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thanks hold!! I just laughed so loudly that someone came into my room to see if I was okay. I'm supposed to be packing up my classroom.

Maybe that's the secret to me WANTING to do DS...just make it sound like SF

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ROFLMAO!

Luri, that was my turn for a coworker to peek in to see if I was seizing or something...

and COTF! I think you've planning that for a long time, when the time was right...yet...what, no pig airline planned to go with those resorts?

HOLD brings out the joyous in us, methinks.

LA

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Hmmm...pig airline...

DANG IT!!!

I can't believe I didn't think of that.


You're just jealous because you can't hear the voices in my head!
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No session today. I will have to set the alarm tomorrow.


When you can see it coming, duck!
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Friday night I gave Mrs. Hold an article titled "Is Your Man Bad In Bed" which had 6 suggestions for helping your partner do a better job. I asked her to let me know if any of it applied to us.

Sunday morning Mrs. Hold admitted that nothing I do works for her. Not fun to hear, but not unexpected. I asked her what worked, and she said she didn't know. I said she should experiment and report back, since she can't teach me what works if she didn't know. She did not seem enthusiastic about experimenting. So I guess we will just continue fumbling in the dark. At least she is willing to allow me to continue fumbling.

And I recognize it was a big accomplishment on her part to admit I don't rock her world. Even more so to consent to sex despite it. Perhaps we can even work on makign it better for her.


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Did she say "nothing YOU do works for me?" Did she say something anyone had done in the past HAD worked for her?

I'm glad you guys are making progress, but please realize, Hold--I do not think that it is your ability/inability. My guess is that your wife is turned on only rarely, and that she doesn't enjoy physical intimacy much at all... It's possible that even if she starts out feeling sort of aroused, that she doesn't really know how to ride the wave.

You could have all the techniques in the world, and be the most well-endowed man in the world, but if her head isn't in the right place sexually, it doesn't matter.

Having said that, there is a book that you might enjoy called "A Celebration of Sex". It is written from a Christian Perspective, but I don't think the spirituality aspect would offend you, my Jewish brother. :-)

It actually teaches a lot about sex, and I've bought it for a lot of myf friends. Many have foud it helpful.


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She said nothing I do works for her. She said sometimes she had felt something in the past. But pretty much only when she was drunk or stoned. She said "there is something physically wrong with me and I need to see the doctor".

I replied "if you feel something when you are drunk, sound to me like the wiring is working to carry signals to your brain. Seems to me more likely that it is psychological. That your brain refuses to listen to the signals because it thinks sex is bad and wrong and not to be enjoyed. Except when you are drunk, and your brain can't clamp down tightly enough, or focus enough, so the signals leak through and you feel them."

She said "but how can it be psychological when I sometimes had sex with guys I didn't like".

I said "that was you trying to take control of your sexuality. To prove you could choose to do it when you chose. That you had a choice."

Amazing that she is finally sharing this with me. Not sure she is ready to do anything about it. But I feel she is finally sharing her true sexuality with me. Hurts to hear that she never feels anything with me. But better to hear the hurtful stuff than to be shut out.


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Hold, I see this as a great step forward. Yes, the info isn't great and hurts you. But recognizing the problem is about 90% of the work of fixing it, right?

That said, I don't know the answer to her problem, but encourage you to continue listening and being supportive. That will keep the lines of communication open. If she feels you are on her team, then she sees you as part of the solution, NOT part of the problem.

In the past, when I've tried to share with my husband WHY I'm not hot for him 24/7 like it was when we were dating and in the early days of marriage, he has shut me down with things like "that's ridiculous, married people should always be hot for each other" or "that's just an excuse" or "now you're trying to make me feel guilty for not having a job and you being exhausted" or...fill in the blank.

So guess who has stopped talking and started just stewing in resentment over it? And guess which aspect of our life it has continued to affect?

Keep on keeping on Hold. She is LUCKY she's got you as a supportive and loving husband. Even if you don't see yourself that way.

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Wouldn't it be interesting if, in the end, marriage ends up bringing healing to both of you...

(I personally believe this is a big part of the point of marriage).

Does it hurt less to hear that her problems with sex have so little (if anything) to do with you? And don't you think it is really remarkable that she is talking to you about it?


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Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Hold, I see this as a great step forward. Yes, the info isn't great and hurts you. But recognizing the problem is about 90% of the work of fixing it, right?


ME TOO! I am so encouraged by their recent progress in communication. Wow.

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Thanks ladies. Yes, I realize it is great she feels safe enough to open up to me. I always knew a big part of our problem was not me. Part is me. But a big part would be anyone.

I am trying very hard not to get upset that she lied to the marriage counsellors and sex therapists in the past. That is done and gone, and we can't get those years back. It is good that she is admitting the truth now.

Not sure where that leaves us as far as what we do in future sessions until she discovers how to feel sensation. I do not want to develop bad habits of completely ignoring her. But at least now I can ask her and hope for a somewhat honest answer.


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I am glad you are finally getting things out in the open. This should have been talked about 15 years ago. I am glad you finally found a creative way to speak to her about it. And that she is willing to start being honest.

I had to do the same with my husband, find creative ways to speak about sex.

Dont quit being open with her. You can bring out her sexual responses. It took a sensitive boyfriend to bring out my responses and show me how to orgasm.

If you could do that, you might be a hero in her eyes.

It would take good technique, experimentation, and being quiet (not wordy) during lovemaking. It is difficult sometimes for women to get to the big O if a man keeps asking them how it is or talks to them. IT really is distracting. Just BE QUIET AND USE GOOD TECHNIQUES and try and guess if she is enjoying it by her responses.

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Actually, what I need to get her is to have a drink first. Which is difficult for two reasons. One, we almost uniformly have sex early in the morning (before kids get up or right after they get on school bus). I would be willing to change the timing. She not so much. Second, in her current weight loss mode she is not going to want to "waste" calories on this. I can ask.

No technique is going to work while her brain is "turning off the switch". She says she feels nothing. Not nothing good. No sensation at all.

To the extent that the doctor gives her a pill. That may help. Even if the pill does nothing. The placebo effect might get her brain to stop blocking / ignoring the sensations.

And yes, I have learned to be quiet during sex. I don't ask her how it is. Before, during or after. If I talk, I just focus on me. I like being here. This feels wonderful. I love being with you. Nothing about her. Nothing that would require her to form a response. Even that is quite limited because I fear saying something that might cause her to want to stop immediately (as you and other long timers know has happened). I would prefer to be more vocal and interactive. I have curbed my inclinations in respect of her reactions. I have a small penis, not a small brain.


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This reminds me some of when I FINALLY went to the doctor and was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. All those years that I just couldn't (insert wouldn't) do it. It was just too much to think about. The fact that she seems to be lowering her defenses about this is HUGE. I would be willing to bet that part of the problem with ignored response is ignoring it instead of dealing with it. I hope she is able to continue sharing this with you.

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Baba:

I have given her articles about this before (teaching a guy not to be bad in bed). For some reason the timing now was right for her to respond to it.

I gave her the article Friday morning on my way out the door. "If any of this is relevant, let me know". Sunday we started having sex. I reached down to use my hand. She pushed my hand away and said something like "don't bother, I don't feel anything when you touch me". Part of the article was about not keeping silent and allowing the man to do things that don't work for the woman. I am guessing that this part of the article resonated with her when I reached over.

I am so glad she did.

P.S. I got the article from a listserv aimed at women. They e-mail a newsletter every day. I joined the listserv at the suggestion of someone here on MB. So whoever you are, thank you. It has taken a while but the listserv finally paid big dividends.


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Well, if you depended on the alcohol in the morning...

you could say that you always thought she was lush...

:::ducking:::

Another idea...might be a repeat from years/months past...

You do non-verbal exercises.

You do touch at night (which you hold yourself to NOT leading to sex...that's for in the morning, 'k?)...

You do 10-minutes of head and neck massage...and she focuses on her breathing. You sit up at the headboard and she lays down on her back with her head in your lap...and you massage her face, head and neck...

You do 20 minutes...10 minutes lightest touch...the kind that gives you shivers...and 10 minutes normal massage.

The lighter the touch, the more she can accept sensation...

And the next night, you do the same, only with back, tummy and collarbone...

She closes her eyes and focuses on her breathing, be okay, safe, in the moment...and says whatever comes to mind...and if there are any questions...you don't answer, 'k?

Next night, feet, calves and thighs...

Rinse and repeat.

Usually this exercise is 10 and switch...you can do 20 and switch with her doing 10...how 'bout it?

She might want to take a pill...a couple of Ibruprofen's...I've heard on some they work nearly as sleep aids...relaxes them.

No calories.

Might also do soft candlelight and some ocean music sounds on the player...

In your own head, as you do this, you recall single snapshots of joyous moments with this woman, your wife, over the last 20 years...you hear her sing and laugh...see her excitement and hear her love for you...so that your light and heavier touch actually IS from love, gratitude and respect.

Don't you be thinkin' about the morning while you're doing this the night before.

smile

You work toward the area she says she can't feel...the don't bother...see if by the end of the week, there's a change. Feather touch...safety...acceptance...relaxing...might just be a substitute for wine.

Retraining our brain receptors through touch...what a way to go, eh?

LA

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LA:

Great ideas. I will suggest that. However, it sounds eerily similar to all the exercises the sex therapists assigned that Mrs. Hold refused to do. Things are different now. Perhaps she will consent to engaging in behaviors she previously rejected. I will ask and allow for the possibility of change.

Also, it is not like we currently have no non-sexual touch. We do in fact have substantial physical touch at night which is entirely non-sexual. I rub the knots in her shoulder. I lay my head on her thigh and she squeezes my ear. So we are doing some of this. More is always welcome. I have no trouble separating Affection from sexual touching. Remember, I am the touchy one in our couple. She is the one who more often rejects non-sexual touching. In our house, we refer to D13 and me as the puppies and Mrs. Hold and S15 as the cats because D13 and I like hugs and Mrs. Hold and S15 generally don't.

Just pointing out that this is not something we have never considered or attempted. As with most suggestions, BTDT. But we are new every day, right?


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Yep, we are new every day.

smile

And this is more therapeutic than affection.

Has scientific basis to it...because of MrsHold's past experience, learning your body as a whole, as your own (instead of a constant boundary working against itself), and what sensation without agenda feels like, goes a long way to retraining the brain.

Tougher than it sounds for someone to accept non-sexual massage...and yes, it's really different from hugs and ear tugs.

smile

Slow feather touch is great for the capillaries, which helps circulation. Mentally it allows folks who are very sensitive to encroachment discern affection as separate.

And you can stay on one stage...just the head and shoulders...until she gives you the okay on the rest. Don't forget to switch, though...you puppy.

LA

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What you describes sounds intentional. That is, she is consciously trying to retrain her mind and body. I fear she is not yet prepared to participate in touching "with an agenda". Even if that agenda is helpful / positive / voluntary.

I don't think she is yet ready to discuss, much less consent to, "let's do some non-sexual touching and see how you feel". I think she wants to take a pill and see if she feels different. Sound like anyone you know?

Despite the way I have described it here, we are still much more in the drive by honesty phase as opposed to the interactive conversation stage. I don't get the feeling we are working together. I will suggest we do so. As you can imagine, I don't expect an affirmative response.


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Quote:
I don't expect


I'm repeating this because I'm trying to bash my own head in with a 2x4 trying to learn this lesson:

Expectations are just pre-meditated resentments.

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