Hey I gave you a cheery positive message that did not involve divorce. I am sure you have read it. (If you do not check in you can read everything)

Write a list here of EXACTLY what you want from your H regarding this situation.

Regarding the job sitch or regarding making amends for his AO?

Job:

I want him to immediately find and take at least one part time job. I don't care if he's only making a small hourly wage. He can do that until if/when he finds something more lucrative.

AO:

Still waiting for an apology.

OH:

I wish I could spend some time talking this over with you...but my time is short now, and I wanted to let you know that I was thinking about your sitch.

LG

Both...all of it - everything you want.




Have you stated this in the form of a Thoughtful Request?

If so, what was his reaction?


OH, Since I have started to learn and do MB, I have found that focusing on unreceived apologies (or waiting for apologies) does not serve the overarching goal of improving my marriage. It keeps my energy on the past / past hurts and decreses the net energy I have available for making improvements and moving forward. I am no expert and not even considered a respected MB vet; however, I challenge this portion of your list and I ask you to consider the more practical goal of getting the AOs in your marriage to decrease & to eventually cease. I sincerely believe there is a way to do that, and I shared my action plan for AOs in my thread. Please take a look at it and tell me if you think you could try it too.

Just getting caught up here, OH. Sorry for your sitch! The economy has definitely thrown even healthy marriages into the toilet, so ones that are already hurting really struggle if one partner refuses to get up and do his fair share.

I had some thoughts I wanted to share regarding apologies: Sometimes we as women feel that an apology goes a long way towards building the road to forgiveness, and it seems like men (in general) have a hard time admitting they did something wrong and stating they are sorry it happened.

In the midst of a bad marital situation, a man will not apologize - or if he does, it usually isn't accompanied by any real effort to cease the behavior and do the right thing at the next opportunity. So, my thinking is that once our marriages are improved to a certain point, we will feel comfortable saying


and the male may say I'm sorry or something like I did not mean for that to happen.

I'll share a personal experience I had this morning: Our child woke up with his eyes glued shut (It's allergy time!). My H helped him with warm water, etc. My H then came into the bathrooom and announced HIS plans if our child continued to have trouble with his eyes:


Immediately I began to bristle...After all - We both work, and we are both responsible for our child...so I said


I didn't really listen to his answer because I was steamed. A few minutes later, when I calmed down I went to my H and said


Him


Me


My H did not apologize and he seemed uncomfortable. All he could manage was a weak "OK."


Later, we were on the phone talking about other things. AT an appropriate moment, I asked him if he understood where I was coming from earlier. He said he did. I told him that I was aksing because he didn't say very much at the end of the convo. You know what he said at that point?




I said "We'll get better at doing this." and he agreed.

Chris:

Do you see the problem in YOUR conversation?

Your husband was taking responsibility for your son.

He stated that if his allergies were to serious he wasn't going to school. And of course, AS MOM, you knew this was going to impact you...

So you asked what HE was going to do, and responded thusly:




What DID HE have to apologize for?

You didn't listen to him. He could be completly out in left field, but you didn't even LISTEN.

Had you listened, you both might have come to a proper course of action for what to do... Which is where it went any way.

But it all comes down to your husband having to address something exactly like you would like.

That is impossible.

Been There, Done That. Have the bloody T-shirt.

Whatever our contributions as Fathers, many times it is overly minimized because it is NOT MOMS WAY.

The conversation patterns of men and women are different. Women seek collaboration... "can you help me with this" and Men seek to solve the problem... "Keep him home from school"

Chris, can you see this?

You stated it so plainly in your post.

Apologize to your husband....

Sorry for the T/J, OH.

OH: Your problem with this past weekend with your H is a little deeper. Ok, alot deeper.

He needs to show YOU some concern for all the burdens that you are carrying...

You two have almost perfect role reversal in a marriage, where he is the household person, and you are the wage earner. Yet, he refuses to truly be the household person.

So, you carry the burden of funding the family lifestyle, and he appears to lift not a finger to help. When your job is threatened, than instead of sympathy, he reacts with anger becasue he should get a JOB.

He can't even get the frickin athletics billing worked out....

You want a partner, not another boulder.

Three months ago you moved to the couch. YOu have seemed to back off of many of those things.

Things are sliding back to what they were before.

This is toxic to you. And terriffic for your H.

Stop.

Work from the boundaries that you want to enforce.

LG

I agree with the recommendation to look forward rather than waiting for an aology, but I can understand feeling the need for an apology in order to "move on." I see that you shared with him what you wanted re. item #1; have you shared with him that you'd feel a lot better if he apologized? Maybe do it in the form of drive-by O&H, so he isn't pressured to say a quick "sorry" right then? (Which could lead to if-I-had-to-ask-for-it-then-you-didn't-really-mean-it syndrome. But if you do it via drive-by, then if he says sorry, it took a definite act of his will.)

Here's a site I found about how different ppl want different kinds of apology:

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/learn-the-languages/the-five-languages-of-apology/

This is from the Five Love Languages site.

For instance, I would like to know the person truly regrets what happened, and either wants to undo what was done or make sure it doesn't happen again.

Do you want him to "say" that he is sorry?

Or do you want him to change his actions?

I really don't care if my husband or my kids or anyone else is "sorry" for having done something wrong. Certainly I'd like for them to admit that they are wrong. But mostly I want to know that they have learned and are changing their behavior.

If someone simply says they are sorry and offers no changes in behavior, that apology is a lie. So if my husband can't apologize to me without it being a lie, I really don't want it.

*edit*

Thanks for the feedback, LG. As always, very helpful.

And confusing!

I'm trying to figure out that last statement. Work from the boundaries I want to enforce.

Well my boundaries include basic respect for me, my efforts in this marriage and this life, no angry outbursts, respect for our kids and their possibly differing opinions, etc.

I'm having trouble figuring out how to work from that without getting completely angry in return. Ok, I'm entitled to my feelings of anger. I meant by not ACTING completely angry in return. That's the hard one for me.

He wants support and respect. At the moment, I'm not able to give that to him in the amount he wants or the way he wants. I'm too mired in my own shyte right now. Fair? No. But reality. I told him that this AM.

LG,

Yes, I saw all the problems with the initial part of our conversation.

For me, the problem began with the feeling of being excluded from a decision involving our child. I initially responded by silently fuming. Then out came a sarcastic remark. When I was calm enough to realize and admit my error, I did a course correction and attempted to respectfully share my feelings with my H. I don't know anything about you and I am going to assume that you are trying to help, but I don't know whether apologizing for silently fuming or apologizing for the sarcastic remark would have been productive and I certainly wasn't seeking an apology from my H although he provided one. I think I handled it very well, and I consider the exchange a win-win for both of us because of the way it ended - especially the part about "getting better at doing this." Sure, conversations may begin badly and we (I) may make mistakes; however, there is no shame in course corrections and I am proud that I was able to do it with what I have learned here.

As far as OH's problems being "a lot deeper" ...I am quite sure you have not read my story and are not aware of my marriage problems. (The problems with my marriage are fairly similar to OH's as far as the anger & AOs. My story also includes domestic violence and other things.) Anyway - As far as each of us are concerned our problems are the biggest in the world, so I do not appreciate the comparison.




I think it's very possible....

I would like both of us to be skilled at addressing things with POJA type of behavior. I believe 100% that this is possible, we just need to make our way there. At this point my H doesn't know what POJAing is, so the best I could do was give an example.


Baby steps...

I agree.

I'd like to see where this advice goes too.

I think you find it helpful because it criticizes your H and confirms how he is the bad guy, there was no substantive action based advice here.

I re-read what you wrote LG - I have confirmed that you have no idea about my sitch and applied your own issues to my conversation. You saw it as taking responsibility for our child, but one of his LBs is IB.

What he did there was 100% IB...one of many. There are more examples.


We don't have this problem although you may have experienced it in your marriage. Our domestic duties and child rearing split doesn't adhere to gender norms, and I had no problems with "dad's way" ...but I learned that MB says it needs to be "our way" so I am aiming for that.

Thanks for trying to help anyway.

I am eager to see what additional advice you provide to OH.

Boundaries are NOT about his actions. They are about yours.

�Basic respect for me and my efforts in this marriage� That is requiring a specific action FROM HIM. It is not a boundary, it is a demand. A boundary would be SELF-RESPECT, and enforcing it would be an action on your part, like removing yourself from as situation in which you are being disrespected. See the difference?

�No Angry Outbursts� is also a demand, not a boundary. A boundary is �I will not subject myself to Angry Outbursts,� and then following up with YOUR response to an AO.

With regard to your kids, you can�t force him to respect them or their differing opinions. I can�t remember their ages, but they need to learn to enforce their own boundaries, and the best way for them to do that is to watch you do it, and to have your support when they practice it themselves. And for you to enforce your boundaries in your relationships with them. And also stepping in and enforcing boundaries for them, as long as it is done in a way that is not disrespectful to your husband or his relationship with the kids. (When my husband is talking to the kids in a way I dislike, I don�t call him out in front of them. I ask him to come in another room and then address it. So does he.)

Anger is not a boundary. It is a sign that a boundary has been crossed. It is our alarm system that tells us to take action and enforce our boundary. But we don�t act from anger. We act from love, for ourselves. We act from respect, for ourselves, and also for the person who violated the boundary. Especially for the person who violated the boundary. Because I can�t respect myself if I am being disrespectful of someone else.

Enforcing boundaries is NOT the same thing as retaliation and justification.


Not reality. Choice. Respect isn�t measured by degrees or amounts. It�s either yes or no. Either you do or you don�t. And it�s not really about �ways� as in �the way he wants.� Respect stands on its own. There are many �ways� to show love. But I believe that respect is either there or it�s not. Respect isn�t about how HE experiences it. It�s about YOUR actions and motivations.

Sometimes walking away is the most respectful thing we can do for a person. And sometimes it�s not.

Thinking's comment loops back into an action plan for addressing the list you made OH. (The list you made of what you want from your H.)

You want the AOs to stop - yes?

Well, what can I do on my end to create an environment for to that happen? You ask yourself that, brainstorm on it, and then do!

You want your H to get at least PT work until something better comes along - yes?

Well, what can I do on my end to create an environment for that to happen? You ask yourself that, brainstorm on it, and then do!

Chris:

I will keep this simple for you....

I have bben at MB since long before the date I logged on.

I have been to the MB weekend. I have read the books.

I have lived the life.

Sorry.

Nothing in your exchange with your husband was MB. It might have been FAR BETTER than it ever was before in your marriage, but that convo didn't end with your H until he agreed with you.

You should have NEVER left the bathroom in that an upset manner, if you were actually really practising MB. Sorry. I don't see it. Are you getting better? Certainly, I'm sure. And maybe there was more to it than your posted.

In this one post, you simply stated that when your H started talking, you decided not to listen... And there was NO REASON why you couldn't have.

You just didn't like his first line, and EVERYTHING after that was his fault.

That is my point of this. Sure later, everything was fine. You got him to agree with you.

Did I interject something about my sitch? Sure. We all bring our own sitch to this table.

But here? YOU DECIDED to stop listening. That's not MB. In a sitch that didn't require you to shut down.

So, why did you? Maybe that is a better question for you.

And I have been following OH's sitch since she got here. So, I know what going on with her. I have even read yours. I don't see any reason to post to you yet. Maybe I can help you understand your WH a little better.

LG

FWIW...

I've always found it insightful to hear the viewpoints of LG and other fine men here. Off-hand, I can't really think of a time when I've *disagreed* with him. I find I get the most benefit from posts when I read them without reacting defensively. Even if I disagree, it's useful to try to figure out *why* I disagree, and if there's any part that maybe I agree with...

.. and also to remember that, often, the thing you react most negatively and defensively toward is the thing you need to hear the most.

It bothered me that you said you asked a question and then didn't bother listening to the answer.

In all honesty, though, if my H had said that I would've assumed he was expecting me to stay home and wasn't asking my input, and I would've been bothered by that. Doesn't mean that's the best response, just being honest that I, too, am imperfect.

My H's idea of "deciding things together" is for him (or me) to formulate a plan completely, and then inform the other person. :rolleyes: At least that's how he started. He has since learned how much I appreciate him phrasing his statements in a form that is more inviting of input from me.

but he didn't get there overnight.

I think LG has some good advice. At least from me, LG, thanks!