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Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
So much for a walk or sleep, I had to catch up with BT's situation.

What a rollicking ride that is, huh? grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Just so others can see what Dr Harley had to say about this separation:

Quote
LionOrGazelle:
Your husband is unique in this world: He's the father of your children. There are other reasons to save a marriage, but that reason alone makes him more valuable to you than any other man on earth. He is willing to do whatever it takes to overcome and be held accountable for the very bad habit and Love Buster of dishonesty. That makes your problem solvable. We are willing to help him overcome that habit. But if you separate, the chances of your marital survival diminishes considerably, even if he is eventually able to overcome dishonesty. Infidelity for one or both of you would be very likely.

We regard infidelity as the worst offense in marriage. More damaging than physical abuse. And when a couple goes through a period of time when their relationship is broken, and they are not meeting each other's emotional needs, infidelity is very common. Granted, we can even patch these marriages together when the incentive to reconcile (children) is present. But it would be much easier and much less painful if you and your husband never had to go through it.

Right now, your primary issue is your husband's dishonesty. Don't add more problems to the list. Stay together while you address this problem and overcome it.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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ML,

BT and I have many similarities, we've learned, hopefully not in his most recent events.

I know it is our home not hers, I am just not one for conflict right now, especially with our kids right there. I just re-read that sentence and recognize how weak that sounds, but I'd prefer that the decision be mutual. We'll see...

HBS


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Unfortunately...

IF she's wayward...

There is no "mutual"

There is no "rational"

Just addiction

followed by manipulation (of anyone that threatens such addition in any way).

Mr. W

p.s. - that letter up there MrRollieEyes struck me as wayward.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Kids are finally down. Sorry this will be long as I try to "catch up"

I spoke with a polygraph examiner a week ago. I called him last week after HBS told Mediator that even if he told me stuff I wouldn't believe him. He was right. So I called one to ask what the cost would be, and how soon we could set one up if we could ever get to exactly this conversation today about taking one. I did not want to request one of HBS as I was fearful he would lash out and I had a deep fear of what I would feel if I asked him to and he refused. I was not ready for that rejection. SO I did not offer it up at that time.

But today after this explosion, HBS stated it first that he would take one. I didn't have to ask for it and it meant MORE to me that HE offered it. I called the examiner this evening after HBS's call. The examiner called back and can get us in Tuesday evening and Wednesday morning to get both done. I have no problem with taking one. None at all. Would do it tonight if I could.

I was told tonight that our mutual friend suspected HBS had a GPS and a VAR in my truck. Friend said based on his experience with HBS and their conversations of late, HBS seemed to know the script of what to say when they talked, which was after I spoke with friend. It was his hunch. He was right. I didn't know. I was physically at friend's home when we discussed it (and HBS's GPS could prove that). HBS fears I already knew so had counter measures to counter act the surveillance measures he had taken. Totally exhausting. I didn't know. Could care less. And told HBS if he wonders if I knew, he can call friend and discuss it with him (same friends we are seeing tomorrow).

When I got home, I asked HBS to point them out and I removed them. I asked for the key. He gave it to me. I then asked if he had any other keys and he admitted he had one and gave that to me. I want to acknowldege that giving me the extra 2nd extra key was HONEST! I really appreciated that step he took. And I want to post it here so everyone knows he did overcome his fears and was honest. HBS...thank you.

According to friend, HBS had stated he was spying and found nothing. I can tell you...because there was nothing to find. Guys, I get that most women (women more than men) leave only when they have someone else to go to. That is what I know about most women I know. But 100% do not, and even Dr. Harley states it. Was I tempted? Sure. Have opportunities been made available to me? Sure. Have I wanted to react out of anger or hurt? Sure. But I have not been and am not wayward. And I have told others about the situations as above as my way to help try and keep me on the right path and to keep me accountable during the challenging times in my marriage when I was most vulnerable to being wayward. I am only human and have always believed each and every one of us is capable of infidelity. It is the barriers we actively put in place that protect us. One of my errors was believing that I could put those barriers in place for HBS when he would share with me his belief that he really didn't need barriers like others because he just wouldn't be unfaithful. My experiences in my marriage did not support his statements so I did all I could then (wrong) to try and make it safe for me by placing barriers up where I saw danger. Maybe he didn't go wayward. So much has happened I can only guess. But would welcome the polygraph to be able to put my own demons to rest on it.

Just for a minute, assume I am not wayward instead of assuming I am wayward. Assume I really am that exception that proves the rule. I hope that if you can read my posts again from that perspective instead of from the assumption that I am a wayward wife, that it changes at least some of your perspective.

HBS will attest to this. I entered this marriage with two lines drawn: Don't ever hit me and don't ever cheat on me. I have said half jokingly, "if you are going to cheat, have the "pair" to call me first before you jump in the sack so at least I won't feel betrayed (or so I thought then I would not feel betrayed). When the opportunites have been made available, I always believed I would have to make that call first. I never wanted to make that call. So I was not willing to become a wayward.

I will happily take any polygraph. I believe it will end this crazy cycle of VARs in my car (and now I guess likely in my home being he is here with the kids but we have internet cameras anyways so doesn't matter) and GPS tracking devices and crazy-making.

So with GPS, my secrets are out: HBS now knows I was attending Alanon meetings, Gamanon meetings, COSA meetings, shopping at dress barn, meeting with family friend and wife, going to the office, going home, etc. He has heard every bit of my side of every conversation (sane and ranting) I have had in my car when I thought I was alone. And I am not mad at all. Actually, I am relieved because I think this has all be a huge distraction for him. I get why you all thought he should do it. But he did it. Now is the time to move to the other side of it. If the polygraph gives him that, then it is $400 well spent. I know it will give me what I need so that $400 is definately well spent.

Why do I stay at the office a lot? 1) we owe WAY more than we can ever pay back. We live in a house we should NEVER have bought. HBS has a "paycheck" job (a good one but predictable). I own a business and I am really the only person that can go work more and make more to earn more to fix our financial problems. I have done so at the expense of my kids and my marriage. I have typically gotten up very early before kids get up to get t work so I can try to get home. In the months before the separation, I was not getting home until maybe an hour before they went to bed if I was lucky and up with the baby until she fell asleep closer to 11pm. HBS would get home by 6pm to relieve the nanny and I would get home on average at 8pm (7pm to 9pm range) and some nights I did have to choose to stay late and work. But I will defend my parenting time with them because as soon as I did get home I was responsible for all 3 kids, and I put them to bed and I was with the baby until late and I was home almost every weekend. HBS had the 6pm until 8pm slot, and I had the rest. And he was resentful that I was not home to help him at 6pm. When I got home, I was resentful that he would typically then go play online poker when I was with the kids. It is a sick cycle. Fueled by my anger and resentment and his resentment and addictive choices for stress release. I am ready to let our home go financially so that the pressure for me to make more can stop.

2) being home with HBS was miserable, so being at work felt productive. Just as miserable as I am assuming he would agree and say it was being home with me. We are both high energy but under stress, I get anxious and short, and HBS's ADD flares and he gets frenetic. Our mutual friends told me last week that they used to hate coming over to our house because it was so stressful and they did not have a good time. I never knew that but I guess he and I were not the only ones feeling the stress when we were together. And THAT is why together in the same room we do NOT work well right now, especially with the kids. Kids know when things are bad even when you choose not to use words. When I told my 5 year old we were separated, during our conversation I asked him what he thought of it all, and he stated very matter-of-factly that mommy and daddy living in different houses was ok. Because then daddy wouldn't be mean to mommy and mommy wouldn't be mean to daddy. And he was right.

My intent is not trying to embarrass HBS although there was no way to share my story without it being embarrassing because IT IS! My shame has kept me silent for so long. I wanted to fix this without anyone knowing. That was part of my reason for sharing on the forum. You don't know us. You don't see our kids at school. I had hoped it would create the safe place just once where he could be honest.

Why did it take me so long to get to "today"? Because I have been so attached to the anger and resentment over it not being a problem but a choice he made. I desperately wanted him to then instead "choose me" and "our marriage" and our vows instead of these crutches in his life. Life can be stressful and some days it sucks. HBS is wired that it is more difficult for him to handle those stresses. He started medication for anxiety, ADD and depression about a month ago. Only he can tell you how or if it is impacting him positively. But there are healthier ways to deal with stress than some of the choices HBS has made. There are healthier ways for me to deal with my anger and resentment than I have made.

And addictions are cunning and baffling. And I wanted him to "fix it" so I could pretend it never happened ("it" being whatever choices he makes when he leans on self-medicating behaviors). My "today" moment came when I detached from my anger and resentment about being a victim of his choices, and instead I can surrender to the power of the compulsions. And I could finally let it go that I can't stop him from making those choices and no matter what I do, it will not stop the urges and I can't make him stop any of those actions. But he can and I can support him in addressing those issues whatever they truly end up being and regardless of what ultimately happens to our marriage. And I can commit to a marriage with HBS that is healthy, open and honest, and with recovery being the forefront of a new relationship.

And MelodyLane, I don't fault you for questioning me as a wayward. I don't fault anyone. I will take a polygraph. And HBS can read me just as well as I can read him. I know you will not take my word on it, but when HBS has what he needs, you can take his.

I will happily talk to Steve or Sandy or whomever right now. I have already held the polygraph slots for Tuesday and Wednesday. We are meeting with family friend and wife mentioned above tomorrow (HBS requested). And I would welcome HBS back into the home to work on our marriage after we have completed these inital steps above to establish honesty and communication plans so that the time together does not trigger either of us to act as we have in the past. Our kids know and I want them to see something different, not just hear talk about it.

I want to do this. I want to close those doors on those past issues that have never been resolved. I want to start my healing no matter what happens with us. Those wounds run deep for me and I have just started on my journey out of betrayal and into recovery and into forgiveness.

This is going to be a LONG road.

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MelodyLane,

You are right. Those are the posts from Dr. Harley. I do not know how to insert a text box from a thread as you do but here is the last post from Dr. Harley on the subject:

Re: Lessons without your spouse [Re: LionOrGazelle]
Dr. Harley

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Registered: 11/16/00
Posts: 2375 LyonOrGazelle:

I'm sorry to hear that your effort to allow him to stay overnight with you in another room triggered such an aversive reaction in you. Your husband must understand and respect your wishes in this case, even though it may introduce new problems. We will try to help him while separated from you.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


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Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I know it is our home not hers, I am just not one for conflict right now, especially with our kids right there. I just re-read that sentence and recognize how weak that sounds, but I'd prefer that the decision be mutual. We'll see...

HBS

HBS, living in your own home should not be a mutual decision; it is your right. I understand that you want to avoid conflict, but I don't think that is going to get you very far when it is your marriage at stake. Separating like this is harmful to your marriage, not helpful, so that is not avoiding conflict, it is inviting it.

As Dr Harley stated, separating is only adding a new layer of problems that wasnt there before.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Right now, your primary issue is your husband's dishonesty. Don't add more problems to the list. Stay together while you address this problem and overcome it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
And MelodyLane, I don't fault you for questioning me as a wayward. I don't fault anyone. I will take a polygraph. And HBS can read me just as well as I can read him. I know you will not take my word on it, but when HBS has what he needs, you can take his.

I will happily talk to Steve or Sandy or whomever right now. I have already held the polygraph slots for Tuesday and Wednesday. We are meeting with family friend and wife mentioned above tomorrow (HBS requested). And I would welcome HBS back into the home to work on our marriage after we have completed these inital steps above to establish honesty and communication plans so that the time together does not trigger either of us to act as we have in the past. Our kids know and I want them to see something different, not just hear talk about it.

I think this is a good START and I do agree that you both need to take polygraphs in order to start fresh. But living separated is a BAD IDEA, just as Dr Harley advised. You can't very well work on a marriage if you are not together. Since he has been gone, new problems have been added to the mix just as Dr Harley said they would.

The reason red flags are going off, LOG, is because your posts are very convoluted and seem to lack any rhyme or reason. Your words do not match your actions. I am not saying this to be mean, but the lack of clarity sets off warning bells. And the rationale behind staying out all night is just not believable.

It is absolutely unreasonable to kick your H out of his own home, LOG, so I would strongly suggest you get him back now. If you are sincere about fixing this marriage, you will faciliate that move and follow Dr Harley's advice.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi tst-
Just wanted to make sure you caught the reply on the polys. Sorry but was part of a LONG post and I did not want to have you lose sight of the answer to the question you ask.
But YES! YES! YES! I will take a poly. And yes he offered and that means a TON! And I took him up on it instantaneously! Set for Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday morning if time is still needed to finish both. $800 bucks for the two and I feel hopeful that this will put to bed the demons for me. And I guess for him now too. Hopefully it gives us both the peace we are searching for.
Thank you for skipping over here and posting in. Please stay on me.


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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
MelodyLane,

You are right. Those are the posts from Dr. Harley. I do not know how to insert a text box from a thread as you do but here is the last post from Dr. Harley on the subject:

Re: Lessons without your spouse [Re: LionOrGazelle]
Dr. Harley

Member

Registered: 11/16/00
Posts: 2375 LyonOrGazelle:

I'm sorry to hear that your effort to allow him to stay overnight with you in another room triggered such an aversive reaction in you. Your husband must understand and respect your wishes in this case, even though it may introduce new problems. We will try to help him while separated from you.

Best wishes,
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

LOG, I don't find your excuse for staying out all night to be credible in the least, and neither do other board members. We see that kind of excuse from waywards on this board every day. Dr Harley might not confront you with that, BUT I WILL.

Even so, you will have an opportunity to clear that up with a polygraph.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Hi tst-
Just wanted to make sure you caught the reply on the polys. Sorry but was part of a LONG post and I did not want to have you lose sight of the answer to the question you ask.

LOG, just a respectful request, but it would be helpful if your posts were about 1/3rd that size so folks can follow. Too much information tends to muddy the waters and just makes it harder to GET.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I believe my W has a right to respond to all this new stuff, but I, again, take serious issue with some of her alleged "facts".

Facts matter, context matters.

I've never gambled with our money, only free tournaments. I didn't swim naked with our friends, I kept my suit on. The single, unopened bar condom in my car was 10 years ago, not recently as she has implied. My W knows all this, and to insinuate otherwise is misleading at best. When I did it early on in a post (wrongly), hell erupted, when she does it, it is ok.

There is more, but I am getting drawn back in when I shouldn't let myself.

In summary, again, my W's focus is on me and my actions, with not a word about why I might have done them, and in reaction to what....

HBS


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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Just for a minute, assume I am not wayward instead of assuming I am wayward. Assume I really am that exception that proves the rule. I hope that if you can read my posts again from that perspective instead of from the assumption that I am a wayward wife, that it changes at least some of your perspective.

LOG, I assumed you WERE NOT a wayward until I read more of your posts. It was reading more of your posts that reflected that mind set and set off my red flags. The sudden separation, words not matching actions, staying out all night, intense focus on demonizing your husband and blaming him for all the problems in your marriage. That is all wayward behavior. Heck, I posted to you over on the MB101 forum initially. So, there was no assumption on my part. The same for others here who saw the same thing. It is your posts that is making folks suspicious.

The reason folks are suspicious is because we are the master mechanics who fix cars and listen to engines knocking all day. Some of us have been doing this for years. So, when the master mechanic hears an engine knock is he being "assumptive" when he quickly identifies it as a busted engine block?

Or is he using his finely honed skills to help him identify a problem? But it is not just the "knock" that helps the mechanic. He must LIFT THE HOOD and take a close, close look. The knock just leads him to open the hood, not to draw a conclusion without looking.

And that is all we are suggesting to your H. He needs to open the hood to find the source of seemingly wayward thinking.

Not saying we are always right about sniffing out affairs, but I cant think of a time we were wrong. There are currently 2-3 affairs on the front page of the SAA forum at this very moment that were IDed by board members. [igrip and BTintrouble]


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Hi Melody,
I know I won't be able to convince you of my reasons and I don't don't expect you to believe me. HBS knows, even if now he has developed a fear of me being wayward, why I work as I do. I would agree immediately to being at work less if we can find a solution we agree upon with regards to this house. We can let it go into foreclosure, we can try a short sale, we can liquidate 401Ks and IRAs and pay down the extra lines of credit so maybe we could afford the primary mortgage payment, he could get a part-time job, we could rent out the extra room downstairs instead of having a live-in nanny. But the financial stress has been critical and difficult for both of us.

In many marriages, men and women have "typical" ENs. We...are not typical. But I am sure that does not surprise you.

I have a need for 1) honesty & openness, 2) conversation, 3) family commitment and 4) recreational companionship. Affection is #9 on my list. My primary love languages are Acts of Service and Quality Time (out of counseling the last time around).

According to the course we completed, HBS stated his ENs were 1) Affection, 2) was sexual fulfillment but he later changed it to open and honesty, 3) was O&H but then changed to sexual fullfilment, and 4) conversation. Domestic support is #9 on his list. HBS's primary love langages were Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch.

We did agree that admiration was a #10 for both of us. I guess at least that is common ground. smirk

He is hard wired a little different than most guys. I am hard wired a little different than most women. That makes it even harder for the "100% everyone does it this or that way" sometimes harder for us as we work through somewhat of a role reversal. I was taught by my father to work hard, be proud of your work, make a contribution, take care of your family and be responsible financially. We have borrowed from BOTH his parents and mine now to help with our debts. I would like to think I would stand behind my commitment to my mortgage company but these days I don't really feel the love to keep paying them. But taking money from either set of parenst was HARD, and HBS knows it was even so much harder for me to ask it from my father. And I have an obligation to participate in the repayment to both of our parents, his and mine. The banks right now...ah, not so much these days.

If that doesn't fly with you, I guess I will not try to explain it. I will let HBS address it whenever he feels he can and wants to.

Again, I have no problem with you asking if you want to keep at me. Remember, one of my ENs is conversation. smile

Also, I gave up trying to type in hotmail so I could spell check before posting. Sorry to all for my poor typing/spelling skills. Would really like to know if there is a spell check on this sight (I feel embarrassed when I spell poorly as I feel it makes me appear uneducated so that is why I desire a spell check option - to help me avoid my discomfort with feeling embarrassed by my spelling).

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ok - will do.

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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
He is hard wired a little different than most guys. I am hard wired a little different than most women. That makes it even harder for the "100% everyone does it this or that way" sometimes harder for us as we work through somewhat of a role reversal.

I don't think you understand Marriage Builders if you think "everyone does it this way." It is not a cookie cutter program in that it doesn't recognize very individualized emotional needs and reactions to lovebusters. It has nothing to do male versus female roles, but with individual emotional needs. It is very focused on the INDIVIDUAL'S needs. What makes it work for EVERYONE is the policy of joint agreement.

BUT, one has to actually work it in order for it work. One has to live together in order for it work. That is what your H is prepared to do.

What say you?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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And I agree that MB is the best at finding affairs.

(will keep this short)

When I started to post, I posted some of my questions and comments as I did but were because those were the things I was hearing from HBS. I don't always make the right choices and I thought if I asked "what if I said this" instead of "he said it to me like this" that it would be easier for me to try to dicuss those exact conversation with HBS.

On some level I wanted to be able to have a safe place to work through what I was hearing from him. It is sick in my head but I believed that if people responded that it was not ok, then we could talk about it and it would still be safe for him because I took the heat.

(And the tears start). And I can tell you now that feeling, that " willingness to take the heat" triggers in me my shame and embarrassment over everything that happened in our first separation. We told very few people that time that we were even separated (just like this time). And for those we told we were separated and they asked why...what happened, he told me we were not going to tell them anything about the online porn or "other sexual compulsions" (OSP for short) but that he would tell them it was not that he gambled away money and that he had not had an affair. I agreed to this because I was in so much pain myself and did not know where all of this would end up. So they did not get to know why I asked for a separation then, but they got to know why I didn't.

So I get why you need to lift the hood. All I can tell you is in my own sickness, I made myself believe it was the safer way to sare my struggles. That I was the stronger one and could "take the heat".

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My blood pressure is going up....


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ML, I'm shutting the lid on my laptop and going to try to sleep. I can see now why Dr. Harley places little value on rehashing the known (versus the unknown) history or problems between a couple in moving forward with MB.

Nothing has changed, it's all about me.

I'll check in in the morning...

HBS


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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 96
One last thing, she's right, our friend told her about VAR today, and she demanded to know where it was and took it, making clear she had no intention of letting me touch it or listen to today's activities in her car....

HBS

Last edited by HopefulButScared; 05/30/10 01:51 AM.

Me 41
W 38

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: DS5, DS2 and DD1
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