For Spring:

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate�someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own�is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better....

...Howard's failure to understand the complex emotional consequences of his affair is typically male, just as Bette's insistence that her affair partner live up to her romantic fantasies is typically female. Any gender-based generalization is both irritating and inaccurate, but some behaviors are typical. Men tend to attach too little significance to affairs, ignoring their horrifying power to disorient and disrupt lives, while women tend to attach too much significance, assuming that the emotions are so powerful they must be "real" and therefore concrete, permanent, and stable enough to risk a life for.

--Dr. Frank Pittman, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy

luri


Yep.

SDCW

Yep.

Does two yeps equal a yap?

Larry

Thank you SDCW and thank you Lost in Space. I really don't need anyone else to tell me what a bad person I am or what a horrible person I am. Believe me, there isn't anything anyone could say about me that I haven't thought about myself. And for those of you who claim that I have ruined my career or am a laughing stock at my job--check this out: I QUIT my job when my H first discovered the A, but the company REFUSED to let me go and actually GAVE ME A PROMOTION! I appreciate the advice that the waywards have given. And I appreciate the harsh words from the betrayeds, but here's the thing, betrayeds, you have only experienced the A from your standpoint. Before I made this mistake, I would have reacted the same way to anyone who told me that they were having an A with a much younger person. The one thing I've learned from all this, and the one thing that has drawn me closer to God, is that WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. Moral, professional, whatever. No one is a bad person, but we all make bad choices. I am fully aware that I made a bad choice, and believe me, I am suffering the consequences. The emotional HE77 that I am going through is far worse than anything else that could possibly happen to me. And I'm okay with that because I did the crime and should do the time. But I came on this board to talk to wayward survivors. Ones who could give me actual advice on how to move forward. How to put this in my past. How to focus on my M and my H and how to stop thinking about the OM. I came here looking for hope that I can do that. The rest of you who seem to only want to continue to shame me, please don't bother. I will live with this scarlet letter for the rest of my life. Before you rip into me again, please keep in mind that I'm looking for advice and I'm open to criticism, but I didn't come here for a public stoning.

One more thing: if I want to experience shame and humiliation, all I have to do is look into the eyes of my H and my children.

SC

Well, see you are correct in what you seek, not necessarily correct with an analysis of the help. As you completely defog, you will find your mind working in new ways. And to help that along, some are going to suggest that you run in a certain way instead of doing stuff in one spot.

Please trust me. You are not completely defogged. Given your motivation and otherwise common sense, you will be. It will take time and introspection. No magic wand (You know that), but time and the acquisition of the emotional tools you need to get yourself straight and that will, eventually, allow you to forgive yourself. Just please, don't buy a word lost says. She is as fogged as it is possible to be. Sorry she even choose to get in your thread, for her own purposes.

Hey, have you finished reading Surviving yet?

Larry

Oh dear God, of course they are! That is the very definition of what they are!

They are that until they stop having the affair!

SugarCane, I hope that helps you feel better to call me a bad person. I'm sure it helped you when you were being betrayed to think of your H as a bad person. But I'm assuming you are still married, and if so, I'm hoping you don't think of your H in that light. Forgive me, but I thought this was a Marriage BUILDERS board. I'm looking for advice on how to build my M, not name calling.

Larry, thank you for your help. I have finished reading Surviving, but I may re-read it. I've also read a couple other books as well, including Private Lies. What I'm particularly interested in learning is how to replace my thoughts of the OM with more productive thoughts about my M. I would love for someone to tell me, "I have been there. I had times when I thought about the OM constantly. I never thought I would get through it. But I did, and i'm a better person for it. I am so thankful that I stayed in my M even when I didn't think there was any hope." I am still in my fog, and I want to get out. I need some ideas on how to get better in touch with reality. I appreciate the input.

Spring & LostinSpace (I agree your screen name is telling cuz you are very fogged-up and "lost" right now),

Here is a universal truth that both of you need to grasp and accept:

No matter...

how "wonderful & perfect" your OM seems...
how "he says and does all the right things"...
how "unique and meant to be" it feels...
how much "better" your OM seems compared to your BH...
how much "in love" you two feel...
how much more "exciting" your affair seems than your marriage...
how "disconnected" you feel from your BH...
how desperate you are to rationalize/justify it all...

Remember this:

Any man who is willing to cheat with a married-woman...
Any man who is willing to betray his own wife and kids (if applicable)...
Any man you have to conceal, deny, and lie about 'being with'...

IS NOT A DECENT AND HONORABLE MAN EVER WORTH HAVING IN YOUR LIFE!

You are falling for the siren song of a smooth-talking, opportunistic player who has no values or loyalty. No matter how "good" he seems at first, remember that cheaters lie and liars cheat & that if he is willing to lie & cheat WITH you, then he will later be more than willing to lie & cheat ON you...

Even those rare affairs that go on to "affair-marriage", end in divorce 95+% of the time. All that glitters is not gold...

SCDW, I agree with you 100%. I need to constantly remind myself of that when I am thinking of all the "good" qualities of the OM. You are absolutely right. Thanks for the reminder. It helps.

Spring, I was there. I believed with all of my heart that I loved the OM. During our A I wrote an account of all of our times together because I "knew" if it ended I would never experience real passion again. I would hear a song and sob, remembering jogging down the street and getting texts from him. I would have the urge NOT to change the channel when a certain movie came on, remembering watching it together. I don't want to go on because it's quite frankly a waste of memory now. But I remember those days.

After my D-Day I broke NC twice because I couldn't stand not to know how he was or if he hated me. My heart sank when I saw a certain car. But it got better. The more I rid myself of those wrong thoughts, the closer I moved toward my H, the more time passed, the better it got. I replaced my thoughts by spending time with family, praying a lot, reading the Bible - I can't tell you how many pages I filled copying verses from Psalms, listening to uplifting music. And it got better. But I had to consciously NOT listen to my feelings. I had to make the right choices and not let myself look back.

One thing that is key is the choice of who to surround yourself with. Only listen to those who speak the truth. Do not listen to anyone who encourages excuses. Don't listen to anyone who sings kum-ba-ya. Go with the tough love.

Spring,

You are not a bad person, but...let's be clear here...you have done some very bad things (as you know) to your husband, family, and children.

Yes, all of us make mistakes and all of us "have sinned and fallen short". What separates a "good" person from a "bad" person is how they respond and how they learn/grow from it.

A "good person" who is recovering his/her character:
Owns up to it and takes personal responsibility
ENDS ALL HINT OF IMPROPRIETY--PERMANENTLY
Is open, honest, and fully truthful to those they have wronged
Does not make excuses and does not blame-shift or scapegoat
Asks for forgiveness and expects nothing in return
Does what IS right, even if it doesn't FEEL good at the time
Is sensitive and empathetic to those he/she has hurt
Displays sincere remorse, humility, and repentance

(see the 'Parable of the Prodigal Son' from the Bible for an exact display of what this means in practice)

A "bad person" doesn't do the above. He/she:
Makes excuses and continues to rationalize
Blames, fingerpoints, scapegoats, and demonizes others
Remains dishonest, self-entitled, stubborn, self-indulgent, & sanctimonious
Will not admit or 'look in the mirror'
Avoids reponsibility and making of amends
Doesn't care who he/she hurts
Is unremorseful and unrepentant


God gives us all a free will...we choose.

THANK YOU Lurioosi and SCDW!!! That is EXACTLY what I was looking for when I posted on this site. Since I began the A, I have become estranged from God because I was so ashamed. With your encouragement, I will go back to the Psalms and read them. And I will actively try to stop my thoughts when they start to wander toward the OM. All of this advice will help me to maintain NC, which I desperately want to do. It helps so much to know that it will get better. It's been a long time since I've had heartache over lost "love," and, frankly, I really needed some advice on how to deal with it. I didn't think it appropriate to look to my H for that advice, especially since I know that he has been dealing with his own heartbreak.

SC,

You are doing great things now...I wish more WSs showed your level of courage, introspection, and determination to "turn around" in the face of temptation.

You will need to come fully clean to your husband. You will need to go to complete and perpetual NC with your OM. You will need to send him a NC-letter that YOUR HUSBAND READS AND PRE-APPROVES OF. You will need to go through withdrawal, resist the urge to "backslide", and fully meet your BHs ENs. You will "fall out of love" with the OM and fall "back in love" with your BH. You will recover something even better than before...something you came dangerously close to throwing down the drain. Read SAA, understand Dr. Harley's system and why it ALWAYS works when followed dilligently, and do it! You can do it.

Remember, Jesus dismissed the would-be executioners, walked up to the adulteress at the stone wall, offered her forgiveness and non-condemnation, but then also said:

"Now go...and sin no more"

Keep posting here---a lot of good people want to help you and your H recover.

sc, it may sound silly, but sometimes for some a rubber band around the wrist is helpful. whenever a thought comes to mind that you don't want to be there. pull the rubber band out and let it snap your wrist. the sting might refocus your mind. some people have used this to help with cigarette addiction

Spring, I *AM* a former wayward, but that doesn't mean that the advice of betrayed spouses is not relevant. I would remind you that you only have experience from *YOUR* standpoint, which is that of a person who is fogged out and high on the addiction of an affair.

You just don't like what I say because you know it is true. I am sorry, but a woman who shags her coworkers is a laughing stock in the workplace. I doubt the one who asked you to stay KNEW about your unprofessional conduct in the workplace, did he? That is about as unprofessional as it gets. Did he know you were putting the company at legal risk by putting out with a co-worker? I bet not. How about some honesty there? But I betcha many of your coworkers know, though..........and laugh about it. It always gets out.

The bottom line, SC, is that shagging your peers in the workplace is NOT professional conduct and no one with any sense will pretend like it is. I realize you are hearing things you don't want to hear, but they are EXACTLY what you need to hear. We are objective, YOU ARE NOT. Keep that in mind. Anyone who tells you, a fogged out wayward, what you want to hear is not doing you any good. Just think about that. Your buddy, "lostinspace" is just as "LOST" as you are. And the blind can't lead the blind. If you want to be led out of the darkness, pay attention to those of us who are in RECOVERED MARRIAGES.

You are living a lie. You pretend like you are a "professional" at work and then come home and "pretend" like you are a good, faithful wife. It is all a lie, SC. Honesty is the solution to adultery, not more lies. The reason you don't want to be judged is because you know the truth. And want to run from it by telling yourself you are a "good person" while lying to those around you. Lies, lies, lies...

[An aside]
This is the classic mindset and motivations of virtually ALL WWs out there right from the source�take note, gentlemen (esp. those of you who are �drinking your wife�s Kool-Aid� in denial right now):
1. A woman very rarely leaves her marriage/home UNLESS & UNTIL she has another man on the side to run to. If she leaves or is threatening it, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise.
2. If she is scapegoating the crap out of you and/or badmouthing the heck out of your marriage (accentuating everything negative and de-accentuating everything positive), she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise.
3. If she refuses to focus on and work together to improve your marriage, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise.
4. If she talks about how newly �strong� or �independent� she has magically become, she is having an affair until DEFINITIVELY proven otherwise.

Back to you, Spring:
The �treatment� for a marriage that has become disconnected or unfulfilling is to RENEW THE MARRIAGE through consistently meeting each other�s key EN, avoiding LBs, & implementing Dr. Harley�s policies (PORH, POJA, Care & Protection, etc). It is NOT to throw the baby-out-with-the-bath-water by having an affair. You know this. I give you Pittman again:

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape�

�Marriage can survive either a husband's infidelity or a wife's, if it is stopped, brought into the open, and dealt with. I have cleaned up more affairs than a squad of motel chambermaids. Infidelity is a very messy hobby. It is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life. It is not a safe treatment for depression, boredom, imperfect marriage, or inadequate gender splendor. And it certainly does not impress the rest of us. It does not work for women any better than it does for men. It does excite the senses and the imaginations of those who merely hear the tales of lives and deaths for love, who melt at the sound of liebestods or country songs of love gone wrong. I think I've gotten more from infidelity as an observer than all the participants I've seen. Infidelity is a spectator sport like shark feeding or bull fighting�that is, great for those innocent bystanders who are careful not to get their feet, or whatever, wet. For the greatest enjoyment of infidelity, I recommend you observe from a safe physical and emotional distance and avoid any suicidal impulse to become a participant.

We all know that your marriage was not what it could/should have been before your affair started. We all know that your BH undoubtedly bears substantial responsibility for that fact as well. We all know that most affairs start under a certain set of preconditions (the about-to-be-WS feels, often legitimately, neglected, unappreciated, taken-for-granted, and/or otherwise disconnected). BUT�as Dr. Harley clearly states: �There are reasons and explanations for why affairs happen, but there are NEVER justifications.�

Please don�t take the �easy path� of bailing on your marriage/family for the siren song of a new & exciting �romance�. It is a selfish and self-destructive mirage 99+% of the time. Many fWW's here will tell you how hard it was for them to re-commit to their marriage/BH and how GLAD they are that they stuck it out. Great and valuable things are never easy�don�t forget that.

This is one of my favorite poets� lines:
� Two roads diverged in a wood, and
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.�
--Robert Frost

ARE you going to either fire OM or resign from your job??

I mean you have the job title to fire OM now, right???

Until you do one of the above.... you are still in CONTACT!

Do you understand NC??

Another question....

Did you expose the affair to your boss that gave you the promotion or is this boss maybe the OM?? lol

sc, I am still married and I most certainly DO NOT think of my husband TODAY in that light. My H changed his job to one that involved no travel abroad (we live in the UK and OW lives in Belgium) so that he could not meet OW for sex any more. He took a pay cut and lost a promotion when he refused to travel any more. He took on a job that is much less interesting and varied than the one he had and he works hard at it, without complaint, and he shows HUGE gratitude to me for giving him the chance to rebuild the marriage. He does all he can to make me happy and he seems very happy to be here himself. I wouldn't say that my marriage is "recovered" because his was a long affair with many deliberate false recoveries and much cruelty to me, and so there is a lot to recover from.

sc, I am not name calling, and in that post I wasn't directly addressing you. I was addressing lostinspace2, who made the comment.

A person HAVING an affair is a bad person of low moral character. They are willing to disregard the feelings of their spouse and children, and the other person's spouse and children, precisely "for their 10 minutes of the high".

Okay, it might not be just 10 minutes. It might be a couple of hours' shagging, as my H had with his OW in the hotel room he was renting, and sometimes it was overnight, but a WS risks hurting and losing their innocent spouse and children, and breaking up the other person's family, for the high of illicit sex. The sex is made particularly intoxicating because there is a loving spouse at home, waiting for the WS's return from work or a night out, who is looking after the kids and keeping the home warm for his or her return. How wonderful to have someone doing that for you at home and to also have someone else neglect her own children whilst she spreads her legs for two hours for you (reverse genders for you). Two people to love you that much!

A WS has a low moral character when she or he is doing those things, and whilst being a WS. When they STOP being a WS and work on their moral character they begin to improve it.

One way to recognise a reformed, repentant FWS is when they do not try to deny the ugliness of what they did and of WHO THEY WERE when they were doing it. A reformed FWS would never justify adultery on any grounds, as lostinspace2 did.

I am not saying that YOU did this. I addressed my post to lostinspace2.

I always found Matthew 23 described me as a wayward best!

Jesus was very direct and did not apologize or say these were really good people that just made a mistake either.

I would say SC fits right in there with these pharisee still ..... as did, I while wayward and still lying to everyone around me.