I'm thinking about my kids, having all this information, seeing in action how folks replace out the LBs with new behaviors, and it gives me hope.

I agree it's easy to go the other way. DH doesn't WANT to work more - he'd prefer to be home with us, he just offered to take one to ease my mind and stress level. Like you said before - reading the mixed signals I'm sending and doing his best to keep up. We've worked out a budget by cutting some extra things and he's picked up a bit of moonlighting working on computers.

I agree about squandering time together, though I think men and women equally contribute. So many women go into 'Mommy' mode when the kids are born and there is ONE way to do everything and they're the only ones that know how, so the husband just checks out since everything he does is wrong. I started falling in to this trap until DH sat me down and showed me what I was doing and how I was excluding him. It's been much better since.

The problem is many men don't speak up about how they're being sidelined and if they do their wives bristle at the criticism... and then a few years down the road a couple of kids are underfoot and husband comes home from work, parks his butt on the couch and watches TV or plays video games and the wife can't even shower b/c she's on kid duty 24/7. I've heard more complaints than I'd like about dead beat dads who do nothing from women who don't realized they created the very situation they're complaining about.

Much like Jim and Karen, it's baby steps of 'doing what you think is best' and losing focus of the primary relationship: man and wife. It's not realizing that you HAVE to speak up about things that are bothering you and you HAVE to be willing to hear criticism for what it is: an opportunity to make things better.

If DH hadn't had the courage to sit down and tell me how he was feeling, if I hadn't had the humility to listen to him and value his feelings - we'd be on the road so many other couples are that I see day in and day out.

I totally disagree with this.....there is noway that you can sustain working 80hrs a week and have quality UA time together for you & your spouse + family time.

My spouse has worked this way for yrs.....he won't change it....plus he works traveling away like this....we would see him on average 3-4days per month.....that's insane....our marriage has suffered termendously for this choice of his....we didn't NEED him to have a job that required this amount of hours + travel...we simply don't. He could have taken a job and worked 50hrs per week and never traveled and we would have been fine. HE wanted the 1st home we ever bought...it was HIS decision....NO PRESSURE from me whatsoever....we had a 2 bedroom apt and that would have worked with us and our 1st born....but HE said we MUST have a home. So sometimes it's not the woman putting pressure on the man to over buy her things. I sure didn't.....I gave him my new paid off car(I purchased it while dating him and paid it off myself) as his vehicle to go to work in and went w/o a car for 2yrs so we didn't have the burden of the expense....that was all my idea...not to mention since he wasn't ever home we eat pb&j sandwichs alot! you can cut your food budget to uber cheap believe me....I know the ways and had NO problems doing all of that....I just wanted my spouse to be involved with the marriage and our children.

HE told me he was not interested in the babies/kids stuff....he wanted to wait until they were older THAN he would do things with them...trust me this has not worked out like he thought it would.

So Vibrassa (I think it was you) you are spot on correct....don't encourage your spouse to work 80hrs.....a second job...this is not a good idea....you can't POJA that...your UA and family time will suffer....and once that pattern comes into play it is very extremely difficult to get the person to stop the behavior of working so much....they become addicted to work....get all their pleasure from it....and see being at home as a missed opporunity to make money....geez if I had a $1 for everytime I heard those words told to me....I'd be a millionaire!

Also just another note....my spouse my have felt he was superman doing this schedule but he wasn't...on his downtime he was so sleep deprived...if he so much as sat down...he'd be asleep in a nano second....even fell asleep at the wheel....our physical bodies simply can't do it all....so when he was around he sleep, was very cranky and disinterested in our kids & myself....we were seen as making "demands" on him and he was beaten down tired...so we left him alone and the pattern continued....20yrs later...he is working 7days a week and trust me it doesn't get any prettier.

On paper, it could work:

168 hours in a week, 8 hours of sleep a night is 56 hours, 80 hours of work leaves 32 hours left over, 15 for spouse and 15 for kiddos with 2 extra thrown in there. I know there's no time for commute/ getting ready for work, I included it in the 80 hours, though it could come out of sleep.

The problem with your husband is not that he's working a lot of hours, the problem is that he doesn't value time with you or the kids over time for himself. He squanders any time extra just like Retread said. On top of that most of his work time is spent travelling - it doesn't allow for actual time at home, sleeping in his own bed. DH and I manage a bit of UA time every night in the 15/20 min before we fall asleep - sometimes with our busy schedules it's all we can get, it's all we got last night as finals are coming up for him.

I agree that 80 hours is a bit of a stretch, but even 70 hours is manageable (on paper at least), I think - IF the priorities and focus is kept on the wife and family and not the self. I could see how SOME could do it.

Now it wouldn't work for our family - we are greedy about the time we get to spend together and both DH and I need a bit of alone time to unwind. Hence, why we didn't push the second job. I also don't think it's good for your family - as your current situation evidences. However, I can't say that it can't work for any family ever.

I definitley struggled with this. If you care to see me writhe in pain and eventually come out of it - please read my thread LOL! ~ pg 35 post # 2347041 is where I begin to really get antsy about this I think. Page 43 is where I actually get some answers on how to deal....

Who is "they"? YOU have to make your marriage work. "They" can't do it for you, no matter how many tests they give or what "they" require of you before they "allow" you to get married.

I'm amazed how many people felt like that story in chapter 1 reflected their marriage. I thought it was only coincidence that it fit me and Prisca so well.

I am not advocating 80 hour work weeks, just saying that it is not some overtime or a second job that gets in the way of UA, RC, and DS from the working spouse. It is one or both spouses not being tuned in to the fact that they have been apart all day or all week and NEED to make an effort to engage in happy time together.

I know, because I have done it. I often have to work 50 to 70 hours a week because I have been retained to turn a business unit around. I know it is possible, because I know doctors and attorneys who have to work long hours because they are are not in control of their schedules. Emergencies come at them. Many of them have happy marriages with lots of time spent DOING things with the family, not watching TV or reading in the same room.

Many who work too much and travel too much also have marital problems. But so do their neighbors down the street who only have to commute five minutes to a 35-hour-a-week government job with no take-home responsibilities.

I, like some of my lawyer and doctor friends, cut back on our work a long time ago, when we realized that family time and activities with our spouses were more important to all of us than an extra $50,000 a year. But every one of us got some push back from our wives about working less, even though the income was still plenty. It was like they worried we might be on a trend, or mid-life crisis, or burn out, heading towards 20 hours a week, then 10, then totally goofing off. Again, mixed signals. You have to persist through that, and talk about it.

That would be heaven to my wife, if we could afford it. She'd love to see me trend down, work one hour less a week, till all the time consumed by the job is put into us. We'd love to goof off together!

I think thats why Dr. H used their example- it typifies what he's seen again and again. I know I've seen the story play out around me many times. That Dr. H, he's a smart one

(Glad you're chiming in here Markos)


This. Good for you for cutting back. Maybe it's our Hispanic heritage, but DH and I have a huge aversion to doing anything that takes time from our family. Family is a very important part of our culture. I can see how the wives would freak a bit. I can't imagine having 50,000$ less a year (heck thats more than we live off of now). The key to making it through is persistence and talking with each other. RH is imperative.

Vibrissa, I hesitated to state a dollar figure, but I have seen lots of doctors and others cut their incomes in half, live just as well, and be a lot happier. They realized they didn't need a bigger house when the one they had was just paid off. They didn't need a 24-foot $100,000 sport fishing boat, when a 16-footer will haul the family around for $5,000, and mostly sit in the driveway for 350 days a year. Same for that big office building with the huge payments and staff.

The happiest people I know figured this out early, and they still live in the homes they bought when their now-grown children were just babies. They drive a Chevy Blazer or a Camry. The only people they are trying to impress are their wife and children.

That said, most people don't have any control over how much they work being related to income, only the blue-collar workers who get overtime, and the professionals and entrepreneurs on the other end. And for the last group, income is not linearly related to work, like the dial on a toaster oven. It's more like pushing a rock up a hill. Once you decide to push a bigger rock, you don't get any rest until it's over the top, or it rolls back and kills you.

Hi All,
I've read the LB book several times and since it's still early in this discussion and Chap 1 and Chap 2 are about basic concepts, I thought I'd risk derailing the current direction on this thread for a bit to see what happens. I'd like to introduce a new topic: Why the Positive Side of the Love Bank Concept is Hard to Swallow by Some

It's such a basic concept that I wanted to bring it up early in this thread, before we get too deep into actual LBs.

Let me explain. Everyone buys the idea that negative things people do will cause a withdrawal in something that people would readily agree is like a bank account. Even people who don't believe in the MB concept, can accept most of the LB book, at least in terms of the negative effects.

But why is it so hard for those same people, who readily agree that negative actions cause withdrawals, to believe that when the bank account is full enough from positive actions, the feelings of love will be there? It's almost like the bank account has account limits in their minds.

When I explain this to people, such as my dad, he adopts this sort of worldly wistful tone that love is just...something special...and you once it's gone, baby, it's gone. My w believes the same. And so do her parents.

I wonder if the lack of believing in the positive side of the love bank concept seems to be what prevents lots of spouses from trying.

Is it unusual for someone to believe in the LB negative side of the bank account and simultaneously not believe in the positive side? I wonder why?

Has anyone found good analogies that seem to work well to get someone to understand the positive side?

EHG - I really think in some cases it's going to depend on what sort of love busters they were, how they were perceived, and how long the spouse had to deal with them.

If you have to deal with the more extreme love busters (selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts) for years and years, your optimism and hope of that turning around permanently can be too damaged to believe that the effects can be reversed.

It's hard to describe "hope" to someone else, but I think that's what you're asking for. Dr. H talks sometimes about needing to show that person what you're about. You can talk till the cows come home, but what really makes an impression is what you do, not so much what you say. I mean...after a profound apology, the rest is going to be more action than word.

That being said I think asking for help from your spouse, to identify for you when you love bust, would involve them and demonstrate to them and offer hope to them that you're working on eliminating the LBs. It can be as simple as a "Time Out" sign or them just saying, "You're doing it" for you to stop and reassess. Otherwise, I think they're in this weird sort of detached holding pattern and may continue withdrawing when you love bust, just like they've probably done all the years preceding. Asking them to let you know just might help. Now...some may say, "No way - you got yourself into this mess; you can get yourself out of it." My answer to that would be, "I don't blame you for feeling that way, but I could sure use your help."

EHG - I think what you're describing is more of an 'overdrawn' analogy, where the withdrawals have actually exceeded the deposits. There's usually penalties with that - fees to be paid, but that doesn't mean the account has to be canceled.

You pay the fee and work to make good deposits so that you never overdraw your account again. And of course the more deposits you make, the more secure you feel.

The bank analogy is really a great one.

Based on what you've shared with us, your wife's love bank should not at this time be overdrawn, but if she is still acting like it is, then it could very well be that she needs to be more involved in the process.

One fun way to involve her would be to issue her a squirt gun. Just sayin now...think about it...might be fun...LOL

Hang in there.

Markos.... not to be a smarty pants but in High school when they are teaching you to be a good homemaker this stuff would be very helpful too.

Don't know if you took any Home Ec courses in school did they ever teach you about about SF ? And not ignore your spouse because meals needed to be cooked, laundry done.

I was told @ a very young age while wiping down tables after a party by a grown man I would make a great wife one day.

I took that as a complement & it has stayed with me all of these years.

If he would of told me the truth , he would have been seen as a dirty old man.

Another thing I was told before I was married was a husband wants a wh*re in the bedroom & a lady in public.

If you have read my story, you already know I have a problem with this.

I talked to a Psychologist today. He chastised me because the power of negative thoughts in my brain is a well exercised muscle. I can extrapolate worst possible scenarios to the n'th degree in a fraction of a second.

But...

pulling the POSITIVE out of something is a weak pathetic atrophied resemblance of what might have been a muscle back in the mesosoic era...

So maybe it isnt unusual. How many people do you know who can easily spot why something is "wrong," but when asked to find something positive about the same statement have trouble? Look at movie critics....

My wife wants to leave me. It is very easy for the negative possibilities to be identified, but it wasnt till I tried to pull the positives out of it that I realized how much good could come of it:

1) I learn about myself and become a better person
2) She learns that she doesnt have to accept being taken for granted, and learns its ok to stand up for herself.

It was a lot of work to come up with just those 2 for me, because like many people I know, its not whats GOOD about something that pops out in your mind first. People you meet that DO think of the good things first are generally fantastic people you are happy to be around.

Its a muscle. Use it and it will grow and get easier.

Good morning. I'd like to address a few things beginning with page 42. Dr. H states, Each spouse's state of mind can draw the other spouse into it.

I have to completely agree with this. In my own marriage, I have noticed that he and I have attitudes that certainly do rub off on each other. I think this usually happens when the bad attitude/mood is relentless - meaning over a period of hours or days or maybe even weeks. It's very hard to hold up the relationship's positivity single handedly. Eventually it does rub off and the happier, more contented spouse does get upset. At least in our case. I tell my husband when I get like this, "I was never like this until we got married. I was kind, saw the good in everyone, etc." I know it isn't kind of me to say that. I know it. I'm learning still, even after 5-6+ years here (don't really know how long I've been here. I'm like an adopted child with no recorded birth date. My 'birth records' were destroyed when the website crashed years ago).

Anyway - I have seen, SEEN, folks, how I can change my husband's mood on a dime- very easily. I can. I'll bet you can too. And you can use those powers for good or EVIL. Use it for good. Try it; you'll like it. It's fun. It's rewarding.

Do I do it often enough? No. But...I'm going to try and make being home better for him, at least for today. I can do that. For women...please don't take this with rolling eyes. Hey - I'm 47. I've been around a teensy bit. I have a long way to go, but I can vouch that a lilt in the voice, an offer to make a drink or a snack, a kiss on the head and a hug, can really put things back on track and help to sooth the tired and injured soul. If you are alert, you can see it in the body language. The face relaxes. The muscles in the shoulders and back loosen up a bit. The tone in the voice changes. The vulnerability rises, and conversation begins. So...we listen...we nod...we encourage more talking...we validate...we mirror...we hug again...we can do this. It's not hard. It costs nothing. It's free, and we all know how many things these days are FREE.

It lays the track for, as Dr. H calls it, The Road Back to Intimacy

I think two things need to happen, at least in my world, for this road block to be lifted: An apology and a willingness to be vulnerable again. Good Lord...if I told you people how many days in my marriage were wasted over the past 21 years waiting for the other person to apologize you'd just sit there and shake your head saying, Sooly, Sooly, Sooly.

And I sit here in tears knowing when I'm holding his hand at the end, I would give my right arm to have those days back so that I could 'do over' my choices...because days like that are no different than smoking a pack of cigarettes. No offense to the smokers out there, but think about it. They rob you of your health (physical or emotional), but they also rob you of TIME with those you love...

As Dr. H states, AN APOLOGY IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO BEGIN THE TREK BACK TO INTIMACY.

I think sometimes we underestimate our spouse's intelligence and perception when it comes to apologies. We don't realize they can tell when the apology is half hearted or insincere. We don't realize they can tell it's 'just to make peace - to make life livable again.' No one wants an apology for those reasons. I really don't think so. No. I think they want an apology because they're hurting, and they need you back on their side again. They've been emotionally injured, and you were the cause. How could this have happened? How could we have hurt someone we walked down the isle with, whose hand we slid a ring on and held while our children were born? How?

Soolee, my ability to change my H's mood was a source of irritation for me for a long time. I saw it as mental weakness / instability on his part...especially because, for the most part, his mood did not affect mine so directly. (at least that was my perception)

I totally agree with this. So often, we see our spouse as THE ENEMY, when they're not. Part of our commitment to Love (v.) them is doing just this. Often when times are rough, rather than raising our protective walls, we need to reach out and comfort our spouse. I know it's hard if you have been hurt or rejected in the past - intimacy is one of the hardest things to do because it leaves you so vulnerable.

DH woke up yesterday and everything was going wrong. Often when he has days like that it rubs off and I have a horrible day and by the end of it we're just irritated and irritable at each other. Instead of getting into a funk with him and then blaming him for bringing me down, I searched online for a children's song we both remember from nursery days at church and sent it to him - he wasn't expecting it and told me it cheered him right up. Then we made plans for lunch together and had a pleasant day.

We can CHOSE to support or we can CHOSE to withdraw. Often it is in the smallest things that we show our support and make all the difference.

About Apologies:

Intimacy requires that we be willing to look into ourselves and admit our shortcomings. That is so hard to do - it's painful to look at where you're messing up, especially if you're like me and always do everything right (yeah right). You have to do that to be willing to apologize when you're wrong.

In the second chapter Dr H. describes a fight and it seems that the definition is a fight is when two Takers go at it head to head. Whether you're right, or you're wrong on an issue- if your Taker is the one driving the car - you are in the wrong and must apologize, it's hard to see that in yourself, however. It takes training.

I found it interesting that in most situations our Giver and Taker are naturally balanced (The book uses the grocery store example), yet in a Marriage it is either one, or the other, in charge. This is also a natural state, yet it is one that leads to disaster. Intimacy comes from putting them back in balance.

Soolee, a good post. I am big on having a positive mood.

What you said about the thyroid is very true. A lot of women and men who have a medical cause for their mild depression are in denial about even having negative feelings. They don't want to believe that it could be "their fault", for having a medical condition. They avoid getting tested for hypothyroidism, or low testosterone, or other things.

Even after major events like childbirth and death of a parent, which everyone should be aware of as sources of emotional distress, many people refuse to even consider that their general outlook on life has changed. If they feel sad or uncaring, well, their spouse must be the cause.

If and when you finally do learn that you have a medical cause for your negative view of life, or come to terms with some past emotional trauma that wrecked your attitude, you have to let go of that, and you have to look back at all the past years and undo the bad attitudes and DJs you had about other people, in order to live in the present.

Even if your negative attitude was caused by your spouse not meeting your ENs 20 years ago, or heaping LBs on you way back when, if they have changed now, admit their mistakes, and apologize, you have to be able to accept the apologies, accept their admissions, and accept their changes for the better. That means letting go of bad attitudes which are just residue, and not part of what is happening now.