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BTinTrouble #2375690 05/18/10 02:49 PM
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She did try to say something about going through her phone record and violating privacy.

I said its not private, and if you arent doing anything wrong, what is there to be defensive or upset about?

She got real thoughtful, and seemed convinced and said, hmm, ok I guess.

Its things like this that make me pretty sure it is an EA, and she naively just doesnt understand what it could turn into. That she really believes they are "just friends," and hell, the OM very well might too, but they are down the road already and could so easily wake up and say, "what have we done?"

I dont understand this gas lighting thing. Sorry.

I have read all of Infidelity, it was the last section of the site for me, so have read all of the Basic Concepts and QnA articles. I have read and still have HNHN and check parts of that.

I dont know what to do.

Plan A involves meeting the needs and showing how much "better" home is while setting boundaries. She already was and is so far in withdrawal that I am barely allowed to meet needs.

Plan B is removing yourself so that the cut is felt. I dont know if it would be felt, again, as she is so far in withdrawal that she might not care what I felt.

We talked today after she came back home.

We spoke of communication and disrespect. I explained that when she says I could never make her happy, she is saying I am unable to be good enough. It is not possible. She is also saying that I am responsible for our divorce, since she cant help that I am incapable of not being good enough.

However, when she says, as she occasionally has, I MIGHT be able to change, but she doesnt want to wait around, or that she doesnt trust it to be "real" and lasting, then that is different, in that she is owning her part of the decision and not making a disrespectful judgement on what I am capable of.

She said she would have to think about that.

She also had stated that she was sexually frustrated for years, but I didnt know this until a couple weeks ago. I occasionally thought maybe there was an issue, and had asked her if we were good and everything was ok, and she always said, yes we are great, until 2 weeks ago. We talked about this again today and a few other similar things. We talked about how easy it would have been when these things were new problems for them to have resolved and we both agreed that it would have been better if we had settled them before.

I said our marraige is like a beautiful flower, that we have been allowing these little pieces of trash to land on it, until now we just have a big pile of trash that seems too big to move. But every time we get close to it, and pick out one piece of trash, we both recognize how "silly" it is and how easy it could be to resolve it.

She was giving positive reactions and participating and owning this whole last paragraph right up to the end, when I said something about how "you say you dont trust me right now because of the past, the history, well in the same vein, every issue we have stopped to look at has been something that we could easily resolve, which makes me doubt that there really is anything in the whole trash pile we couldnt fix if we just took it piece by piece."

She didnt shut off or anything, she just got that thoughtful look again.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375721 05/18/10 03:13 PM
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BT,

I am so sorry you are here. I hate to be the first to tell you, but I don't think she is taking those evening drives to a meadow, or the beach or whatever it is alone.

I am sorry but it is almost certain she and the OM are having sex and that is why she doesnt want to with you. It is also why she doesn't want you doing her laundry I am afraid...

He "says" he is getting a divorce huh? I wonder if his wife knows. Your wife is caught up in the fantasy of dumping you, he gets a divorce, and they move in together with your kids.

anything and everything she says now is to manipulate you to help her achieve that outcome. The "gaslighting" is the lying and manipulation they are both involved in.

Save your evidence in a safe place. Come up with a plan to expose this affair to anyone and everyone, particularly those who could have an influence on your WW.

The OM's wife is the first target. It may be interesting to hear her take on it as she may be unaware that he was cheating at all and didn't know about a Divorce at all.

Exposure is like shining the light of truth on an ugly secret and is the only real effective way to bust up the affair. Until she is cleared from her addiction to the OM she will not let you meet any emotional needs, she will spew wayward crap and have no interest whatsoever in reconciling with you. Exposure is not something you threaten, she will pre-emptively spin you into a lunatic that is a control freak. You do it nuclear style to everyone all at once. More will come on here to give you tips.

It sounds to me like the timeframe you lived with these people was not as stressful for her as she says, because it was during this time she probably fell in love with him and they started the affair.

SWW

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Oh,

And I wouldn't put any stock in those "thoughful looks" or her willingness to let you look through her phone or whatever.

She is a falling down lying wayward drunk that will do anything to meet up with him no matter what.

If that means showing the occasional sign that she is "thinking about" working on the marriage but needs some "alone time" to think...that means she is going off to hook up with the OM and is manipulating you into thinking if you only just back off she will come around on her own and start to wake up. Not gonna happen.

Most of us have been in your shoes and know the panic you are in right now. It was the worst thing that has ever happened to me in my life and I think many would echo that sentiment.

We are all here for you.

SWW

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MB thread explaining gaslighting:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=146375&Number=1954184#Post1954184

BT, your WW and her OM are *both* gaslighting you. I hope you will take a look at this thread.


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
Mulan #2375943 05/18/10 10:34 PM
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Read the thread. Cant click the links, says "Link Not Found" or some such internet error, sorry.

Ok, so I still cannot really believe they are having a PA. I will keep teasing the idea, but regardless, as I said, the 60hrs in 1 month on the phone with someone before you have even told your husband there was a serious problem and you were seeking a divorce is at the least an EA.

Exposure is the next thing. I have told 1 of my closest personal friends about all this, and they were floored at the time spent on the phone. Not just with the OM, but how LITTLE was spent with anyone else. I am sure the same reaction would happen to anyone I showed this too.

I want to show this to 4 people.

Her dad, her mom, her brother, and her best friend from back in CA.

Maybe more, like her uncle and stuff, IDK. IDK how far to take it.

I dont want to accuse W of a PA, because I have no evidence. I also dont think I need to, since every sane person will say the evidence I have already of the EA is bad enough.

I dont know what I really expect from these people. For them to tell her she is wrong? Is that it? What do I tell them? Do I tell them she is having an EA and show the evidence? Do I also tell them she has stated she will not try to make our M work? Do I tell them she has said she will only go to counseling so she can say she did it, that she picked out a house for us in the place she wanted and waited till about 5 days after we closed to say she was going to seek a divorce? Do I tell them about her verbal abuse? Do I tell them how I neglected her?

I DONT want to force our problems on other people, but I also feel that if we lived anywhere else, either near her friends or mine, that this would be a much more different situation. The phone records show how little she talks to anyone BUT the OM, including her old friends and family.

I really dont think most of them even know she is planning to get a divorce. I think she is able to perpetuate her fantasy because there is no one around to tell her to wake up.

She has said things like last time we went to my home on vacation that even my friends noticed what a POS husband and father I was. I feel I havent been a very good husband, but I have been asking my family and friends, and NONE of them have said they ever thought I wasnt a great husband or father. Maybe incidences where they thought I was rude or thoughtless, but over all, very good. I think if we were living near and interacting often with her friends or mine or our familys', we would have people to say, "look, you need to appreciate what you have, take responsibility for your actions, and stop being such a child."

So I guess I am looking for thoughts on that.

Oh, and do I do letter or email or doesnt matter? And do I send the "proof" in our phone records or what would you suggest there?


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2375991 05/19/10 06:43 AM
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I would tell them that at the very least she is deeply involved in an emotional affair and it is destroying your marriage. Tell them you have evidence if they don't believe you, but that you are trying to save your marriage and ask for their help. Short and sweet.

Expose to anyone that can have an influnce on her and him. That definitely means OM's wife.

BT I hope i am wrong, but i just can't see your WW disappearing all the time at night to go for these drives alone and not hooking up with the OM.

Add the fact that she wants to divorce and it's all your fault etc. etc. and the thought of sex with you is repugnant really makes me think things are farther along. You do need to keep snooping for more evidence though as well.


Read up on what Dr. Harley says about exposure, how it's done and why it is necessary.

SWW

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Ok, so, the initial conversation about the phone record, right after our MC oppointment, didnt go so well, but it ended good (IMO). After that, I went to work, got home at midnight, passed out on couch exhausted with contacts in, right eye is all pink and hurting, just got off work (7am - 9pm) but I get tomorrow off. Friday is another MC appointment.

Today, I didnt really get to talk to her much, but I called her at lunch, said hi, how are things, everythings ok? I do want to know that everything is ok, but I also am demonstrating that I think about her and she and our son are important to me.

She folded my clothes and made dinner for me so I am eating that now. I called her on the way home, since it was a lil before her bed time, and thanked her for the things she does and told her how nice it is to have her help.

Next week, Mon - Friday, I am on a trip litterally across the country. I am in NC, traveling to WA. When I get back, she is going on a camping trip with her cousin.

One thing that is good about this OM being someone I work with, there are many times I can be certain that nothing is going on in that instant, since well, he is at work with me. He is going to a training school during the same week I will be gone. It doesnt stop the phone calls I guess.

W also told me the other day, she met "someone" at a park she took our son too. She told me because she said one night "you have to clean up dinner because I wont be here." Why? "Im going to meet a friend I met at the park yesterday."

She wouldnt tell me even if it was a boy or girl. However, she got a call around than, and thats one of the reasons I thought of checking the phone log while I was on the site anyway, to maybe see if there was a new number on there.

There wasnt, just 4-5 calls to the current OM around the time before and after she left. Then, yesterday, she let slip that the new friend was a guy (said "he" in reference to the friend, despite her being obviously careful of pronoun use since she first told me, obvioualy a slip eventually was inevitable). Anyway, I am not even sure there IS a "new" friend, since right before she left is a couple incoming calls from the current OM, and then a couple longer calls while she was gone.

Why call OM when you are hanging out with a "new friend."

So, no concrete proof of dishonesty yet, but it makes me wonder.

I do not want to catch her in a lie. I want us to be happy and married. However, if she is lying to me, I would REALLY like to catch her once, since I can then expose that.

SWW, thank you for your last post especially about what to "expose." I dont really have anything right besides the phone records and my "side" of the story, and I dont want to do anything like try to skew it just to make her look bad.

I want to expose everything to people, even including the fact that I havent been perfect. I would like to emphasize that I WANT to make things better. I dont want her friends to tell her anything that they dont honestly believe. If her mother thinks she should leave me, than I want her mother to tell her that.

I may not be right. Even if I AM "right," that doesnt mean anyone has to do what I say or anything. W keeps saying "you arent going to change my mind." I keep telling her I dont WANT to change her mind. I CANT change her mind. Only she can. She has said, in many different ways, that she has felt forced to do many things in whatever fashion, like I have prevented her from being happy.

I would LOVE for her to realize that her happiness is HER responsibility, whether anyone else works to support it or not, and that NO ONE will MAKE her happy. Whether she stays with me or goes elsewhere, it is something she will have to learn if she wants anything better. I want to be a wonderful husband that provides a safe haven of love, that meets her needs and that she can trust, but even if I do all those things, it wont make her happy unless she chooses to be happy.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2376536 05/20/10 08:32 AM
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BT...you are in serious denial.

When you leave for your trip, OM will be keeping your side of the bed warm for you.

Get yourself a VAR and put it under the bed. Or a hidden camera if you've got the stomach.

God, this hurts to watch.

BTinTrouble #2376549 05/20/10 09:05 AM
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BT-

Really glad the conversation ended well, especially when it didn't start well. If you think about it, that is some progress. We all know how to do start poor, end poor. We all got that one down.

I was thinking about the OM issue you have. People are different even though we may all have some of the same needs and feelings that drive some of the same behavior.

I get the exposure part for PAs. I don't really agree with the length to which some take it but that is there decision. On EAs I think it is a finer line to walk. We all get our needs met by every interaction we have, even posts on forums like this. My H has taken things to a level where I am not in a PA, or an EA with any OM, but now it is that I am getting my needs met by the combind group of all people in my life. And yes, that is true when you think needs are just that, needs. But I think too that rushing to an exposure can do more damage than good when it is less clear.

I do however agree that it is not good long term for her to have this OM or NF as a primary person meeting her ENs when they are males. Exposure of an EA is a way of not stepping up your attempts at meeting her ENs but a way of trying to force her out of her way. If she is new to her EA, she won't even agree with you that she is having an EA, and it could push her closer to either OM or NF. Gives them all something to talk about, and agree with, bond on, that she an EA is not happening.

I think her EA is very early so think before you jump to exposure. Maybe for a short time period try more of you instead.

So your W has the need to talk and she is getting that from OM and maybe "new friend". You are talking to her and that is great. I don't know if it be helpful if you increased the amount of the time you talk...about anything...aslong as you are talking to her. She can't be talking to OM or "new friend" (NF).

I also like that you agree that you can't change her mind and you tell her. It sounds like she saysthis often so this is a key to her thinking and when we repeat things, it is because they are important. When we listen to what othes say, we hear the unspoken.

She may be saying those things because she wants to be heard, and you do that by hearing her and confirming what you heard with honesty. I also like that you follow up with your honest feelings no matter how vulnerable that makes you. Keep it about you. You don't want to change her mind, you want to change yourself and your home life and how you interact with others. And yes, you'd love if after doing so, she decided then that you could be a H she would want to be with.

Maybe make it about making a decision (enpower her) and not changing her mind (she was wrong). Because maybe for her, she needs to know that if she decided to come back, and she "changed her mind", she didn't change her mind about how things were and that they were crappy for her (and I am sure for you but we are talking about her). And you aren't asking her to change her mind about how she views those times because those times are past.

Also was thinking, I know MB says 15 hours of UA without kids. I had read other posts saying your time with W and child is not UA. But when she won't give you that, I believe positive time is better than no time. If she is spending time with you, she can't spend it with OM or NF. A child can and is that tie that binds. And no one loses if you can sopend time with F by spending it together as a family. Maybe think of some fun things to do with son and W that you can suggest, away, out of the home. I don't think doing it with anyone else would be helpful, but she will get something from every interaction with you even if it is for right now as a family.

Be there. Be open and honest with her. If you can't get UA, get some time. Be consistent and predictable. Respect that what she feels is what she feels, even if it is just right now.

It's a hard road but you walk with a purpose and it is clear.

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BT i do not mean to sound nasty, but please read Chrisner's Guys Come On thread.....

I really think you need to heed the advice you have received about snooping further and exposure.

I agree with MaiMai that you are in denial and that your wife is in this way further than you think.

Please do not stand back and just let it happen.

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Way to enable the enabler, LorG!

God's Blessings,

Say


Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
saynomore #2376796 05/20/10 03:12 PM
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Well, I dont know guys. I am of 2 minds.

If LorG is right, and its just friends, and I go nuts on exposure and accuse her of all kinds of things to her family and friends, I agree it would push her away. She already calls me controlling.

But if you guys are right and she is hoodwinking me, then exposure is a must.

No one will be warming my side of the bed, since it hasnt been my bed since mid-April, but I get the point. I really cant believe a PA is going on, especially that it could go on in my house, but you know what, maybe.

I think a lot of people on here have been hurt really bad, but that deosnt mean I should discount the advice.

I think I will get th VAR and put it in her room.

I have been thinking a lot.

I was the crying, clingy, please stay, emotional basket case, always bringing up the relationship for about a month. Then I was what she calls the "hovering puppy" until the present. She says I try to do things to "make her happy," and she doesnt like it, but when she tells me to stop I get "all butthurt."

Thinking about it, and what our MC said, I think I ahve realized something. My W makes me happy. Doing things for her makes me happy. Our marraige didnt always make me happy, but I didnt know what to do, and now that I have a source of info, I know it COULD make us both very happy. However, a positive thing that is going to come out of this no matter what is, I dont need to be hurt by the things she does. That is something that I give her.

Our MC told us we should stop working on the marraige and work on ourselves first. That we were trapped having one person getting what they want, and the other not. That we should focus on being "self-actualizing."

Pissed me off. I agree that he is right about us working on ourselves, but I DO believe we could do that together.

Regardless, I do need to not be the groveling guy, since its usually just the way I try to manipulate someone into doing what I want (get her to stay.)

Reading Neaks and NPs threads showed me what a good Plan A should look like.

I would like to make a Plan A. I have friends from back home moving down here (in the USMC now so he getting stationed here) so that will help with support. They know now what is going on. I felt I had to tell them at least since they were going to stay with us for a few days.

A huge thing is that in the military, we moved all the time, so W has no friends in the area besides OM. Even her old Cali friends all have kids and stuff and dont have much time. Her Dad not having a phone last 4 months has left her really with no one to talk to. She has been allowed to think of all these things and not really bounce them off anyone.

So.

This weekend, before I leave I will get a VAR and put it under the bed. Maybe a second to put in the couch. That will cover my snooping. Since OM is the only real danger, he doesnt have an email or a computer, and they freely talk on phone / visit in person. Even if they arent doing anything physical, it could confirm that.

Next week, while I am gone, I want to spend a lot of time on here. I want to really develop a Plan A, start a Plan B (just in case), and prepare and Exposure Letter. Even if its "just" an EA where they arent doing anything, I know she has not really told anyone anything, except a short conversation with her dad where she told him she was leaving.

He told her she should work on it. She said she has, and shes done. He just said, well it sounds like you thought about it, so I dont know.

Other than that, it doesnt seem like she has told any of her friends or family. She has made comments to me about how "once everyone finds out" she is upset that they are probably gonna think she is crazy since I "seem like such a great guy" and how its going to "suck for" her that none of them really know how terrible I am. I think she knows that most of her friends and family, even if she can convince them that I am horrible, are going to ask "well have you told him?" "Is he willing to work on it?" "well then you need to give it a try for your sons sake." and she doesnt want that.

So thats it, I dont know if that is a "good reason" to spray our "personal business" to our family and friends, or if I am just selfishly throwing a fit since I am not getting what I want.

I told her I dont "do divorce" and that I still want to work on this marraige and on me. She says she doesnt care, she is done.

So I wonder if I can write an "exposure letter" to friends and family just basically says something about:

We are having problems, and in Fall 09, agreed to work on them once we "got settled in."
W has suddenly, unilaterally, decided to leave in the near future, stating no chance of working on anything.
I still want to try, and have been.

I want it to read in a manner that shows that I am taking full responsibility for my failings, that I dont think she is being a bad person, that I think she is hurt and protecting herself as best she can, and that I am willing to do nearly anything to make this work.

The goal would be to convey the gist of whats going on, and allow her friends and family a chance to say what they want to her.

I dont know, what do you guys think? Obviously if the VARs reveal a full blown PA, then its a whole new game, but if its "just" a naive EA, IDK, thoughts?


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2376814 05/20/10 03:34 PM
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@ StillCrazy - thank you so much for that recommendation.

It is something I have been toying with.

Ok, I still dont know of a PA, and not much evidence (to me) says there IS one. I read in Neaks thread "I realized I didnt need the proof, I just needed to know."

Well, I dont know. I know I wont need enough proof for a court, but I really dont know yet about a PA.

But I am going to fight for our marraige.

I fear starting my fight, and confirming any thought that I am the controlling domineering husband that never let her do anything, that she has described me as.

In reality, she has basically aquiesced to anything I wanted without complaining since we have been married. On my part, I didnt really pay attention enough to note the signs that she wasnt happy with decisions, and I didnt seek POJA. I didnt even know what POJA was. So now she is at a point where she says "I dont need to do what you want, I can make myself happy," total 180. I think the 180 came because she thinks it will be easier to just give up on us, blame me, and not have to take responsibility for her side of the fence.

I want to fight, for her, us, and our son, but in a way that allows her to come back.

I dont know what to do.

My previous post includes the beginnings of a "plan." How do they look for now?

It is very hard to find time on here when I am watchign the kid so she can go out for the day with OM.

Here are my balls.

Man I have messed so much up...

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/20/10 05:41 PM.

Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2376933 05/20/10 06:00 PM
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OK, BT, I'm looking for the plan here and frankly I don;t see it. I see some attempts to discuss a plan and a bit about which kinds of plans you might try, but you need a PLAN that gives you things that you will do and things that you will work at and goals to set and a time line for how long you will continue.

You snooping plan might be a real step in finding out the truth, but remember that even "just" an EA can devastate a marriage. That is true even for one that in which the affairees have stated their love for each other, declared the relationship to be off limits as long as either is married and committed to not crossing some imaginary "line" that they themselves have defined, which usually indicates having repeated sexual rendezvous. They'll discuss the current marriage and its problems, what each thinks is the ideal relationship (usually feeding each other enough baloney to feed the First Cav) and create a fantasy relationship they can share together that isn't based on anything either of them actually knows to be true.

In your snooping, be sure to listen carefully for signs of that kind of activity...

One more word about an affair in general here; it is an addiction. As such it can be identified in part by the willingness of the addict to give it up. People who are "just" friends don't need the qualifier for the word friend. "Just" implies justification and a right to maintain that friendship even at the risk of losing a marriage or other legitimate relationship.

What are her top Emotional Needs?
What can you do to specifically meet any or all of those needs?
What Love Busters do you still struggle with?
How do you plan to do away with them?

What things can you do to default into being with her enough to actually meet her ENs?
How can you show her affection and that you care for her without telling her or trying to make points?

What expectations do you struggle with that get in your way of acting directly to address her ENs and get rid of love busters from your own life?

How can you demonstrate to her that you can be the man she has longed for and has dreamed about her entire life?

What ways do you make too easy for her to walk away from you and not easy enough to work with you on restoring the marriage and making it better than it was before?

This is a PLAN, BT. You lay out objectives, goals, benchmarks, and details of how to accomplish each one. Then you begin to act instead of reacting to what she does. You fix yourself, make yourself more valuable to her than even a fantasy man of her imagination. You be the husband she wants, desires and needs so that she will want you, desire you and need you in her life.

Why did she fall in love with you before? BE THAT GUY NOW!

Don't talk about it. Don't think about it. Don't argue about it. Do it and be it...

Is only do or do not...

Is no try...

Is no wondering...

Is no considering...

Is no contemplation...

Is no might be or might not be...

Mark

BTinTrouble #2376987 05/20/10 08:01 PM
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I just realized, a VAR wont "catch" them while I am gone, since OM is going out of town on training too. I can verify it because its for our work, and if he doesnt go, everyone will know, and its in AZ (we are in NC).

But I guess it could catch the phone convo's.

However, at this point I start to feel a little dirty. Help me out with this.

I feel like "spying" is being untrusting. Especially when I dont really think there is a PA, and this activity is mostly to confirm that there isnt one (at least in range of the VAR's...).

I feel dirty because I DO trust her still.

She has been "sucking it up" for at least 3 years. We have a family decision, she would say what she wants, I would say what I wanted, if they were different, I would try to "convince" her my way was right, and she would say "ok."

I know now that that cant work. I know now that I am not going to be that anymore.

But that doesnt matter for our son until she wakes up.

EDIT: I was typing this and screen was up when I hit "post" so I jjust read Marks post.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/20/10 08:03 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2377003 05/20/10 09:12 PM
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Love Busters:

Selfish Demands: TRY make our marraige work. To her this is a Selfish Demand, she has said many times not everything is about me. She says she has tried, even though I think she was just suffering through wearing a fake happy face and I was just too stupid to see it.

Angry Outbursts are gone, I havent had one, promised her I will not fight with her, havent fought. I stay calm and composed, even when I am reeling inside, and at worst, ask to talk about it later.

O&H - So, ... yeah, I want to put a VAR under her bed and in our couch, and I am thinking of sending Exposure letters to her friends and family all at once, without telling her. I dont know. Seems not open to me. She has specifically stated that she doesnt think its appropriate to tell people "our business." I really, at this point, dont care who knows. I think her hiding this stuff and not talking to anyone else about it is allowing her to convince herself that she is "doing this for our son" because her son deserves to see her happy, and that I can never be good enough and am incapable of change.

DJ - I cant tell if the last sentance above counts as a DJ. I know our marraige can work if we both try. She doesnt want to try, even though she does a GREAT job reading all kinds of stuff about kids and SHOULD know that divorce is really not that neat for a kid. Other than that, I am doing good with DJ's, I think.

IB: See O&H. Other than that, I let her know what I am up to, where I am at, when I will be home. Last few days she occasionally has called when she is out to tell me if she is on her way home or something. IDK why this started, guilt maybe?

She said she feels divorced already.

ENs - I meet what I can as I can. I do not want to be the doormat though. She gets mad when i do things like grab her plate for her or open the door for her. I dont know if I should keep doing them anyway or if I should stop since maybe they are Annoying Habits now or something. Its like she LOOKS for reasons to be mad at me or something.

I do plan to look up family things to take our son and her to, to make time for us. Other than that, she watches TV if we are home together, or she leaves for a while. I dont like it that she leaves, and I plan to tell her that I am not her babysitter so she can just leave whenever she wants.

Plan:

Tomorrow, MC appt.
Weekend, couple family events already planned we will both be attending. I also want to make an effort to be available for talk and try to keep it light. I dont want to bring up M stuff. However, she has started trying to talk about "who gets what" kinda stuff. IDK how to deal with that. I plan to get 2 VAR and put them in the couch and under her bed. This scares the hell out of me, since she will probably leave or try to tell me to leave, if she finds them. I guess at this point, she says she is planning to anyway, so what is there to lose, 3 or so more months of what we have now?

Next week, I am gone on my trip. While gone, I am going to write letters to our friends and family, laying it out. I am going to try to remain objective, and will post them on here. I will mail them before I get home. These letters will just be saying that she is saying she is done, how things have gone, and what I am doing, with an invite for them to get her "side."

When I come home, I will check the VARs. If they indicate anything beyond friendship, even evidence of a more serious EA, I will write a second letter, exposing THAT to everyone.

I have mentioned I have friends coming down. They will stay with us for a short amount of time, until they get a place. Should be only a couple weeks.

At that point, I know I have a place to stay if I choose to leave. But IDK if I should. What does that accomplish? I cant fill ENs if I leave. But I cant fill ENs now to a large extent since she has walled herself off. Just stopping LBs hasnt just made her warm and willing.

I feel like I am not going to be able to get through to her. Like involving her friends and family is the only chance to get her to wake up. I know she loves our son. I know she is smart and giving and loving. She seems to be purposefully ignoring anything good we have and have had, and focusing on any negatives to justify. I know at our first MC, when the MC asked "so what happened that brought you here," and she had no answer for him, no specific thing, just all the little things that we hadnt attempted to resolve, I saw how that bugged her. That she already knows she is standing on a house of cards and that it doesnt really make sense.


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BTinTrouble #2377036 05/20/10 11:41 PM
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BT-

I do think the VAR is a good idea. It will help you know something hopefully, one way or the other. We have IP cameras installed inside our home and did so for the oversight of our nanny (and we told each of them we had the cameras). But they are in the home, live, so either one of us can really log in anytime on each other. You can buy them with or without sound. You can log in online anywhere and watch/listen. You could always consider that.

Don't feel guilty about not trusting her. You are concerned about her actions. Do it, because you sound like you are doing it for the right reasons. If she is not having an EA and you find that out, then you can drop it again for now and focus on meeting her ENs and sending more time together.

If you find something, PA or EA, you can start the exposure, which I do agree is a good technique to end an affair should there be one.

If you don't find anything, for me, it would be hard to start an exposure campaign. If she is not having an EA, I can see that in her current state, it may look as if you are controlling again for sending out letters to her inner circle. That could have effects you may not want. If she is (but you just didn't find it that time) but still expose, then I think it could serve the same outcome as the PA situation.

Just my thought, likely not MB supported, but if you find nothing because you just did not get anything on the tape, you could send a letter, just not an exposure letter, like you mentioned in your afternoon post today.

When we got married, there were people that vowed to stand up and help us and support us. When they do not know what is going on, they can't intervene. If you do not know if she is having an EA with OM or NF, maybe it would be good to send a "help me, I love my W" letter. I like the general start to what you wrote on something like this.

These people in your life can and should know that 1) you are having problems, 2) she has indicated she wants a divorce, 3) you do not want a divorce, 4) you love her, 5) you are working on your things, and 6) you are asking for their help to talk to each of you, listen with their hearts and try and help heal the marriage.

Consider posting it before you send if you want feedback from MB.

Every action has a reaction. When we do not have all the information we need, it sure is hard to feel like you can make the right decisions.

I also wanted to add that I personally think men and women can be friendly. I think they can be friends. I know, not MB. But I do NOT think those relationships should EVER be outside of the M relationship. I do not think extended periods of time meeting to talk is healthy when it does not involve you as well (common shared events). I do think those boundaries can easily get blurred and it can easily end up in an EA or a PA. So pay attention to the issue and do take some action.

The VAR is a good start I think. You have talked to OM. Talk to OM wife (i think she also lived with you guys?) and tell her about the time your W and OM talk/text. Maybe she knows all about it and he is sitting there with his W while he is talking to your W. Maybe she has seen the texts. Maybe she can now help investigate and see what she can find out if she didn't know about it before. Could you go to the park and see who she is neeting when she meets NF? Can you ask a friend to do it for you? And plan for your letters based on what you learn.

Good luck. Don't feel guilty. Distrust works to protect us as long as it is within reason. You have that reason.



BTinTrouble #2377042 05/21/10 12:08 AM
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IB: Maybe she is doing this because you have been. Actions, not words, are good indicators of intent. Even if it is out of guilt, it is a good change.

EN's:
Interesting take on the doing nice things may now be an annoying habit. Here is what I understand, correct me if I am wrong. She feels you have been controlling. You likely have been in some/many areas. Where she is at right now, maybe the plate or door things reinforce the control? Sometimes control is subtle but for those who have felt controlled, it can be changed in the small things.

You think grabbing her plate or opening a door is nice and sweet. If she feels it is controlling, this is an easy power/freedom to give her. Would be easier to let her get her own doors than t let her go out with OM. It is not meant like "then get your own darn door". But if she has felt/been powerless, find neutral ways to give her some power. Instead of getting her plate, say something like "do you want to grab a plate and watch this movie"? It might sound dumb, but its not. Her common theme is on power imbalance. It is real for her.

HBS tends to get me a plate, dish it up (sometimes even adds the salt and pepper on stuff), and give it to me. For SOME women, this might make them feel special. It does not for me. I like to get my own food, in portions I prefer, and dress it with or without salt or pepper as I want to. I had shared my frustration on this several times over years. It was real for me. It took a long time for him to stop doing it and it only happens now usually on holiday meals. It is a little thing but can be a big deal.

She may be looking for reasons to be mad at you, or maybe she is just expressing herself (poorly possibly) on things that do make her mad, but she was just quiet before. Maybe you can see it this way...she's talking to you. She is telling you what makes her mad. She cares enough to tell you. That has meaning. I can tell you that. So listen, carefully. Keep your own list. Find ways to avoid those "things" if you can. They can be signals to solutions if you listen.

Just thought - your friends coming in. Did you both agree to them arriving and staying with you? Is she just saying ok but feeling controlled? Is this a topic you could use to invite conversation? If you didn't ask her before you agreed to it, ask her now. If she has issues with it, then use that to find a solution you can both agree on. Maybe they can stay in a hotel and you can help pay for it? Maybe they can stay somewhere else? Etc. If she is happy they are coming, this is a non-issue. If not, could be used for improvement.

Just thoughts.


BTinTrouble #2377057 05/21/10 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Love Busters:

Selfish Demands: TRY make our marraige work. To her this is a Selfish Demand, she has said many times not everything is about me. She says she has tried, even though I think she was just suffering through wearing a fake happy face and I was just too stupid to see it.

Stop talking about relationship talk and making your marriage work and trying to educate her. Just be a strong confident guy that is attractive to her.

O&H - So, ... yeah, I want to put a VAR under her bed and in our couch, and I am thinking of sending Exposure letters to her friends and family all at once, without telling her. I dont know. Seems not open to me. She has specifically stated that she doesnt think its appropriate to tell people "our business." Why did you threaten to expose? You should never tell in advance, it gives her the opportunity to paint you as a lunatic. I really, at this point, dont care who knows. I think her hiding this stuff and not talking to anyone else about it is allowing her to convince herself that she is "doing this for our son" because her son deserves to see her happy, and that I can never be good enough and am incapable of change.



IB: See O&H. Other than that, I let her know what I am up to, where I am at, when I will be home. Last few days she occasionally has called when she is out to tell me if she is on her way home or something. IDK why this started, guilt maybe?

She said she feels divorced already. redflag

I am sorry but this is to justify her ACTIONS.

ENs - I meet what I can as I can. I do not want to be the doormat though. She gets mad when i do things like grab her plate for her or open the door for her. I dont know if I should keep doing them anyway or if I should stop since maybe they are Annoying Habits now or something. Its like she LOOKS for reasons to be mad at me or something.

Of course, she is having an affair predicated upon and justified by the fact that she has painted you as a creep. Read more on Plan A, it does not mean becoming her butler.

I do plan to look up family things to take our son and her to, to make time for us. Other than that, she watches TV if we are home together, or she leaves for a while. redflag redflag I dont like it that she leaves, and I plan to tell her that I am not her babysitter so she can just leave whenever she wants.

Plan:

Tomorrow, MC appt. Sorry probably worthless while she is in an active affair.Weekend, couple family events already planned we will both be attending. I also want to make an effort to be available for talk and try to keep it light. I dont want to bring up M stuff. However, she has started trying to talk about "who gets what" kinda stuff. IDK how to deal with that. I plan to get 2 VAR and put them in the couch and under her bed. This scares the hell out of me, since she will probably leave or try to tell me to leave, if she finds them. I guess at this point, she says she is planning to anyway, so what is there to lose, 3 or so more months of what we have now?

Next week, I am gone on my trip. While gone, I am going to write letters to our friends and family, laying it out. I am going to try to remain objective, and will post them on here. I will mail them before I get home. These letters will just be saying that she is saying she is done, how things have gone, and what I am doing, with an invite for them to get her "side." No, you arent asking them to get "Her side." You are exposing the affair and asking for their help in saving your marriage. The fact that she is having an affair and that it is detroying your marriage is not a subject for debate, and "her side" is irrelevant.

When I come home, I will check the VARs. If they indicate anything beyond friendship, even evidence of a more serious EA, I will write a second letter, exposing THAT to everyone.

I have mentioned I have friends coming down. They will stay with us for a short amount of time, until they get a place. Should be only a couple weeks.

At that point, I know I have a place to stay if I choose to leave. But IDK if I should. What does that accomplish? I cant fill ENs if I leave. Why in the world would YOU leave??? You aren't having an affair and destroying your marriage and family, she is! Do you want to lose your children? Because that is what will happen if you leave. It is called abandonment.But I cant fill ENs now to a large extent since she has walled herself off. Just stopping LBs hasnt just made her warm and willing.

I feel like I am not going to be able to get through to her. Like involving her friends and family is the only chance to get her to wake up. I know she loves our son. I know she is smart and giving and loving. She seems to be purposefully ignoring anything good we have and have had, and focusing on any negatives to justify. I know at our first MC, when the MC asked "so what happened that brought you here," and she had no answer for him, no specific thing, just all the little things that we hadnt attempted to resolve, I saw how that bugged her. That she already knows she is standing on a house of cards and that it doesnt really make sense.

You really need to re-read Mark's post about getting a plan. You are halfway trying to implement MB principles here but you will do more harm than good if you do them wrong. Have you read the Book Surviving an Affair? You need to. You don't really need more evidence, you have hundreds of hours of phone calls, thousands of texts and the admission by both parties that they are leaning on each other for emotional support. That my friend is what is destroying your marriage and that is what must be exposed to the entire world. If you do not get a plan, grow a spine and stand up to your WW this is not going to have a happy ending. I tell you this out of concern, not harshness or meaness. I was deployed with the military during my WW's A and exposure broke up the affair. To be honest though, i was kinda like you, too afraid to really use the stick part of plan A and i ran out of gas kissing her rear end at 8 months having never really stood up to her. Read Gerkaguards thread. He exposed to his WW's chain of command in the military in order to bust up her affair and it worked. That is the kind of spine you are going to need.

You must get a list of names to expose to, write a short note or email and post it here for comment and then start emailing an dialing everyone, and I mean everyone. You are allowing your WW to control the situation.

SWW

Last edited by sickwithworry; 05/21/10 05:13 AM.
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BT,

Have you called the OM's wife to tell her that her husband is sleepinng with your wife yet? Have you told her he came to your house to talk about his relationship with your wife?

So your WW and her lying POSOM say he is getting divorced? Have you asked his wife about that? Please, get her educated and possibly on your side!

SWW

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