vent, it provides temporary good feeling and solves nothing. Same thing as dealing with your husband. You yell and threaten and nothing changes.

And nothing is going to change until you have a plan. You want a plan? Talk all you want, but until you ask for a plan, I will not tell you.

Larry

i prefer to continue to think for myself even if it would be easier to just blindly follow public institutions. i don't like to follow rules without reasons. now i think there may be some reasons behind getting married. public announcement? well i don't really have that many people to announce to. but for us, maybe we needed to do it just for us. i bet you guys can give me some good reasons to get married.

adderol can cause abuse. it's documented. i am glad it(the meds) are gone. i thought he was off of it(the meds) but continued the prescription secretly. now they are gone- things are better. of course, i don't blame the affairs on the prescription speed, but they were involved. i don't trust all doctors either, by the way.

i want help. i am sorry my views cause a divide here. i do not want to drive you off. i just want o build up my very important REALationshop. communication seems to be our biggest problem. he uses angry outbursts to avoid unpleasant topics. how do i encourage him to be honest ?

I get your goal in your spelling of REALationship. No one is arguing that you have a relationship that is real. But you are not MARRIED.

It is so good to have someone really understand
how it is for us that don't have that paper...

It is the same for us as if we did...

When you have been together for a long time
like we have 11 years...
you don't even think about it

Your feelings and attachment are NO less just because you don't have a paper to say you are married...

Oldhat
again Thank You for understanding
helps to make me not feel so out of place here : )

ummmmmmmmmmmm, if marriage is "just a worthless piece of paper" then why are you folks jumping through hoops to compare your situations to that "worthless" institution?

That makes no sense to demand your relationship is the equivalent of something you just deemed meaningless....

I am in NO way saying it is an worthless institution.

I am saying there are good reasons sometimes some people can't get married...

I was married for over 25 years

What I am trying to say here
just because we my not be married does not mean our relationship is any less....
Then if we did...

You are co-habitating. Your relationship is not on the same level as marriage. You have chosen finances over marriage. I am sure that you are dedicated to your partner. But you are not married. He has not betrayed your marriage. He has not betrayed a sacred commitment and oath that the two of you made together before God as you know Him. You did not become One. You moved in together. Believe me, there is a difference.

Saying that marriage is just a piece of paper is an obvious attempt to invalidate its worth and a reflects a lack of understanding of what marriage means.

And no, your relationship is not LESS, it is different. Living together is not the same as being married so it makes no sense to try to apply principles that are intended for marriages to something that is not.

Maybe you know something Dr Harley does not, but he has stated on numerous occasions that marriage is very different from living together and he does not treat the two the same.

we felt you were attempting to invalidate and devalue OUR long-term commitments. i feel it does make sense to try to apply marriage building techniques in any serious relationship you plan on being in on for the long hau;. please do not undermine people efforts.

Dr. harley talks about how most relationships progress from the renter stage into the buyer stage. maybe some people are just a little hesitant - maybe they could be convinced if you tried in a respectful patient way that didn't make them feel ashamed.

thank-you for posting to the unmarrieds. i respect and honor your attempt to homor and be faithful to the person you love. i hope you are able to grow in your relationships and encourage you to share this information with the people you love so you can both come to decisions that you can agree on and be happy with. i think the way to that is thru the policy of radical honesty and the policy of joint agreement along with the elimination of lovebusters and the agreement to meet eachother's needs. this involves alot of communication with eachother and is a lot of work but can give you joy. all of these things i have learned on this site and i have finally gotten my significant other on board! i hope you all can too!