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BTinTrouble #2371848 05/11/10 06:49 PM
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Wow... counseling on Monday.

He's not Dr Harley, but he made her feel comfortable.

He didnt pick sides.
He did a fantastic job cutting through BS and getting right to the point of things.
He isnt an MB Type, rebuild love MC, but he did not accept that she has "decided" to leave as a permanent and irrevocable decision and did NOT move to Divorce Counseling, which was a big fear I had.

He asked some great questions:
W said "he hurt me"
MC: What did he do?
W: Neglect, uncaring, not open, etc
MC: Hmm, that must hurt. It went on for a while?
W: Yes
MC: So you still moved down from ME to NC with him in Nov. So what happened since then?
W: IDK, it didnt get better. We stayed with a friend, 5 adults + 1yr old kid in a 3 bedroom place.
MC: Hmm, that must have been very stressful. Did something happen?
W: No, I just got tired of it. Of him not trying.
MC: But he's trying now?
W: Well, I guess, I dont know.
MC: I just want to say, for your own personal health and happiness, saying a thing like "I have decided I will never..." about almost anything can be a dangerous thing that closes you off from many possibilities. Decide, make decisions, but dont consider them irrevocable.

She thought about that a lot.

Also, he did a lot to help break her Wall down. I was not being allowed to fill any ENs since she was "uncomfortable" with me being nice to her. He asked her whats wrong with being nice? Even if he WAS doing it just to keep you around, why not just take it and be happy someone is being nice to you? You say you have made your decision, nothing he does has to change it, so why feel uncomfortable? You decided. That doesnt mean that if you sleep together, have sex, or do anything that you have to change your decision.

He also mentioned that when she is rude and disrespectful to me because she is uncomfortable with me doing something nice, that our son sees that and its maybe not the neatest example.

So he may not be the BEST counselor... but

today, we both woke up feeling like crap. I am getting sick, and she had a migraine. Two of our best friends who are dating broke up last night and I was a shoulder for them, so W and I talked about that. We were on the couch together, and she likes it when you run your fingers lightly along her skin as it makes her feel better, so I did that, and then after about an hour talking, I gave her a massage for about another 40 minutes.

So, about 2 hours of UA, Affection and Conversation deposits, both of which are huge for her AND -

She at one point said she was thinking about the whole just because we sleep in the same bed doesnt mean she has to change anything, and therefore maybe it would be ok. I told her, honestly, its what she is comfortable with.

I have to earn trust back, so I dont want to push things for her or anything. I have done enough telling her what she needs for the last 5 years. I need to let her be herself and decide for herself what she wants. I can make myself something very nice to keep around, but thats about it.

So far, so good.

Thanks again for all of you guys and your support. I know I am using this thread for a kind of "repository" to write stuff with many double triple or more posts. Thank you to you that leave advice and encouragement and all the rest that share this with me since I see the "read" count going up all the time.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2371919 05/11/10 09:20 PM
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Thanks for the update, BT, hang in there!


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2372109 05/12/10 10:40 AM
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BT, just finished reading your thread after you posted on mine. Our situations have a remarkable amount of similarities, with the primary (unfortunate) difference being that my wife asked me to move out six weeks ago. We have three kids (5, 2 and 1), and we do spend some time together during the week, but I get virtually no UA time with her, so no chance to fill her LB or meet her ENs, and, as you saw, she is the one that brought me to this site so nothing I do flies below the radar.

I really appreciated Mark's post, and have read others from him over the past weeks. Once again, my struggle is what to do when my wife has all but given up, and we are living apart.

Combined with that, I was intrigued by Mark's statement that and EA exists if your spouse is getting EN's met elsewhere at all. Is that the case, Mark, or anyone for that matter, if numerous people as an amalgam, are combining to meet a person's ENs instead of their spouse?

Anyway, what I can tell you BT is that you've found the right place, and are getting great advice. Please keep your nose to the grindstone.

On that note, I do think you should be cautious about "traditional" MC. Dr. Harley has written on this at length, ( I can't find a link now, but will keep looking) and has said to be wary of a counselor who may want to delve too much into family backgrounds etc. It can turn into lots of sessions (and $$$) which may not get to the real issues.

I spent the money for an hour with Steve Harley, and it was worth more than the time my wife and I spent with our "traditional" MC who couldn't wrap her head around MB concepts.


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HBS,

I think that any person who allows many people to meet their ENs is a walking affair waiting for the biggest deposits to be made into his or her love bank.

Since most people don't think of an affair except in terms of physical adultery, until they reach the point where they are at least considering that, they would in most cases deny an affair is actually happening. So people begin to use the "we're just friends" line and even convince themselves that nothing inappropriate is going on.

The problem with this results from the fact that if someone makes us happy consistently whenever we are with them, eventually the person themselves become a directed stimulus that causes us to have a directed response and that directed response is that we begin to feel those happy feelings whenever we even think about that person. This is what we call falling in love and is how Dr Harley says we fall in love with someone. This is the Love Bank model in its most basic form, if we are happy whenever we are with someone, and they never do anything to make us unhappy, then before long we are happy just being with them.

In reality, we become addicted to the feelings provided for us by that person. They provide the stimulus that causes us to have a pleasurable experience often enough that we begin to equate the pleasure with the person rather than the stimulus they provide. At that point, we feel all the symptoms of withdrawal whenever we do not get to be with that person including sadness, depression, irritability, fear of loss and all the rest that make breaking an addiction so difficult for most.

Also be aware that what begins as a group of people hanging out, going out drinking/dancing/socializing (even attending technical seminars and such) can place two people together into a setting where their ability to spend time with each other is not called into question, since a group is present. This does not diminish the risk of an EA and can actually make it more likely by allowing justification for the contact to continue long after it might otherwise be considered acceptable.

Many affairs begin with a group of people hanging out together in a bar after work. The whole group is always present and maybe even the whole group starts with what they consider good-natured flirting and teasing. Especially if the group includes single who begin to pair off at some point, a couple can carry on an affair for a long time without anyone even noticing that they have begun to spend extra time together or that they linger longer in their glances at one another etc.

Just because a group is involved does not preclude two members of the group from falling in love with each other even if the only contact is within context of the group as a whole.

And the real trouble comes from the fact that seldom do even the affair partners recognize that they are allowing themselves to fall in love with each other until one night when they get to be alone and the sparks seem to fly and they don;t know how they got there. People have affairs because they don't do anything to prevent having one. It is poor boundaries, plain and simple.

Mark [/tj]


Mark1952 #2372342 05/12/10 05:14 PM
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Mark, I always appreciate your insights, and this most recent one has helped me make a bit of a paradigm shift in my thinking.

I don't believe my wife is having a PA, but she's not denied the existence/possibility of an EA. We live lives that would make such an EA with one man unlikely, but a "community" EA with friends, co-workers, members of her various business groups is certainly an option. I'd never thought if it that way, but the way you describe it, it seems no less dangerous, especially given our current situation.

I don't want to hijack BT's thread, but any advice you can give me on my current situation would be welcomed. (my thread here) http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2355419#Post2355419



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Welcome to "my" thread, no worries, love hearing from you guys.

Not much new today, odd work day, in at 7:30, home by 10am, then had to leave at 3pm till 7:30pm. Still got to help entertain our boy and since she had a migraine still today, that is always nice to be able to do for her.

Helped her with some resume service questions to help her find a job. She has become much more motivated about getting a job since she decided she wanted to leave, but even if she stays, I do believe she needs to have something besides just sitting in this house with our son, waiting for me to come home. I dont think it has to be a job, it could be 2 days a week volunteering, or yoga sessions or whatever, just to get her out with some other people to do something that belongs to her that she can CHOOSE to share with me rather than what she has where she is in the house and basically has nothing.

She has said that she in part wants to leave because she never "made it" on her own, we got married when she was 19, and she wants to have that. She doesnt want to be dependant on me.

I know, obviously, that in theory she doesnt have to leave me to achieve that, but she needs to learn and see that for herself I think.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2372486 05/12/10 09:45 PM
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Oh yeah... and the counselor we are seeing right now is free. So its not a $$$ thing at all. Its free for me anyway, my insurance doesnt even pay. Part of being prior active duty.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2374251 05/15/10 10:42 PM
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K, another long day of work tomorrow.

My phone broke, so havent been able to call anyone and chat.

Feeling very down, and kinda, IDK, that feeling about an hour after you have been slammed in the privates, where your stomach is sick.

Nothing REALLY bad happened today. At dinner, she made a comment about going for a walk, and how she USED to leave phone in the car but now she cant since SOMEone freaks out.

This is about a time a couple weeks ago when she went out, I thought she was just going to her appointment and coming back, so about 2 hours after I thought she would be back, I called one of her friends to have them try call her, with pictures of her laying raped and stabbed in a gutter running through my head. I realized this was unlikely, but at the time I figured better safe then sorry.

Anyway, she referenced that, so I asked, calmly, are you mad at me for that?

She said, 'Its just rediculous, I told you 3, probably more times I was going out.' This happens a lot. She says "why didnt you X?" I say I didnt know you wanted me to. She says, "I said it 4 times." I have some documented service related hearing loss, and I know I struggle to hear her at times, but I guess I just dont get it.

So, in response at the dinner table, I said "I sure hope we can work that part of communication out, because it seems to happen alot where you tell me things 3 times, and I just dont hear you."

Her, "Yeah it would be nice to have a husband that actually LISTENS to me."

I honestly have no idea why this happens. Things it COULD be:
1) She is lying and doesnt actually say things
2) She says things, I cant understand her, so I ask, and she yells at me "If I am talking to you I will make sure you hear me." So then other times, if I dont understand, I hesitate to ask if she was talking to me or herself.
3) I just dont hear her maybe?

So, 1 is unlikely. She might be exagerating where "4 times" is really once, but still, she is probably telling me. Two might be part of it. I am coming to realize that the way she makes "requests" or responds can often times be called verbal abuse, so when I am told "I will make sure you hear me" I really do hesitate to ask for clarification. This could be fixed if we can enforce some sort of rules of negotiation / communication where we both feel safe. And of course it could be 3, but that could be fixed by effective communication, which includes asking for confirmation after saying something. Not just saying "grab the cup while youre out there" and assuming the message was recieved. I know I maybe 50% of the time dont acknowledge when I heard something, so thats something I can work on.

There, this post was a success. I learned one more thing I can work on.

I feel a bit better now.

God it hurts so bad when she makes comments about the "coming divorce" and splitting up our possessions, or not caring where something is set up in the house since "I wont be here soon anyway."

Ouch...

Another MC appointment on Tues.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375158 05/17/10 07:03 PM
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I cant seem to think a thought that isnt loaded with DJs:

My wife doesnt want to try.

She is trying to hurt me.

She makes no effort to be pleasant.

She purposefully does AO's to hurt me.

She says "I dont want to talk in front of our son, because we will just argue and fight" so that she can justify not resolving issues.

She makes comments like, "I guess it doesnt matter where you put it to me since I wont be here soon enough anyway."

She says, when I asked, that she doesnt do things to hurt me on purpose, and is in fact lying.

She is a selfish person who doesnt think of anyone but herself in the decisions she makes.

She doesnt care about how what she is doing hurts our son.

She is unwilling to take personal responsibility for her actions, her happiness, and her future. She wants everything bad the last few years to be my fault, and when she leaves me it will all be better.

She doesnt want to see MB / MC type stuff I find in research because it shows her how selfish she is being and makes her feel bad.

She doesnt like me being nice or helping because it makes her feel bad for being so mean and spiteful with her acidic hurtful comments.

She doesnt want to learn to resolve conflicts in a way that leaves us both happy, because then she will be "proved wrong" in her decision to leave.

She is only keeping this decision because than she "proves" to everyone how capable and independant she is, when in reality, the ONLY PERSON in her life that doubts her capabilities is herself.






OK... I dont really believe all these things. They are hurtful things I would say in an AO. I know there is truth buried in the DJs, but I havent figured out how to pick it out and present it in a respectful complaint, that abides by the principles of POJA. Basically, I dont know how to say that your actions hurt me, lets figure out a better way we can both enjoy.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375290 05/17/10 11:40 PM
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(reposted this in a new thread, since I may need it moved to another section, not sure yet)

Ok, so I went through cell phone records tonight. My phone is broke, so was checking on their site for info, and figured I check out usage since I was there.

Here is a break down of my Ws usage. There is the OM, and a few other people for comparison. This OM is a guy I work with, we lived with him for about 4-5 months and is considered a friend, he is 50 something years old.

May 4rd to today:
901 mins / 15hrs with OM
24 mins with her mom
129 mins with everyone else

Apr 4rd to May 3rd:
3534 mins / 58.9hrs with OM


Mar 4th to Apr 3rd:
1133 mins / 18.8 hrs with OM
61 mins with her Mom
149 with me


Feb 4th to Mar 3rd:
6 mins with OM (we lived in same place as him through this month)
140 mins with me

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/17/10 11:40 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2375515 05/18/10 11:34 AM
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I am glad you moved your thread BT.

Is this OM married too?

BTinTrouble #2375537 05/18/10 12:06 PM
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Ok, finished with the non-MB MC appointment today. Next appointment is on Friday.

Our MC pointed out that we have been doing a "1 up, 1 down" relationship, and that its not healthy for either of us. For me, I am currently acting in the "down" and he suggests I not do that, and for her, being abusive and angry, that being 1 up, is not healthy for her either, and we should both stop, not just for our marraige but for any future relationships.

Basically, hes saying "giver and taker doesnt work, you need POJA" but not using those terms, and didnt actually give a plan.

I am kinda disappointed. I agree that I need to not be a doormat, but he basically said "dont stand for it." Well, just saying "F* you Im not gonna take that" we arent building a relationship. I would have hoped for not just the "dont settle for anything, dont allow one of you to gain at the others expense" but also a "heres how to do it." Thats where I think Harley's are probably much better, because they focus on action and plans. Explaining that one of us giving in to the other isnt a good way to solve problems can take about 5 mins. Explaining and holding us accountable for how to STOP doing it is what I would pay for.

I recognize that we cant "give away the farm" but we STILL dont have any real help in how to talk to eachother without both trying to take something.

I am trying. It is very very difficult because I feel like if I stop pulling, she jerks me over because she doesnt stop pulling.

Things like "Im sick of you, Im leaving for a few hours," and then leaves me here, with our son. I love taking care of him, but I am not ok with her assuming she can just do whatever she wants and I will be here.

I told her after counseling about the minutes on the phone. I told her I dont appreciate it and am hurt by it since it shows that before she ever told me she was leaving, before ever trying to talk to ME, she went and talked to someone else. No matter what it was about or who it was with, I told her I dont have any problems with her having friends, I have problems with her not talking to me.

She says she doesnt care she wants to leave.

Ok, I guess fine... I cant make her stay.

But I wont be a doormat. I will not fight with her. I will not do AOs, and I will try avoid DJs, IB, SDs, and I will be honest. I give her all the notes I take about stuff and whatever.

I am not done. I want to be married to her, I want us to be happy, and for our son to be happy, and for me to be happy. I recognize now that that is impossible if I try to do everything to please her. I should have seen it earlier, you guys have told me, but I am slow. I see it now. She was the Giver for years, and I was Taker, now the rolls have been reversed, but I recognize that me Giving isnt going to satisfy her or me.

I just dont know what to do different now.

She was kinda upset at the MC today. I am curious about if maybe she would be more open to an SH call. I have no idea how to bring it up. She doesnt even want to be around me right now.

I am also very upset that she talks about our house, our money, our son, but its her car, and her phone, and her time. Even if she doesnt WANT me to be the one fulfilling her Financial Security, she is allowing me to do it. She likes being able to leave our son with me and count on me for Family Commitment, so she can take "her car" and go out and have fun and ignore us and her problems and meet her needs with other people, but as soon as I want to talk or work something out, oh doesnt have the time for us.



Some excerpts:

M: I went through the phone usage, and discovered you spent over 50 hours last month on the phone with Tim. I feel hurt and betrayed by this.

W: Why?

M: Because it has been going since before you said there were problems, so I interpret it as you deciding to, instead of talk to ME and work on US, ignoring it, go talk to a friend and let them make you smile.

W: You cant make me feel bad for having friends. Just cuz I found someone who would make me smile when you made me cry, told me thank you when you didnt, or made jokes when I was sad doesnt mean I did anything wrong. Hes just a friend. What right do you have to tell me I dont get to have friends.

M: I dont have a problem with you having friends. I have a problem with you ignoring us in favor of friends.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375543 05/18/10 12:10 PM
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Apparently, she called OM shortly after she left.

He just came over to talk. Basically, he wanted to reassure me they were just friends. They talk, they share experiences, just friends.

I said its fine. That to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the other females we lived with. To me, the reason I told her I was upset about it was because she chose to not talk to me, to not work things out with me, and instead tried to be happy somewhere else.

Basically ended on, well, ok then. He said he doesnt want to be in the middle, but he tries, when she's saying things sometimes to, to try show her where she is maybe going about it wrong.

IDK.

I guess I read here that opposite sex friends are no-go. I am sure they are right, but I ahvent learned it and really assimilated it yet. I guess its more that to me, an EA is just as bad as a PA, and so therefore, the EA can be had with anything that you choose to place at a higher level of importance than your spouse and marraige.

I consider my video game problem to have been an EA, just as bad as her and her OM Friend. Neither is ok, but its not "not ok" BECAUSE he is a guy, its not OK because its an EA.

I dont know if that makes sense.

I need help I guess.


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Still_Crazy #2375547 05/18/10 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Still_Crazy
I am glad you moved your thread BT.

Is this OM married too?


He has been married I think 23 years (?) and is about to go through a divorce as well. I have only heard his side through what my W tells me, but she sounds kinda nuts. Of course I am sure there are 2 sides, so I dont really judge.

I hope that answers it.


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BTinTrouble #2375560 05/18/10 12:35 PM
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BT i am sorry to tell you but waywards will lie, lie, and lie some more.

I believe that your wife is at least in an emotional affair with this man and if i were you i would expose all of this contact to the OMs wife and she if she KNOWS about all the texts they have and the time they are spending talking to one another.

If they are just friends then you would have known about them texting each other all along and would not have had to snoop to find it out.

Also ask your wife to let you see the texts, if they are truly just friends and it is all innocent then there should not be a problem with you reading them (i bet she will say something about you dipping into her privacy or something along those lines).

Please read all you can on this site about affairs and Plan A and Plan B and EN's and everything and keep posting.

Still_Crazy #2375567 05/18/10 12:38 PM
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Also now that you have "told them" so to speak of your thoughts, they will probably go into hiding and make you look like a crazy man.

Do not worry it is pretty much the satndard script for a wayward.

Still_Crazy #2375601 05/18/10 01:14 PM
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BT-What your WW and OM are doing is called gaslighting. I also talked to OW and she assured me that they were "just friends." I installed a keylogger and found out much differently. It is normal for OP to try to talk BS out of exposing them. EXPOSE. DO NOT WARN ABOUT IT, JUST DO IT.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
Scotland #2375616 05/18/10 01:24 PM
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He just came over to talk. Basically, he wanted to reassure me they were just friends. They talk, they share experiences, just friends.

I said its fine. That to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the other females we lived with.

Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor.

BT, let me ask you a question. And I'm serious.

Why did you marry a female? Why not marry a male? Why did it matter?

Please answer - this is neither a joke nor sarcasm.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
Mulan #2375677 05/18/10 02:31 PM
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I said its fine, that to me it wouldnt matter if it was him or one of the females we had lived with.

I kinda paraphrased frmo what I told him. To clarify, I said, I dont care if she has friends. The way she ignored me and talked to anyone other than me, and relied on anyone other than me to meet her needs, rather than INFORM ME of our problems and attempt to work them out is why I feel betrayed and upset. Its not that hes a man.

As far as I am concerned, its cheating already, because she values someone else more than me. The physical act is just a bland, mediocre icing on an already ruined cake.

I dont know, maybe I am messed up and just havent had anyone have a PA on me and therefore have no idea how much worse it could be.

I dont know, at this point it feels like its already an Affair, regardless of physical or not. I am already hurt. Its like having your leg amputated at the knee or the thigh. Either way you dont have a leg, so its not really relevant.


Why I married a woman and not a male: I need SF from a female. A male wouldnt do it for me. God made her part specifically for making mine feel great, and God does some pratty darn good work.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375685 05/18/10 02:46 PM
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BT: Okay, so you do know the difference between males and females. Do you think the OM does not? Do you believe he thinks your wife is a male and so he will just treat her like one of the guys and you don't have to worry about them having sex?

Do you realize that "She's Just One of the Guys" is something that BWs hear *all the time*??

You are bending your brain into a king-sized pretzel trying to convince yourself that an EA isn't sexual. BT, an EA is just PRE-sexual. It's not a "friendship" because if it was, there would be no reason to hide it from you or exclude you from it.

And yes this IS relevant because the early stages of an EA are like warning sirens that should make any BS get off their backside and Do Something about it (like expose).

Sitting back and trying to convince yourself that it's okay, OM is just treating MY WIFE like she's one of the guys is just going to cause you nothing but agony while he moves in and takes over because he knows you will do nothing.

And if the b*st*ard ever comes to your house again - !!!!

She IS in an affair and the only one who has a chance of stopping it is you.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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