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BTinTrouble #2383689 06/02/10 08:24 AM
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We dont have an address for OM after all this, so going to ask Jennifer about that next time, since (F?)WW has said she will do an NC letter, but we dont know an appropriate way to make sure he gets it.


Call OMW and ask her for her address.

This is TOO important a step to skip!

BTinTrouble #2383702 06/02/10 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Also, OM of course told her he has been tested every 2 years, and never had it, but I told her "I hope you can understand why I still want you to be tested." I figure get her tested first, if she is all clean, then I should be as well.

Right?

You should get tested as well. Some people can be carriers without contracting the disease themselves.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
BTinTrouble #2383715 06/02/10 09:27 AM
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(F?)WW has said she wont contact him, but recognizes that the way they talked last, it leaves OM open to thinking he should try contact her.

Women commonly feel the need for "closure contact". Just be aware.

Many false recoveries start with that.

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Also, OM of course told her he has been tested every 2 years, and never had it, but I told her "I hope you can understand why I still want you to be tested." I figure get her tested first, if she is all clean, then I should be as well.

Save money on something else. Its peace of mind to know. I had very little exposure but I still did it.

Last edited by YEG; 06/02/10 09:29 AM.

(ME) BS - 33YO
(HER) WW - 32YO
Married 7 years
DD5
D-Day - 5/1/10 (PA)
Exposure 5/7/10
Plan A 5/7/10 -
Plan B or Recovery on 7-1-10 Its in her court ATM
My thread
BTinTrouble #2383718 06/02/10 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
(F?)WW has said she wont contact him, but recognizes that the way they talked last, it leaves OM open to thinking he should try contact her.

Then get rid of that phone. Or change the number.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

maritalbliss #2383994 06/02/10 03:15 PM
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BT, how are you doing?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2384145 06/02/10 08:40 PM
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Hey BT, looks like things are progressing......

Hope you are okay, do not forget to take care of yourself as this is most definitely a marathon.

Still_Crazy #2384193 06/02/10 09:35 PM
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Sorry guys....

Lots of UA time with my (F?)WW.

She sat with me and we read Basic Concepts Summary all the way through. She was very excited seeing stuff like the States of marriage (intimicy, conflict, and withdrawal) and how it explained things exactly.

Worked out tonight together. Going to try get STD tested this weekend.

Next appointment with Jennifer on Monday.

Friends that are coming down had their U-haul start on fire... they might be a day or so late now...

oops


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2384218 06/02/10 10:16 PM
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That sounds wonderful, BT! I'm happy to hear she's doing this with you.

Will she give you a signed, handwritten no-contact letter that you can look over and send? I wouldn't necessarily bring this up right this second, but it'd be a good idea to ask for at some point, soon.

Have you got a full 15+ hour (preferably 20-30) UA schedule for the week? Do you know what four needs to focus on during that time? I would get in the habit of scheduling the UA time weekly for sure. For the rest of your life. If you can get ahold of the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook, the UA schedule form in there has a place for each of you to indicate how many hours of UA time you actually received, which can help keep you accountable.

Are you still conducting surveillance on her? DO NOT lower the bar! She will live down to it!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
BTinTrouble #2384228 06/02/10 10:29 PM
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Please, slow down. Don't put an F in front of WW and don't put recovery in your signature right now. She's got to show that she can get through at least a month or two without contacting OM. Don't put the cart before the horse. Right now you need to be focused mostly on preventing future contact from occurring. She'll have to get through about 2 months of withdrawal before she can possibly commit to anything. I just want you to know so that you aren't trying to rush things, or worse yet, be naive and think you are in recovery when there is still contact ongoing.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
jmwc95 #2384466 06/03/10 10:56 AM
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k, havent talked to lawyers yet...

We are supposed to do ENQ for next appointment with Jennifer.

I check her phone against the phone bill. Pretty sure she knows. I also havent left her alone with our Son yet. Not once. Work has been very good, helped that I got like 68 hours logged during that trip, holiday on Monday, so I didnt really have work this week anyway (compensetory time off after 40 hours).

I am checking things.

I will leave the (F?)WW and Possible recovery in my signature, because thats what it is...

a question

She says she is, but its a question if its real.

We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.

(F?)WW called OM a b******d last night after a brief discussion about STD exposure. Seems he hadnt mentioned the possibility.


Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2384475 06/03/10 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
I will leave the (F?)WW and Possible recovery in my signature, because thats what it is...

a question

She says she is, but its a question if its real.
You are wise to look at it like this. This is very, very soon, BT.

We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.
What the real story is isn't important. The point is for your WW to be committed enough to be willing to do it. Send it to OM as registered mail. He'll have to go to the post office to sign for it and pick it up. This is a very important step and cannot be swept under the rug, BT.

(F?)WW called OM a b******d last night after a brief discussion about STD exposure. Seems he hadnt mentioned the possibility.
Well, sure, he's a b*****d. He is by definition, since he's the OM. This doesn't mean your WW has washed her hands of him. Be careful, BT. I think she's still wayward and still foggy.

Last edited by maritalbliss; 06/03/10 11:23 AM. Reason: Holy Mackeral! Where's My Grammar Today!?

D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

BTinTrouble #2384499 06/03/10 11:22 AM
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She says she is, but its a question if its real.


She spent last weekend with him. That was ummm.....3-days ago.

She has a lot of work to do to earn the big F in front of her WW moniker and to do otherwise is somewhat insulting to the real FWWs here that did do the work.

Stay vigilant about snooping and contact. Get a NC letter to him immediately. Send it certified for his signature if you have to.


Testosterone boys! Testosterone! It ain’t just for nose, ear and back hair anymore!
chrisner #2384993 06/04/10 06:00 AM
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certified for signature, good idea!!

Any F WS's here, please dont be offended, not at all what I am going for.

Definately still foggy.

She still seems upset with me for exposure, says it was an immature way to handle it.

Still compares things I did to her affair. Suddenly she has just told me that about a year ago she thought I was having an affair, and so she cant trust me either. And that I caused her pain before her affair so while shbe still says her affair was wrong, she ends the sentance with "we hurt eachother."

I call her on all of those points once, but mostly, I just tell her I understand what she is saying. Inside, I recognize that its WW fog, and as we do MB together, she will probably figure most of that out.

She has already figured out lots of stuff, different statements in just the last couple days.

Anyway...

I will stop putting (F?)WW. How do I refer to her? I know there is NC because I monitor everything...

Asked her if she had said anything in her car that she wouldnt have watned recorded when she went to her interview. Instead of the "OH CRAP" look I got the, "Wow... you bugged the car too?" look.

Overheard her talkign to her mom last night.

"Yeah, I am pretty much grounded. He is watching me like a hawk. No, there is no trust. Well, we have to build it mom. I did this, so we have to build trust again. Well, this counselor, they have helped so many people and sold so many books and the stuff really makes sense, so we are working on it."

I think she was talking louder for my benefit, so I sort of suspect it, and I DONT feel bad for that either...



Lifelong recovery never ends.

BTinTrouble #2385011 06/04/10 07:20 AM
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BT,

A couple of things...

First the part to ignore is that part about exposure being immature. She was acting like a love-sick 13 year old and you stood up and acted like an adult. Her comment that expose was immature you can pretty much ignore...

Now, for the part to learn from...

When she talks of things you did before the affair hurting her; these are the things you need to address, not to correct her thinking, because there is nothing wrong with her thinking on this point. The only change in thinking she needs is in thinking that you hurting her made her having the affair alright or right or justifiable or anything but the wrong thing to do. The equivocation of the hurt from your Love Busters (which is what is being talked about here) and the hurt caused by the affair will fade as she begins to understand things better. Understand that she may never fully comprehend how much pain she has caused you nor how much damage she has done to your relationship.

But when she says that you hurt her before the affair, this is the 50% ownership of the state of the relationship that gets talked about around here. Our spouse falls out of love with us because we commit acts that hurt him or her emotionally. These are Love Busters, BT. AOs, DJs, SDs, IB, Lying (all forms) and even some of those things that she once found cute that have now become annoying habits that drive her crazy. They can all take away from the Love Bank and can cause hurt feelings.

Think about things she complained about, not during the affair, but a year ago, or even two or three. Look back to see what she was complaining about BEFORE she dropped into a state of Withdrawal and wanted nothing to do with you.

Be careful as you introduce her to MB that you don't do it by using SDs, DJs and AOs. Also beware the dreaded IB in the name of improving your relationship. The single most important thing you can do right now is to begin spending time with ehr, not discussing the affair or who hurt who or what lesson in the workbook you need to tackle next but simply being together doing simply but fun things.

Limit affair and repair talks to small amounts of time, always scheduled and kept to the minimum you actually need to discuss it. You have been here long enough that you have the basics of MB down pretty well. She won't catch up for a while but while you wait for that, realize that you have to actually DO the MB stuff for it to work. Knowing it is not enough. You have to stop AOs, DJs and SDs. You have to examine your own behavior IB and begin following POJA (even without her ever learning it if necessary) and be honest about your own life including your feelings without being overbearing or domineering about the way you present things. And when she whines about those little things, like the socks on the floor of the bedroom beside the hamper instead of inside it, or the cap left off the toothpaste tube in the bathroom, or the toilet seat that was left up in the middle of the night that she sees as a trap she has to negotiate without turning on the lights...This kind of thing is the annoying habits part of the deal and you need to begin to create NEW habits to replace the old ways with things that take her feelings into account. Begin to replace thoughtlessness (things done without thinking)with thoughtful (things done as if by design) behavior.

If you are going to end up with a MB marriage in the end from all of this, now is when YOU have to begin following MB processes and methods. Just like during the affair, you can't control what she does or does not do only what YOU are going to do. So it's up to you to do it.

Unless the fantasy was pretty weak to begin with, realize that at least one attempt at contact is likely from one side or the other. How it is handled is more important than whether or not it happens. Watch for it, but don't turn it into a separate issue; it is all part of the same affair. If you don't learn of contact, don't worry about it, but watch for signs that it has begun to take place repeatedly. Snoop as much as you need but don't challenge her thinking if you find foggy emails to friends and family. (as long as these aren't newly acquired male friends)...

Mark

BTinTrouble #2385018 06/04/10 07:30 AM
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As long as she's foggy she's a WW. You'll know when she's coming out of it by her actions. Don't put too much weight on her conversation with her mom - you caught it yourself. She may be saying a lot of things for your benefit.

Writing that NC letter is a big first step to de-fogging. Her willingness to do that will tell you a lot.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

BTinTrouble #2385021 06/04/10 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
Suddenly she has just told me that about a year ago she thought I was having an affair, and so she cant trust me either.

She's welcome to check up on you however she wants, right?

btw, don't give up all your snooping techniques.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
BTinTrouble #2385085 06/04/10 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BTinTrouble
She still seems upset with me for exposure, says it was an immature way to handle it.

I know you shouldn't say this, but if I were you, I couldn't help myself and say, "You are right, I may not be as mature as a 50 year-old."

Actually, I would say, I wasn't going for MATURE, I was going for EFFECTIVE.

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I will stop putting (F?)WW. How do I refer to her?

Uh, WW.

Quote
Asked her if she had said anything in her car that she wouldnt have watned recorded when she went to her interview. Instead of the "OH CRAP" look I got the, "Wow... you bugged the car too?" look.

Don't give up your intel sources. You may still need them.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
BTinTrouble #2385130 06/04/10 11:05 AM
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We need to do an NC letter soon. I dont want to send it to OMWs house because, honestly, between her, her kids, and OM, none of them can agree on a story, so I dont know if ANY of them are actually telling the truth. I dont want NC letter to get sent to OM, opened and discarded by OMW.

I wouldnt worry about the OM actually getting the letter. I think its more important that she sends it.

Women especially need closure. Just sending it allows that to happen. Who cares if he has closure. He seems to be in it mainly for the Physical side. Now that its too big of a PITA he will likely move on to the next victim.

Best of luck to you brother and I'm praying for you.


(ME) BS - 33YO
(HER) WW - 32YO
Married 7 years
DD5
D-Day - 5/1/10 (PA)
Exposure 5/7/10
Plan A 5/7/10 -
Plan B or Recovery on 7-1-10 Its in her court ATM
My thread
YEG #2385216 06/04/10 12:54 PM
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Agree with YEG...

Whether or not OM ever gets the letter is not even the point in sending it. The whole point is that she states in her own words the willingness to attempt recovery and closes the door on a renewal of the affair. It is a demonstration of her recommitting to the marriage more than a threat to OM.

The test will be if she is contacted by OM in the future and instead of interacting with him in any way, shape or form informs you of his attempted contact.

Mark

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He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

The above was written a long time ago by -who knows who?
It is a message often shared on "other woman" message/advice forums.

One day soon, you might share it with your WW.
When the fog is starting to clear, and there is some residual admiration she holds for OM and her feelings for him.

I just wanted to share it with you, albeit a little premature.

Take care


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