Recover the Marriage

Yes, but feelings do not always equal TRUTH. You said you loved the OW - I've no doubt that the FEELINGS were there - know why? Because all of your actions were focused on OW, and vice versa. Remember what I told you earlier ~~~> FEELINGS follow ACTIONS

Of course one of the problems with the feelings towards OW is that they did not exist in a REAL setting. You didn't share children, a mortgage, morning breath, etc. You know, REAL LIFE with OW...The relationship was based on a FANTASY where you both were always perfectly groomed and had no problems of any sort together. Regardless of your feelings, you weren't free to love her...

Now, if instead you had chosen to focus all of your time and energy on b_r, guess what? Your feelings would have followed your actions once again - Yes, romantic love can be created - you must CHOOSE to focus on your wife in order for that to happen - and romantic love with your spouse is FAR more fulfilling than it is with an OP, because it's based upon REALITY - it's not just some surface fantasy, it's far deeper and more abiding...That is what I wish for you and b_r...

IHS, I hear what you are saying regarding only wanting to do things at b_r's pace, but she is the walking wounded right now - You MUST lead. That is your job. Do not shy away from it.

Mrs. W

P.S. I don't know who that other book that you ordered is by, but I can tell you from experience, that MB is really and truly ALL you need in order to recover - I would be wary of any material that could very easily give you conflicting messages. Pick a program and stick to it - For whatever it's worth, it is my opinion that MB is the very BEST.

I think my wife is interested in reconciliation, but I put the odds at less than 1%, given my history, the things that I have said and my lack of compassion for her. I love her and I want it to work, I am willing to move 1/2 way accross the county so I can be home every night and be with my family (what I want).

Either way I want to help our relationship as our lives will be togther because of our kids forever. I also am tired of my own actions. Even if we are no longer married I still want her to like me, be my friend. I know I love her, I didn't fight for her, I didn't fight for us, I am missing her so much right now, I am not functioning because I love her, because I hurt her.

IHS,

Betrayed spouses who attempt recovery all have the same fear and it can paralyze some into inaction while causing others to stop the recovery process and give up on it entirely. This fear causes the anger, the withdrawal, the depression, the anxiety and all the rest of the secondary emotional list that every betrayed spouse goes through. This is fear is the fear that this recovery, this repentance, this new start by the cheating spouse is not real and that this is all just a monumental waste of time.

The things a BS wants to hear can be said clearly. The things that a BS wants to see get done might happen in short order. A check list of steps in the process of reconnecting and letting the WS back into our lives can be ticked off right on schedule and yet this fear remains. It remains for a long time and the more self doubt about the ability to tell when caring love from the betrayer is genuine that is present, the longer and more persistently the fear remains.

In your case, your wife was pushing that fear away, overcoming it, setting aside her feelings of needing retribution and beginning to believe that you were in fact sincere, really fully committed to her and the marriage and that her fears were but ghosts of recent past. Then she finds out that the thing she feared most in life, the thing that she struggled so hard to avoid keeping her from giving her heart back to you and letting you into it again is exactly what turned out to be reality.

So any ability to determine if you are lying or telling the truth, really committed to her and the marriage or just blowing smoke up her skirt, honestly trying to make amends or just going through the motions...all of this stuff that she needs to be able to identify as real in order to try and get through this intact and with the marriage she thought might be on its way into existence is completely and totally gone. It has been blown to little tiny pieces and they are scattered all across the landscape. Her self doubt as to her ability to even know if you are actually in the room with her when she sees you and hears your voice talking to her has been turned into dust.

See, you made her your pirority once already. That's what you said you were doing. So now you come to her and tell her that this time you really mean it and this time you really will make her feel safe and this time you will get help for your own issues and problems and this time will be different and this time...

And the whole time she is listening to you checking off the entire list of things she heard before and the alarm bells are ringing in her head and she hears this voice from an old television show of long ago saying "Warning. Warning. Danger, Will Robinson. Danger!"

So she is trying to ignore that voice and trying so hard to push aside those fears and others who have been through multiple attacks by serial cheaters (that's what cheating is, BTW. It is an attack on the betrayed spouse just as surely as a physical assault) are telling her to listen to those voices while trying to not dash her hopes of actually recovering her marriage this time around because even those who have been burned themselves know that sometimes even evil people, even serial cheaters can turn things around and become viable spouses in wonderful marriages...

So the question for you is what are you willing to do to make her fears go away. What are you willing to offer her in exchange for this round of another chance. Can't call it a second chance because you already had a second chance. Calling it a third chance is pretty pointless since that makes it simple to use the idea of a fourth one and a fifth...

One thing she needs more than anything else is the truth. I'm not talking about some trickle of admissions to directly asked questions or affirmed answers to questions asked while connected to a polygraph machine in some quiet office somewhere. What I am talking about is total and complete transparency. She should know where you are, what you are doing and even what you are thinking any time she decides to care to know. And she has to know it without asking for it. This means it is YOUR job to provide her with whatever she needs from you in the way of truth with no filters, no withholding of information, no self protections built into the way it is presented.

Everything you do, say or even think has to be open to her so that she can know it. Follow Dr Harley's Policy of Radical Honesty as if your life depends on it. You marriage certainly does at this point.

Also learn to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. Doing anything that she is not in agreement with, no matter how trivial it might seem at the moment will be a step in the wrong direction. It will say to her that your own selfishness cannot be overcome in order to protect her. It tells her that you simply don't care about her feelings and so all the words you might say professing your undying love, yada yada yada... will be drowned out by those bells going off and that voice saying again and again "Warning! Warning..."

Think of it this way. You set fire to the house. Your wife thought you were rebuilding it. Then she found out that you were really building another fire to burn it down again. The only way you and her are going to live in any house together is if you build her the house she wants this time around. You set fire to the last one, more than once. It's up to you to fix this. Her only part in what needs to happen is to give input into what color things need to be. If you don't know what she wants, ask. And when you have the answer, THAT is what you need to make happen.

You may not be aware of it, IHS. Your wife is an amazing person who has helped so many around here. She KNOWS what building a great marriage takes and has tried to do it all by herself for a while now. YOU not only didn't help but actually tore down what she was trying to build. Your turn, IHS. It's your turn to fix it and make it right. Start learning Marriage Builders and make it so ingrained that you practice it without thinking about it. Because unless you can make your wife so crazy head over heels in love with you that she wants to let you into her heart deeper than before, you pretty much aren't going to get past this mess...


Mark

Mrs W.

Thank you and I think your right on all counts. I did focus on the OW and if I would have given the energy to M than I woudlnt have had time for anyone else. I am a broken record, I have said this before, I have one messed up brain.

I read about that other book somewhere on this site, I wrote it down after I went to the bookstore and they didn't have Dr Hs book. Then they didn't have that one either. I was trying to create actions, take steps, do something.

Thank you for talking to me, I think I need some more 2x4's, as you guys say. It sunk in a little bit last night, and I think I get what the "angry mob" is suposed to do to my brain and I was up most of last night thinking about it. Maybe a real 2x4 would make all this stick and get my messed up brain in order.

So what date did you choose to participate in the online seminar?

Did you pay for it/book it yet?

Did you reserve a hotel room yet?

Did you make childcare arrangements yet?

Have you given her every last password to every account yet?

Waiting....

It looks like you are well determined to save your M. Give your wife time. It looks like she is one of the regular posters and i am sure she is more than keen to save her M otherwise she will not be on this forum
blessing

So, what you are saying is ... at this point recovery is all up to her?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. I've handed out that same line myself!

As long as you are thinking "If only she would give me a chance; if only she would let me try to do fun things with her," etc., your thinking is wrong.

You will obtain her enthusiasm when you earn it. And you can earn it, even if she doesn't have any for you right now.

It's all up to you.

Wow, what a stirring general you'd make. [That was sarcasm, IHS.] "1%"? "Even if we are no longer married"? That kind of talk makes you sound like a quitter. If you're not serious about this, quit wasting your wife's time. If you ARE serious, then drop the conditional language & the conditional attitude that underlies it. You need to be "all-in," all committed. 100%, not 1%. Conditionality has metastasized in your thinking. You're a guy who would be faithful depending on conditions. You need to start believing again in some unconditional absolutes. As in: there are some things you will absolutely no longer do. As in: there are some people whom you'll fight for absolutely. Or hey, you can go on living a wishy-washy, limp life, blowing whichever way the wind blows. It's your call.

Didja like that 2x4? Well, I'm not done.

"I am not functioning because I love her"? Drop the self-pity party. Your lame-excuse generator is functioning perfectly well. I think you're not functioning because you want this to all be over & want your slate to be cleared-off instantly so that you don't have to put in the WORK & exercise patience & delayed gratification. You're CHOOSING not to function. That's lazy, wimpy, limp, lame. (And notice, my friend, that there's nothing admirable about those attributes. How'll that go down with your admiration-junkie side?)

Read up. List your EPs, let her add to the list. POJA everything. Make changes. Don't expect credit anytime soon. Be humble, be good and be patient. It MAY still fail -- accept that this choice is also hers; but act as if it all depends on you. If you are not WILLING to do this, if you are not WILLING to act this way -- if you are not willing to make this leap of faith in her AND IN YOURSELF -- then it'll be CERTAIN to fail; and it won't be because you "can't function because you love her", it'll be because you aren't WILLING to put in the work.

Are you all-in, or not?

How hard is it to read everything? Go all the way up and down the page, and use the numbers at the bottom to access all the other pages and do the same to those. Get out a piece of paper and make a list of things you need to respond to and who said them. Then, follow the list to write your responses.


There are several somethings, and they are letting you know.

By the way, it's not a blog. No biggie, but I thought you might want to know that.

GREAT post, Mark! *applause*

Whoa -- I missed this the first time!

Give up on this, my friend. You need to stand here and die fighting for your marriage and go down with this ship. If the marriage is not successful, your wife will not be your "friend." And I for one will advise her not to be. Retaining you as a friend after having a failed marriage with you would be extremely painful for her.

Thinking of the possibility of your wife being your friend after a failed marriage with you is a ridiculous and selfish fantasy that ignores the fact that such a scenario would be extremely hurtful to her.

IHS,

Have you written a No Contact letter to POSOW?

Personally I like the old fashioned type, hand written by you so there is no doubt that it is from you and that you mean what you say.
The form of NC letter can be b_r's choice.

This NC letter needs to be approved and mailed by b_r.

Have you changed your cell phone # ?
I think it would be a good idea to get a new cell phone. I couldn't stand to look at the one that was used to talk or IM the POSOW, myself.

Our House asked if you surrendered up your passwords to all email accounts, have you done this?

Have you changed your email accounts so that POSOW cannot try to contact you?

Remove/change all venues out there that could break No Contact.

If POSOW makes an attempt to contact you, be honest and tell b_r.

I can't remember, does POSOW have a betrayed spouse and did you apologize to this man?

Well IHS, you may just *think* that I am right, but *I* KNOW it! Remember, sadly, I've been wayward myself, but THANKFULLY, I've come out on the other side and have better than 20/20 vision on the matter...

I also know that it is NOT your brain that is messed up - well other than any foggy notions that you may be retaining right now due to your actions - Seriously, this part of the deal is usually pretty tough for waywards to get at first - all those self-protective rationalizations and justifications get in the way - I know it was struggle for me in the beginning - but your unmet needs, or your childhood issues, or your annoyance at something b_r might have said or done, [insert any other more complicated and lame excuse here] did NOT cause you to have affairs - this is where I will become a broken record for you...

You have had the affairs because you have not been practicing EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS [boundaries] - You allowed women other than your wife to meet your emotional needs and you met their needs...and WHAMO, your feelings followed your actions! That's it - that's really all there is to it...

Pay attention to this:

The ONLY reason I will not have another affair is because I WILLINGLY PRACTICE EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS. That's it. It's really that simple. I will NOT put myself in temptation's way, because if I did, I absolutely would have another affair!

SHOCKED? Think Mr. W should be scared and running for the hills? Or do you think it's better that I KNOW this and ACKNOWLEDGE it and PROTECT Mr. W, myself and our daughter from it FIERCELY by practicing EPs that serve to guard our marriage as though a pack of wolves were hungrily and desperately trying to rip it apart? [Btw, Mr. W realizes this about himself as well and practices the very same stuff]...

You see, I am human, as are we all - I know that it doesn't matter how many needs of mine that Mr. W meets, how in love with him that I am or how bad I feel about my past adultery - that IF I don't protect my weaknesses by practicing EPs then I am STILL susceptible to having another affair - will power is VERY unreliable for humans.

You and I talked about "cheap flattery" - I told you that I am less susceptible to it today, and that's true - I am more self confident today because I practice extraordinary precautions - because I practice the policy of radical honesty - because I practice the policy of joint agreement and all other tenets of MB, and all those things are BEHAVIORS [ACTIONS] that serve to make me a far better person - those behaviors make me admirable - BUT if I stopped those behaviors and danced in front of temptation by allowing another man to flatter me and meet my needs then I absolutely, positively could still be enticed [tempted] and succumb to it [give in to temptation]. I CHOOSE otherwise. WILLINGLY, CONSCIOUSLY EVERY SINGLE MOMENT OF EVERY SINGLE DAY...That, and that alone, is what protects our marriage.

I am not saying that unmet needs can't make you more vulnerable to affairs, they sure can - BUT not even they can if you are practicing extraordinary precautions.

Does that make sense to you?

Mrs. W

P.S. There is scripture from James that both tst and smb quote around here pretty often that describes perfectly, imo, how a person allows themselves to become wayward...See what you think...

When tempted, no one should say, �God is tempting me.� For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

James 1:13-15

IHS...

Do me a favor, watch this video...the whole thing - really listen to it...



Mrs. W

ihs,

Following marcus's advice that you go through every post and answer unanswered questions, I am repeating my questions:

Woah, you are really going off down the wrong path if you've got ideas like this, though they are very common among the wayward.

Here is an MB thread called "The Fantasy of Divorce" that may help set you straight on the "I want to be friends if we divorce" idea.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2275600#Post2275600

AHEM!!! HEY, I SAID IT FIRST!!!

On 5/9/2010 I said:


So NYAH on you and markos, SC!

Answer ALL questions asked of you, IHS...

Mrs. W <~~~ admitted

[quote=ihurtsomeone I also want to have mykids grow up as happy as possible with 2 loving parents. And when I think about being old I see her there. I do love her, and I know my actions didn't show it, I do feel it. [/quote]

Print this out and tape it where you can see it everyday. Stop waffling and FIGHT for your M. You are basing making this work on how BR is reacting. It is time for YOU to save your M alone. Work on YOURSELF and fight.