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LOG, can you see how damaging this thread is to your marriage? The lovebusters to your H on this thread alone have done nothing to help your marriage. The letter you propose sending out about his "bad behavior" is devastating and something I would classify as cruel. This just continues to get worse and worse because of your marriage wrecking behavior.

Exposure was never intended as a way to
slime and malign your spouse. That letter is absolutely inappropriate and will only harm your marriage. There is no reason to send out such a letter, especially when you have a spouse who is ready, able and willing to work on your marriage.

I would strongly suggest you erase that letter and never speak of it again. That letter is what is shameful, not your H's past sins.

Instead of working so hard to demonize your husband, how about putting all that energy into working this program, LOG? This program really does work.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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HBS, please feel free to correct or add anywhere on this thread. I want this to be a new thread. One that can maybe be a place for our recoveries to each take new footing.

It is not my intention to be unclear. It does not benefit anyone to misstate the facts.

Gambling- I have no idea about the online gambling and "real money" but the poly will flush that out. You have gambled with our money in home tournaments and in Vegas. You told me in 2001 that you had lied to me about how much money you won or lost as games with the guys. I can say today we have money in our IRAs and 401Ks (hence the desire to liquidate and pa off debts) so I am lucky enough to say we have not gone broke because of his gambling. I don't think I ever stated we were but if the postings made it sound that way, I apologize. My issue is in that it was daily, for hours, into the middle of the night, was impacting other areas of his life and who he was when he was gambling was alien to me. He uses it as a crutch (his words in his email to me) to deal with stress.

Naked swim - ah, 4th of July. I honestly cannot say what really happened and did not. They were naked, he was in the water, they were group photos, he told me he joined in because he was mad I was going to be late for the afternoon and because I had told him (not respectfully I am sure) that I did not want him participating in any naked swim with this group if they decided to do it again that year.

He participated (maybe they were all naked and he had his suit on - I guess them naked and him in a suit all toughing should feel better than all naked. If he wanted to get in the watr with naked guys...maybe I wouldn;t have cared. But three naked women. That was hard for me to stomach, and still is but poly will flush that out too), told me he had too much to drink and that impacted his decision to participate, and then lie about it.

So he very well might be right that he kept his suit on. I can't say. I wasn't there. And I was too embarrassed to ask the friends and even if I had asked, I just would have used that info to try and control him so he was not in a similar environment next time so next time, it wouldn't happen. HBS has told me that he joined in knowing I would disapprove because he was angry at me and had too much to drink. I have always felt guilty that if I had just not been late that day, he would not have acted out. I have felt it was "my fault" he made the choice he did. But it isn't my fault. I demanded he not participate. That behavior is my fault. But he made the choices to drink too much and get in the water. That was his fault.

Unopened condom in the car - yes, it was back in 2001/2002. It was 10 years ago. It was not recently and if I implied otherwise, that was not my intention. Just because it happened 10 years ago doesn't make it any less important. It was a condom someone buys from a vending machine at a bar. "We" never bought those types of condoms and at that time in our relationship, I would not have been able to use one anyways.

When it happened then, it was in his car, unopened. He told me then that day, repeatedly over the years until I stopped asking, as well as family friend we are meeting with tomorrow that he does not know where we was when he bought it, does not know who he was with when he bought it, but that he remembers for certain that he was thinking of using it with me when he did. He had told me (but I don't recall what he told family friend) that again he had more t drink than he should of and that was why he could not remember. He told me he had too much to drink to remember, but he remembers thinking of me when he bought it. Maybe he was not drinking when he bought it, maybe he lied and said he was to avoid some other consequence. I don't know and I stopped running through th scenarios in my own head a long time ago. But that wound- right there and very deep.

I have not been able to move beyond this and the other incidents that have occurred and as a result, I have been stuck in controlling and demanding HBS to do everything I could that I knew of to make my marriage safe.

I did it all wrong. I can see that now. I had never chosen to stay in a relationship before where I believed someone had been unfaithful. I had always believed that unfaithfulness was a deal breaker. I did not believe a recovery was possible. I was broken in a way and to a degree I had never been before. I can see that I still am. And because I stayed with HBS instead of run (and BOY I wanted to run so bad in 2001), I failed at having any way of handling the situations in our marriage that stemmed from 2001 and that occured afterwards.

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Sorry Melody, another long one. I will try harder.

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I have it (his VAR) and have not erased any of the contents. Happy to share it at another time.

Last edited by LionOrGazelle; 05/30/10 02:21 AM. Reason: added (his VAR)
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I have not sent the letters to anyone yet.

It has been posted here and given to family friend (who already knows all the details) that were are meeting with tomorrow.

I will not send the letters as you have requested.

I will await the polygraphs Tuesday and Wednesday.

I will gladly take calls from Sandy and the Harleys.

I will commit to working on my marriage to HBS in recovery.

I am continuing in my journey and will be attending a COSA meeting on Sunday.


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HBS-
If the letter is cruel, I won't send it. If you want me to change the name of my thread, I will do that.

This was intended to be a place for me to start dealing with all the crap I bring to the table from these issues and it speaks to my recovery.

I came to know that I am still sitting there emotionally in 2001, having just discovered the porn. There has been no healing. It hurt me and changed me in ways I am still trying to figure out.

So maybe it is hard for you and the others to connect because the facts occurred "so long ago". For me, it feels like it was today. So I am starting my work to recover from the betrayal from then. But in trying to do so, I know this is painful stuff. So if nothing else, if you want, I can change the name of my thread.

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I am confused.
On your thread on the MB101 board you posted:
Originally Posted by LoG
2. On a 4th of July, one of his group of friends was getting together on a boat on a lake. Us and the 3 other couples. One couple drinks a lot, and can say and do things that are inappropriate and puts a LOT of pressure on others to join in on bad behavior. I had to stay late at work. He wanted to go ahead without me and I could join him later. I expressed my concern that last year they all (or all but 1 or 2) went skinny dipping together (we were not there but heard all about it) in the broad daylight public lake. I told him I was nervous it would happen again and I did not want him participating. If I was there with him, we wouldn't join in but I was afraid with the drinking and the pressure, he would not say no. He told me he did not, but he did and lied because he knew it was a poor choice. He blamed some on drinking, the rest on �they pressured me� and I was mad at you for working late. Photos circulated. I was devastated and embarrassed.
Originally Posted by LoG
(for example, one time he got too drunk and that was his excuse for swimming naked during the day in a public lake with his group of male and female friends with pictures taken when I was not there and had already stated that they did this last year and I did not want him participating,

Which rather gave me the impression HE was naked. However you imply now that he was not. Could you please clarify.

Also on your other thread, you stated several times that the MAJOR issue for you was his dishonesty, past and present. There was some issue with gambling but this thread is the first time I have seen you say that porn was a current issue.

When I asked you "What would it take for your H to do that would allow you to be O&H with him again?"
Your reply: Full historical honesty and his plan for current accountability. No more secrecy.
Does this still stand?

Also I cannot stress enough that I think it is a BAD idea for you and your H to both post on the same thread. It just causes the bickering we are seeing here. If you must, read each others threads and comment on your own accordingly, but stop squabbling. We are quite capable of reading both and making our own judgements.


Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday laugh
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lil- (I am working on making smaller posts - here goes it)

Naked Boat Swimming Issue:

They are the same instance. These are the facts as I know them: As to whether or not he was naked, I honestly don't know because I was not there. I did not know about the incident right away. Don't think I would have asked the right questions if I had.

The others were naked. What I recall of his explanation of that day was that "he joined in". The photos only showed the girls swimming with their buns out of the water, and the group photos with everyone together. He states in his post he was wearing swimming trunks. But as you have eluded to in my original posts, the dishonesty when he is "caught" in a lie makes it so hard for me to find closure.

Because of the history of lies as you noted in my original posts, I do not know what I can or cannot believe. I can only wait for the polygraph to know for sure.

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Lil- (next one)

Lies/Dishonesty-
The lies/dishonesty is my major issue in my marriage today. I believe it is a critical component to the action/shame/dishonesty/shame cycle. I believed that was the key to start tackling all of these demons betwen us. I think if HBS could get and be honest, we could have tackled this stuff together, privately. I think I would have gotten there before today had things worked out differently, I would have been willing to come around. I guess I can't say for sure, but I think I would have.

I can't say how much of a factor current porn use is for HBS. He has stated his position on it in this thread. His email to me earlier this year as I previously pasted was what I know about it. The polygraph will help with this. But it was a HUGE issue in 2001. And we did not address it appropriately then in counseling.

It has felt like he had an affair in 2001 (that the discovery felt like it) but that because of the nature of it, it got swept under the rug because it was embarrassing. I didn't discuss it with my circle because I was embarrassed and I believed somehow that I made him do these things. And that secretly, I could just fix it too then.

But the stresses and triggers in our lives did not change. And his IC that he has had since 2001 through March/April of 2010 was adamant that spouses in healthy marriages do not share everything and that spouses lie to protect one another and it is normal. And this belief was brought back into our MC. And I didn't believe it in my heart but I felt alone with not having anyone to talk to about it, and eventually I thought I was strong enough to accept that as the way it was. If it was "the right way" and I just work really hard at it and then eventually I would find the peace I was looking for.

So the lying he was doing to cover up the porn use and stuff continued and I think my actions and reactions put pressure on the problems and over time, the gambling and use of alcohol as a crutch grew stronger.

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Lil- (last one)

On the question of "Does this still stand?"

Yes, it does. I reiterated that exact statement on Monday at our mediator meeting. When she asked him about it, he referenced MB, the honesty work being "out of order" and that he had been advised by (don't recall specifically who) in MB that they did not recommend he agree. It was at this meeting that for the first time he did not specifically say "Sandy/Steve/Dr. Harley" told him NOT to agree, but instead he said
"Sandy/Steve/Dr. Harley" said that it was a "grey area" and would be his choice on what to do (something like that) but that if he did, (they at MB) could not support the process (or something like that) because it was out of order.

I know it is mincing words. But I heard a difference in how he had been saying it for weeks. I heard words that gave me hope. I did not hear "MB tells me I shouldn't do this" but instead "MB says I can decide" even if they won't support us through it. People come into MB at different places in their lives. I can accept that Sandy/the Harleys will not support us through it because it is not the MB way. But I would like to think that if we can get through it, and I am committed to working the MB program from there on out to save my marriage, that they would be willing to come back and support us from that point on.

The exchange on Monday did not change my expectations of my marriage that day, but it did give me hope. For the first time in a very long time, I had a little hope. And I let myself enjoy it.

I will keep my posts to this thread. Sorry you had to endure our bickering. Thank you for being patient enough to read through it, still post and tell me to knock it off. Will work on that today.

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Not much sleep last night. Cleaned out my truck and some of the kitchen though.

No longer feeling hopeful.

Am going to try to enjoy my day with kids today. May not be on MN much so sorry if I don't reply.

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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
I have not sent the letters to anyone yet.

It has been posted here and given to family friend (who already knows all the details) that were are meeting with tomorrow.

I will not send the letters as you have requested.

I will await the polygraphs Tuesday and Wednesday.

I will gladly take calls from Sandy and the Harleys.

I will commit to working on my marriage to HBS in recovery.

I am continuing in my journey and will be attending a COSA meeting on Sunday.

If you really mean this, then you will STOP doing things that are harmful to your marriage. Because so far, I see absolutely no actions that would back up your claim to want to save your marriage.

If you mean this, you will

1. stop trashing your H on this board and delete the lovebusting posts on this thread. Stop trashing him to friends and family.

2. cancel your meeting with the family today - what is that all about? crazy

3. invite your husband to move back home

4. STOP BRINGING UP BAD BEHAVIOR OF THE PAST

5. Stop following your own counsel and listen to Sandy and Dr Harley.

Those are behaviors that are consistent with an expressed desire to save your marriage.

I would start with deleting that despicable letter you wrote about your H above and apologize to him for threatening to send it out.





"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
This was intended to be a place for me to start dealing with all the crap I bring to the table from these issues and it speaks to my recovery.

You are not dealing with it though, you are making it worse for your marriage. The reason you are "stuck" is because you continually drag it up over and over and over again. THAT is what keeps you stuck. It is a diversion from recovering your marriage. Bringing the past into the present is a waste of time. You are not only keeping yourself stuck, but you are terrorizing your husband and harming your marriage in so many ways.

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.
here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


MelodyLane #2382212 05/30/10 11:04 AM
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Mel-
I am sorry.
What I have posted may be hard to read, but it is the truth and it is real.
I will not delete it to deny the past.
You seem to be right a lot I guess.
I must not really want to recover.
I am bowing out now.
Thanks for everyone trying to help. Sorry I just didn't get it.

LionOrGazelle #2382217 05/30/10 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by LionOrGazelle
Mel-
I am sorry.
What I have posted may be hard to read, but it is the truth and it is real.

But it is really harmful to your marriage. And I think you know this, LOG.

If you decide you really want to work on your marriage, come back and we will help you. That offer remains on the table..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


LionOrGazelle #2382223 05/30/10 11:43 AM
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The following three quotes are from the first post I ever made on April 15, 6 weeks ago...

Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Complicating this big picture for me was my belief that my wife�s responses and reactions to my dishonesty too often resulted in unfairly harsh retribution. Because I didn't feel there was a "safe" environment to be truthful, I found myself being dishonest about things that I didn�t believe were a big deal, or were not things she needed to know about. As some of these lies surfaced, my wife rightfully began to trust me less and less�to the point where her imagination of what I was hiding created things that didn�t happen, or didn�t allow her to accept my explanations. I was the little boy who cried wolf. I can honestly say that this site has helped me understand where she's coming from on those issues, but I've had difficulty overcoming the resentment I harbor over some of her punishing behavior and being accused of things I didn't do. I've spent the last week reminding myself that this is a bed that I made, and I know that I will have to repeatedly keep reminding myself of that fact if I have any hopes of this MB program succeeding, but it's hard.

Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
Now, we are at the edge of jumping headlong into trying to rebuild our relationship using MB principals, but we are both terrified. She is terrified that despite my promise of honesty and to follow the PORH and POJA, that she can’t trust me to just “turn off” a lifetime of selective honesty after a week of reading MB articles. She is so scared of being hurt again as we approach reconciliation with MB that her anxiety is through the roof. It breaks my heart to say I likely would feel the same way if the roles were reversed. For my part, I am mentally committed to trying to alter my past behavior, but terrified that I won’t be able to change what has become a hard-wired reaction of selective honesty, and that if (when?) I screw up, that there will be no forgiveness or understanding on her part, just incredible hurt, anger and unfair retribution.


Originally Posted by HopefulButScared
I love my wife more than I could possibly explain here. She is a brilliant, loyal and loving woman and a great mother, and the thought of losing her makes my heart feel like it is being squeezed in a vice. I know from a review of the materials here that I have to take responsibility for my actions, and that I can only control my side of making things right, not hers. That is what I intend to do through individual counseling, as well as continuing review of this site's content.


You've all just seen a microcasm of our lives over the past 13 years. Our "traditional" marital counselor, Fred_in_VA, and friends/family in whom I've confided recently have asked me why I want this marriage, given the dynamic that has evolved?

I will ask you all, and particularly LoG if/when she reads this, to reread the last block quote from above, because it is true.

It is true.

I've told those questioners exactly this: My problem with dishonesty will be far easier to overcome if the person most punished and tormented by it is compelled, by MB principles, to create a "safe" enviroment for me to be honest.

It hasn't been safe for ten years. It has been the opposite of safe. And combined with other factors not really discussed here on the forum, my fear and loneliness drove me deeper into secrecy, but not about huge things. As the poly will show, there have been no affairs, no addiction to alcohol or porn (unless 3-4 times a year is an addiction), no lost money from gambling, no abuse of prescription medications. Just a desire to avoid any conflict because of the environment that conflict created. I turned inward to those thing instead of outward to what certainly would have been unfaithfulness.

I want all of that to change.

I welcome transparancy in a safe environment, without DJ, AO's and SD's.

My wife's letter isn't the truth, but she will likely pass a poly that, to her, it is. It is the truth that her mind has created because of our terrible dynamic. I am doing my best not to be angry with her, because I don't necessary think it is her fault, in the traditional sense. But it needs to be fixed. I need to be fixed. LoG needs to be fixed. We can and will be fixed by using MB, and I am asking, no begging of you, LoG, that you not bail on me and our family right now.

WE CAN DO THIS. If you bow out without trying, you will never forgive yourself...

I love you.

Keep posting, and I look forward to the day (soon I hope) where our conversations aren't limited to this forum.


Me 41
W 38

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: DS5, DS2 and DD1
MelodyLane #2382225 05/30/10 11:52 AM
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LoG - I've been reading your story for a while now. I hope you're still around. I really do.

From reading I get the impression that you have been holding on to your resentment and anger for your husband for a long time. It has become your familiar companion. You're so used to it that you don't WANT to let it go - not really, not deep down. You may SAY with your words that you do, but I don't know that you do. I understand that, emotions become familiar after a time, to lose them is frightening and uncomfortable, even if they're unhealthy. Perhaps that's why you insisted on separation though the best have advised you it is the OPPOSITE of what you need to get what you want. Separation and it's eventual conclusion of divorce would let you hold on to that anger and resentment indefinitely.

You really are in a lucky situation, one many here envy and would love to have. Your spouse is HERE, he's on board. He's TRYING. He may not be 100% successful but he's working on it. You seem to not even want to give him that chance.

I think you want to recover, but you're scared to. You don't think you have it in you to deal with one more failure. I can understand that. But YOU need to understand that as well. Realize that you are operating from a position of fear which will never get you what you really want. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Everything you do should be evaluated. Are you doing it to strengthen and build up your marriage, or to make yourself feel better/ demonize your husband? I don't think you are in a place where you can objectively ascertain whether your actions are helpful or not. Coming here is a good check on that behavior. If everyone is saying that your letter would be harmful, trust them, because your judgement in this regard is going to be clouded by your anger and resentment.

Now, I'm really bothered by the fact that you removed the VARs from your car. I'm bothered by the fact that you were bothered by them. Especially from being at MB for so long you should know that a spouse has a right to snoop. You should have welcomed the VARs. You should welcome leaving them right where they are as a check on your own behavior. You said yourself that you have been tempted. What better way to keep yourself honest than to encourage your husband to verify your words and actions when not around him?

Finally, do you see how sad it is that your children are ok and happier when their parents AREN'T together? Do you see how that will give them a skewed view of adult romantic relationships? Do you realize how that will affect their future relationships?

YOU are part of what has created that.

You say you want to fix your marriage. You are here b/c you want to use MB to do that. You cannot place all of the blame on your husband. From what I've read here, that is all you do. I understand that he has his problems, and from what I read, he sees that too. Your focus needs to be on YOU - and fixing your problems.

If you value your marriage, you need to walk the walk. It needs to come first, before paying bills, making money, whatever. It needs to COME FIRST. Waking up before dawn and coming home an hour before your kids go to bed will NOT save your marriage. I don't see you making any time for your husband and you're barely squeezing in time for your kids. MB holds that a good marriage requires 15 hours MINIMUM of UA time - you'd need closer to 20-25. What are you doing to make that time?

I know you say you're in a bad financial situation. Sell the house, file for bankruptcy, simplify your life so you can live within more reasonable means. The best thing you can do for your children is NOT to make enough to live in a big house with lots of cool toys. The best thing you can do is to give them a loving, stable relationship with their father.

You need to welcome your husband back in to his home. You need to welcome his use of snooping. You need to be willing to let go of your anger and resentment. You need to stop bringing up past hurts (I mean seriously, crap from 10 years ago?!?!?!). You need to stop working these rediculous hours. You need to schedule 20+ hours with your husband and 15+ hours with your kids/ family. You need to focus on YOU.

I know my words may seem a bit hard. I am coming from a place of love though. I want you to have the marriage you deserve. I want your children to feel the love and security that comes from a happy, loving marriage. You have to realize, however, that you are your own worst enemy here. You are getting advice from the best and disregarding it to do things your way, it isn't working. Why don't you try trusting the people who've been there and done that?


Me & DH: 28
Married 8/20/05
1DD, 9 mo.
Just Lookin' and Learnin'
HIYA!
HopefulButScared #2382229 05/30/10 11:58 AM
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LOG,

The point where the fire gets the hottest is the point where healing begins.
Every story has two sides.

I am somewhat of a lurker, but I have watched MelodyLane and others over the years on this board. They are very good at this and I assure you, have your best interest at heart in saving your marriage.

You have lived in your "truth" for a while. It is time you see it from others perspective.

Let them help you.

Your husband is on board

He doesn't need a poly to start this recovery..you do.Meaning he is willing to start recovery without one, but in taking one it will alleviate both your fears.

No one is taking sides here. They are only going by what you say and you have said a lot.

From reading your posts it seems you have taken a stance of demanding and controlling based on the past.

No matter what you do short of riding a time machine, the past won't change. However you can change the present and plan for the future.

Let it go

Let them help you.

You got to let it go

You also know that your actions are "suspect"

shaken #2382237 05/30/10 12:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
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To be clear, I will do the polygraph, because the truth is as I've stated, and because my hope is that it will allow LoG to let go of some of the things to which she's never gotten a satisfactory answer, because sometimes the truth simply doesn't explain it well.

The murder suspect with no alibi wishes he'd been having a beer with his priest at the time the victim was killed. But with no alibi, no one will ever really know whether he did it. Life doesn't always give you an alibi, or an easy explanation, and when that happens, doubt is created.

But from the poly she will learn there has never been an EA or PA, she will learn I haven't been online for porn since the blow up 9-10 years ago, and that my use since then has been sporadic as I've claimed.

We both have resentment, and it's unhealthy for me to hold mine, just as it is for her. I will let it go, and move forward, but it's hard. It may well be harder for her, but that I can't control that.

I will also confirm that my wife has worked long hours for years, and that fact is not the primary reason I've been suspicious these past few months. I had no concerns about those long hours (nor was I happy about them) until recently, when they were added to other behaviors not discussed on the forum.

What I am saying is that being falsely accused sucks. I know, as my anger last night showed. If she's not a WW, than it is difficult for her to prove innocence when the evidence says otherwise.

I just talked to her briefly, and she is upset and withdrawn. Please continue to support us in this crappy time.

Last edited by HopefulButScared; 05/30/10 12:30 PM.

Me 41
W 38

Married 10 years, together 13

3 Kids: DS5, DS2 and DD1
HopefulButScared #2382239 05/30/10 12:41 PM
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I am hoping this Memorial Day will give you both something joyous to remember.


Preach the Gospel every day. When necessary, use words.
St. Francis of Assissi
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