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Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
Nano,

I have read that article and my answers placed me solidly in the Buyer category. I believe in marriage and I believe in fidelity.

I understand what you are saying about my trolling & dipping. Let me say this: I reported that Immediately after the bookstore I felt full of myself. "Sweet Revenge?" Probably. But you know what I discovered after thinking about it after the IC session and talking it out on MB101? I absolutely did not like the fit of the infidelity suit. It isn't for me, Nano. And it isn't related to him. It's about me. No matter what relationship I am in - I (Chris) am not a cheater or a wayward.

I did not file for divorce. I did implement MB weeks ago and I have experienced real and positive changes to my marriage in that short time. It was truly amazing. I very much believed in MB - which is why I learned as much as I could and put it to work. I believed in it when I first read it because it made so much sense, but now I also believe it because of the real changes I have seen in my marriage.

That bookstore thing happened for me after I discovered that text message exchange and marinated in it.


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That's a problem only you can solve through ruthless self-examination and determination to become a healthier person emotionally no matter what your H does.
That's why I am in IC. I have suffered massive amounts of emotional damage due to abuse in my marriage. That is very true. I am struggling to find myself again and to grow....but mostly to be honest with my feelings (even the "not so nice" ones) which I was used to mercilessly suppressing to avoid My H's anger and his AOs. It started to seep into other interactions. I found myself pretending that I wasn't angry, shocked, disgusted, impatient and pretending I was happy and gleeful so people wouldn't get angry with me for being angry. That was my choice. I should have placed boundaries for myself with his AOs and anger as well as other people's. I didn't, and I am working on getting to the point of doing that now.

What is it that you are telling me to do when you say "take responsibility"? Are you saying I should tell my Husband about the bookstore incident at this point.

I am not opposed to coming clean - I just want to do it at the right time. Is that OK? How does that work with my plan for snooping? Is my plan for snoping still valid?

I simply don't want to compound one act of stupidity / one mistake with even more stupidity and mistakes.

Chris, hang in there. You will "get" it. MB is a huge paradigm shift for most of us.

When I posted, do the right thing, I meant just that--do the right thing! You knew it was WRONG to pretend to be an unattached woman and troll for a strange man's sexual attention. But you did it anyway. You don't need an IC to tell you it was wrong, you already knew it. You just want the IC to come up with a justification for doing what you WANTED to do. Remember that the IC, as lovely a person as I'm sure they are, has a profit motive--they can't take a chance on alienating you with the "unadulterated" truth, the way that we can.

Stop blaming your husband's abuse/anger, etc for your bad behavior. No one made you stay with him. You chose to stay with him. You did not set boundaries when he threatened you, physically and emotionally. You behaving dishonestly does not cancel out his behaving boorishly. To the contrary--you are both amping each other up and destroying your marriage.

I believe that the fact he has been violent before is an issue and you may want to be in a safe place when you tell him. Posters more familiar with DV will hopefully weigh in on the best way to handle that situation.

I believe you when you say you don't see the dishonesty in your behavior--you were really blindsided when we took you to task for your fishing expedition. When you begin to look more closely, you will see what we see and hopefully begin to change it--because I do believe you want a better life!



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Nano,

First, My IC was very blunt with what she first said about the bookstore thing. She was neither kind nor cute about it. She reacted much the same way the folks here did. Part of her job is to help me find my "answers" and I shared that part of what she said. My big Q was WHY? Why on earth did I do such a thing? Not that the answer to that would lessen the fact that what I did was wrong, but if I never find out why I did it I may not be able to address it and correct my thinking...If I am not careful, it could be repeated again.

I have moved way past blaming my H for his behavior. An MB member named Loving Anyway helped me with that early on. I know that my choices are mine and mine alone. I chose to be with him, I chose to stay, I chose to walk into that bookstore.

At this point I do not believe that violence will occur. Since you probably haven't read my story @ MB101 you may not know why - but I'll say here that my H will not be violent with me anymore. I have handled that situation & the penalty is too high for him. He will try AO though.

I am getting that a few people think I need to confess to him about the bookstore. Are you thinking that too Nano? The question for me is when is the right time to do that?

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I am getting that a few people think I need to confess to him about the bookstore. Are you thinking that too Nano? The question for me is when is the right time to do that?

NOW.

Quotes from Dr. Harley's book "Love Busters," pages 120-121:

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No area of your life should be kept secret.
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Honesty does not drive a spouse away -- dishonesty does. People in general, and women in particular, want to know exactly what their spouses are thinking and feeling. When you hold something back, your spouse tries to guess what it is. If he or she is right, then you must continually lie to cover your tracks. If wrong, your spouse develops an incorrect understanding of you and your predispositions.

Maybe you don't really want to be known for who you are. That's the saddest position of all to be in. You'd rather keep your secret than experience one of life's greatest joys -- to be loved and accepted in spite of known weaknesses.
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In many cases the spouse reacts more negatively to the long-term deception than to the concealed event. The thoughtless act might be easily accepted and forgiven, but the cover-up is often harder to accept.

Last edited by Prisca; 04/01/10 01:59 PM.

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What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by Scotland
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My question is why doesn't O & H apply to our snooping activities? (I'm sure this question has been asked before. If so, pls link me to the thread with the answer.)

It has been asked and there are links on here from what Dr H has answered similar questions. I am going to do some digging and find what I can. Please be patient.

Radical honesty DOES NOT apply to snooping. If you investigate a spouse and find them innocent, you might mention it to them, but RH should not be used to undermine your ability to snoop. In your case, Chris, you have already found something incriminating so he should never be told about it. INDEFINITELY.


Originally Posted by Dr Harley
There are two situations where I don't recommend radical honesty or the POJA: Abuse and infidelity. In the case of infidelity, if one spouse suspects the other, I have gone so far as to encourage hiring a private detective to help investigate, using spyware, keyloggers, putting a gps on the car, and all sorts of other snooping methods. If its found that the spouse is not guilty, I encourage revealing the snooping to the spouse. If found guilty, I encourage keeping spying techniques secret indefinitely. Your conclusions are correct.


Also, I DO NOT believe you should tell your H what you did in the bookstore at this time. Save that for when your marriage gets into recovery. RH is for RECOVERY. Nor do you need to ask a "counselor" why you did it. You know why you did it. I don't think you are a "wayward" but think you were acting like a dumbas*. [something in which I have great experience! grin]

Did you get that keylogger installed?

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{[CHRIS}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Personally...

I DO NOT think your husband is having an affair. I'd bet $20 on it. I could be wrong and certainly think you should continue snooping but I doubt you'll find anything doing so. IF he had committed adultery it is in the past now so no amount of snooping is going to reveal anything. Hopefully guilt and a solid recovery push will get any truth out him as it's likely the only way you'll find out. The guy was deployed a time or two so his secrets are likely quite safe so he'll be a tough nut to break (but secrecy will destroy your recovery efforts from the inside).

I don't make such prediction lightly. I am almost always on the side seeing red flags and guessing there IS an affair. My reasoning in this case is based upon things I mentioned before regarding the texts but also:

1. He stated he thought a divorce was the way to go because he's sick of trying and sees no hope for restoration of a loving marital relationship; however, he was willing to wait TWO YEARS to see the divorce process through due to financial stuff and to make sure Chrisnova was on her feet (literally). Waywards don't WAIT...they want out so they can be with their soulmate AND legitimize their adultery before being discovered. This is true even if he's not having a typical "soulmate" affair. If he's merely banging some girl but not emotionally attached, he'd still want out immediately before he got caught and so he could REALLY undertake acting like a single guy.

2. I've seen no indication her husband is acting like a love-sick teenager. No mid-life crisis behaviors typically of someone who is thinking they are cool, hip and young which typifies a wayward.

3. You didn't show up here with suspicion as most others do. You didn't google "infidelity" even subconsciously to find MB and only just now showed up on the infidelity section. I usually believe people don't show up on SAA by accident and thus, whether they know it or not...their spouse is having an affair. You showed up here as an after-thought to ONE suspicious email. Not enough for me to get on board the affair train....YET.
As far as telling your husband about the coffee shop.

I don't think you should tell her husband about the coffeeshop YET. I certainly think/hope a day will come where you'll share such details of you life with him in an open and honest way. "Hell no" is not a proper way to approach "open and honesty" but the timing of telling him needs to be appropriate for a recovery. I kinda see it like situations where a couple is recovering but the BS keeps the snooping a secret for awhile (like I didn't tell Mrs. W certain things her mom and I did for well over a year of recovery). It's just going to make him really mad. He won't approach it with understanding at all because he and Chrisnova are still in a marital blame war. It will just become ammo for him to blameshift everything onto Chris for the downfall of their marriage and an excuse not to "try" (which she has been working with Steve Harley attempting to get him on-board with).

I think the passage of time has a way of mellowing things out. If he found out today what she did just last week it will make him angrier than if she waits and tells him later about what she did 6 months ago (presuming he's on board then working on the marriage too). There will hopefully come a time, as there is in all recoveries where each side is willing to open up honestly about their shortcomings and actions which contributed to the downfall of the marriage. THAT is the appropriate time to open up about such incident at the peace negotiations where she and her husband are wiping the slate clean and rebuilding.

Last thing...I am in no way saying what she did was right. It WAS dangerous behavior....as dangerous as her husband flirting with the coworker by text. Plently of non-mb marriages have this type of behavior all over them. Heck...I didn't even wear a wedding ring the first 8 years of my marriage (it was too annoying but after infidelity I found the desire and a comfortable one that I like to wear). It was stupid risky behavior but, imo, not abnormal at all for any seemingly betrayed spouse on the edge of divorce.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- this is where MB is great at keeping YOU accountable as you are the only one here.

p.p.s. - getting him on board with MB? Read the book "Wild at Heart". You'll end up trying to appeal to his manly desire to achieve and be a success. He CAN be succesful at marriage. It's one thing easily within his control as his wife is ready, willing and implementing changes. All he needs to do is "try". Men aren't quitters (not calling women names by implication this is based on the fact woman file for divorce twice as often as men)


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
I am getting that a few people think I need to confess to him about the bookstore. Are you thinking that too Nano? The question for me is when is the right time to do that?

I'm in agreement with Mel that you should wait until you are in recovery. I am not so sanguine as you that you have any control over his violence. Why take a chance?

If I could give you any advice at this point, it would be not to be so quick to "answer" every point a poster brings up with counterpoint. It's like walking in quicksand to advise someone who already has the answer to everything. Why ask us if you are always going to argue about the answer? grin

I don't care why you were hootching about the bookstore--I advise you not to do it.

I don't care if you think you have your husband muzzled--I advise you to be mindful of his propensity for physical violence.

Sometimes it's a good idea to just be still and mull things over.












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Thank you Mr W.

I agree on all points.

Mark (Who is w.a.a.a.a.y.y.y.y... too busy to think before posting and so shouldn't be posting at all)

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Originally Posted by Nanowritersix
Stop blaming your husband's abuse/anger, etc for your bad behavior. No one made you stay with him.

The biggest help in the world to me was to come to believe this: if I were my wife, with her genetics, her upbringing, her life experiences, I would have reacted the same way to me as she did. I quit disrespectfully judging her for her love busters. Yes, those love busters still made painful withdrawals from my love bank. But I quit judging her for them. I quit saying to myself (and sometimes to her) "I would never do that."

That made all the difference in the world in my attitude. It turned scores of my love busters into better behavior. Disrespectful judgments became empathetic understanding. Selfish demands (which I thought were not selfish since I was demanding "for the marriage" and therefore "for my wife" not "for me" (alone)) became thoughtful requests. Lessening the DJs and SDs lessened the AOs, though there was, and is, still further to go on that count.

Chris, your husband has reasons for his behavior. He may be interpreting those reasons differently than you. He may be handling things in pretty terrible ways. But he simply doesn't know any better way at this time. If you let yourself marinate in judgment over him, not only are you engaging in a love buster yourself, but every love buster he commits against you will hurt ten times as much and deplete your love bank ten times as badly. That's a hell of a bad way to go into a Plan A, if necessary.

And if you don't filter closely what people say to you here, there are plenty of people here who encourage resentment and judgment and can gladly help you make the problem worse.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Thought just popped in my head...may be better for your other thread but oh well...

Your husband is/was a military guy...20 years as I recall.

I am not military and don't have any close friends that were/are so I'm just shooting from the hip here but...

Would a military type guy be MOST comfortable in a state of conflict? He is trained for it after all. Conflict is his workplace and WINNING is always the goal. Withdrawal and intimacy are both UNCOMFORTABLE places for him. He hates withdrawal and is considering a divorce but fixing it and achieving intimacy, to him, seems impossible and scary too. He probably doesn't think HE can do it.

As far as talking him into an MB weekend...expanding upon this...what if you referred to it as boot camp for marriages? Boot camp training brainwashes the "individual" right out of ya and incorporates obediance and unity/cohesion amoungst the "unit". You two NEED such cohesion. No more battles except ones you both undertake as part of the same "unit" against an outside force. Such "outside force" is trying to destroy your marriage. Make you and him doubt it's fixable. You can team up with him to FIGHT against the notion that you two won't work. You attempt to engage him as your leader in this battle and any good leader seeks out a WINNING BATTLE PLAN.

Just rambling thoughts...

W

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Mel,
Thanks for not giving up on me. I will save the info re/ the Bookstore Incident for the appropriate time in Recovery. I have not done the keylogger yet. I will be doing some research on it and then I will installing it asap. My hesitation / fear is that I do not seem to be good snooper. I want to be smart about this and I will get this done asap.

Mr W & Markos,
I appreciate those responses. Thanks for taking the time to think about my situation and provide your insights. Markos, thanks for sharing your thought process about how to stop DJing and SDing + how to view AOs. "intellectually" I know that empathy & trying to see things through your spouse's eyes goes a long way towards eliminating those LBs. smile But gosh - it was very helpful to see it spelled out like that. Mr. W I have ordered that book.

Nano,
Thank you. I do keep his propensity for violence in mind and I was thinking that maybe that's part of my "resentment & fear leads to lack of emotional honesty" problem. IDK...Living in fear of my H is no way to live; however, I get your point about not being foolish. I am sorry that I come off like a "point-counterpoint" person to you. Please consider that I want to really learn this stuff... so I tend to probe and ask lots of questions. Any doubt I have which crops up, I want to know the answer right away. I am very eager and glad to be here. The info here is awesome and incredible and I feel like there is so much to learn.

Everyone,
I really appreciate you all & the support I get here. Please know that I will not be hootching around in the future. I realize that my behvior in that regard must have offended many people here who are betrayed spouses. I know that what I did was 100% wrong, unjustified, dangerous, and stupid.

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Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
Everyone,
I really appreciate you all & the support I get here. Please know that I will not be hootching around in the future. I realize that my behvior in that regard must have offended many people here who are betrayed spouses. I know that what I did was 100% wrong, unjustified, dangerous, and stupid.

Well, okay. Now stop being so darned human! smile


D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Originally Posted by MrWondering
Thought just popped in my head...may be better for your other thread but oh well...

Your husband is/was a military guy...20 years as I recall.

I am not military and don't have any close friends that were/are so I'm just shooting from the hip here but...

Would a military type guy be MOST comfortable in a state of conflict? He is trained for it after all. Conflict is his workplace and WINNING is always the goal. Withdrawal and intimacy are both UNCOMFORTABLE places for him. He hates withdrawal and is considering a divorce but fixing it and achieving intimacy, to him, seems impossible and scary too. He probably doesn't think HE can do it.

As far as talking him into an MB weekend...expanding upon this...what if you referred to it as boot camp for marriages? Boot camp training brainwashes the "individual" right out of ya and incorporates obediance and unity/cohesion amoungst the "unit". You two NEED such cohesion. No more battles except ones you both undertake as part of the same "unit" against an outside force. Such "outside force" is trying to destroy your marriage. Make you and him doubt it's fixable. You can team up with him to FIGHT against the notion that you two won't work. You attempt to engage him as your leader in this battle and any good leader seeks out a WINNING BATTLE PLAN.

Just rambling thoughts...

W

This sounds dead on Mr W.!

Marriage Bootcamp would probably appeal to his military side.

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BTW-I just got His Needs Her Needs & The Dance of Anger in the mail today. I'll be finishing Love Busters this evening & then get started on the other books asap.


Thanks so much!

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Originally Posted by MrWondering
(which she has been working with Steve Harley attempting to get him on-board with).

Chris,

Since you are working with Steve, you should tell him about the "Incidentgate" and have him guide you on what would be the BEST approach should be. That would be my best advice....Let the professional guide you....


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p.s.- this is where MB is great at keeping YOU accountable as you are the only one here.

ABSOLUTELY, which is one of the reasons I brought up the bookstore incident....BTW, while I do not believe that you are wayward, it is this behavior that gets there. I also know that your being in a vunerable place in your marriage also puts you at a greater risk.....Lastly, having an affair is NOT a path I would want you to take. The damage done to the wayward is SIGNIFICANT and painful.....not something I wish for you...

(((((Chris)))))))

Does your head hurt??? Or is it spinning yet???.... crazy

Yeah, we can be a bit brutal over hear on SaA...... grin

but only on those we care about.....

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You guys are EEeevil brutal.

I had to wrap my head in ice.

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Originally Posted by ChrisInNOVA
You guys are EEeevil brutal.

Only those from Texas....... :twoxfour

(they carry guns ya' know!!!!!!!....scary stuff.....
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I had to wrap my head in ice.
kiss

I'll send ya some cookies......




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Only those from Texas.......


Hey now!!! Us Texans just say what we mean and mean what we say.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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I looked for the thread I was thinking about to no avail. I had to take breaks to take car of the kiddos. Then I come on here and see that Fred posted a good one and Batgirl(aka MelodyLane) came to the rescue. Thanx.




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[Linked Image from cool-smileys.com]

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Oh my goodness...not that cookie thing again. I need to stop laughing.



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