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BTinTrouble #2367137 05/03/10 08:18 PM
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Is it Independant Behavior if I want us to recover from this, if I want us to be happy again, and I do things that I think will help with that, even though she doesnt want it right now, or possibly ever?

Is it dishonesty if I tell her that a counselor might help us communicate better without fighting so that we CAN be friends like she says she wants, even though I REALLY mostly want to go to counseling with her so that she can see that we COULD be happy, and to help me BE better so I can be someone she wants to be around? I know that if we reach that point, then we will be communicating better and be freiends, but it feels wrong.

I told her tonight the "other" reason I want to go to counseling, just on the off chance she changes her mind I want to be someone worth sticking around for. She kinda smirked but didnt say anything.

So lost and confused.


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BTinTrouble #2367153 05/03/10 08:38 PM
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"What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you."

I just heard that song for the first time the other night, and I have to say that my first reaction to that line was NOT like NED's. I think it betrays the singer's emotional immaturity and neediness. That line alone explains why the girl he laments left for someone better. I wanted to tell that pathetic singer to go get his own life! (Ok, that was NOT my most compassionate moment, but honest!)

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I keep analyzing things and thinking when I should be just listening and understanding.

I do this too. And I too have been working on it. Analyzing is very much a DJ, because I can't really KNOW. Instead, focus on the facts, and my feelings about the facts. And when in doubt, keep my mouth shut and ears open.



BTinTrouble #2367163 05/03/10 09:00 PM
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A few thoughts after reading through.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Recreational Companionship - We sort of get this because we take our son out for things. I try to talk to her while we are out and try to stay pleasant as well as try to make the activities fun. She does not want to excercise with me or generally acompany me on anything at this point.

This is not RC. It must be done with undivided attention. Just clarifying. This is more family commitment.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Honesty and Openness - I am not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. Looking for ideas.

No, your comment about thinking she is being incredibly selfish is not O&H. It is a DJ.

However, saying to us that you don�t respect her ability to make her own decisions is HUGE honesty on your part. Kudos to you for this self-awareness. Turn it around and that says that you acknowledge that you are disrespectful of her ability to make her own decisions. Even if you don�t say it, trust me she knows by your tone and past actions. This is probably one reason she feels �unsafe� You can change this about yourself. However, if you change this about yourself simply for her benefit she will see right through it, not trust it, and you will likely be very disappointed, because she probably has 10 other reasons why she feels unsafe around you, most of which she probably isn�t aware of. And remember it is NOT your job to make her aware. That�s her side of the street not yours.

However, if you change this disrespectful attitude of yours because you now realize it�s wrong and goes against your own code of behavior, regardless of how she reacts or responds, there�s a good chance that change will be trusted. It probably will not be enough. Just one small pebble in the brook.

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky)

Would you talk to my husband, please? smile

Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Selfish Demands - I dont think I have had a problem with this. I cannot recall a time that I have told her "do this because I want it, I dont care if you dont want it." This perception may be due to a misunderstanding on what Selfish Demands are. I believe I am much more guilty of Independant Behavior, rather than selfish demands. I dont demand that she do something, I just do what I want...

I bet you don�t make thoughtful requests either, though. My husband (who sounds a bit like you, but unwilling to give up IB) rarely makes selfish demands. However, he does not request much from me either. DJ alert . . . I believe it is because he is afraid that if he makes a request of me, I will retaliate by making requests of HIM. Actually, I would be thrilled if he would make requests of me, and complaints too for that matter, because when he does, I take such things VERY seriously.



Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do.

This is exactly what POJA is. Ground rules. Don�t do anything that you can�t both agree to enthusiastically. Start with small things together (like grocery shopping). In my case, I am only holding myself to POJA. I use it as my own personal boundary against sacrificing me for marriage, or asking my husband to sacrifice for me. What my husband chooses to do when we negotiate and problem solve is his business, and if he chooses IB, I accept it, dislike it, let him know, and then it�s his problem, not mine.


BTinTrouble #2367165 05/03/10 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Emotional Infidelity. One of the first responses was "is she having an affair?" I said no, no physical affairs, but while I still believe that, rereading the part about emotional affairs I think is possible. During the 4 months we stayed in a place till we got our house, another of the "roommates" was a ~60yr old guy that I also work with. He is a nice guy and enjoys watching TV. Since I was playing games, and my wife watches TV, they would hang out. In addition, for a while my work schedule was weird, so he would have a day off while I was working, and they would hang out all day. Now she considers the guy a friend, even I consider him a friend and a decent guy. However, they talk frequently, he has stayed over, and she has mentioned since he is unhappy staying in the place we had just left, she wanted to ask him to be her roommate to save costs. They both asked me if I would throw a fit about it, and I said no it seemed fine to me.

Now it doesnt. Now that I think about it, she wasnt really "adamant" about her leaving until the last couple months, and I wonder if it was due to having some of her Emotional Needs being met by this guy. I would bet my life there is no physical intimacy going on, but I know they share a lot of thier feelings and stuff. I already am pretty sure the need for Conversation is one of my wifes major needs, and she seems to turn to him now for that need.

Does this sound like an affair? Am I wrong to now not be comfortable with them living together? Do I have a right to tell her that she shouldnt be such good friends with him since it was emotional infidelity? I would love to hear any other viewpoints so maybe I can get a new angle to work on this helps me make sense of it.

Thanks to any and all of you that are bothering to work through my walls of text and leave thoughts. I really appreciate it a lot!

Well, since you would be the "betrayed spouse" you are the one who gets to decide whether it is emotionaly infidelity or not. If you think it is, then it is. Her needs ARE being met by a male friend. MB believes that there is aboslutely no place for friends of the opposite sex in marriage. At all.
You ought to have this thread move to the survviving an affair board. Also, read up on Mark 1952. He could have a lot of very wise advice for you with regard to this. I'll send a shout out to him to come visit your thread.

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I am reading through these responses. I need to read them again... thanks so much...


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Originally Posted by thinkinitthru66
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"What am I gonna do when the best part of me was always you."

I think it betrays the singer's emotional immaturity and neediness.

I think its a great example of the "Why Women Leave Men." She fell out of love due to neglect, and now he is hurting because he wasnt aware of any problem due to his neglecting her. I think this guy could learn a lot from this site, but his song is basically where I was about 3 weeks ago... so it resonates. I feel like I could give him an idea on "what hes supposed to do..."

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Analyzing is very much a DJ, because I can't really KNOW. Instead, focus on the facts, and my feelings about the facts. And when in doubt, keep my mouth shut and ears open.

This summed it up nicely, I like it. It IS a DJ. I hadnt realized that.

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No, your comment about thinking she is being incredibly selfish is not O&H. It is a DJ.

However, saying to us that you don�t respect her ability to make her own decisions is HUGE honesty on your part. .... This is probably one reason she feels �unsafe� You can change this about yourself. However, if you change this about yourself simply for her benefit she will see right through it, not trust it, and you will likely be very disappointed, because she probably has 10 other reasons why she feels unsafe around you, most of which she probably isn�t aware of. And remember it is NOT your job to make her aware. That�s her side of the street not yours.

However, if you change this disrespectful attitude of yours because you now realize it�s wrong and goes against your own code of behavior, regardless of how she reacts or responds, there�s a good chance that change will be trusted.

This is spot on. Its a conclusion I came to her and told her about. That many of these things I am working on, its not just her that is annoyed by it. My not respecting other peoples ability to make their own decisions because I am think I am so much better REALLY PISSES PEOPLE OFF. It also irritates me off, because I dont REALLY think I should make everyones decisions for them. So yes, its a thing I want to work on for me.

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This is exactly what POJA is. ... In my case, I am only holding myself to POJA. I use it as my own personal boundary against sacrificing me for marriage, or asking my husband to sacrifice for me. What my husband chooses to do when we negotiate and problem solve is his business, and if he chooses IB, I accept it, dislike it, let him know, and then it�s his problem, not mine.

I need to find a way to your zen. I can handle the sticking to POJA alone I think, with time developing it as a habit, but the idea of "what she does is her business" is terrifying. This is my DJ coming back to mess me up I think. If "what she does" is choose to adhere to POJA, and work to fix this, then fine by me, but if she doesnt and still wants to leave and not try, to me that doesnt make sense and I dont know how to handle it. Its like meeting a guy who has been in the desert stranded for 3 days on the cusp of death, offering him water, and he says "no I'm good." I would think that guy is just insane or delusional or not thinking "right." So do I not think she is thinking right? Who am I to decide what she is allowed to think? So how do I share myself, adhere to POJA, and then what if she doesnt? You said accept it, tell him, and then its his problem. What do you do after that?

I need to learn how to LET GO. I am not her puppet master. No wonder she feels controlled and stifled. Like she hasnt been allowed to grow. How do I learn to accept it?

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/03/10 10:07 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2367197 05/03/10 10:44 PM
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My zen? That's funny smile I'm so NOT zen most of the time. I do a lot of pity partying.

However, the nice thing about character defects is that if I can spot it in someone else, chances are it's also one of my own character defects which is hidden from my awareness. Sometime when you are bored you should make a list of all the things about your wife that irritate the heck out of you. Then try to stop doing those things yourself and see what happens smile

You are right on track. You have to learn how to let go and learn to accept. For me, saying the serenity prayer helps. "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference." Yes, it is cliche. But the only thing you CAN change is yourself. If you attempt to change other people, places and things, you will find yourself becoming as crazy as that nut job in the desert refusing water.

Sometimes we prefer to spend our energy spinning our wheels tryint to change what we can't, because deep down we are afraid of what will happen when we put that same energy into changing what we can - ourselves.

You are not responspible for the outcome, only the effort. Reminding myself of this helps me to let go.

Practicing, making mistakes, doing better next time. That's how we learn. It does not happen overnight. Especially acceptance. Today, I can accept my husband's IB and irritating traits. Tomorrow, I may not. Some days are better than others. I do my best. He can choose to accept THAT, or not.

I'm really sorry to hear about your premature son. I have several friends who've had micro-premies. What an ache your wife and you must both have. I felt for you when you talked about the March of Dimes thing and just wanting a hug from her.

It is OK to ask your wife for a hug. I know it is terrifying. You're afraid of her rejection. I know, I have avoided asking for things all of my life because of that fear. Asking for what we want is a humbling experience, because it means admitting that I am imperfect and can't do it all. It means shedding the mask. And it means being vulnerable. But asking is also power, good power. We can choose to be deflated by a rejection, or choose to not take it personally and give others the dignity of their own choice, even if it is a callous, mean, insensitive choice. It's theirs, let them own it. By not asking, you are robbing her of the chance to say yes or no, and robbing her of a type of dignity and respect.

OK, I'm done for the evening. You're doing fine. Get some help from the SAA folks. They will know how to handle this "friend." I have not doubt both he and your wife have innocent intentions, but that's usually how it starts. Yes, your wife may be pissed in the short term if you ask her to cut this person out of your lives, if you decide to take a stand for your marriage. I've done some lurking on the affair boards and you could be in for a rough road ahead.


BTinTrouble #2367204 05/03/10 11:10 PM
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BT,

Think asked me to stop by and look at your thread. I actually looked at it before but thought you had some folks helping you out that could get you going in the right direction and because my job now pretty much prevents me from getting much MB time in during the day, I figured I'd let somebody else try to help you out. But since Think called me to come have a look and because I'm here reading, I will give you a couple bits of advice.

First of all, your wife absolutely IS having an affair. She might not even think of it that way because she feels that she hasn't crossed any lines yet. The thing is that an affair isn't really a line that gets crossed it is really more of a process that takes place like turning off the main highway and heading down a road to some town where the city limits are still quite some distance off. The thing is that the road is going there and so is anyone that is on that road.

Many who have an affair, in my opinion more women than men though I have no evidence for it right now, start down that road without ever realizing that it is where the road is taking them. Since they aren't really sexually attracted to the soon to be affair partner they feel that there is nothing beyond friendship that is taking place.

The thing is that once a person is allowed to meet any of our emotional needs for us, they begin to make deposits into our love bank and without even realizing it we start to crave the feelings that we get when with that person.

Now especially if she feels that there is no physical attraction involved your wife probably doesn't see any problems with having a relationship with some guy that is 60 years old. After all, she tells herself, it isn't like she is lusting after his body for sex or anything.

The problem comes from the fact that an unfair comparison is taking place, She is comparing you with all the known faults, maybe years of feeling that you didn't recognize the things she wanted from you etc with some guy that is simply talking to her and sharing some sort of emotional connection. Since she doesn't really know much about him and doesn't ever have to deal with his "dark side" where he might have a bad day or get angry and start yelling (he has nothing invested in a relationship with her and so has no reason to protect his territory since it isn't his to begin with) she sort of fills in the gaps with things she imagines.

That means that you aren't competing against a 60 year old man but against a brand new fantasy that has no bad history, only pure romantic nonsense.

Now if you were to ask me if your wife is wanting to run off with this guy and live happily ever after I would have to answer that I do not believe that to be the case. But what has happened is that your wife has created this fantasy that real life can't hope to compete with and so she isn't comparing you to him at all but to some ideal that she has created. The part of this that is so dangerous is that if this guy is attracted to her and has much in the tank at all (trust me when I say that 60 doesn't mean dead, I'm only two years from that myself) and so he might be highly attracted to your wife and for him that might be enough to get him to keep feeding her whatever she needs in order to keep the fantasy growing.

Like I said, right now she isn't really planning to marry this guy. She is however using what she is getting from him in the way of having her ENs met to dismantle her connection to you. She is having feelings for him even without sexual attraction and to her this is telling her that she is no longer attracted to you and so can't possibly be in love with you any more. So for her this is a place to begin her journey for the real true love of her life, since she has no discounted you as being that person.

So that is the bad news...

The good news is that she fell in love with you before and she can fall in love with you all over again. You have given a lot of reasons why you can't meet her ENs for her. It might not have been unmet ENs as much as Love Busters that did the damage in the first place, but you still need to try to meet her ENs in any way that she allows.

You stand a lot better chance of getting her to let you meet her ENs if you stop trying to convince her to stay with you all together and work instead at becoming the man she fell in love with before and the man she can fall in love with again.

Do not fear losing her, BT. She is already planning to leave. Concentrate on doing things that will give her a reason to stay and give up on trying to find a way to get her to stay. I hope you understood that. You can't make her stay. You need to give her a reason to stay and work on the marriage and when I say give her a reason, I am not talking about reasoning with her and trying to convince her. You can't fix the relationship in order to save it and must save it first if you hope to fix it. Don't try to educate her. Don't ry to convince her. Don't try to force her to see the light. Don't try to explain it to her...

Just do a couple of focused and specific things...

1) Meet whatever ENs she allows you to meet as often and as graciously as you can.
2) Identify any Love Buster behavior in yourself and kill it dead, bury it and set it on fire. Destroy love busters and rid your life of them.

Any time she spends with you has to be the most enjoyable part of her life. Arguing will not accomplish that so simply do not argue...even if she starts it, don't argue with her.

If you can afford to talk to Steve Harley, call and make an appointment...Not next week, do it ASAP. If you can't afford it then at least get Surviving An Affair. Either buy it or check it out at the library. (That is where I got a copy to read when I first got here.)

Snoop like the CIA to figure out how far this relationship with the 60 year old has gone. Cell phone records, phone records, emails, SMS (test messages) can all show a pattern. Also keep an open mind as to the possibility that it is actually someone else that is the real problem right now, though if for no other reason that the danger of allowing another man to live in your home makes me think he is at least the trigger to the problem if not the specific affair partner of her dreams...


Once you know for sure what is going on, blow the whistle on it without warning. People will help you get the idea of exposure down and you will of course resist it claiming to lack evidence, that exposure targets will side with her and them and that if you expose this you will make things worse...

Been there, done that, heard it all before...You aren't going to come up with anything new so just skip it and work on a list of who you might expose the affair to. You don't need iron-clad proof or even proof that will hold up in court. All you need is enough to convince yourself that your wife is cheating on you. Look for it, find it and then expose what you know is true to anyone who might be able to make it harder to have an affair than to work on the marriage.

Be aware that when you finally do expose the affair, she will tell you that you have blown any chance that she will ever love you ever again. She will say that she was thinking about working on the marriage but now you have blown it and it is your fault that she hates you and...

Just simply ignore it...

Read up on Plan A. Read the articles, the Q&A columns about infidelity, the book SAA, anything people point you to. Knowledge is your best friend right now. The more you can learn about combating infidelity the better you can fight. Remember that your fight is with a fantasy, the affair itself and not your wife. It also helps to imagine that the person you see that looks like your wife is really an alien who has kidnapped her and replaced her with a clone programmed to hurt you and try to destroy your marriage and rob you of your will to fight for your wife.

Read the first couple pages of my "Musings" thread linked in my sig line. If you haven't yet read them, go to the Notable Posts forum and read WAT's Quick Start Guide and Longhorn's thread for newly betrayed spouses.

Your situation is not hopeless, BT. Stop trying to convince yourself that it is and do something to stop the bleeding. You can give up without a fight if you want to but if you want to fight then train, learn and fight remembering that you need to fight the affair and not your wife or even the other man. You need to fight the fantasy and you can do that most effectively by offering her something that is better than the fantasy because she knows it is real. Make being with you a better option than being with OM or ANY OM because YOU are the man she can't live without.

You have NO control over anything she does, That means NONE, Nada, zip, zilch, zero, nothing, not one tiny little bit... Don't even try to change her mind or her heart or her actions or her words. Focus on what you have control over. That would be what YOU do, BT. That is all you can predetermine the outcome of for any actions you might choose. Choose only actions that make her see you as her hero and avoid anything that makes her see you as her enemy.

Fight the affair by making the affair harder and working on the marriage easier. Fight the affair by making yourself the best BT that has ever been and let her see that you are him. Fix yourself to save your marriage and if you save it worry about fixing the marriage once you know you have it back

Bull riding is eight seconds (if you hang on that long)of total terror usually followed by a sudden <THUD> when you hit the ground. Fighting an affair by using Plan A is going to be just as terrifying, just as dangerous, just as hard and last a lot longer. So mount up, wrap up and git 'er done. Cowboy up!

Nobody can give you the magic words because there aren't any. No one will hand you a magic bullet because magic has nothing to do with it. You stand a chance of pulling this off if you do everything right. If you do nothing you stand no chance at all.

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters
Identify your enemy by snooping and attack the affair by exposing it to anyone who might tell her or him to stop this stupid teenage actions and get real.

My posts aren't all this length.
Most of 'em are longer...

Mark

Mark1952 #2367215 05/03/10 11:38 PM
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book marking this one !!! good job mark !


Click to reveal.. (myinfo)
Me 38 / H 39 (Haha he is older than me!)
Known 24yrs / Married 18yrs
1 DD 23yrs
Too many D Days to count (King of Trickle Truth)
We both have agreed to 100% Commitment to Make this work or die trying !



My Story

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

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Mark,

I graciously thank you for this, will be printing it out and reading it again when I feel like crap and need a kick in the rear to move me.

You are right, the idea of this OM and exposing it is just unbelievably terrifying. If they never do anything with it, can I still expose it as an affair, even if they "only" meet EN's? I know a couple people I can tell that too that she values. That I could dang near copy paste your explanation or the one in QnA Letters and explain it like that and it would go through. I dont feel like I could prove it "in court" though, but maybe I dont have to?


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BTinTrouble #2367257 05/04/10 07:02 AM
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BT,

I suggest that you click on <Notify> and ask the mods to move this to SAA.

Study Plan A so you know what you need to do and what you need to expect. Then develop a PLAN and don't just flounder around. Then follow your PLAN instead of just floundering around in response to what she does.

Mark

Mark1952 #2367703 05/04/10 05:33 PM
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ok, I am halfway through the Infidelity QnA's. I noticed that the plans are on the bottom.

In good news, her dad is getting a phone and called her from another. She told me he told her that moving and starting a new job and all the other stresses combined with marraige stresses isnt a very good recipe for making positive changes, and that maybe we are settled she should give it a little time to see. She told him that she "gave him a chance and he didnt do it" but.... she only told him that her decision was final as far as moving out at least to spend a little time on her own.

Now, this is interesting, because she has told me that it is final as far never being together again. So she tells her dad something different, who she trusts. I cant read her mind, but that is a sign to me that she is not so sure of her choice. I am hoping its because she is noticing noticing my commitment.

Regardless, I felt so proud of her today. I realized what several people have already said and it clicked. She is protecting herself. For the whole time we have been married she nearly always put up with things she didnt like, without complaining. She sacrificed her wants because she thought that would make us happy. Now she is learning that its ok to have wants and have them filled. She has come to me with "I wish you would do THIS," with a sort of tone that says she expects this to be an issue or a fight and that I am not going to support her. The reality is I want her to be happy, and while I have learned that I should not sacrifice myself for her happiness, if I can happily give her something she needs, than we both win, and when she saw me say "ok" and do it, her jaw kinda dropped, then she closed her mouth, turned to the side, and head tilted to the side watching me out of the corner all thoughtfully.

She is so beautiful. I cant believe how I neglected her, but that time is over.


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BTinTrouble #2367831 05/04/10 08:35 PM
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Plan A and B in action:

So, I used to play computer games a lot. A LOT. It was an independant behavior, often times selfish demand (why cant you just leave me alone, I am busy), disrespectful judgement (I think you just wait till I am busy to ask me to do things), angry outburst (see SD statement, different tone), and, well you can see it.

My wife, without knowing, used Plan A and B on me.

Plan A - she told me I wasnt being a part of her and my sons life, and I needed to make time for them, suggesting maybe instead of playing games I could try, you know, living life. It escalated from there, since I didnt stop, though I said I would play less, or make time for her, and so on, and she escalated it, making her displeasure known.

Then, she decided it wasnt working and went to Plan B. She cut me out of her life emotionally. I missed her. I am not sure if I quit all games before I noticed this, or if I quit, and then with all the free time, THEN noticed that she wasnt emotionally there. Either way, its pretty much Plan B.

Only problem for me is... she wasnt using them with the intent of saving our marriage, she using them to protect herself, which is her right. So now that I "got the messege," it might be too late.

This is not a pity party, just a thought I had after reading about the handling infidelity all day today... it can work any time your spouse is "cheating" on you with anything else. If they are avoiding emotions and thereby avoiding fulfilling your needs by playing a game alone instead of conversing, being affectionate, family commitments, or recreational activities together, well... that game, or activity, is the OM or OW in an Emotional Affair.

I remember going through "withdrawal" with all my free time when I quit. I questioned whether the "fun" I had was really less important than other things in my life. Luckily I realized immediately that the temporary good feeling I gained by avoiding my emotions and playing a game did not compare to the feelings of acceptance and fulfillment my marriage had been a source of.

Is this completely misinterpreting it? Is it possible to have an emotional affair with, say, hackeysack? or reading books? or any other sort of activity that doesnt even involve another person?


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BTinTrouble #2368486 05/05/10 06:11 PM
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BT,

I wouldn't say it is an EA, but it certainly can be an addiction, which is really what an affair is all about. The person in an affair becomes addicted to the affair partner, in exactly the same way they can become addicted to anything.

Anything that stimulates our pleasure/reward center in our brain causes massive amounts of chemicals to be released that triggers the release of neurotransmitters. These neurotransmitters provide us with a bunch of emotional responses including a sort of euphoria (dopamine), well being (serotonin) and other feelings including connectedness (vasopressin) and bonding (oxytocin). The two biggies as far as addiction are concerned are dopamine and serotonin and the precursor of dopamine, PEA.

So while not really a case of falling in love with a game, the chemicals involved are actually the same ones. In any kind of affair or in fact in any relationship that involves sexual attraction as well, the sexual stimulus in both men and women is provided by testosterone. Typically an affair, even one that has no physical component, includes sexual attraction, but beyond that, an affair (or the feeling of romantic love) and any other addiction is chemically nearly identical.

Time to get a plan together, BT. First you need to identify what her top Emotional Needs might be. Typically women have in their top ENs Conversation, Affection, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Honesty/Openness. While some might have some of the ones typically indicated by men as top ENs, it can safely be assumed that two of the top 5 will be Conversation and Affection.

Based on what you said your wife stated in the past, I would focus on trying to come up with a plan to attempt to meet Conversation, Affection and Family Commitment, though Honesty/Openness should not be far from your mind either.

The easy way out would be to point to Recreational Companionship as the key, but it is more likely that she has other ENs that mean more to her than having a good time with a friend and typically, RC falls under the general list of a man's most important ENs. Not saying it can't happen, but her efforts to get you to spend time with her more likely indicate her need for you to spend time with the family and her, talking honestly and openly about life in general and your lives to be more specific.

If you can swing it, calling the coaching center to talk to Steve or Jennifer will net you more rapid return than simply reading and posting here on the forums. Now I put together a Plan A by reading here and in the books and talking to someone who had been through Dr Harley's material in the past, though honestly, he wasn't all that much of an encouragement to keep plugging along. That is what the forums can give you, BTW, is the encouragement you need to keep going in the face of what appears to be failure.

If you do two things, and concentrate on just those two things, you stand a better chance of saving your marriage than by trying to react to whatever she might do in response to any given action on your part. Those two things boil down to this: 1) Meet her Emotional Needs & 2) Avoid all Love busters.

But you also need to snoop in order to rule out that she might be having an affair of any kind. Keep in mind that people leave their spouse over emotional affairs as often as physical ones. The relationship suffers that same decline and the same detrimental comparisons to a fantasy involving someone that is only known as an online personality as if the person lived across the street and was sneaking into your house 5 minutes after you left for work in the morning and staying all day.

Whether trying to win back a spouse who is having an affair or simply one who is in a sate of Withdrawal, the steps are really the same; meet her ENs, and avoid Love Busters. If there is an affair an additional step is also needed, that of making the affair less attractive than the marriage. This is done by exposing the affair to anyone who might have influence over either of the affair partners and by doing other things that make the affair harder to continue than ending it.

But if there is no affair, then the problem is simply that she has fallen out of love with you. The good news is that falling in love with you again is a very real possibility if you can become the man she wants to fall in love with. To that end...

Meet her ENs
Avoid Love Busters.

Mark

Mark1952 #2368627 05/05/10 09:49 PM
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I didnt know that about all the specific chemicals, but its interesting to know that they are basically the same minus the sexual attraction (testosterone).

As for my plan, thats about it right there. I am trying to meet EN's and stomp out LB's. I have my earlier post where I have them all listed out and my "plan" or "progress" with them. I am using that post and will probably update it soon, to kinda keep tabs on and track myself for now.

I have a question though.

With this possibility of an EA and exposing it. I want to be honest and open with her. I dont want to hide things from her. I dont feel right with the idea of exposing her without telling her how I feel first. I think since I gave them the "ok" to hang out, I should at least state that I am not ok with it before accusing anyone of an EA.

Early on in their friends (her and the OM) she would ask if I was ok with her sitting on the couch with him watching tv, or going to the store together. At the time I reasoned that I would look like an insecure and untrusting control freak if I didnt let her have her 1 friend, so I said sure.

What I REALLY did was avoid telling her my feelings. What I really did was sacrifice myself and lie to her to "make her happy" because of my DJ of her ability to hear my true feelings and handle them. What I REALLY did was throw away an opportunity to show her how much I love her by telling her how I felt and offering to be the one that went to the store with her or sat on the couch and watched TV with her.

So you mentioned calling the Harley's.

I want to, I will probably do it regardless and have told her. However, she already agreed to go with me to an MC (appointment on Monday, 10 May) and she suggested we go to the "free" (we dont have to pay anything out of pocket) one first. I agreed that its worth a try, though I am anxious and afraid we might get a "divorce" counselor.

However, a main reason I agreed was becuase I recognized myself and what I was doing. I am comfortable with the Harley's because I have been on this site and it makes sense. I know that I will be asked to do a lot of work and make a lot of changes and it will be hard, but since I can anticipate this, I still feel some control.

It is very hard for me to give up control. It makes me feel anxious afraid and insecure.

So going to this "free" MC and not knowing anything about it, while she does the same I think kinda shows a trust. My wife is willing to give up the control and go to this stranger. The only reason I should feel insecure and afraid is if I really believed that my wife wasnt intelligent enough to be able to also recognize if the counselor was doing more harm than good. I dont. So I will go with an open mind and find the positives. I can be happy that she is going with me at all. I still would rather have a Marraige Coach than a Counselor, but who knows what we will get.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/05/10 09:54 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2370056 05/07/10 09:47 PM
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Update on ENs' LBs' and my plan:

Here is what I am working on right now:

EMOTIONAL NEEDS (*** - things I am specifically working on or am able to work on)

Affection - I cannot really work on this in many ways since she has told me specifically to not touch her or show affection. I picked her wild flowers today on my way home from work. Also have a mothers day "mother" locket with our family laser etched into it.

Sexual Fufillment - Completely not allowed to even attempt to fulfill this one. Says she is disgusted by me, even though she still thinks physically I am very attractive.

***Conversation - Having trouble with my habits. I am getting better at listening, but I am still debating a lot and not negotiating. She gets very frustrated. Also, I am having a LOT of trouble thinking of things to talk about BESIDES us, which is obviously NOT happy and therefore does not meet EN's

***Recreational Companionship - Ok, so we dont really get any of this. I have attempted to watch TV with her, where we talk during commercials about the show. I really dislike TV for the most part, but am willing to watch some to interact with her. I always have KINDA an idea whats going on in her shows, and she seems to enjoy "catching me up" on whats been going on. However, I dont know if this is considered RC.

***Honesty and Openness - I am still not having a problem with honesty part, but the openness part I am still not sure about. I feel like if I told her some things I think and feel (like that I think she is being incredibly selfish by choosing to end our marraige rather than give it a serious try) then she would leave. I guess this shows a lack of faith in her and a lack of respect for her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner, but I guess I DONT respect her ability to make her own decisions in a reasonable manner. I dont know how to fix this, I will need to work on this one somehow. I am still looking for ideas. This is one of the things, after our appointment on Monday, when I call Dr. Harley again, I am sure will get a lot of help on this.

Physical Attractiveness - She has said that she still thinks I am very attractive, just that she isnt attracted to me because of her "hate and resentment." Still, I have restarted my workout regimen, going at it for almost 3 weeks now and it is showing results already.

Financial Support - I think this one is fine in that I make enough for us at this time. She has a nicer house than she expected to have (even though she wants to leave it).

***Domestic Support - K, I am still doing good on this. She hasnt told me NOT to do her laundry when I have taken stuff out and folder, merely saying, "You dont have to do that." I respond with, "I want to do it for you, you do many things for me, I like the chance to do something for you."

***Family Commitment - I quit playing video games and reading recreational books, as well as quit most activities other than dealing with my son during the time I am home and he is awake. I am doing a lot of personal "self help" stuff to improve myself as a person (and therefore a father) as well as reading the "Parenting" magazines we get. I have asked her opinion on things to do with our son for development, asked her without prompting how doctors visits etc go, and taken a lot more effort to properly exercise and work on training our dog (Siberian Husky). I have NOT scheduled any recreational activities as a family. I must do better with this one. I have a couple days off next week. Maybe do it then.

***Admiration - She has stated that she hasnt ever felt appreciated for what she does. I have been making a point to say "Thank you" for everything. I also have been making a point of identifying when I feel proud of something she does, and being sure to tell her. "I am so proud of the work you did and all effort you made to raise that money for the March of Dimes." This has been helped my personal effort to see positives in things instead of always seeing the negatives. I am hoping this shows and allows me to be more pleasant.


LOVE BUSTERS

Selfish Demands - IOk, I didnt think this one was an issue. It is. Big time. I am very controlling, not in the blatant "do this now" but in the, if I am not in control I will be mean and manipulative and badgering until I get the control, and then I will be pleasant again. I am working on my trust issue and allowing other people control and being ok with it. So far, it hasnt shown a result in her that I can detect, but I can definately feel the beginnings of changes in me. I am much more comfortable. Not done yet, but better.

Disrespectful Judgements - K, both of us are terrible on this one. Either at the counselor on Monday or after we see him, I am going to talk to her and lay it out. "I am never going to intentionally do something that hurts you. If I hurt you, I would appreciate it if you would assume its not on purpose, and to please tell me so that I am allowed the opportunity to fix it or not repeat it." Today, I got a call, said "I will be outside" and stepped out the door. Apparently she couldnt see me around the corner in the back yard, yelled for me and called my phone (didnt ring), and when I came in, she said "Maybe now that you arent so busy wandering off you can help out and maybe change the baby's diaper." I said "ok" and she turned away rolling her eyes. I said "what was taht, why did you roll your eyes? are you mad about something?" She wouldnt say anything, so I told her I cant avoid making her mad if I dont know what I did, and I honestly dont know. So she told me and almost got very heated, but I said I thought she heard me, and I never left the fence area, I am sorry I didnt hear you, and you can check my phone, no missed calls, it didnt ring. I then changed the baby, came back and said, "I am sorry I didnt make sure you knew where I was before stepping out, I will do better next time." She said thank you, and seemed ok for a while.

Angry Outbursts - I have not had a single AO first, and can count on 1 hand the number of AO's I have had immediately following one of hers. This doesnt sound good enough to me. I HAVE apologized for every one of my AOs, and do not usually get any back, but I will keep doing better at this.

Annoying Habits - WOW!! I have a TON of these. Big and small things that she finds annoying. Unfortunately, most of what she gives me has been in the form of Traits so I have been spending a lot of time thinking these over and trying to identify specific habits associated with the perception, and working on them.
You are inconsiderate and rude - I have begun being more concious of my manners and the way I act towards people (still doing GREAT with this one)
You are annoying - I know a couple things that annoy her, as far as like, picking up after myself, making noises while eating, putting certain things in a certain place, folding her tacos a certain way, etc, that I am working on and trying to remember. (same with this one)
You dont listen - Still working hard on Listening Skills and realling hearing her. Hoping the MC can help with this one some.

Independant Behavior - I have been guilty of this. I used to go to work and then come home and that woudl be it, no calls, didnt even know when I would be home. I have begun calling after my workout (8am), lunch time, and right before I leave, to keep her updated. We arent allowed to bring our phones into work for security reasons, but I have made sure she has the work number. At this point, I feel like i have to do many things independantly since she seems to refuse to engage in them with me. I have been good about this so far, and have made it a point to include her in any decision I am making (except trivial ones ie - which gas station to get gas from)

Dishonesty - This one is a real pain since I definately agree that it includes openness and transparency. I am doing these changes for me, but I also want her to see the changes and choose to stay. However, I dont feel I can tell her this. This is one example of many things I dont feel like I can really share with her right now. I am not sure where to draw the line. It used to be that I would tell her basically everything I could think of. Still torn on this one...


I am trying to figure out a way for us to sit down and set up some ground rules for Negotiations. She has previously said that its something we should do. We still havent done this, though my abiding by the four rules of negotiation has done wonders to calm several incidents already.

I am also trying to figure out a way to get her to do a Telephone MC with Doc Harley. I dont want to trick her into it, but I also dont want this to end and feel like I didnt do EVERYTHING I POSSIBLY COULD to try to save it. I am still working on this and am hoping to have more to try after Mondays appointment. I am not sure how it will go, but I am almost decided on calling Dr Harley regardless how it goes.

I am also trying to continue gathering information on AH's, IB's and other LBs that I might not be aware of yet. Cant think of anything specific, though I DO need to start writing any that I can think of down.

I am also working on trying to really identify her top emotional needs. Havent gotten too far on this. The no UA time is really slowing me down. I wish we could "hang out" like we used to.

I think so far it is:

Family Commitment
Affection
Conversation (she talks to friends a LOT now, and we USED to talk CONSTANTLY!)
Domestic Support

I am not sure if these are really the most important ones for her, or if they are the ones she has said because they are not being met. Need to keep investigating and seeking hints.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2370066 05/07/10 10:50 PM
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BT,
I just got back from grocery shopping (late night, no one in the store to slow me down), and realized I had left my computer running. A few things pop into my mind:

How old are you and your wife? I missed that.

Why don't you just level with her and tell her you really don't know what is most important to her for you to do (just like that), and you know you do things that hurt her feelings, and you are trying to correct that, but you just don't know every time you do it, so would she please just let you know.

If she gets on board with this, and realizes she doesn't exactly know what she wants, the priority, or what jerks her chain, maybe she will buy into some guidance from the MB books or articles online. Maybe you show her the EN Questionnaire you filled out for her, and the Love Buster Questionnaire you filled out for her (but not your own). Then get her to correct it by filling one out herself.


Me: 61
Dear Wife: 58
Married: 35 years
Retread #2370100 05/08/10 05:24 AM
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Shopping in empty stores is a blast! Very fast.

26 (me)/ 24, married at 21/19

Leveled with her about that, that I want to do things better, am working on things, but would appreciate if she could help me out a bit with things. Right now, in withdrawal, she says she doesnt feel she needs to tell me these things since she is done already.

She has said "I was 19, I dont want or need the same things." We talked a lil about this, and she at one point said she didnt know what she needed.

I asked her about the ENQ as an idea to help either us or for anything in the future as a means to get to know ourselves better. She says I didnt need to do it since I am done.

I WILL show her the ENQ and LBQ and ask for corrections. Right now she seems to find every reason possible to stay away. That is a DJ since I didnt ask her, but, I fear that when I show her the ENQ / LBQ she is going to say something along the lines of "see you dont even know who I am." Since I now recognize this as a DJ, and because I honestly do want to change my habits, I will show her it anyway, open myself up and trust her, and see what happens.

I am trying to keep my body language from being defensive by focusing on the positives and hope, since it is always easy to hit someone who is already flinching. Figuratively. We dont hit eachother.


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BTinTrouble #2370102 05/08/10 05:37 AM
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she watches Dr. Phil, so I also found this quote:

�Don't consider divorce until you've investigated every potential avenue of rehabilitation. You have to earn your way out of a marriage. Years of suffering does not mean you've been working on things. Unless and until you can look yourself in the mirror and know that you've tried everything there is and that you can walk out the door in peace and with no resentment, then you're not ready to be discussing divorce.


I know Dr. Phil isnt MB, and he doesnt agree with MB stuff all around, but some of his stuff does, especially the personal accountability. I especially liked this quote as another reference saying Divorce is NOT the answer when you still have problems, since you will just bring those same problems to your next relationship.

I am selfish for not wanting her to leave. She is a wonderful person, giving and caring mother. I also love her, and I dont want to see her hurt anymore which is what I fear will happen if she just leaves without giving it a try and resolving things. Thirdly, we have a 15month son and I sincerely believe the BEST thing for him would be a happy mom and dad, married, who know how to negotiate through things effectively where they both end up happy with the result, and still in love.



An interesting note on LISTENING SKILLS!
I read something in a book about practicing and it was saying its not fair to any human to make them talk at you while you practice listening. Turn on the tv to like, CSPAN or smethign where they talk for hours straight and force/train yourself to listen.

Every time your mind wanders, drag it back, pay attention to their body language and words, and really listen to them.

When you can listen to them for a half hour, than you should be ok to listen to people.

I am planning to do this, because I am a totally ROTTEN listener.

Same book said some characteristics of poor listening are: Planning your response before they finish, "Listening" for the briefest pause so you can interupt, Thinking about how much better you could say what the speaker is saying, or thinking about other things completely.

There were a couple more, but I do every one of those habitually. I am sure you can imagine what an LB it is.


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BTinTrouble #2370761 05/09/10 09:30 PM
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Wow, HUGE day!

Mothers Day! Hope all you Mom's had a wonderful day!

I think my W did. She got a nice breakfast made for her, hung out with me and our son, and then he had to go down for a nap.

When he went down, she asked to talk. I used a lot of the things I have been reading in that Communication book as far as the way I interacted. I actually listened to her and let her get a lot off her chest. I wasnt PERFECT, but MUCH better, and she got to say a lot. She said she is done hurting and being hurt, she is still leaving and a bunch of other things, but in the end, she agreed that we need to work some things out and to communicate better if nothing else, than for our son. I told her I still loved her and am not going to give up on us or her happiness. She said she doesnt want our son to see us fighting and arguing. I told her I will never fight with her again. I will talk and negotiate with her, but I am done fighting, forever.

She actually smiled and said thank you.

Then she got her present that I had actually began the process of getting before she ever told me she was leaving. A locket with laser engraved pictures of her and our first son (who passed away the day after he was born) on one side and me and our second son on the other, and a message engraved in the back.

She smiled, almost started a happy cry, said she loved it, thank you, and gave me a hug.

It was a friend hug.

But a hug...

Now, we got our first counseling tomorrow. Its not an MB, its not one of the Harley's, she still doesnt like the idea of spending money on counseling when we can access a free one, since she says she isnt going to stay no matter what.

I think I get it, she is still hurting, I am in the red. Of course she doesnt want to stay. She also doesnt know how to say it, but I am listening now, and I hear her.

Today I deposited several units. Also, I think my biggest LBs were Selfish Demands, Independant Behavior, and probably DJ's, mostly in the way I used to talk to her and neglect her. I obviously havent been neglecting her, and I am getting better by the day at listening and really communicating.

Its not an MB counseling but I am hoping we can get a couple things out of it (to start):

1) Learn (both of us) to communicate better. We really need this. I am learning a lot on my own from books and stuff, but I can probably do a lot better with help. She also needs some help in this area, so this is a very good thing. We cant even talk without hurting eachother if we cant stay calm.

2) I am hoping a non-MC counselor can at least be an unbiased observer and help her see the things, if any, she can do to make herself happy, with me or anyone else in the future. Again, I would LOVE for her to stay with me, but even if she doesnt I want her to be happy, and she needs to continue to grow as a person and not trust someone else to do it for her.

3) Thirdly, I am hoping an MC can help her with resentment. She has a right to be angry with me. I dont want to see it ruin her life. Whether she moves on with me or without me, I hope she can resolve the anger and resentment, and move past it to really be happy.


I have also written her dad. I just said what I am doing, and what I have done. He can and probably will ask her for her side and give her whatever advice he thinks is best for her and our son. That is all I can ask for, and will be happy with whatever he tells her.

Ultimately, I am hoping MC + her dad can maybe get her to at least call Dr. Harley with me. I am hoping we can have many days like today where no LB withdrawals, and at least some EN deposits are made so maybe I can get to 0 and at least be given a shot. Earning her trust is going to be a long hard road, but I am ready for it. If I can get her on with Dr. Harley, than maybe the 3 of us can come up with a plan that respects her right to not be hurt, but also has a chance for us to work for us and our son.

Still hopeful...

Thank you all on the boards for your support and thoughts!


Lifelong recovery never ends.

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