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Kim, the problem that I see here is that your H has really not taken ownership of affair proofing your marriage

Mel- I agree. But, again- how can I even talk to him about this? He insists and swears that he HAS affair proofed himself. That he would rather shoot himself in the head than ever have another affair. He SAYS all the right things but then acts in a completely different manner. It leaves me no where to go.

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HE* should be policing himself when he is alone and he is not doing that.

Right again. Its a long ingrained habit in my H ( and again - no DJ intended) that he leaves everything up to someone else. If we were borken, its up to me to fix it. Everything has been left up to me to fix, decide, research. He wants to assume responsibility for nothing. And let me tell you, that is no fun. Im worn out by being the one that is responsible for all the maritial wear and tear. So, its not surprise to me that he wouldnt see himself as responsible for policing himself, or for his own behavior.

I cant help but feel like I am not enough. If I was enough, or mattered more - he would do all these things. Intellectually, of course, I understand that I should internalize someone else's poor behavior and make it about my lack of worth, but I do.

Thats my own personal learning curve.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
And, His personality is the exact opposite of aggressive. As a matter of fact, he is alarmingly passive. To the point of inertia most days. That isnt to say of course that there isnt alot of hidden aggression in the passivity. I KNOW there is. I personally saw his first post as a very PA type of response.

My H was very upset at reading all of these posts and he knows that I am likely to leave him. His response about throwing up was in reaction to that.

Here is the truth. He is a smart guy with very little emotional intelligence. He doesnt have very well developed interpersonal skills and Im not sure he understands how to have a relationship or genuine intimacy.

If you good people could help him to understand, Id be terribly grateful.

I think its too late for us, but maybe helping him to learn these things will save someone else some pain somewhere down the road.

The fact that you are here and he is here tells me that it isn't too late. I would change your conscious thinking about that.

Your H doesn't see what he's doing because what he's doing is normal for him. He may say it's an 'anomalie' but I suspect he does it much more than he realizes.

You can sit and watch someone with their legs crossed, wiggling their foot like it's having its own seizure, and when you point it out they're surprised they're doing it. Habit.

I'm going to go back to what I mentioned in an earlier post. Your H needs help overcoming this habit of staring at women. Consider 'training' your H in appropriate ways to navigate around women.

First of all, he need to understand that women don't appreciate leering. Whether they communicate that to him or not is immaterial. When he leers at a woman he is pushing her boundaries. That's disrespectful to the woman and makes her uncomfortable. He needs to realize that as a means of personalizing this strange woman. She's not just a piece of meat to be stared at. She's a human being with boundaries.

Next, go out with your H to places where there will be women. Grocery stores, malls, etc. Walk behind him and observe how he reacts to the women he sees. Give him a critique on how he does. This is not meant to be a DJ. You'll need to approach this as his 'coach' and he'll need to allow you to do that.

My H had a similar issue - for some reason he needed to engage people wherever we went, making silly "hey look at me I'm somebody" type comments. It could be the grocery bagger, cart boy, whomever. So much so that you could imagine them rolling their eyes when we left.

One time, he was getting his hair cut and the salon's phone rang. He jumped up and ANSWERED IT, thinking it would be funny. doh2 The girl who cuts both of our hair told me about it later - she was appalled, and said "If that had been my boss I would have been in trouble." He did it to get attention, to make people think he was funny. He didn't consider that it was just a bid for attention that could have had negative consequences for someone. It was all about attention, which is an EN of his.

Anyway, don't want to threadjack - my point is that I had to help teach him that it was inappropriate to go 'over the top' to get the attention of strangers while conducting his business. He never realized he was doing it.

Hope this helps.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
First, while I thank you all from the bottom of my heart, please please be respectful to Mister JK. He made the effort to get a log in and post and has gotten slammed. Please. He needs your help. While I understand better than anyone how his behavior is worthy of contempt, it is not helping him or me. So, if you could be a little kinder, Id be awfully grateful.

I didn't know that was your H, just thought it was a troll. Hi, Mister JK! Hey, start your own thread - don't worry about the heat. We're not going to 2X4 you to be mean - we're here to help you.


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Will MR jk have one phone call with the Harley's?

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Originally Posted by JustKim
Markos, Cat

Point taken. DJ. Got it. I can see how that would be considered a DJ. There is a part of me that wants to respond with "But its true..."

There's an evil little part of me that says that DJs usually are true. They are still DJs.

I think that's really minor compared to the rest of what's going on. Your DJ amounts to nothing compared to the fact that your wayward husband is not taking extreme precautions and is not engaged in a plan for recovery.

I think you know that Marriage Builders says you should have gone into Plan B a long time ago. It sounds like you have been doing a great Plan A for FOUR YEARS, which is way, way too long for anybody.

When your wayward doesn't take extreme precautions and doesn't engage in a plan for recovery, you go to Plan B to protect your sanity.

I know you say want to Plan D right now. I encourage you to start Plan D with a declaration of what it would take to keep you in the marriage, followed by a statement that since you are not getting that, YOU ARE OUT. Followed by divorce papers.

Yesterday you said it was over. Today you are expressing concern for your husband's future. It doesn't sound to me like you are done. I suspect your husband has been able to live down to low expectations from you; I suspect that the last four years have had a number of other things done by your husband that have bothered you that you have decided to "let slide" "for the sake of the marriage" or something like that. This is not Marriage Builders!! Marriage Builders does not advocate you staying in a marriage that sucks when your husband is a wayward!

Make it a firm Plan D or B (they are awfully similar in the beginning), with a firm NON-NEGOTIABLE declaration of what would have kept you in the marriage, followed by GETTING THE HELL OUT OF THERE. It is possible a miracle might happen and your husband might realize he could have a chance at winning you back by actually working on the marriage. But this is not possible if your resolve keeps weakening. I suspect you had the "possible he might change and win me back" scenario in your post where you talked about your husband hopefully discovering how to live so that whoever gets stuck with him next could be saved down the road. I could be wrong. But that is what it sounded like to me.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
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Originally Posted by JustKim
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it looks like he's had a long time to learn and has chosen not to. I'm worried that perhaps your bar has not been set high enough.

I think he would tell you differently. I think he feels that he has learned alot.

Well, shoot, that would make him a liar in addition to being a creep, wouldn't it? He can't have learned too much. He skipped the first and most important lessons.

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Have I told him what would keep me in it? No. Because right now, I dont think much will.

According to Marriage Builders, you were supposed to tell him somewhere around Plan A or B, four years ago. Perhaps he hasn't figured it out because he wasn't told. I am NOT saying his behavior is your fault; it is inexcusable. I am saying that he is still a wayward and won't live up to former wayward status until he is required to.

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Yes, 4 years. The first 2 years of recovery were me dragging a reluctant H through all the work needed. What I eman when I say reluctant is that he was reluctant to do the work required. NOT that he was reluctant to end the A. He threw OW under the bus pretty quickly after d day. He just didnt seem to want to put in much effort into making things better. He WANTED them to be better, of course. But I did all the heavy lifting.

That's horrible for you to have to live through that, Kim. And it isn't Marriage Builders. Marriage Builders would be closer to having you throwing him under the bus and not welcoming him back to try recovery if he isn't willing to lift harder than that.

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People just didnt mean that much to him and if it was a hassle, he would do nothing and let it end.

Are you scared to raise the bar too high for him because you believe he'll perceive it as a hassle and let your marriage end?

In that case, I suggest you get away from him, fast.

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Years 3 and 4 have mostly seen some investment on the part of my H and a growing discontent and distance in me.

Then his investment is completely misguided. He is doing the wrong things and wasting effort. Plan B would protect you from this growing discontent and distance.

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Like most BS's here, I feel that the only way I could stay, to work through the pain was to be justly compensated with a great marriage. And I dont have that.

So why did you stay four years without it? What is your time limit for how long you will put up with this?

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So, what have we done? Counseling w Steve Harley for 8 months, coaching with Kimberly even now. MB weekend. 2 imago weekends, and a completely ineffectual marriage counselor. Thousands of dollars in self help books.

I don't understand. I've bought every single Marriage Builders book, and it didn't cost thousands of dollars. Marriage Builders is the program that works. Why are you spending thousands of dollars on books that don't work? For $100 you can have all the books from the program that works. Burn those other books and stick to the program that works.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Originally Posted by JustKim
BC

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The issue is, that most times PA people will not admit there IS a problem. Without that, there is little hope for improvement.

Indeed. My H will openly admit that "He used to react in very PA ways" but he doesnt see it now. He claims that he "isnt" this way anymore. Which of course, doesnt seem possible. He has gotten no help for it, learned no new ways of coping. He is just as PA as ever, just deeper underground about it. Is that a DJ?

No, that is your instincts letting you know that there is an extraordinary, severe problem and that your husband is not engaged in a plan of recovery and should be shown the door.

I am concerned that you have ignored your instincts for far too long, and will ignore them now.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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ROAD-

Im sure he would have a call with the Harleys. As I mentioned we are no stranger to counseling with them and it is hugely helpful.

MR JK is starting his own thread although I see that it was started for him, so thank you!


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Originally Posted by JustKim
And here is where I get all confused and muddled. My H claims this incident was an anomalie.

Two years of you doing the heavy lifting, followed by two years of him "lifting" in ways that do absolutely nothing for you? This incident is not an anomaly: it fits perfectly into his wayward pattern of not practicing caring love for you nor engaging in a plan for recovery. Go to Plan B or D because he hasn't met the standards to be given a chance for recovery, yet.

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As a matter of fact, I think this is part of a much more sinister, darker side of my H that Ive never seen and he has hidden from me.

Oh, no. You have seen this sinister, darker side. It's the side that required you to do all the heavy lifting for two years and has then wasted the next two years by not engaging in a plan for recovery. He hasn't hidden it at all. I'm worried you've been ignoring it.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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JK:

I have followed your story since you got here. I have seen the rollercoaster that you are on. Its time for you to step on to the platform, and watch the cosater go by for a few turns.

Your stated this:
Quote
Yes, 4 years. The first year was all hysterical bonding with me doing alot of work. Year 2 was more of me doing all the work, and a good amount of resentment on my part. Years 3 and 4 have mostly seen some investment on the part of my H and a growing discontent and distance in me. Most days, I feel like had I known I was in for this, I would have thrown int he towel on d day. Like most BS's here, I feel that the only way I could stay, to work through the pain was to be justly compensated with a great marriage. And I dont have that.

So, what have we done? Counseling w Steve Harley for 8 months, coaching with Kimberly even now. MB weekend. 2 imago weekends, and a completely ineffectual marriage counselor. Thousands of dollars in self help books.

And we still are broken.


Your not broken. MrJK is. You have put in the effort to fiix your marriage, to have someone who is sitting on the sidelines, enjoying the benefits, (hysterical bonding) and not doing the other things necessary to move this M forward. Sure, he sat in the room, and went to the weekend. But after a while, its about changing behaviors.

And MrJK is content to watch the parade, but not participate. That is why you get to step of onto the platform. You do NOT have to have a marraige like you have any longer.

Its his turn to do the work.

Its his turn to change the behaviors and habits.

Its his turn to help you feel safe in this marraige. To feel loved and cherished.

Because when you are DONE, than no matter what, the M will end. And maybe, that is what MrJK needs to see, to finally get in gear.

LG


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Originally Posted by JustKim
Mel- I agree. But, again- how can I even talk to him about this?

Don't waste any more time talking than the time it takes to say "This is what would have kept me in the marriage. Bye."

You said you were done. Are you?

Quote
He insists and swears that he HAS affair proofed himself. That he would rather shoot himself in the head than ever have another affair. He SAYS all the right things but then acts in a completely different manner. It leaves me no where to go.

Don't you understand that waywards lie? With a wayward you have to ignore what they are saying and look at what they are doing. You've told us what he's done: abused you for two years, then tricked you into accepting wasted effort for two years. Wayward.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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I am concerned that you have ignored your instincts for far too long, and will ignore them now.

Im concerned about this too. It very well may be time to throw in the towel but am I on the fence? You betcha. There are some really great things about my H.

I dont want a divorce. I want the parts of my H that I dont love and respect to become parts that I DO love and respect. I want him to change habits, and get fully on board with MB.

I want to give him a chance, and I need you folks to help him. I cant explain things to him in a way he understands so Im hoping maybe others can.

Will you help us?


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Markos

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Don't you understand that waywards lie? With a wayward you have to ignore what they are saying and look at what they are doing. You've told us what he's done: abused you for two years, then tricked you into accepting wasted effort for two years. Wayward.

Are you saying my H still has a wayward mindset or is still actively wayward?

Im compiling a list now of what I need in order to stay in the M and I am setting the bar VERY VERY high. You are right, in the past it was set so low. I didnt think I was worth it. I didnt think he'd put in much effort to keep me. I suppose he really hasnt, in a lot of ways.

I will post my list here, and My H will post on his own thread.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
First, while I thank you all from the bottom of my heart, please please be respectful to Mister JK. He made the effort to get a log in and post and has gotten slammed. Please. He needs your help. While I understand better than anyone how his behavior is worthy of contempt, it is not helping him or me. So, if you could be a little kinder, Id be awfully grateful.

You seem to feel that your husband is awfully fragile.

I've only been here a few months, and already I've seen SEVERAL waywards go through heat much hotter than what has been expressed on this thread and come out as beautiful pottery because of the baking process. With a lovely calligraphic "F" burned in.

The ones that crack in the kiln are the ones that had fatal flaws in the first place.

Your husband is a big boy, I promise you.


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J/K:

I still think that you are Flamingo.

Except I was never a Marine. I was Air Force.

I read your posts and say: That's my Flamingo. I KNOW what I had to do to help Flamingo feel safe.

I hope that MrJK does the same things.

There are many good qualities about him. I would like to think that there were many good qualities about me as well. I just had to work on the ones that made Flamingo NOT feel safe. I am sure that they are very similar to the same ones that MrJK is missing.

So there is hope.

LG


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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
The fact that you are here and he is here tells me that it isn't too late. I would change your conscious thinking about that.
I think the same, I think that this is fixable.
I'm not 4 yrs. into R, and I have not felt like you have for this long. I would support whatever it is that you feel that you need to do to protect yourself, at this time.
Mr.JK has work to do. The fact that you feel this unsafe in this M, is due to his lack of care and protection of YOU. Period.
He is not understanding that although he feels that he has A-proofed his M, he has not.
It comes down to, is he even willing to explore the fact that his thinking is not fixed as well as he may think.

That's the tough one, we as BS's can give all the feedback, unless the WS is open to looking DEEP into that mirror, what we say and do, means very little.


Quote
Your H doesn't see what he's doing because what he's doing is normal for him. He may say it's an 'anomalie' but I suspect he does it much more than he realizes.
I agree with this too. I think that this is habit.
A habit in two parts. One part is the leering, one part is thinking of his own needs. The part that is occupied with himself, and what satisfies him, is the part that
should be concerned with protecting you and the M.
Habits can be broken, we know that.
Whether Mr.JK feels the benefit to break this habit and move his thinking towards the M, is up to him.
This is the part that is so frustrating for a BS, we want them
to so desperately think like we want them too. It's a tough one to accept.

Unless Mr.JK does this for himself, it's not genuine and the same LB's creep back in, the same ones that led to the devastation from the A.

To Mr. JK ..... Another A doesn't have to occur Mr. JK, for the demise of the M, one that has already threatened by adultery.

If you are so inclined Mr. JK, starting your own thread and posting would be a first step. If you are not comfortable with that, at least read some threads of WS's.
The insight that hopefully you will gain, will help you to understand how to move your thinking from you, to JK and your M.

You could start with this one.
Extra-Ordinary Precautions




M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA


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LG-

You are one of my favorite posters and the very first one to post to me four years ago. You were a lifeline then, as now.

You are right. You are all right.

Im starting with a list of what I need to stay in the M. I will post it here and hopefully you good people can help me see what I am missing. Do I add a timeline? That seems excessive.

The truth is, I dont really know how to do this.


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MBliss

I dont want to skip over your post- this thread is moving fast and furious! Alot of what you said resonated with me.

Quote
The fact that you are here and he is here tells me that it isn't too late. I would change your conscious thinking about that.

Your H doesn't see what he's doing because what he's doing is normal for him. He may say it's an 'anomalie' but I suspect he does it much more than he realizes.

You are right about changing my thinking. IF I decide to recommit, my thinking will change. Like LG said, Ive been at this a LONG time and have fallen into the massively distructful habit of "thats it, I cant take it anymore" and then..... having no plan, floundering around in misery for a few days and then getting back on the horse, or at least, dragged around by it.

NO MORE.

I need a plan. A plan that focuses on first, my own recovery and second, possibly recovery for my M IF MR JK can step up.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
Markos

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Don't you understand that waywards lie? With a wayward you have to ignore what they are saying and look at what they are doing. You've told us what he's done: abused you for two years, then tricked you into accepting wasted effort for two years. Wayward.

Are you saying my H still has a wayward mindset or is still actively wayward?

I am saying he at least has a wayward mindset. It would not surprise me to find out he is still wayward, too. He molested a woman visually in your presence; I'd call that "wayward."

Quote
Im compiling a list now of what I need in order to stay in the M and I am setting the bar VERY VERY high. You are right, in the past it was set so low.

clap I am so glad to hear this!!

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I didnt think I was worth it.

Honey, it's the wayward whose not worth it if he's not willing to reform from the wayward mindset.

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My H will post on his own thread.

clap


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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It comes down to, is he even willing to explore the fact that his thinking is not fixed as well as he may think.

Vittoria

That is such a valid statement and very true. My gut feeling is, he wont/cant/doesnt know how but Im going to let him decide.

Markos -

I DO think my H is VERY VERY sensitive to what he sees as an attack. When this happens, he withdraws and becomes defensive. Its like banging on a turtle shell. He's just not coming out after that and you wont get anywhere. That doesnt mean he shouldnt hear some hard truths. He does. Im just asking that we dont scare him away.

Im a protector by nature. I root for the under dog, drive miles out of my way to give cash and supplies every week to a homeless guy. I have huge empathy for anyone hurting. Does Mr JK deserve my grace? I think he does. Dont we all deserve it?

I get that Mr JK has also likely taken advantage of this part of me, and used it to coast. For a LONG time.


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DDay: 4/29/06
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