Chris - I think I did too - view it as a character flaw or an instability. What I've determined now is that we are such a part of each other after all these years, that it is pretty much impossible not to be affected significantly by each other's moods.

Keeping that in mind, it's probably in our best interests to at least attempt to change the course of the mood while not necessarily assuming responsibility for it.

Good way to put it

One point made in Chapter 1 is that ALL love busters are bad habits, not just the Annoying Habits. That's why angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements, selfish demands, and independent behavior are so damaging: because they become character traits.

If you did not engage in these bad habits before, you need to stop them in order to restore your character. If you have been doing then since childhood, you need to unlearn them in order to build character.

Agreed. I kid you not when I say how disappointed I am in myself that I have allowed my marriage to denigrate who I am at the core.

I have a lot of work to do.

I think when you've been hanging out with a person unlike yourself for 20+ years, it isn't unheard of to pick up each other's habits and make them your own.

Doesn't mean I was perfect before - far from it. However, I'd really like to get back to the old me and then go from there.

How is it that the traits we had prior to marriage and that attracted our spouses to us are the very traits that can mutate and erode from staying with that person?

Is it because those are the traits they wish they had? Is that why they're attracted to it? And are their traits stronger than ours for theirs to win out?

And please...my marriage has also enriched my life; don't get me wrong, but do you all know what I mean?

From my POV, I don�t need an apology to re-engage with my W. What works is something like the following that Soolee posted,
I can vouch that a lilt in the voice, an offer to make a drink or a snack, a kiss on the head and a hug, can really put things back on track and help to sooth the tired and injured soul.

IOW, something concrete and physical, but it has to be accompanied with a positive attitude. What is described as �the intention of goodwill,� and not something that smacks of obligation and/or just trying to get the H back on her side to see her POV or a quick way (temporary) out of the doghouse.

Lou

In every day situations, if we don't like a deal, we just walk away. We can find someone with a better deal. So we are essentially ALWAYS practicing POJA.

One can't do that in a marriage. (Or if you could, it wouldn't really be marriage.) So there's nothing to force us to POJA.

Nothing, but our own internal desire to have a good marriage, once we realize what that takes. Thats why you can only affect yourself, nothing can FORCE your spouse to POJA. You can only focus on and work on your side of the street.

IF you do, there is a CHANCE your spouse could EVENTUALLY get on board. They have to have to make the same internal choice and have the same internal motivation. The spouse who knows can show and lead the way.

For me an apology is crucial. My wife apologized probably 3-4 times over the course of almost 4 years. When caught in a lie for instance, she would go to great lengths to rationalize, deflect, lie more, etc. regardless of the fact that SHE knew I knew the truth. And apology would have fixed everything, but the furtherance of the lie was incomprehensible to me. She just wouldn't apologize for anything, going so far as to actually say "I only say I am sorry when I really mean it." Hence my feelings that the other 99% she didn't say she was sorry... she wasn't and MEANT to do/say/act/injure in the way she did at the time. Not only that, but an apology helps the PERSON to recognize the mistake themselves, and allows them a key to avoid doing it in the future. My wife rarely apologized and continued with the same behavior over and over again. She would actually get mad at ME because I would say "I am sorry". I think she never heard it as she grew up, and therefore, has no idea the redeeming and healing qualities it bears with its utterance. I believe she always thought it was a sign of 'weakness or frailty' in direct opposition to my view that an apology comes from insight and strength.

I don't want the "you did it wrong" attitude. I just wanted her to recognize that she was injurious, and try to avoid the same thing in the future. I absolutely believe her lack of being able or choosing NOT TO say I am sorry, helped perpetuate her behaviors and choices.

Some people feel actual physical pain when they apologize.

Wow, Soolee, this is powerful:


I would like to take up your challenge to use those powers for good. I am struggling with being able to do it (and be sincere) when I feel injured and crave an apology.

I get it intellectually that it is foolish to waste time waiting for the other to "go first." I am trying to go first. But what you describe, changing the mood with "a lilt in the voice" (and being sincere) seems nigh to impossible right now.

I am the type of person who needs a verbal apology. A whole conversation would be even better. I wonder if it tends to be based on gender... my H seems just fine with proceeding with better actions without ever discussing the harmful action. No matter how nice he acts afterward though, I still feel "ruffled." I need communication in order to process through those feelings and feel "smoothed" again.

Dr. Harley states: "If you want a happy marriage, you must be able to discuss your differences safely and enjoyably."

This is hard for us. Something we have to work on. Perhaps this is a good time to inner reflect and ask ourselves what our marriage's style actually is for discussing our differences.

Dr. H also states: "...the solution to the problem is not to return fire for fire. If you want to return to intimacy, you must avoid following the Taker's rule at all costs, even when you are being mistreated. And if you do that, you will have overcome abuse."

The Taker uses selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts as its favorite approach to problem solving. Dr. H tells us that in the coming chapters, he will help us avoid these approaches.

Each of these qualifies as marital abuse.

Important to emphasize that he says: "In marriage it is very easy to fall from intimacy to conflict to withdrawal. But it is difficult to climb back from withdrawal to conflict to intimacy."

Before we we go onto the next area for discussion...

Did anyone cover the fact that your spouse is the most likely / easiest person for you to hate & why?

I didn't see that mentioned, but I think it's important that you said it, Chris. On page 23, he states: "Of all the people you know, you are more likely to hate your spouse than anyone else.And your spouse is more likely to hate you than anyone else."

Any other relationship we have more say in how much contact we have with them and can prevent them from making more withdrawals. As Dr. H states: "We close their account before things get that bad." Can't do that very easily with your spouse because you can't avoid them.

Feel free to jump around Part I in this discussion!! Let's get the most out of this.

The book, "The Five Languages of Apology", explains what real apologies are, why they work and why even sincere apologies do not always work, because every person has a different types of apologies they need to hear.

Just as you have to meet the ENs of the other party, you have to communicate an apology the way they need to hear it, not just the way you are comfortable saying it.

Apologies in a marriage...meh. I can take them or leave them. I mean - that's how I feel now. Since I have learned MB, I don't place much stock in apologies...

In Chapter 2, I like the way Dr. Harley reinforces the concepts that love busters are habitually bad behaviors.

Next, he shows how they are related, and how they develop, as escalation of ABUSIVE behavior.

1. Selfish demands, rather than a polite request and negotiations using the POJA.

2. Disrespectful Judgements in an effort to shame and bully the spouse into doing things their way.

3. Angry Outbursts and threats when the insults don't work.

He then talks about how his thousands of cases have shown him that the spouse who is engaging in these three abusive behaviors almost always says it is the other spouse who is abusing them!

Harley explains this by introducing his concepts of the Giver and Taker mentalities, and how they operate in the Three States of Marriage.

I think spouses twist their abusive behavior into feeling abused because they feel "abused" for not having their ENs met. If this is intentional refusal, it would be abusive. But if it is unintentional, or perhaps the ENs are unreasonable or impossible to meet at that time, ... well, it's just an EN you cannot have met at that moment. I see the SD, DJ and AO as childish tactics, the way toddlers, brats, and spoiled teenagers behave.

Young people have a lot of dreams, images of how they want things to be, plans of how they will prosper and be happy and have more and more of everything. But in real life, there are bumps in the road. Maybe you chose the wrong road, or you drove too fast, but there are still things like bumps and washed out bridges, which are not your fault. The mature personality admits their mistakes, and accepts bad luck for what it is, without becoming angry at the world. Others channel that frustration into anger at themselves, or their spouses, for choosing the wrong road, or not talking them out of choosing the wrong road. None of that helps solve the problem.

Bumping this to remind everyone that we'll begin discussion of Chapters 3 and 4 on Monday. I'm going to have to play 'catch up' with my reading!