Yeah, but according to MB, there should be O and H. If a wife or husband becomes disinterested, a couple should be able to openly and honestly discuss it.

If an angry spouse won't be O and H and share his or her perspective, then that is an issue in and of itself that impedes marital intimacy.

In a normal M, how is denying sexual relations with a spouse because of anger, frustration, stress, etc, any different from refusing to speak to a spouse because of the same reasons? Both seem like very unhealthy methods of behavior to me.

If a wife is angry, stressed, frustrated, etc, she has to start within her own mind to deal with it. (So does a husband when he has similar feelings.) Then she can turn to her spouse for support to work through it.

Or maybe the wife has to determine that her reaction to her anger, frustration, stress, etc is hers alone. That she is the one who has to place her stress aside, refuse to subjugate her *passions* to outside forces (ie honey do list, kids, chores, $$$, etc), direct her focus on the enjoyment she receives and gives from relations with her husband, and make a commitment to herself to physically enjoy herself in her sexual relationship with her husband. (ie "I'm going to enjoy sharing my body with my husband and the pleasure I receive. There will always be some type of stress or frustration in life. I'm not going to deprive myself of something wonderful because of other things in life.")


There are too many good wives out there with good husbands that don't open themselves to better, more fulfilling sex lives. They go the route of letting "life" dictate their sexual interaction with their husbands instead of focusing first on the awesome ability to enjoy their sexuality with their husbands. It's sad, imho.

Probably the root of lost intimacy is the inability to have intimate conversation, to discuss openly and honestly what you really appreciate and enjoy, and what really is bothering you.

Some couples get married without ever having intimate conversations about anything, much less about everything. I suspect most couples did get there before marriage, and that was the major connection which led them to feel enough "in love" to tie the knot.

At some point, one or both of them get so disappointed, resentful, or angry that they become unable to speak openly. Maybe they could only do it before about pleasant things, and now they have lots of unpleasant things in their mind, but are unable to talk about them. Even when one spouse tries to engage in intimate conversation in a loving and respectful way, the other spouse simply cannot or will not join them.

Bingo! This is a HUGE part of my problem.

I thought *I* had the corner on that market!

Getting to being able to be open and honest without having the OP getting defensive is a problem I face. POJA is another problem. What is mutually agreed on amounts to very little. Too many conditions and planet alignment specifications.

Lou

I wish my H would realize that the *way* I process something, "get over it", etc., is by talking about it. He may feel just fine if we just move on and "do better from here on out." I think most guys feel better through SF, and may think that listening to their W talk about something unpleasant is just going to "ruin the evening". But if H would sit and listen and let me confide how I feel and be vulnerable and have him respond sympathetically not angrily or defensively, boy would I *ever* feel intimate then!

This is very true:
The other side of that coin is the man who would love for his wife to open up to him like that, and for her to listen to him, as well. But she avoids any serious conversation with him, perhaps because she fears it might at some point turn to his respectfully stating his disappointment in her attention to their marriage, and his always getting the leftovers, after she is finished with the top priorities in her life.

---- elaboration
The stereotype of men not being as prone to talking through problems as women is pretty accurate. When a man does try to have a serious conversation, and his wife ignores him, or pretends to ignore him, he will usually not proceed any furthe with it. He may try again a few times to move things forward, but men have to proceed step by step, in order to trust their wives. If she can't handle hearing it, he isn't going to trust her enough to tell her any more.

Jayne, that conversation sounds VERY familiar. Have you been eavesdropping in my house?

The behaviors being described keep a relationship on a superficial level. There's no capacity for a truly intimate (not meaning only sexual) marriage.

The acts of getting angry, defensive, avoiding or ignoring a spouse who is trying to confide how he or she feels is very disrespectful and hurtful.

Why do spouses tolerate that from their partners? Why stay in a relationship like that? Being shut out like that seems just as bad as being cheated on imo.

I agree with you, of course. Marriage is supposed to be an intimate relationship, and that requires intimate conversation, which requires honesty and trust that your dreams and fears won't be ridiculed, dismissed or criticized.

Why do most people use anger, disrespectful rhetoric, and stonewalling when confronted with polite requests about their failure to meet responsiblities? The answer is self evident.

We could be discussing Financial Security, and the tactics of avoidance and fear of intimate discussion would be the same.

As you mentioned earlier, a lot of it has to do with self-determination to let go of old resentments. You can't hold onto the past and live in the present, much less plan your future.

Maybe some of these wives that are getting all the conversation, affection....body massages for 1hr (boy I would love that!) perhaps maybe they are ah....taking care of their SF in private minus the spouse....I wonder if that could be going on?

Very interesting and informative thread everyone.. I have been reading it through and I just had to stop and high-5 this

I know it happens, but I think it is once a month. Don't ask how i know.

Lou

Yes Mel thats the facts. testosterone is used in sex therapy to help women also increase thier sex-drive. KInda a jumpstart.

Not a surprise when we think about how Men are considered the "initiators" and women the "responders" is it

I agree with what mama and others say about how women are programmed to have aversions to sex also. I guess somehow although both sexes can have strong drives because the female ussually is the submissive partner society decided they didn't have brains enough to choose. Just like it decided that men would jump the first woman he saw.

What drug or hormone can I spike my H's drink with to make him want to communicate more???

And gem, are you saying that if I "take care of myself" in the SF department, then I'll get conversation, affection, body massages, and all sorts of wondrous things? Cus I could do that, I really could! lol

Well if you gave him some more testostersone maybe he would get real desparate...?and then again there is sodium penathol which is truth serum...or estrogen... lol


Seriuosly though for you guys who have been romancing your wifes for all these years and not getting that very important connection sexually my heart goes out to you. I hope you take the time to make it important to your wives that she desires you. Sex therapy, counselling and whatever it takes for you guys to tear down these srongholds that are robbing you of the passion you both deserve.

Especially because your wives know you love them and are happy with you its even more sad that they don't enjoy sex as much as you do.

As a man I understand how important it is to relate to my wife in this way. Reguardless of what life is handing you when your wanted by your wife and she submits to your initiations there is something undeniably real that is reconfirmed.

IMO, you would be doing your wives a diservice if you DIDN"T make a big deal of this.

I know you both have had patientince with this so far so it shouldn't be much of a stretch to believe you would extend the same love while she was going in for sex therapy regardles of how scary it may be for you both.

Of course the MB principles allways apply first. It will make it even sweeter after you get them therapy.


Just to be clear about what I think ...you need to set the bar higher for them and get the therapist to work out why its important in terms your wives can understand.

I do NOT want to give my DH *estrogen*!!!

Truth serum, hmmmm...

I have been reading "Love Busters" and came to page 95 "Generosity Can Lead to Angry Outbursts" that was difficult emotionally to read. In my case my Generosity has lead to me through conflict, to the state of withdrawing, and now not asking for much from the R, while not making my wishes known or complaining because it didn�t work in the first place.

The topic for me was the "Giver" vs. the "Taker" and the "Giver" not negoating what he or she needs and constantly or frequently "Giving" and getting little in return often leads to resentments (me I avoid the anger part because it isn't my style).

The solution is for the "Giver" to quit giving so often or negotiate a better deal so as to not get in a negative mindset.

A friend of mine asked me:
But there are more forms of connectedness than just sex. There is spiritual, mental and emotional connections. How would you rate these areas of connectedness? To me, these areas are as critical as physical connection... and often fuel your level of (dis)satisfaction WITH physical connection.

Taken an inventory of all these things (and be as HONEST as you can with yourself). Put it all down on a sheet of paper. Example. My wants are _______. My needs are ______. My non-negotiable are ______. On a scale of 0 - 10 (zero being highly unsatisfied, 10 being highly satisfied), rate each one in your current life.

What are your partner's wants and needs? How well are they being met? Do you have any idea?

I think it is very important to know these things about yourself first... if not, how could you even possibly address an issue?

In another book it said people that typically get little of what they want really don�t know what they would really like because something just a little better than what they have now seems like the only reasonable thing to wish for and actually receive. It is similar to the starving person wishing for just bread and something, anything to drink.

Right now I don�t think my W has much to give so I don�t ask to avoid another �chicken or the egg� situation. When I do ask it becomes a blame, if you would, or I can�t session.

How does a person (me) work with someone that usually sees the down side (her) and gets stuck there?

Lou

it may "seem" as bad as cheating but it's not......not even close. I've endured both and I would take the awful treatment everyday if it could undo the pain of H's affair.......

You are right, of course, not2fun.

Deliberately withholding love and affection, withholding SF, or just being inconsiderate of their need to feel loved is not as bad as having them give it to someone else - but it does lie on the same continuum of infidelity, a betrayal of the marriage vows.