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#2365838 04/30/10 11:36 PM
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Hi everyone... I recently (less than a month ago) found this site.

Obviously something is going on, and obviously as most everyone here has probably experianced, its very painful and scary and I am going to spill it here in the hopes that it helps me come to grips with some of it and stay focused. Perhaps selfishly, I am also hoping for some encouragement or something to help me feel better about all of this. Reading others success stories has helped a lot already.

Just prior to finding this site, I also recently (less than a month ago, go figure) was told by my wife that she was going to leave me. She isnt ready to actually move out, but seems to have completely detached from me emotionally. We have a 15 month old son and just finished a huge transition period where we moved, I left the military, started a new job, and we spent about 4 months in there (Dec - Mar) living in a friends house with 5 adults and our child until we got our house. Very cramped and no privacy. I have known our relationship was under a lot of stress and crumbling for about 6 months (just before we moved) and back than she had said if things dont get better she would leave and agreed to go to counseling. However, she said 2 years for things to get better and since than has given other time tables (none less than 6 months, once she said 3 years) so this whole "I am done now, dont bother trying to win me back its over its too late" thing has been like a JDAM dropped on a bunker by a stealth bomber: I had no idea it was coming. The signs I did see I just thought were a result of the stress of our temporary living situation and that we could really get to fixing things once we got into our new house. Now I have the house she picked it out in the location she wanted and she says she plans to leave.

All this is very scary and frightening to me.

I hesitate to talk to my friends and family for advice or anything because I dont want us to make it through this and then they beome a part of it.

Issues we have.

Me: I havent been a very good husband in many ways. We have been married 5 years this month, and I have spent at least the last 6 years avoiding dealing with various emotional things relating to past deployments as well as our first sons death (premature baby, 3 years ago). I avoided it by engaging in activities like games and books that would occupy my mind. Shutting out these things also shut me off from my wife and our son. I, for all intents, pretty much ignored them.

I feel ashamed and disappointed in myself for this.

I also can go through the Love Busters and say I have done every single one, most of them habitually. Independant Behavior is a huge one. I know I have Annoying Habits, and Angry Outbursts maybe too, though I think her and I would probably have differing opinions on that one. Disrepectful Behavior in the ways I have ignored her opinions and thoughts on stuff and continued doing my thing and not being completely open. I havent lied, but I havent been the open book of complete honesty telling her everything she deserved to know.

About 6 months ago a few things started to click for me and I slowly began "putting myself" back together. I started trying to look at the things I was doing and stop just existing on autopilot. The transition made this harder but still, I started noticing the things I was doing or not doing. About a month and a half ago I completely quit playing games and reading recreational books, especially while my son was awake or my wife was doing something that I could with her. I started looking up and researching things about communicating and started trying to make a better effort to listen to her, and pay attention to and be involved with her and my son. It was hard living in that house with everyone because I never felt like we could talk.

Now we have our house. She generally has a look on her face of disgust as soon as our son is asleep. However, we have occasionally had some good conversations. They dont end well, but a lot of things have come out that neither of us had any idea were even issues, especially me. I found out a bunch of habits I have that annoy her that I have had since we met that I NEVER KNEW annoyed her. She had never mentioned it. Not really big things either, nothing I would have an issue with changing had I known.

During the day, she acts happy around our son, but we dont touch, and she mostly doesnt talk to me unless its a specific request of some sort like "get a bottle" or "will you change this diaper?"

As soon as our bed and couch got here, she said she didnt want to sleep near me and asked if she would have to go to the couch. I said I want her to be happy and comfortable and that I would go sleep on the couch.

One of my very annoying habits is the way I discuss and debate things. I am a very analytical person, with very terrible listening things. These are traits I have recently become aware of and am starting to work on them. Previously I would listen to someone with my brain thinking of ways they were wrong, or ways to question them to "prove" them wrong or show that they dont make sense. Obviously this is a very counterproductive way to discuss things like emotional needs and feelings. I have been making a special effort to STOP this line of thinking, and try to LISTEN to what people (not just her) are saying and trying to understand them. Also, not offering my thoughts without being asked.

I have told her all of these things and that I was working on things about myself, but one of the things she has said is that "I dont want you to change for me, you are who you are and you deserve to have that." I have explained to her that its not just for her, even if she was gone tomorrow, they are still things I need to fix and improve just to be a decent person and a better father.

I spent that first month after she said she planned to leave just wallowing in guilt and shame over my behavior the last 5 years, as well as frustration and fear because I didnt (and still dont) feel like I have any control over anything and I dont want to lose her.

Her: However, a new line has popped up as I think about this and review information on this site and as I read His Needs Her Needs.

My wife is a very giving person. She is generous and kind to people she cares about. However, she will give to the point of accepting unhappiness for herself. Things like she doesnt like the way I make her sandwiches, ever since we met, but I just found that out a week ago because she had never bothered to tell me because she "didnt want to hurt my feelings." This has been a common thing in the few discussions we have had. She has things she is hurt about or upset with, or just sick of, but many of them are things I had no idea were a problem.

So now I am feeling hurt and betrayed. She said she would give me a chance to fix the things in myself, but then up and just said she was leaving. She also said she would give it a chance, but has never told me the things she needed, or the things I did that she didnt like and would prefer to be different. Its like "sure if you get to the finish line we can stay together, but I'm not telling you where the finish line is." Now she has even removed the finish line. She told me to stop doing her laundry as it makes her feel uncomfortable. She mentioned that one of her major issues was that she didnt feel appreciated, and I sure did do a lousy job of showing my appreciation so I starting trying to do things to show it. I started leaving little notes under her door, or on her TV or in her Kitchen telling her specific things she did that day that I appreciated and how much they meant to me. She told me to stop leaving notes, said they make her feel uncomfortable and refused to explain why they made her feel that way. She has threatened to "leave faster" if I make her stay uncomfortable.

Now I sort of walk on egg shells because I dont want to piss her off and drive her away, but we need to talk.

Good news, she has said she wants to be friends and make this amicable. She says we have a child to raise and have to do it together even though we wont be married. To me this is at least something. I feel like to do this we will have to resolve many of our issues anyway. Get rid of the resentment and anger. She has agreed to go to counseling for this, though she adamantly states that its not going to change her mind about leaving.

All in all, I am at this moment, feeling very frustrated hurt and scared. I dont like at all that she has stated that she will never be able to be happy with me. I firmly believe this to be an "unwilling" statement and NOT an inability. I think she is CHOOSING to continue this. She has said that she thinks it would be better for our son to be raised by us seperately and happy, rather than together in a miserable house. She says this without even considering that we could be happy.

I am very unhappy with the way she is making a point to disengage from me. Like not letting me cook her a meal or do her laundry and so on. She says she didnt feel appreciated and that I didnt do things to show her how important she is to me, but now that I try to do them, she tells me to stop. I feel like she is struggling willingly to keep this rift, and I cant understand why she should fight so hard for it. She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy. I believe there are MANY people who could make her happy, but none of them is going to be the father of her 2 children or have been a part of the experiances we have survived already. No one has the potential to understand her and make her as happy as I COULD. And I hate to say "stay together for the kids" but really, at least give it a TRY for the kids. I cant believe she has said she has made up her mind and will not change it.

We were very happy once.

Both of our parents divorced when we were very young. Neither of us has seen an example of how a relationship should be. We went through the 5 years of our marriage stumbling blind. We never talked to anyone, never learned how to talk to eachother, never learned our own needs or what was making us unhappy, and never communicated these things to eachother. I feel like neither of us has really "tried" yet on this marriage. She can say she gave so much, but really, I think deep down, it was motivated by a fear. She didnt tell me the things that she didnt like or that upset her because she didnt want to rock the boat. Thats great and all, its something we can work on, but she says things like "I did try, and now I cant anymore."

I dont feel like we ever tried. I am glad we are going to counseling on May 10th, but I am very anxious we are going to get one of those "Yep you need a divorce" types. I have started gathering phone numbers and calling others in the area and asking them what they think about Doc Harley's approach (I found a post with that as a tip to finding a "good" counselor).

I still feel ashamed of myself for my previous behavior, and am still motivated to make changes in myself and my life. I am also hurt and frustrated with her for her apparent unwillingness to take any responsibility or to put forth any effort, even a try for the sake of our child.

I am hoping to get some encouragement and maybe information or tips from people with suggestions on how I can continue to stay positive and make positive and effective changes.

I have to go to bed now, we have a walk for March of Dimes tomorrow (well, today now) that we do every year in remembrance of our first son. I am hoping it can be a positive experiance for us together as a family.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2365863 05/01/10 06:47 AM
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Quote
She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy.

Have you done any snooping to determine if she believes this because he's already in the picture? It's much more likely that she is just now telling you all the things you've done to annoy her all these years because she is re-writing your marital history to justify her affair. Get to snooping. There are some great snooping pointers on the Surviving an Affair board.

I hope she is not having an affair, but this is something that you ought to rule out. Don't ask her if she is. Snoop.

You can do everything right and still fail if there is an OP (other person) in the picture.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2365893 05/01/10 08:50 AM
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Hi BT: Sorry you have to be here. You are doing the right things, taking the right steps as far as realizing you have many weeds to pull on your side of the fence.

While it's possible your wife has met, or is thinking of meeting, or is inappropriately involved with, someone else, it's also very possible that she could have been unhappy for a long time, said nothing and reached the "I'm done" stage that many giving women reach before they announce anything. It's tougher to reconcile and rebuild the marriage, but it's still possible.

Definitely you should rule out an affair but I wouldn't wait to start other parts of this program in the meantime.

IMO, the best thing you could do is to call Steve Harley and talk to him. He's great at helping to encourage reluctant spouses into counseling with him and he's awesome at reaching them once they do. And the sticky stuff...her lovebusters, etc...Steve can play the middleman there and deliver the bad news while the two of you work on building ENs and making love bank deposits. It's well worth the money.

She hasn't left yet, and she seems hesitant, given the different time frames. I would take that as a good sign.

I also would advise though, that you not make it any easier for her to dissolve the marriage. You don't have to be an a$$ about it, but it's YOUR bed too, you should be sleeping in it. Your answer to her desire for a divorce should be "I don't do divorce, I do marriage and I want to do marriage with you." and then tell her how you want to counsel w/ the Harleys.

Good luck.

OurHouse #2365926 05/01/10 10:40 AM
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In your situation I would do my best to show her and to discuss the benefits of staying under the same roof while you get counseling.

Then I would get on the phone and make a phone appointment with Dr. Harley so that you two (in separate conversations) can discuss your marriage and what to do. Traditional marriage counseling does not have a high success rate. Your best avenue is to work through the Marriage Builders concepts.

Your wife doesn't like what you're doing because it puts her in conflict and makes her second guess what she's doing. Consistency and filling the emotional needs she will allow are important.

Being military put your marriage at a distinct disadvantage. Acknowledge that to her and tell her you want to focus on her and the marriage and get everything back on track, that you don't want to be the kind of husband (or person) you were and need her help and patience.

Weekends are slow here. Things should pick up come Monday.

Try to spend some undivided attention with her daily, making her smile or laugh without talking about the marriage. Remember what you did before you got married to make each other happy. Do those things if possible. Undivided attention is extremely important and will make it difficult for her to stay in withdrawal.

Last edited by Soolee; 05/01/10 10:41 AM.

Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
Soolee #2365928 05/01/10 10:43 AM
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Editing to say that Dr. H will start you on a real, viable course of action to get things back on track or at least optimize your chances. I originally posted about questionnaires. You may want to wait to talk to Dr. H before doing those. If you can't afford counseling with Dr. H., then come back and someone here will try to help you.

It's important to note that we are your peers here, not professionals.

Last edited by Soolee; 05/01/10 10:46 AM.

Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
Soolee #2365982 05/01/10 12:19 PM
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Thank you guys. We just finished our annual family March of Dimes walk we do in honor of our first son who died.

As for the affair, it almost cannot be a physical affair since we just moved and she knows NO ONE down here. I also dont think it is and have kinda done a little bit of snooping, though not on purpose and havent seen any signs.

She has agreed still to go to counseling, and we have an appointment with one on 10 May, but I am looking for one in our area that follows MB type Marriage Coaching. I am considering just doing the phone one with Doc Harley's.

She says she wants to be friends and do this amicably, but she is done. I have tried to discuss why we should really give it a try, but she says she did and is done. Me telling her what she should do is the last thing she wants to hear, except maybe me telling her she is wrong.

The walk went ok, we met a lady and we all shared some life experiances and the lady made some comments about how we have gone through so much together and was amazed that we lasted through it despite being in the military and deployments and such.

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"Your wife doesn't like what you're doing because it puts her in conflict and makes her second guess what she's doing. Consistency and filling the emotional needs she will allow are important."

I have considered this, and it kinda inspires me to keep going with my personal things.

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"Try to spend some undivided attention with her daily, making her smile or laugh without talking about the marriage. Remember what you did before you got married to make each other happy. Do those things if possible. Undivided attention is extremely important and will make it difficult for her to stay in withdrawal."

A couple suggestions like this. Ok, I will try to think about how to do this. It is SO HARD to not talk about the "us." Through all this I have discovered that one of my ENs is Communication, which was weird since its a woman one supposedly, but I used to tell her EVERYTHING, and now I feel like she doesnt want to hear it anymore and I would only push her away.

Thats the same thing with the "its my bed too" thing. I am having trouble determining the line where I dont want to piss her off and make her leave right now, but I dont want to be the rug either. She was being very rude the other day and I stopped and calmly said, "I do not appreciate the way you are talking to me. You wouldnt act like this to a stranger, please at least be considerate." She had a mini 25 second blow up, but I remained calm, walked away after closing the conversation, and about 10 minutes later she began to at least maintain a base level of civility and politeness.

I dont know. I am very frustrated and almost desperate. She is looking for jobs and apartments online and making plans for leaving and asking if she can have the bed or this or that. I have so far refrained from talking about those things, saying that I am not comfortable having those discussions until we resolve some of the resentment and trust issues between us and have a method of communicating without either of us blowing up.

I need to find us help fast.

I read the "Marraige Coach" thing and feel thats what we really need.

The only people she really talks to now are 3-5 friends she has, her own age, who all have children out of wedlock and detest the fathers, and live accross the country from us so dont really see anything about what is really happening besides talking to her. I dont think she shares all the details with them, but she talks about stuff and gets their veiwpoints on things.

Not exactly an inspirational group.

Right now, she is the veritable definition of withdrawal. It makes me sick that I didnt see this much earlier and let it get to this point, even though I have realized she shares some blame for not saying anything. I still feel like I should have noticed or something.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2365986 05/01/10 12:26 PM
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If I were in your situation, I'd get on the phone with Dr. H ASAP. With your W if at all possible, without her if that's the only way you can do it. It's very difficult to find MB MC's IRL. She's going to need to hear a lot of really hard evidence that you are really changing and "proof" from professionals that it's going to stick to make her want to consider staying if she's already out the door in her head.


"When people show you who they are, believe them." -- Maya Angelou
BTinTrouble #2365990 05/01/10 12:33 PM
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I am planning to do the questionnaires best I can by myself, in the hopes that I learn about myself, and maybe we can use them in the future.

Is there a list or something of Marriage Coaches who use MB methods and where to find them so I could find one in our area?


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2365996 05/01/10 12:46 PM
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This is a common delusion:
Quote
She says she believes there is someone out there that could make her happy.

No one can be happy in the long term without taking responsibility for what they need to do do make themselves happy.

2. Your wife's "friends" are straight out of what Dr. Harley writes about, those who "support" her by encouraging her to behave independently, so she can "be happy".

3. Military problems are unique. Have you posted over in the new Military forum as well as here?

4. Maybe your wife would fill out the questionnaires if she thought it was something that might be useful to her future happiness. Although right now she might think that means divorced, filling out the ENQ and LBQ might get her to read HNHN and then get her to a phone counseling session.

Retread #2366122 05/01/10 08:14 PM
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She initially said she would read HNHN when I was done, but when I finished it said "I have too little free time to waste on that."

I have also tried suggesting we work things out at least to the point so that we can learn what went wrong and help us in the future regardless of where we are as "us" at that time.

I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change. I approached her with the ENQ and LBQ's with the reasoning that we would learn alot about ourselves and eachother, but she said no. She says she doesnt feel she has to tell me what her needs are anymore, since she is done.

I have been on the military forum, but I am no longer in the military, so I believe whatever additional damage resulted from that seperation, it is past now and I dont think we really have the excuse of being "prior" military spouses to explain our hardships. At this point, the past is past and we must decide how we will respond to it, put it to rest, and move forward. In this respect we are like any couple on the rocks. How we got there might be different but how and if we get back on track wont be much different. The personal issues I had leftover from the military are pretty much resolved at this point, I think, though they certainly wreaked havoc during the long period that I tried to ignore them and act like everything was fine.

I havent read what you referred to about her "friends." Would be neat to find that. In addition, her father, a rather sensible fellow who I dont KNOW would tell her to stay with me, but who I do believe would tell her what he thought was best is also currently out a phone and internet for the last 3 months, so one of her only voices of reason she has ever turned to to talk things over with is gone too... hooray.

I dont want this to seem like I didnt hurt her. Neither of us cheated on the other or anything, but I certainly neglected my wife. I copy pasted Doc Harley's article "why women leave men" and emailed to her and a bunch of people and she read the first part explaining the womans reaction and today told me that it perfectly summed her feeling up. Ironically, she said she stopped reading after that because what it was saying about the guy's attitude pissed her off and she thought it was nonsense, so not only did she not read that, but she missed the conclusion of the article which was the biggest point made to me, that anything can be fixed and divorce is not the answer for anyone, including the children. I dont understand how she can recognize that Doc is so perfectly correct about the woman's feelings, but then can so quickly decide he doesnt know what he's talking about as far as the man is concerned. To me, the fact that he got the woman spot on would make me question MY viewpoints if I disagreed on the other parts. I just dont get it.

After our walk for March of Dimes today, we went to one of her friends house for a gathering of some sort. It went fine, I took care of our son and the husband and I entertained eachother and the kids while about 8 women had a merry old time discussing and buying candles from our hostess.

On the way home she brought up counseling, asking what the point was. I told her (H is husband, me, W is wife, her):

H: Worst case scenario for me, counseling helps us resolve enough of our resentment and trust issues so that we can have a functional relationship to allow communication and raising our son together, even if we are apart.

W: We dont need that, I dont want a relationship with you. I will do what I think is best for my son, and you can always be his father but I dont want him to be like you.

H: Well then dont you think it would be good if we are able to talk about those things and come to an agreement that we both enthusiastically support?

W: Well, I am not going to change my mind, I guess all I want is a happy ending and to out of my relationship with you. I dont love you at all anymore. I have a tiny bit just because you gave me my son, but you hurt me over and over and I am sick of, and am done. I dont mean to be mean or to hurt you, I am just being honest.

H: I am not hurt nor do I think you are mean when you are honest. I respect that you have your own thoughts and feelings. I appreciate that you share them with me. Dont you think that if we had always done a better job sharing our thoughts and feelings that we wouldnt be in this position.

W: I only am honest with you because I dont care about your feelings. I dont care about you anymore, I am not like this with people I like.

H: (short silence)

W: Sometimes I think it would have been better if you had just cheated on me because then it would be just one incident instead of all those times you hurt me and made me feel alone.

H: Well, I dont think thats a fair statement, because affairs dont just happen on their own. An affair would just be a cherry on top of the sundae we already have.

W: You dont know that, you havent had an affair.

H: I have read a lot of stories of people who have though, and they all agree on that, affairs dont just happen.

W: Well its not the same, it wasnt our same situation. So you dont know.

H: Ok, you are right, its not our same situation, so I dont KNOW, but you dont know either so I dont think its fair to me or you to wish that one of us had had an affair.

W: Whatever. I dont care what you read or what changes you are making, I am done. I have made up my mind. I deserve better than you.

H: You deserve better than what I have been.

W: I deserve someone who I dont have to work to be happy with. I deserve someone I can just be happy with and not have to be miserable for 5 years.

H: I truly want you to be happy, but I hope that you dont really believe that it just happens, it takes work to have a successful relationship. I know there are other people out there you could be happy with, but I have been thinking a lot. Everytime you tell me about something I think about it for days. I compare it to what I remember, and what I am learning and try to understand what went wrong. I have noticed that most of things you have mentioned that you dont like about me or the way I did things are what are called Traits. Traits are like "you are annoying" or "you are a bad father." You cant really change traits, but you can identify the Habits, the what do I do that makes me annoying or a bad father.

W: (interupt) I dont want to have to sit here and waste my time telling you all those things.

H: I know, you have said you dont want to talk to me about those so I respect your thoughts and opinions and wishes and I dont ask you. It would help a lot if you could tell me what habits they are but I wont ask. Instead, I think and try to identify them to myself by asking "what was I doing when she said I was being annoying." The point of this is that Traits you cant really change but the habits you can. So I believe that eventually, with a little time, I could be all these things you want me to be, because ultimately, they are all just various habits, some to break, some to make. So earlier when you would say "I COULD never be happy with you," I could not agree with you or accept it as an absolute truth, since the things that would make you happy are habits I could change. Now you have said that you dont want to wait and you dont want to have someone that has ever made you unhappy. That is your choice, a decision you make that I have to accept.

W: I dont get your point. I know I am not going to wait for you fix all these things, even if you succeed. I dont want to be hurt by you anymore, and I deserve to be happy.

At this point, our son woke up in the back seat, but what I would have said was that many other people could make her happy, but none of them have 2 children with her, and went through the things that we went through together. I could, over time developing habits, make her just as happy as anyone else out there could, but no one else has those previous bonds with her that we have together. I am hoping this can come out in counseling.

She has always said that she is very much about "Marraige is forever" and things along this line. She has scoffed at others getting divorces saying they are taking the easy way out. Now she laughs when someone says "I want to spend forever with him" and she responds, "no one lasts forever honey," as if each of us doesnt have a set of Grandparents who remained married until one of them died.

I understand that her love bank account of me is in the red. I understand many of the things I did to put it there. However, I dont understand her unwillingness to try to make it better. I dont accept it when she says "I cant try." I dont accept it when she tries to tell me that its MOSTLY my fault if she leaves. Honestly, I cant yet bring myself to accept ANY of the blame if she does in fact leave. I am trying. I have not given up. Her being done is not a state of being that she cant control, its a personal choice. To me its a selfish choice, since it hurts our son.

I really hope we can work this out. She sounds like she will still go to counseling. I think I will call Doc Harley's counseling and see if I can arrange something before the 10th. I know I need a LOT of help to be able to learn to be more empathic and learn her needs and learn to break LB habits, but I think first we (her and I) need her to give a crap and be engaged. It is especially frustrating, since she previously told me, about 5 months ago, that she would be committed to going to counseling and trying to work things out once we "got settled in" down here. We just got settled in and she out of nowhere decided "Nope, I'm done."

Reading Doc Harley's article about Marriage COACHING, getting the person in withdrawel to do what they dont want to do, seems just what we need.


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BTinTrouble #2366151 05/01/10 09:47 PM
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Ok, I feel like I am doing something wrong here...

I am becoming frustrated with her for what seems to me to be her UNWILLINGNESS to try to make this work, which I attribute to selfishness since it is for her only, and hurts our son. I dont count my pain since that is not part of her concern right now, but the rest stands.

However, if I really thought she was that kind of person I wouldnt even want to stay. Also, I dont believe she is that kind of person.

I suppose she could be confused and just doesnt get that she is being selfish, but then I would be assuming that I am right and I need to fix her.

So I need to figure out where she is coming from so that the things she says make sense to her. So far I cant create a reality where they might make sense to me, but maybe I am missing something.

Any thoughts or ideas?


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BTinTrouble #2366156 05/01/10 09:57 PM
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I am sorry your in this situation. I was in similar shoes for a long time. It wasnt until i descided to go to MC on my own that really got my wife seeing how serious i was to making our marraige work.

I would not worry too much at this point .. she is going to be resentful and try to dismiss your efforts becasue she is confused. Just give her space to watch you make your changes and focus on you and your son. She will see the changes eventually. ITs only been a few days ... dont let her withdrawn attitude drag you down. Realy keep pouring on the effort. Meet all her emotional needs .. if you know what they are, fill out the questionairs. If she is willing to work on the marriage. Tell her that taking on teh basics here and sticking to them is far cheaper than an MC. But do the MC because maybe she needs to see your serious about what it is you say your going to do.

I dont have much advice at this time other than what i said above. Give her space to recoup ... tell her how she means the world to you and your son, and then show it by following the basics here.

YOu can do it ... just stay focused ... and come back here for support.

Edit : just to add that UA time is very important ... but try to keep it light and relaxing and not bring up the marriage difficulties too much. That will help bring her out of withdrawl.

Last edited by MrNiceGuy; 05/01/10 10:10 PM.
MrNiceGuy #2366173 05/01/10 11:01 PM
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MNG, thanks for the words.

It hasnt really been a few days. Its been a few months. I completely quit playing video games and recreational reading about 1.5 months ago. I have been using the time to try to fufill needs and create / break habits.

I think you are definately right about the time part. Its going to take time to earn the trust. Also, the UA is a huge problem right now. She actively avoids being around me. I get home, eat what she has made if she makes something, and then as soon as I "have" the kid for bedtime routine, she takes off till about 9pm to go be alone. This kinda irritates me because I know being a mom is hard work, but I also work, and I dont get to run off for a few hours for "me time." I am trying not to "rock the boat" at this time, so I just vent it here. However, even when we do get to a conversation, I have a lot of things to unlearn and fix and I have occasionally regressed and made the conversations a negative experiance. I am getting better at this. We had about 1.5 hours of positive interaction time today, and about 1 hour of talking about marriage stuff that stayed at least neutral where neither of us appeared upset.

The hard part is maintaining this positive outlook.

I know all these changes are good for me to make even if she does leave, but she has been my reason for everything for over half of my adult life...

This song really said it and has really touched a nerve for me...

Breakeven by The Script, you can hear it on Youtube

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in, (my comment: Amen...)
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even.

Her best days will be some of my worst,
She finally met a man that's gonna put her first,
While I'm wide awake, she's no trouble sleeping,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces
I'm falling to pieces

They say bad things happen for a reason
But no wise words gonna stop the bleeding
'Coz she's moved on while I'm still grieving
And when a heart breaks
no it don't break even, even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

You got his heart and my heart and none of the pain,
You took your suitcase, I took the blame.
Now I'm tryna make sense of what little remains, oh.
'Coz you left me with no love, with no love to my name.

I'm still alive but I'm barely breathing,
Just prayed to a god that I don't believe in,
'Coz I got time while she got freedom,
'Coz when a heart breaks
no it don't break, no it don't
break, no it don't break even no.

What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you
What am I supposed to say when I'm all choked up and you're ok
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces, yeah
I'm falling to pieces,
(One still in love
while the other one's leaving)
I'm falling to pieces,
(Cuz when a heart breaks
no it don't break even)

Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, it don't break even, no
Oh, It don't break even, no


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2366177 05/01/10 11:09 PM
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Looking for any advice on things I might be missing or things I could be doing better.

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I have tried a few things, like made her a list of formatted songs she liked so she could listen to them on her phone. She has also allowed me to give her a massage a few times. I only recently watched a couple instructional videos and started reading the massage book she bought me a while ago, but a few simple techniques have at least enabled me to be able to give a 45-60 minute massage whereas before poor body mechanics was leaving me with cramped fingers and sore wrists in about 15 mins.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - I realize now that the reason we stopped doing this was due to 1) My poor listening skills and 2) Tendancy to "debate" things and basically go till I am right and "win" or am proven wrong. Since she doesnt really like this sort of communication and also doesnt like to tell me something makes her unhappy, she just began to avoid communication. Since she didnt really engage when I would try talk at her some more, we werent really conversing. Now I am actively practicing my listening skills, paraphrasing, being quiet and asking open ended questions to ensure I understand, and asking her what she thinks. Also working harder to avoid DJ's and just let her say what she thinks and simply accept it as the truth for her and work with it.

***Recreational Companionship - We sort of get this because we take our son out for things. I try to talk to her while we are out and try to stay pleasant as well as try to make the activities fun. She does not want to excercise with me or generally acompany me on anything at this point.

***Honesty and Openness - I am not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. Looking for ideas.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - Historically I have been really bad about this. Since then I have made it a point to do every dish I see laying around, check the dishwasher for clean dishes to put away, wipe things down, clean our sons things, pick up toys and things, sweep, help out whenever she is doing something, I make sure I am helping or doing something else productive. She has told me specifically NOT to do her laundry and passively avoids allowing me to make her a meal as much as possible.

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky)

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes."


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - I dont think I have had a problem with this. I cannot recall a time that I have told her "do this because I want it, I dont care if you dont want it." This perception may be due to a misunderstanding on what Selfish Demands are. I believe I am much more guilty of Independant Behavior, rather than selfish demands. I dont demand that she do something, I just do what I want...

Disrespectful Judgements - I am sure I am guilty of this one, in fact, I am confused about a specific thing a couple posts up, in regards to me thinking she is being selfish and unreasonable. I really need help with this one. I just know there are probably DJ's clouding my judgement and filtering my perceptions that I am not even aware of. To all of you that are bothering to read my walls of text I thank you so much and PLEASE let me know if you spot anything.

Angry Outbursts - I am guilty of this at times. I would say the vast majority of the time she "starts it" but I know that that doesnt make it ok for me to do it, and that she probably has the opposite perception, and we are probably both wrong. Regardless, I have been making an even more supreme effort to remain calm and rational at all times. I have a tendancy to be calm and rational anyway, to the point that it can annoy people that tend to get emotional, but once I start to feel frustrated or a lack of control I sometimes get angry. I have recently noticed this and begun to watch for early signs of frustration and stop there and breathe before it gets worse.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember.
You dont listen - I have been doing a lot of work, hard work, on proper listening skills. This one has been a real battle, but progress is being made.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me.

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of.


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.


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BTinTrouble #2366242 05/02/10 09:58 AM
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BT, my kids love that Breakeven song, play it over and over. I like it, too, a sad, beautiful song. The line that really resonates with my is "What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you." I always had a dream of the family we were creating, and I'm not sure why it's not a one-time thing, coming to accept reality.

Where is your wife going every night for a few hours at 9pm every night? Am I reading this correctly?

Can you two work out together instead of you going alone? It's give her the opportunity to have some of her best times of the day with you, if you two enjoy exercise, quiet time where she's not having to take care of the kids and stuff. From your post it sounds like "kid-free" time is very important to her. I have friends like this. My guess is that this type of person is like other wives, top two ENs are Conversation and Affection. What does she talk with her family about? I'm guessing some things that would make deposits would be to talk to her about kid-free time for the two of you that you're planning, like date nights, weekends away. You mentioned FC, that makes too. You can add conversation about stuff that shows her she's not on her own with the kids anymore. Fun FC time stuff. Family trips.

I don't know how old your kids are, but some FC things my H does that lets me know we are in a new phase, not the same-old same-old, is signing their backpacks, helping with homework, putting their activities on the calendar. Seeing his handwriting on the family calendar, not just mine, reminds me we are a team every day when I look at it. Your wife is likely of two minds on her decision, whether she tells you or not, and IMO you need to give her pro-marriage side as much ammunition as possible.

Do you two still sleep in the same room? Do you make the bed, and let her know you're doing this as affection? Does she still hug you goodbye? Can you take the opportunity and do something like telling her her hair smells good today, how soft her skin is, how beautiful she is? Again, giving her pro-M side ammunition, reminding and reconnecting her with her how much she likes your hugs, how you smell, how you feel in her arms, how handsome you are.

Does she work outside the home? If she is, would you be able to come home earlier for a time, pick up the kids, fix supper, put the dishes up after? Can you afford a housekeeper to come in? How can you make your home and life together attractive and inviting?

Quote
I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change.

No, BT, MBing isn't about finding the onus and fault. It's about sharing your best time together, creating a life that is special and meaningful for both of you, together. It really isn't work. I know I'm doing a great Plan A when it doesn't feel like work, feels like playing together, when I feel most like myself, enjoying my H getting a respite, getting to be himself, too.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2366276 05/02/10 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
BT, my kids love that Breakeven song, play it over and over. I like it, too, a sad, beautiful song. The line that really resonates with my is "What am I supposed to do when the best part of me was always you." I always had a dream of the family we were creating, and I'm not sure why it's not a one-time thing, coming to accept reality.

Where is your wife going every night for a few hours at 9pm every night? Am I reading this correctly?

She mostly goes to the beach or to a meadow or a drive or errands or something. She specifically says she doesnt want me to come wiht. We used to walk on the beach together all the time, especially when we still lived in CA. Now I am not wanted during this time.
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Can you two work out together instead of you going alone? It's give her the opportunity to have some of her best times of the day with you, if you two enjoy exercise, quiet time where she's not having to take care of the kids and stuff. From your post it sounds like "kid-free" time is very important to her.

I have asked to work out with her, and even as recent as 3-4 months ago, I was kinda working her out as a sort of coach and we would do it together. There were a couple incidents where I would forget to ask her to work out, or would be in the middle of something and callously chose to not do it when she asked, and added with everything else, at some point she stopped asking. It wasnt until later when she said she was going for a run one day and I asked if I could come and she said "No, I dont want to work out with you anymore."

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I have friends like this. My guess is that this type of person is like other wives, top two ENs are Conversation and Affection. What does she talk with her family about? I'm guessing some things that would make deposits would be to talk to her about kid-free time for the two of you that you're planning, like date nights, weekends away. You mentioned FC, that makes too. You can add conversation about stuff that shows her she's not on her own with the kids anymore. Fun FC time stuff. Family trips.

I really like this. I have no idea what she talks to her friends about. Her family is basically her mom and dad. Her dad is out of contact because he has no phone or internet. Her mom is a "recovering" addict who she still loves and cares for despite everything. But I do think that is a great idea about setting "dates" for us as a family. We went to the circus, though she planned most of that and it was fun. Perhaps I can do more on this. It is very hard with moving, new job, and learning stuff like this to find time, but I love my wife so I will do it somehow.


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I don't know how old your kids are,
15months, son, our first son would be 3 but he was born premature and passed away

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but some FC things my H does that lets me know we are in a new phase, not the same-old same-old, is signing their backpacks, helping with homework, putting their activities on the calendar. Seeing his handwriting on the family calendar, not just mine, reminds me we are a team every day when I look at it. Your wife is likely of two minds on her decision, whether she tells you or not, and IMO you need to give her pro-marriage side as much ammunition as possible.

Thank you so much for these ideas, will add them. We have a calender up now and I want to add a "bulletin board" for my reminders since I so often forget things like honey-do requests and stuff.


Quote
Do you two still sleep in the same room? Do you make the bed, and let her know you're doing this as affection? Does she still hug you goodbye? Can you take the opportunity and do something like telling her her hair smells good today, how soft her skin is, how beautiful she is? Again, giving her pro-M side ammunition, reminding and reconnecting her with her how much she likes your hugs, how you smell, how you feel in her arms, how handsome you are.

No we dont sleep in the same room as of a week ago. It was the day before our stuff got delivered to our new house, when she mentioned she didnt want to sleep with me once we had more than the air mattress. I agreed to go elsewhere. I am not sure what kind of stuff to stand up for and when to respect her wishes and let it be. I have been specifically asked not to give certain types of comments, and at other times, she has gotten a P.O.'d expression when I have given a compliment or made a remark, like it makes her mad or uncomfortable. But then, other times, when it seems like she isnt focusing on being mad at me, she will just smile and say thanks. I am trying to learn better how to "read" her and pick these more open times out and offer her what I can. I will keep working on it. She also avoids all physical contact with me, even accidental she will jump away like I am burning her or something. Oh gosh does that hurt when I see that. Tears my heart out. Yesterday during our March of Dimes walk, thinking about our first son, I think I would have given both my eyes for just one hug and moment of comfort to share between us.

Quote
Does she work outside the home? If she is, would you be able to come home earlier for a time, pick up the kids, fix supper, put the dishes up after? Can you afford a housekeeper to come in? How can you make your home and life together attractive and inviting?

She doesnt work out of the house yet. She has begun looking for work in the city 40 mins away that she says she wants to move in. I WANT her to be happy and do well, so I feel guilty when I am sometimes thankful the economy is so terrible and she is having trouble finding work. Man this is crazy. She tries to avoid me cooking her things, though I get to sneak them by occasionally. I DO pick up dishes and "housekeep" as soon as I see things. I know she notices the increased effort, but she still slams me when I forget something. I left the refried beans out last night from our sons supper and about 5 oz were left and they spoiled. That turned into, "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." and so on. I calmly said I am not stupid, I made a mistake, and she said "well you sure do stupid things," but seemed a little calmer since I didnt rise to the bait. I am not sure if there is a better way to have handled. I am so not in the habit of being a father. She is so far ahead of me as far as knowing his schedule and what he likes and stuff. I leave for work before his breakfast, so I have to ask her what hes having for supper since I dont know what Bfast or lunch was. I dont like it because I feel like she takes that to mean I am unfit to be a father. Maybe I can start asking what his bfast / lunch was when I call from work, then when I get home I can do supper and show how interested and competant I am.

Quote
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I have also tried to tell her ever since we got married that no one can MAKE her happy. She chooses to be happy. If something is preventing her from being happy, than she has to say something to let that person know, or she cannot expect anything to change. Once she tells them, then and ONLY then does the onus fall on them to decide whether her happiness is important enough for them to make the change.

No, BT, MBing isn't about finding the onus and fault. It's about sharing your best time together, creating a life that is special and meaningful for both of you, together. It really isn't work. I know I'm doing a great Plan A when it doesn't feel like work, feels like playing together, when I feel most like myself, enjoying my H getting a respite, getting to be himself, too.

I think I understand that, but waht I was trying to say was that I cant do those things that make her happy if she doesnt tell me something is making her unhappy. As such, no one can just magic pill make her happy, she has to communicate what she needs and offer the other person the chance to fulfill those. I cant read her mind and just KNOW what to do. I can slowly figure things out and I am learning to do it to an extent, but something like not liking the way I make her sandwiches, I cant guess that unless she says something. I didnt mean to sound like I was trying to assign blame. I think we are both to blame, and for the sake of eachother, our child, and my own selfish needs (which I am not ashamed of having) we both deserve to really give this a chance. I know I am willing to work very hard on this.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/02/10 11:14 AM.

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BTinTrouble #2366336 05/02/10 01:58 PM
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A new problem / issue.

I am rereading Q/A's and part of the book etc.

First: on the article about how to pull your partner out of a state of withdrawal, he says "stop making her unhappy. She wont let you meet her needs until she can put defenses down and that wont happen till she feels safe."

So... what am I doing tht makes her not feel safe? I honestly dont know and will have to think a lot about it. I have some ideas to start with I think. But this all makes that line of talking with her where I have to choose whether to confront something or not that much harder to me to figure out.

Second: Emotional Infidelity. One of the first responses was "is she having an affair?" I said no, no physical affairs, but while I still believe that, rereading the part about emotional affairs I think is possible. During the 4 months we stayed in a place till we got our house, another of the "roommates" was a ~60yr old guy that I also work with. He is a nice guy and enjoys watching TV. Since I was playing games, and my wife watches TV, they would hang out. In addition, for a while my work schedule was weird, so he would have a day off while I was working, and they would hang out all day. Now she considers the guy a friend, even I consider him a friend and a decent guy. However, they talk frequently, he has stayed over, and she has mentioned since he is unhappy staying in the place we had just left, she wanted to ask him to be her roommate to save costs. They both asked me if I would throw a fit about it, and I said no it seemed fine to me.

Now it doesnt. Now that I think about it, she wasnt really "adamant" about her leaving until the last couple months, and I wonder if it was due to having some of her Emotional Needs being met by this guy. I would bet my life there is no physical intimacy going on, but I know they share a lot of thier feelings and stuff. I already am pretty sure the need for Conversation is one of my wifes major needs, and she seems to turn to him now for that need.

Does this sound like an affair? Am I wrong to now not be comfortable with them living together? Do I have a right to tell her that she shouldnt be such good friends with him since it was emotional infidelity? I would love to hear any other viewpoints so maybe I can get a new angle to work on this helps me make sense of it.

Thanks to any and all of you that are bothering to work through my walls of text and leave thoughts. I really appreciate it a lot!


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BTinTrouble #2366542 05/02/10 11:11 PM
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Couple things tonight:

We were making dinner and have a guest over.

She asked how long the pork would take, and I said 15 mins in the oven. (W-wife, M-me)
W: (very demanding) WHAT?!? YOU ARE GOING TO COOK IT ON THE GRILL!!
(silence)
M: (sarcastic tone) fine, YES MA'AM!!
W: (flippant) fine, do whatever you want, I dont even care.
M: (slightly more calm) No, you obviously do care or you wouldnt have said anything. Thank you for letting me know what you want, I will go start the grill I guess
W: No, make it in the oven, I dont even care.
(this went back and forth, till our friend said something about "good lord you 2!" and laughed. I left the room to start the grill, came inside and the friend was in the bathroom)
M: I am sorry, I dont want to fight. I shouldnt have answered you sarcastically like that, I am sorry.
W: Its ok, just dont teach our son that.
M: Ok. I also dont appreciate it when you order me around, I wish you wouldnt do that.
(short silence)
W: (calmly) Would you mind cooking it on the grill?
M: No, I dont mind the grill, I just havent done it in a while and dont want to burn it or anything, and the grill's been acting up since the move so I am not sure if I will be able to get it to work. I will try.
W: Oh, well ok then, well if it doesnt work I am sure it will be fine in the oven too.
M: Ok

This was huge. It was a disastrous opening with my initial response that I regretted as soon as it left my mouth. I was so pissed at what I percieved as teh PRESUMPTUOUSNESS of her tone. But after I left and came back, the follow through and resolution just felt so good. I hope we can learn to resolve all conflicts like that where we both are happy and respect eachother.


Second: We watched Time Travelers Wife after dinner.
I cant what specifically touched me, but I had a definate reaction to it and was trying not to show it to our guest and her. She noticed and said "You are either falling asleep or crying." (silence) "Are you awake" (I nodded). Our guest got up for the bathroom and I got up to go to the sink. She asked me what I liked about the movie. I wish so badly that I would have just answered. I was choked up wasnt sure words would have come out and I didnt want our guest to show up in the middle of a "moment" so I asked if we could please talk about it tomorrow? She actually smiled and said "sure." (short silence) I said as I left the room, "I liked that they werent perfect." She said good night to me, which hasnt been a norm for the last few weeks, so I really appreciated it.

I am so excited for tomorrow. Its MONDAY! That means places might be open and a PERSON might answer when I call them. I might be able to get some things DONE!!




Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2366569 05/03/10 06:06 AM
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BT, you asked what you can do, and you mentioned above the AOs. Who wants to live with a tyrant? How about reading the article on AOs, and going to your wife and telling her you see that this is harmful behavior, you're sorry for having indulged in it, and will make amends by eliminating it?

I'm not sure what to say about your wife being gone for hours every night, and this guy you all were living with, that she wants to live with once you're separated. It's like a chicken-or-egg thing, you sound like you don't have the information to know whether your wife's attitude about your M is from comparing with this or some other guy or not. Have other folks suggested you do some snooping? What do you think?

You mentioned she made a comment "omg, how stupid can you be, just throwing money away." BT, how can you nip these in the bud, because that is like the the opposite of the warm inviting home you're trying to create, where you two are both at your best? Some folks respond to sympathy, "oh, wow, it sounds like there's really something wromng, what's the matter?" It's like she's not mad about the beans, but what they remind her of, and she's not confident that you want to hear her perspective yet, so she complains about trivial stuff instead. If it's beans on the counter, maybe it's a fear of finincial security? If you can get the dialogue going, I think that would be easier than saying, "well, if you won't tell me in a way that's easy for me to hear, then I won't know and that's it." Not the all or nothing, finding the middle ground.

What do you think about calling the Harleys? I saw the post their radio show comes back on today. Have you read the article, Why Women Leave Men?


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2367136 05/03/10 08:13 PM
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Yes I read the article why Women Leave Men. I showed it to her and she read it. She thinks his statements about the woman are dead on.

But she doesnt think the rest applies.

You might be right about teh complaints of trivial things having a different reason. I dont know. I have done the "I am sorry for the things I have done." I told her again tonight. She says "OK" but I get the idea that she still doesnt trust me. I can understand that, but I am working on things and doing my best.

I am 100% for calling the Harley's. I am not rich, but compared to her and where we are going, the money is nothing. As long as my baby boy is taken care of and she is taken care of I dont need anything else for me.

I asked her about it. I was using the "radical honesty" and told her that its a marraige and relationship focused counseling service that is done over the phone so that we dont have to leave. She asked if it costs money. I said yes. She said well that seems dumb since we have a free appointment with a counselor on base. I told her that I would probably do the phone therapist either way if nothing else than for me, but am willing to "try" the free one before calling. I also said that if I do call them I would like it if she joined me on the call. She gave a non-commital response.

I am having trouble communicating what I am feeling, being honest about it, and trying to really connect with her. I keep analyzing things and thinking when I should be just listening and understanding. It is very hard to break this habit. I was explaining POJA to her tonight because she was saying after reading teh "why women leave men" she thought POJA was stupid and didnt apply to us. I meant to ask her what she meant and why she felt that way, and what she was feeling, but she asked me a question, and before I know it I was basically lecturing her on what it meant and she wasnt really listening because (I assume) she is tired of being lectured at. I wasnt mean about it, didnt raise my voice or anything, but it was another one way conversation of me telling her she is wrong.

I dont want to do that anymore. I am having trouble stopping. We talk about things so often, and always have and never get to the feelings and the connections.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

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