Managed to check in with a legal friend yesterday. Bad news re the unreasonable behaviour burden of proof argument.

"If you chose to be the petitioner on the grounds of adultery, the burden of proof is very high. If she did not admit to the adultery, you would have to have DIRECT proof (not conjecture, here say or hotel bills) to a court that she had penetrative sexual intercourse with a person of the opposite sex to whom she was not married."

I don't have anything near that. So I expect it will have to be the uncontested route of 24 months separation. Boo hiss. I was hoping to serve her that nice little nutshell of contested divorce at a particularly telling moment. Like just before she goes on holiday with OM, or on first day of new job.

Goblin,
I am watching this space! I wrote a lngthy post to you last night, but somehow lost it...never had that happen before. Anyway, now I am limited on time, but I jsut wanted to say you are doing great and it's nice to see the development from when you first got here.
Keep it up G, you're headed in the right direction.
opt

Thanks.

She's still living it up with the OM, still owes me money. But at least most days I have a smile on my face.

Visited in laws today. They know nothing about the OM except that there is one. I didn't add to it. Just pleased that he isn't so much the light and life of the STBXW that she's told her family. They're still obviously very enamoured with me and once again expressed their disgust. Apparently the STBXW has been feeling wretched recently, although I'm not sure why. I wonder if consequences are finally coming to bear.

The OM is also finding it tough at work still. Must be stacking up in my favour soon.

Left a letter with her Dad too, to say if she doesn't pay up her �1k I'll be taking her to small claims court to recoup it on solicitors advice. Not good for an accountant to have a court judgement against them, not to mention the screwing of her credit score. But I've waited 2 months too long for this money already. No more Mr Nice Guy.

Goblin:

Question:


You mentioned others. Is his conduct as a serial predator common knowledge?

Larry

Goblin:

Most serial predators push certain buttons. If you know anyone who has been his victim, probably best to vet what I am going to post to you before you pull the trigger on it. There are several techniques a predator will use. The following is the one most common.

Larry
_________________

He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown [copied from the TOW board]

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't (doesn't) have with his wife [or ex-wife, lover, etc.]. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you really are or really need (or whatever) - and he's the first person to really do that, or the first one in a long time, now isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you.

He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore [yea, right]. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, have fun with and just relax and be yourself, isn't it? And he can lean on you!

All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for lately and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable.

He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for (even if you didn't know you were looking), because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you.

He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right?

Not with you. You're special. You can fix him. So what if he told his wife [es-wife, lover, girl friend, affair partner] the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his ****** with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you. You can save him. So what when he had his problems he used her for a while, with you he will be different, you're special.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women.

That doesn't mean that he'll be in turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 3 (or four) decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife has emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too!

If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance".

It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with (his wife, or whoever). He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history of pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now thinks he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU. This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it, or whoever), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU.

He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times and threw things! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM.

Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you.

He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. If he breaks his word, it won't be his fault, someone else drove him to do it.

With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omit the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way?

So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandoned her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his ****** together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?
___________________________________

Everyone at our workplace knows his MO. He was described as "a whirling dervish of relationship destruction" by one of my colleagues. It's a shame I thought our marriage was strong enough to not be subject to such immorality. I was trusting, and was duped as well. At the end of his penultimate relationship it was a matter of days before he was snogging the face off his next beau (only engaged this time) in full view of both his ex (who'd left her husband for him unfortunately) and most of the Emergency Dept outside the large windows of the coffee room.

They also all know what he's done this time, and the vast majority are disgusted. He has a few faithful followers, one of which is the senior nurse that was the recipient of his manipulation in the first place. Heaven knows how or why 'S' chooses to keep him in her life as even a friend. She must be incredibly lonely, or incredibly stupid. One of my fellow doctors also believes he is "a man of great integrity" so I stopped speaking to her - she's obviously a very poor judge of character.

Apparently they're now plotting to try and have me removed from my job. I know this is impossible as I've not put a foot wrong, unless being open about my private life with those I choose to be is suddenly grounds for dismissal! I think the consequences are coming to bear on them. Fortunately I don't have many shifts left working with him as I'm on secondment to paediatrics at the moment and am then due to rotate to another hospital in August anyway. I'll let them keep plotting and think they've won when I move on, unbeknownst it was my time anyway!

In the meantime life goes on. I have a dinner party tonight for some of my closest friends and am back at work tomorrow. Social engagements arranged every night next week and then another weekend away in my Scottish cottage for the bank holiday. Life is still good for me.

You are doing well to move on and make a good life for yourself. Hopefully she will choose to join you.

One thing you need to do is tell her parents that he is a serial predator. They need to know that. Ask them for their help in saving your marriage.

This describes my WW's POSOM so well, he must have been the case study. Textbook psychopath behavior.

Unfortunately I don't think this knowledge can do anything for you, other than give you some sort of explanation. The wayward has to figure it out for themselves.

Yep, you're right. Although finally consequences are coming to bear I think. POSOM is finding things not all rosy at work, and STBXW is now surely feeling the weight of her family's disgust.

Thanks all for your support.

I told her parents the same day I found out (which was I think about 6 weeks after the bomb. Her surrogate MIL knows about the nature of OM, but FIL really doesn't know anything about the OM. I told him the name and where he works on Tue evening. I don't really want to get into a big tit for tat with her family, as they mean a lot to me. I know that they are disgusted with her, all think she's making the biggest mistake of her life. They would help if they knew how. The FIL doesn't have the kind of relationship with her to talk about it. The STBXW has made great efforts to avoid the surrogate MIL at all costs, despite best efforts of the latter to pin her down for a chat. The MIL unfortunately died shortly after I met the STBXW so is out of the picture.

Best hope is the surrogate MIL, who takes no bull**** off anyone and has known her since she was born. She will do anything she can to help. Unfortunately we all know that whilst STBXW is in the fog with this manipulative predatory OM there is absolutely no point.

Stop the predator OM nonsense. Your wife is perfectly capable of keeping her clothes on.

You're lucky it was after only 6 months of marriage. You've little invested. Move on to someone who will love you.

Goblin, after months of anxiety, worry, fear and doubt over my own situation, sadly I have to agree with MaiMai.

No matter how scummy the POSOM might be, our wives are adults and are perfectly capable of making up their own minds.

It's not that they lost their heads, it's that they had/have terribly weak boundaries.

Can they be fixed? That is the real question.

In my case, unfortunately the answer is, "no." I can't speak for yours.

But you need to think this through logically. When you're done taking a long swim in the emotional ocean, try to see things as they are.

I'm just at the moment buying my popcorn and taking my seat. The previous "love of my life" of the OM has just come back to work in our dept. And is looking hot. It's only Xmas that they broke up. Bring on the love triangle!

I don't want her back anymore. I still want her to realise her errors and at least have a shot at sorting herself out.

Have just filed at the county court to recoup the money she owes me. Tired of writing letter, emails and txt asking for it back now. Shame it will wreck her credit record, mess up her career as she'll be obliged to inform her professional organisation and employer as an accountant. But you reap what you sow, and I won't be walked over.

How are you holding up Goblin?

Ticking along. Have finished renovations on my Scottish cottage and am overwhelmed by the response in terms of folk wanting to rent it. All extremely positive. Have been keeping busy with friends, booked my final exams for Sept 2012 which should give me some time to enjoy the summer before hitting the books in all my spare time. I wish someone had told me when I applied for med school I'd still be sitting professional exams aged 33!

The STBXW is playing silly beggars. She is now stating that I owe her 2 months rent and a parking charge for my car being on her drive for >2 months whilst waiting for insurers to collect it for write off. All in response to me filing against her for renovation expenses on her rental house which I lived in for lets see - 3 weeks.

She's still cavorting around publically with the OM, and the FIL is saying that if the OM ever visits the farm he'll be fed into the combine harvester lol.

Oh the tangled webs we weave.

I am going on a date on Friday. Not expecting anything to come of it, but at least I'm getting out there again.

Still find it hard to believe some days that just 8 months ago I stood in front of everyone as happy as I've ever been, declaring my love for someone who has ripped out my very being and stomped all over it. I do hope to never make that mistake again.

Is that in the same family as the wood chipper?

Wait, you're dating? Are you divorced?

As the official MB farmer....


pic

[/farming TJ]

NO DATING!

Have you gone mad?