Absolutely. That would be a knock out factor in choosing an employee or a potential spouse. Imagine interviewing a job candidate after their past and they respond "how honest do I have to be?" Or if a suitor answers the same way? I would be done with that person because honest people do not answer like that. Honest people want others to know the truth about them because they know it reflects well. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

As much as is necessary to convey the truth to the reciever's satisfaction. This is not a GENDER issue, Larry; this is an honesty issue. Honesty applies to both women and men.

I get that. I understand that, always have.

How much detail? For example, "Why when I used to make love with XXX, I used to blah, blah, blah..." I don't want to hear that. All I care about is the big picture. Is this person a liar or a cheat? How much detail does it take for me to understand the character of the person.

Larry

Why are you asking me that? I can answer for no one other than myself. That answer will obviously differ from person to person.

I will tell you this, though, if a person acts like a hostile defense witness when questions are asked, that would be enough to convince me they were not honest. If a person was forthcoming and demonstrated WILLINGNESS to be honest, that would demonstrate honesty.

Larry,

It is the QUESTIONING that has the hairs on the back of my neck standing up ~ I GET that all of us can forget minutia...

Let me assure you that [unfortunately] Mr. W and I both were NO ANGELS sexually speaking prior to meeting each other...He was a FRAT BOY for crying out loud - and I was a little sister for a fraternity ~ we get it...

It is not like we sat down and did a play by play of each and every encounter with our respective past partners, but we have been VERY OPEN about all of it ~ perhaps more so than others would be comfortable with, but it suits us...

HOWEVER...Imagine that either one of us had said to the other - "Hmmm, exactly how much do you need/want to know about my sexual past?"

WHOA!!!! HOLD UP!!!!!

The very fact that the question was even asked would have been enough for either of us to say, "NO THANK YOU!!!" to the other...

Asking HOW MUCH HONESTY is a GIANT CLUE that the person ASKING is DISHONEST!!!

Mrs. W

MrsW

HOLD IT.


THAT is my point.

Thank you for making it simple. I like simple after I understand something well enough for it to be boiled down and still be understandable.

Larry

Larry, I hope you are not twisting that to say one should only say what is "comfortable," because that is not at all what is being said here. I was definitely NOT "comfortable" telling my husband about my alcoholism and some of my dastardly deeds, but I owed him the truth. And I answered all of his questions to his satisfaction, making sure he understood fully who I was.

So, be assured the point here is NOT personal "comfort" but complete and total historical honesty so the potential spouse has an HONEST AND COMPLETE picture of who they are marrying. The need for honesty supercedes your "comfort."

Larry,

I'm sorry, but how is it not blatantly obvious that what your spouse agrees is acceptable, is in fact, acceptable?

I do not understand all the gymnastics of this...

No one has explained this so far because, quite frankly, it's self explanatory - imo, anyway...

Not to mention the wild goose chase method used about this being a gender issue...

Rest assured that I was NOT talking about our comfort regarding honesty - just that Mr. W and I are incredibly candid - Pep explained above that her husband didn't want details - Mr. W and I are NOT uncomfortable sharing any and all details with each other...

Brass tacks honesty from me to you: I don't believe this is what you were "misunderstanding" - To me, your posts on this thread signify that you have a problem with honesty - and that would make you a RISK as a marriage partner in my book...To be blunt, I think you are just "crying uncle" because others are questioning you - and the hot seat has become a little too hot for your tastes...JMHO

Mrs. W

I keep seeing Larry asking about how much "detail"-- not how much "honesty".

Example: He admits to her that he did the deed. How much detail about the deed does she need? (say that fast five times)

The 5th grade answer is: until she's satisfied she has the information she needs.

I hope you are right, PM. And the answer, of course, is she needs as much detail as she needs.

I should think that they are:

1. To respect his wishes and not tell him.

2. To force him to listen, if such a thing is possible.

3. To try and discuss why this honesty is necessary.

I can see that if he does not want to know, then he probably will not want to know why he should know. You might not get very far with 3.

However, I would be inclined to at least try. There are some things that he should know, because they could affect his future.

Abortions and STDs can affect future fertility.

A child given up in secret for adoption, or a sperm donor child, might find you in later years.

An affair with a married man might be discovered by the wife, years later when the couple is married.

If he really would prefer not to know that you were promiscuous for some years, then he takes the risk that some nasty detail will turn up years later - like an expose by a past lover when you appear on American Idol! I suppose that if he states his wish clearly, though, you are justified in keeping quiet.

However, I don't think you should use "I don't want to know" as an excuse for not disclosing a child, a sexual crime, a disease, infidelity or an addiction. And of course, once we allow some things to be seen as important and others not, then we get in muddy waters years later when he says "yes, but I didn't mean THAT! You should have known I would have wanted to know about THAT!"

Okay, if in fact that is the case, no one here can answer that, because no one here is Larry's potential spouse that I know of...

I can tell you this, FOR ME, if Mr. W had asked me "how much detail do you need?" that would have triggered my "WTH Sense"...The ASKING of that, would have lead me to believe his intent was to be dishonest...

Mrs. W

Oh I agree, that question would be a huge red flag to me too but I got the sense that he was just looking for an opinion about this and not advice on how to react in a real life scenario. At least that's the way I read it, maybe I'm reading it wrong. It's happened before.

In Pep's situation -- from my understanding -- she didn't ask how much her husband wanted to know, she just started sharing with him and he cut her off. IMO, you can't force someone to listen. However, I say you can reserve the right to use that in your defense if it comes up later and they declare, "I would have never married you if I'd known that about you!"

ETA: Hm, I just remembered that Larry is single. Larry, ARE you asking for advice if this comes up in your dating life?

MrsW


And brass tacks back to you.

I said I didn't understand Historical Honesty. I didn't know WHY I didn't understand. It took some back and forth and reading to get it; why I didn't understand.

I am not retreating. That is not my nature. Thanks to those who choose to address the issue, the light bulb went off and I grasped why I was having a problem understanding and I said so.

THAT to me is being honest. Admitting that you don't understand is a form of honesty. Asking for help is being honest. That you would go out into the weeds trying for a different take on that is beyond my ability to analyze.

So I am not going to try.

In my opinion, your characterization of me was out of bounds and was not intended to help me understand anything, it was intended to hurt, to manipulate me into believing something about myself that is simply not true. I live by Duty, Honor, Country, period.

And I have no idea why you did it. I am a person who understands his core beliefs and dishonesty is not one of them. I do suggest that you tone it down a bit the next time you get on a soapbox.

Larry

Thank you SugarCane and Pep. You helped turn on the light bulb in my head. I guess it boils down to that you provide as much detail as is comfortable and needed for the person listening. This while being totally honest about your past, such as "While I was in Japan, I consorted with women who I paid for their services." Or some such statement.

And if you want to know how much more detail to give, you ask.

And one more I will add, guys need instruction manuals on things like this. Women make fun of us. Laugh at us is ok, shooting us is not.

Larry

I'm okay with my posting style...Thanks anyway...

Mrs. W

Larry,

Do you understand what Dr Harley means by "historical honesty" now? Do you understand that he means the things he covers in his questionnaire: number of past partners and when; any affairs, homosexual acts, homosexual leanings, sexual convictions, previous marriages, previous cohabitations, children...all the things asked about in the "sex" part of the questionnaire?

Would you offer this honesty to a future spouse? Is there anything you wouldn't offer?

(There are other parts to the questionnaire, covering religion, how you were parented, your education and other things. I am focusing for the moment only on the sexual history.)

Just as long as you do not interpret on the other person's behalf how much is "as much detail as is comfortable and needed for the person listening". That, I think, allows one spouse to claim that the other does not need to know about their exploits with prostitutes, or their waywardness in their first marriage, because "that detail is not needed for the person listening". That is a self-serving rationalisation.

Dr Harley makes it clear that ALL our past sexual experiences contribute towards the person we are today. Your future spouse has a right to know what the events have been and how they have affected you. If you were an OW when single, what have you learned from this? What steps have you taken to make sure that you are never involved in an affair again?

If your future spouse is unwilling to marry someone who was an OW, then you have no right to keep the fact that you were once those things from them. And in case you were thinking of asking, no you cannot keep quiet about a fact if the direct question is never asked!

If we are trying to have MB marriages, then we aim for what Dr Harley says; all the facts of our sexual history. He does not say how much detail is necessary; your future spouse will tell you that. She will ask if she wants to know how many times and in what positions. If she asks, you must answer.

Well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to shoot you if you marry me without telling me you were once a ladyboy!

Uhhh, what's a ladyboy?