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BTinTrouble #2378018 05/23/10 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
He has been over for dinner. He watches our son sometimes for us, borrows us his truck, I lived with the guy too. He is a friend.

In a week or two re-reading these words will make you taste the vomit at the back of your throat.

MelodyLane #2378031 05/23/10 07:48 AM
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If you turn out to be right MaiMai, I will be the first to let you know.

Thank you for trying your best to warn me.

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/23/10 07:49 AM.

Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2378113 05/23/10 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Though last night she said if I invade her privacy like with the phone minutes she would leave right then. Whether she leaves now or later ir really not a big deal, so I dont want to "drive her out," but I am not going to stop working on myself and our marraige.

Working on yourself is cute and winsome, BT, but you don't really have the luxury of doing that right now. Your marriage is in crisis and needs your attention. I am very concerned this has dragged on so long without you taking some stronger action.

The longer this goes on, the more entrenched the affair becomes. It is obvious to me that this is an affair, and even Mark told you this some time back. Yet you have done nothing to whatsoever to bust up this affair as far as i can see. In fact, you seem to be in denial and actually CONDONING the affair and allowing this man around your child.

You need to STEP UP the snooping, not scale back. Your wife does not have the right to the privacy to have an affair. Everything she does is your business.

Will a voice activated recorder in your home get you the intel you need?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #2378118 05/23/10 11:58 AM
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How old is this child? Is he old enough that he would remember that you did this to him? I will WARN you strongly, that if he is old enough to remember this he will not remember your neglect fondly. I was allowed to go around my father's mistresses when I was FOUR and I DEEPLY RESENT the moral confusion it instilled in me at a very young age. Kids instinctively know right from wrong and when adults won't validate that feeling, they learn to DOUBT THEMSELVES. I concluded at a very young age that I must be a very stupid girl.

BT, I would remind you that you have a moral obligation to PROTECT your child from harm and allowing him to be around his mothers lover is gross dereliction of duty. You will be as guilty as SHE if you don't step up and protect this child from this exposure.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2378121 05/23/10 12:03 PM
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Mel,

there's hundreds of hours of phone calls, she disappears to drive alone to meadows and the beach and will not let BT go with her. The OM came over to their house to assure BT he was not having an affair w/his wife, they just supported each other and talked. She has the wayward script down pat.

This is an EA for sure (prob PA as well) and an EA will destroy your marriage same as a PA will BT. Get some more evidence, though I think you have enough already.

SWW

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I have to agree, SWW. I don't understand why he is not doing anything to stop this.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #2378160 05/23/10 02:23 PM
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Hi BT,

I just came across your thread. You're getting loads of great advice here from Melody and everyone, and while I am not a veteran as such I would like to offer my observations in the hope that you will become more proactive.

First BT I think you're getting too hung up between the EA and PA. Both are destructive to any marriage. If my favorite baseball team gets beaten today 10-0 instead of 15-0 (which could have happened) should it matter? In either case they were sufficiently whacked!

"I dont even feel like I could say "Your EA with OM is destroying our marraige," since it was pretty much gone prior to OM. I could definately say "Your contact with OM is hindering any chance of recovering our marraige," but she doesnt want to recover it, so therefore there is no problem to her."

I feel in your above statement you have provided both a summary of and a solution to your situation, but you seem to fail to see it. I believe you said earlier that your wife began disengaging from you and your marriage back in Nov. of last year. Well what has happened since is that she now has an OM and that is further aggravating the situation.

Hypothetically take the OM out of the picture and that there is no affair. You are working hard, as you are now, to learn her top EN's and to satisfy them the best you can. I.e., the changes you are making. Would you be able to draw her back into your marriage and encourage her to recommit - maybe, maybe not. But imho I believe you would have a much better chance than you do now.

Now, with the OM in the picture by your own admission of keeping him as a 'friend' you yourself are contributing to the "doesn't want to recover it" feeling on her part. Why should she want to recover her marriage? Again imho it is because she now has an attractive alternate who is able to satisfy her top EN's. By allowing her A to become more entrenched as Melody tells you, you are allowing him to become even more of an attractive option, and you even less attractive. Any btw, there is No reason under the sun to consider this guy as anything close to a 'friend'. He is now your enemy. He has intruded into and is sitting there in the middle of your marriage, and is preventing you from having any chance of recovering your marriage!

The solution, listen to the people here and attack and kill this affair using all the tools that are available for you here.

In addition BT, you mentioned that your W doesn't have many or any friends now after your move (except for OM who is NOT a friend). Well, get creative. Encourage your W or even take her to clubs, organizations, groups, and functions along the lines of both of your interests so both of you, especially her, can meet and make friends with people who are not a threat to your marrage. These can be any kinds of groups or activities, such as square dancing to PAC's to volunteer activities.

Well my three cents, and good luck BT.

Tom


Tom2010 #2378215 05/23/10 06:12 PM
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Thank you Tom.

Ok, Mel - yes, a VAR would give me what I need assuming its there.

Son is 16 months old.

Mel, your arguments along with some stuff I been thinking about has kinda kicked me in the [censored].

I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

I dont. I control me.

My son controls no one.

I believe in my heart that my wife and I can be happy. I am willing to do what it takes to get us there.

The fact that Wife doesnt want to, even if I CAN understand where she is coming from and empathize with her, I DO think she is wrong.

I DO think her leaving will cause our son pain, no matter how "friendly" we can become. I am changing myself for me, my wife, my marraige, and my son. But I havent been fighting for my son.

Plan (such as it is at this point)

1) VAR will be in place, I get back Fri and W is gone for weekend camping with Cousin (verified on facebook etc, unless the cousin and co are covering for her... which I dont think is the case).

2) Letter's going out this week (sent while I am gone) to friends and family apprising of the situation. I will write them during my trip and post them here for feedback and thoughts before I send them.

3) I need to figure out a way to broach this subject with W respectfully. I dont want to LB, but I need to tell her that her "decision" that this wont work without giving it an honest try (my opinion, she says by suffering and waiting for me to change for this long constitutes trying) is going to hurt our son, no matter how "amicable" our divorce might be able to be, its going to be worse for our son then us staying together and honoring our commitment and vows. As such, I am not doing Divorce. Also, that her allowing OM to fulfill ANY needs rather than coming to me with the problems she had is breaking her vows and is a form of affair.

Some way to say that without DJs and such. Preferably some way that allows her to accept an SH appointment. We have another MC appointment on Tues after Mem day (the day after she gets back from camping.)

And possibly more depending on what the VAR has on it.

Thoughts?


EDIT: PLEASE dont give up on me people... I just read a post on NPs thread where someone said vets had stopped posting because they were giving advice and it wasnt being taken.

Please dont let me, or even NP, not taking your guys advice make you not want to give it.

If you have good advice, and you feel we need to hear it, dont DJ us by saying "they arent going to listen anyway." If you want to post something, post.

Obviously, you dont have to post. This forum isnt married to us newbs and hasnt made any formal commitment to us. Just... dont let the idea that "they wont listen anyway" stop you from posting.

It may feel like yelling at a wall, but the walls have ears, and sometimes, they just need the right words to open those ears. Please dong give up on us

Last edited by BTinTrouble; 05/23/10 06:30 PM.

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BTinTrouble #2378228 05/23/10 07:04 PM
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Nobody is giving up on you here BT. I really wish you could find a way to get out of leaving town this week.

It seems you are coming around to the fact that there is a monster attacking your marriage, and that is the addiction your WW has for the OM.

Your thoughts of trying to "talk to your WW and explain to her why her actions are going to hurt your son" will not work BT. You are going to have to man up and slay this dragon, and that means keep collecting intel, and then massive nuclear exposure accompanied by a solid Plan A.

SWW

BTinTrouble #2378233 05/23/10 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

BT, you are real close to having folks give up, I am sad to say. That is because you seem to be in denial and are not even close to getting it. The Titantic is sinking and you are focused on the peeling paint in the girls bathroom. If you don't wake up and start doing something soon, the ship is going to sink. No one here can help you if you refuse to wake up and start helping yourself.

It seems your main goal is to avoid conflict at all costs, rather than save your marriage. The above statement confirms my suspicions.

The main reason I post to people who don't listen is because I am scared to death that other conflict avoiders will read this thread and think it is the right way to handle an affair. It is hard enough to help conflict avoiders on this forum without them seeing stuff like this.

"You are controlling me' is the favored refrain of WAYWARD wives and those who engage in any independent behavior when her H objects to her abusive behavior. If your main goal is to avoid that complaint, then you had better move out right damn now, becasue you will never make it. YOU ARE NOT DOING YOUR JOB TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE IF SHE DOESN'T SAY THAT.

You should be DEMANDING that she end her affair with her OM, and you are here wringing your hands about whether or not she will view you as "controlling." Check this out:

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
From the new book by Dr. Harley Effective Marriage Counseling pg 94:

"Granted, there are situations when demands may be necessary in marriage. During a spouse's affair, for example, I recommend that the betrayed spouse demand there be no contact with the lover. If there is continued contact, separation or even divorce would be the logical consequence. While normally demands don't work, in this case there are no reasonable alternatives because thoughtful requests are even less likely to separate lovers."

Sound a little "controlling" there?? You bet your [censored] he does!

But it seems to avoid this kind of confrontation you have ALLOWED your wife to spin the relationship as a "friendship" and you have gone along wiht this PRETENSE even though board veterans told you weeks ago this was an affair. If you had any doubts, you could have ruled them in or out weeks ago. BUT THAT HAS NOT BEEN DONE.

The goal here is to save your marriage, NOT to avoid her anger at all costs. You cannot run screaming from the room like a GURL when she screams "you are controlling me" or you are not going to make it.

Your wife is having an affair with this man, Sir. A woman does not sneak off at night and have hundreds of texts and emails with a man unless she is having an affair.

What astonishes me is that you have been here for several weeks and have done ABSOLUTELTY nothing to save your marriage. NOTHING. The situation grows bleaker by the day with the OM coming into your home at will and now she is planning a weekend rendevous without you, no doubt to meet the OM.

Quote
) I need to figure out a way to broach this subject with W respectfully. I dont want to LB, but I need to tell her that her "decision" that this wont work without giving it an honest

You don't try to reason with a falling down drunk. That is a fools mission. You get the goods, expose the affair and then tell her the OM is NEVER TO SET FOOT IN YOUR HOUSE AGAIN. He is to never be around your child ever again.

You must DEMAND that she end her affair with the OM and stop piddling around here. If you don't stand up and start doing something, the OM is going to replace you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #2378234 05/23/10 07:21 PM
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Son, you have been here long enough to get it. Frankly, I am not hopeful. People here want to help you, but if you REFUSE to help yourself, this is hopeless.

I want to remind you that your best thinking got you into this mess, it won't get you out. Most of the ppl posting to you have SAVED their marriages using these tactics.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #2378237 05/23/10 07:37 PM
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Hey BT, and you're welcome.

From what I have seen here please be assured that if you at least show some recognition of and action on the advice people give you they are not going to give up. Like with any group, either online or face-to-face, people get busy or they may choose who they can relate to on here. It's not a matter of personality.

Anyway, if you have Melody Lane on your side believe me, from my limited experience with this person, you are being coached by the V. Lombardi of MB! This is not tongue-in-cheek or facecious (sp) or anything like that - it is based on first, my own screwy preference for sports analogies, and second, just that she simply seems honest and extremely knowledgable and insightful. If her name is attached to your thread in terms of responses you will get others to join in.

Best of luck and prayers BT,

Toom

Tom2010 #2378241 05/23/10 07:40 PM
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Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tom. smile



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2378246 05/23/10 07:50 PM
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Melody,

Oooops, please don't say that. I follow the Brewers baseball team and a few days ago the owner gave the manager a 'vote of confidence', which means he will could be fired in a few days due to their losing streak.

*s* I just simply would rather have you take it as respect for what you have gone thru and what you are doing to help people now.

I am smiling now because BT is going to see this and wonder what the hell is going on on his thread, and I don't normally post asides on other people's thread but just had to do it tonight....*s*

Tom

Tom2010 #2378272 05/23/10 09:37 PM
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BT i am assuming that you are getting ready to leave on your business trip. Please make sure you have something set up (either the VAR or a PI) BEFORE you leave on this trip.

And Mel, SWW, and all the others here posting to you are some of the best people on this board so please listen to them.

An EA is just as bad if not worse on your marriage than a PA. She is looking at you as this not-so-great husband that she maybe should not have married and looking at this other man as her knight-in-shining armor. And the longer you let it go on the better her knight will look, regardless of how he really looks.

During an affair both people are on their best behavior and they tell the other person how right they are about everything and they only show their best side so they both look absolutely wonderful to each other right now.

Also try your best to get the OMWs name and contact her to at least verify that they are "getting a divorce" because like i said i would pretty much bet that she has no idea about that little piece of information that effects her whole life too.

You really need to quit denying that it is already an affair even if they have not "done the deed" so to speak (which i doubt is the case sorry to say)......


Still_Crazy #2378276 05/23/10 09:54 PM
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Yeah, Tom, I liked the "take her out to meet other people so she can have a chance to make acceptable friends and listen to the vets" post.

This last one I dont understand...

=D

Quote
I have been trying to "respect" my wife and not try to control her. But me not doing things to avoid controlling her is a DJ. Its assuming I control her.

I dont know how to word this "better", but Mel you seemed to take it as me justifying not doing things. I meant it as an admission. I recognize that what I WAS doing is not appropriate. That I need to DO something and not worry about how she percieves it.

Unfortunately, I cannot get out of this trip this week, however it gives as good an opportunity as any for the VAR to get stuff. I got an Olympus WS-400S, and got lithium battaries to help it last as long as possible.

Bedroom or Living room? I am thinking bedroom... mostly because its easier to hide it on the bed frame and because well.... bedroom: if I want to catch "the worst" that would be it.

All you guys saying "hung up on EA or PA" are right.

Ok, I have a question...

If I start going off about OM to W, with the demand that he go away, she is going to get angry. This doesnt bother me. However, she may do things and I may start to get angry.

Am I supposed to get yelling loud and Angry Outburst? It doesnt seem right, but I dont know, maybe it gets the point accross? My "thought" is that no, dont AO, just calmly and assuredly state it. Let her blow up or whatever, and stay calm.

Thoughts?

Oh, and I am not saying people are giving up on me, NP or any other newb, just asking that they dont.

I really appreciate the time and damage to your guys blood vessels you are suffering to deal with me. It must be stressful being so slow...

I am testing the VAR right now, to see if the sound of my speakers triggers it, so i can set it so that the TV doesnt make it go off...


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2378278 05/23/10 10:05 PM
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Thanks for listening, BT. And I forgive you for messing up my blood pressure. grin

Of course you don't react to her anger with angry outbursts. If you get angry, don't react with anger. Be calm and FIRM and don't allow her to drag you into a fight.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


BTinTrouble #2378279 05/23/10 10:09 PM
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Ok, another thing...

She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

I DO however know how hard it is for a H/Father to get anything from watching my own father fight my mother for years and years.

I am wondering, does an Affair make it more likely that the faithful spouse gets custody?

Right now, this is what is upsetting me the most, especially after Mel's repeated 2x4s to my skull to wake me up, is what her actions will show our Son. He may not remember it, but he will see the after effects.

He will see that "I swear I will do this till I die," actually means "until I dont feel like it anymore."


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2378280 05/23/10 10:09 PM
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SWEET!! Thanks Mel, I got one right... NO AO's!!


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2378284 05/23/10 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She says stuff like, "I guess I will be taking this item since I will have Son and will need it," about a lot of things as we unpack. She has also acted as if its a forgone conclusion that she gets Son. She tries to say that its because I am the H and I have a job so she will be the more available parent, but she plans to work as soon as she can find a job and I happen to not think its a forgone conclusion.

She acts as if this is a foregone conclusion because you have not disabused her of this notion. Get the goods on the affair and then explain to her that she will not be leaving with your son without a court order. And if she files, you will be filing on grounds of adultery for full possession of the home and primary custody of your son. If you are in a fault state, you can even have the OM called into court to give testimony about his affair.

She needs to be told that you will NOT cooperate in any divorce action. She needs to understand that HELL IS COMING and that you will defend your marriage and your child from her adultery.

An affair does make it more likely that the father gets custody.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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