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Originally Posted by JustKim
Markos

Funny man! I can name them but only if I cheat, thats how far we've gotten off track.

Lets see - I will be honest and name what I can without peeking.

1. 15 hours week together
2. no DJ's
3. POJA
4. Avoid being your spouses source of greatest unhappiness
5. meet emotional needs
6. no angry outbursts
7. No selfish demands


dear god! I was just saying the other day how much "smart' Ive lost. When I was in college, I retained SO MUCH.

Id better go brush up!!

CAN HE???

The only reason I asked if you can name them is so you'll be able to tell if he is putting them into practice or not.

The important thing is whether he can name AND DO these things.

Remember that waywards lie. Remember that your husband is still a wayward. If his lips are moving, he's lying. Ignore what he says. Watch what he does.

Incidentally, your list is quite off. #1 has a name. Most of the others on your list are not items on Dr. Harley's list of ten basic concepts.

Last edited by markos; 06/03/10 11:32 AM.

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yeah- I get that it has a name. They all have names. I was quickly summarizing. Its called the policy of undivided attention.


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JK i am sorry if i upset MrJK with my post but if you remember you and i have very similar h's and your sitch hits close to home for me.

Not too long ago (a couple of months) i wrote my h a very long letter. In that letter, i started with the fact that nothing i wrote was meant to hurt, blame, or punish him in any way and that i was not a perfect spouse myself. I then wrote out EVERY single thing that he ahd done in our 25 years when i felt he had ignored my feelings or disrespected me (of course i could only remember the big things) and i finished it up basically with that i needed ACTIONS words were no longer enough for me or else i was walking too.

The first day or so he tried to turn it around by "feeling sorry for himself because he was such an a**hole throughout our whole marriage" (i know DJ but that is what it felt like). But then i do not know what happened but he has started making changes to make me feel more protected.

I have also notice that the letter is still in his car, maybe as a reminder, i dunno but i do know that he is for the first time in 25 years SHOWING me he wants to protect our marriage.

Just a thought......

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SC-

Im gald to hear that things have improved somewhat in your M. Like me, you have set the bar low and your H has done little to help you heal. I think in alot of ways, youve been stuck in misery because of his lack of inaction and your unwilligness to bail over it ( and believe me, Im not throwing rocks at glass houses. I know Im in a similiar boat)

I do know that something dramatic has shifted. Im not willing to accept less than what I deserve. And I deserve to have a happy committed marriage with a man who doesnt just talk the talk.

And so there you have it folks...



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Originally Posted by JustKim
yeah- I get that it has a name. They all have names. I was quickly summarizing. Its called the policy of undivided attention.

Sorry; I wasn't trying to knock you for getting the name wrong; just encouraging you to go review, and even more importantly to ascertain if your husband has figured out, after four years, even 10% of the list.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
[Mel- I agree. But, again- how can I even talk to him about this?

Kim, I don't understand. You HAVE talked to him about it for 4 years. The issue is not that you haven't spoken to him; but that he rejects the program.

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He insists and swears that he HAS affair proofed himself. That he would rather shoot himself in the head than ever have another affair. He SAYS all the right things but then acts in a completely different manner. It leaves me no where to go.

It leaves you nowhere you WANT to go, you mean. You don't have an easy option. He has already demonstrated that he won't change. He will say what you want to hear but that is as far as it gets..


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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The issue is not that you haven't spoken to him; but that he rejects the program.

Yep. It always comes back to him saying the right things but never actually *doing* them.

He has my list. He knows I wont settle and that the car is raised much much higher. Its up to him now and Im not fixing anything for him.


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So, Ive just been reading over on Mr JK's thread and Im struck by several things.

1. I know I should feel grateful and encouraged that he is posting. I am.

2. At the same time, I feel all "icky" - As I read Im seeing all the stuff he has done to me for years. 1/2 answers or no answers, glossing over much, revealing virtually nothing of himself and his motives. No self exploration. justification.

3. Is all of this a DJ? Am I wrong? I feel like living with him has got me all crazy. I dont know up from down anymore and I am feeling more hopeless than ever. Does anyone else see this and if so, can you try to explain it to him? I feel like I dont have the words anymore.


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Maybe it's best if for right now, you neither one read the other ones thread.

If you really want to give MrJK a chance, you have to give MrJK a chance, i know you have waited a really long time and are tired and weary of holding it all together and probably do not hold out much hope for anything.

However you did come here so i think you really would like for him to change and be the husband you deserve, but it will not happen over night and only you can decide how long you will wait for IMPLEMENTATION of his ACTIONS.

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SC-

I think you are right. Im not going to read his thread. If I do, I get tempted to coach him or try to fix him or things for him. Im going to just let this all unfold.

Thanks for the perspective


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Originally Posted by JustKim
SC-
I think you are right. Im not going to read his thread. If I do, I get tempted to coach him or try to fix him or things for him. Im going to just let this all unfold.
Thanks for the perspective

ITA - Kim stay over here for awhile, okay? Let us work with your H. We're being gentle, promise wink

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He has my list. He knows I wont settle and that the car is raised much much higher. Its up to him now and Im not fixing anything for him.

And put the car down or you'll hurt yourself. J/K! Just interjecting a little humor! dance2


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Oh MB you KILL me.

Kim, it is a GREAT idea for you to stay off of his thread. Let the MBers be the ones to give him the much needed 2x4's. They won't be LBs when they come from them. laugh



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Yeah, see? No LBs!

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In case you needed a little more levity with that car. grin


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Originally Posted by JustKim
3. Is all of this a DJ? Am I wrong? I feel like living with him has got me all crazy. I dont know up from down anymore and I am feeling more hopeless than ever. Does anyone else see this and if so, can you try to explain it to him? I feel like I dont have the words anymore.

JK,

In some ways this is all so difficult......but......in other ways it is so easy. The light bulb moments are so few and so far.

You are such a wonderful and strong person. When and what you write is so solid. I know what I see and read is why your H is with you as it is simply wonderful.

Yeah, you don't need to DJ your H as unfortunately he will simply hang himself and if you DJ him it becomes an excuse and you then need to be perfect and that isn't human.

Anyways. There are givers and there are takers in life. And both of us are destructive to relationships.

And what is even better is that both of us need the other to get what we want out of life and relationships. Givers that give without caring for themselves and takers that take without giving simply are missing alot out of life and we search out for the others that can balance us out and give us that richness we are looking for.

Accepting 1/2 answers or no answers, glossing over stuff, revealing virtually nothing is really just as much about you as it is him. If you are a giver you accept it and if you are a taker you take it. But, in the end none of you are happy nor content.

And living with him has got you all crazy?

Why blame him? Accept your responsibility. Think about it and do something - don't try to have someone explain it to him and change him. It is you and what you do that will change him and if you have no value to him he will do nothing......and you can't be afraid of that answer. That is the answer you really want to know and you need to go there.

Balance your giver and your taker. Challenge your taker to come out knowing your taker is protecting you and that your strength is giving to protect the other person. See where it leads you.

And last, trust yourself.


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Thank you all for your wonderfully insightful posts. They are all so helpful to me. I never wanted to join this "club" but Im awfully grateful to have such wonderful support.

TJD- Your post really has me thinking. I dont really know how to be anything other than a giver, I think. That sounds so magnanimous, doesnt it? In truth, it is most unhealthy. I give to the point of exhaustion, resentment and utter frustration. I give until Im empty.

I dont know if any of you are familiar with the Enneagram personality types. If you are interested, here is a link to an online test that will type you. Enneagram Institute

I am a type 2. Guess what 2's are known as? the giver/helper.

Its a place of growth for me. Ive been trained for so long that other people are far more important than me. They say awareness is the first step so Im grateful for that at least.

I find this so interesting...

Quote
Why blame him? Accept your responsibility. Think about it and do something - don't try to have someone explain it to him and change him. It is you and what you do that will change him and if you have no value to him he will do nothing......and you can't be afraid of that answer. That is the answer you really want to know and you need to go there.

This is what I do! Ive wait for Mr JK to learn something, and sit in misery hoping that he will "get it" because then if he does, I can then be happy. What crazy BS! But, how do I do this? Its all very well and good for me to sit here while I type ans say "Aha! TJD is so right - I need to take responsibility for this!!" That IS what I am saying of course. The thing is, what does that mean?? How do I do that? Am I doing it already by setting the bar high?

Ive thought alot about the bar being set low. Man, have I done that. Ive asked for things and when Mr JK would fail to deliver it, I would be so so hurt. I would accept the " Well, I AM going to do it - we just have different timelines" excuse or the "I just forgot" excuse. He is very very convincing. In fact, I think HE even believes it. Ive taught him that I will accept that. That he can throw a bunch of words at me, take a stab at doing what I asked to pacify me and then we limp along.

But, I never feel happy in my M. I never feel fulfilled or intimately connected with him.

I feel horribly lonely most of the time and chronically disappointed.

There is a subtle shift taking place here. I feel SO STRONG. I want my M to succeed. Im rooting for my H but Im also utterly prepared to leave. I havent felt that way before.



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This is really bothering me.....

I asked Mr JK last night what it was about the woman at the store that he couldnt keep his eyes off of her....

He responded that she had a really nice body and great legs. This was very hard for me to hear and felt like a punch in the gut for a few reasons

1. The OW had a great body and nice legs. She was my friend, so I know this and my H told me shortly after d day that that was one of the reasons he found her attractive

2. Hard for me to admit, even in an anonymous forum but I do not have a great body and nice legs. Like LG's Flamingo - I too have a weight problem. I need to lose a good 50 pounds. In fact, LG's portrayal of his W over on my H's thread (before I decided to stop reading there) hit home with me in a major major way.

So, here is why this is so confusing. My weight issues arent new. Mr JK met and married me when I was a little heavier than I am now. He has given me mixed signals over the years and even now, I cant really get a bead on what he *really* thinks. He tells me I am beautiful almost every day. That isnt hard for me to believe, because while I am overweight, I know I am one of those really attractive women, like a Queen Latifa thing. I take care of myself, look and dress great every day. Im overweight, but still sexy and pretty.

So, why the mixed signals? My H tells me how beautiful I am, how much he finds me attractive - but he doesnt look at me like he looked at this woman at the store. And I KNOW I dont look like her, or the OW. I *KNOW* I fall short in that area. Mr JK tells me he loves me as I am, yet he clearly covets something that I am not. And It makes me crazy. It makes me feel like he is lying to protect me and his efforts are so misguided because I would rather have him tell the truth. Id rather have him tell me " You know what JK, you are beautiful - I love you but I really need you to work on your X, Y, Z" . If he did this, Id at least feel that he was HONEST. Currently, I feel that he isnt honest. That he says what he thinks I want to hear to protect me. Ironically, it doesnt protect me at all. It makes me feel scared that he says one thing but acts in another way.

Would it hurt? Of course it would. But Id feel alot safer.

Id settle for that right now.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
He is very very convincing. In fact, I think HE even believes it. Ive taught him that I will accept that. That he can throw a bunch of words at me, take a stab at doing what I asked to pacify me and then we limp along.

JK,

Its been 4 years!

Yet look at the title of your thread. You don't trust yourself.

He gawked at a women and you are questioning yourself - am I overreacting.

He makes you feel crazy. He spins you and is passive aggressive and you talk about him spinning you and being passive aggressive and try to convince him to stop.

And it is all crap and you know it. Its simple BS.

Trust yourself.

Next time he gawks let him have the women he is gawking at. He wants her he can have her but he can't have you too. Walk out of that store without him. Put the ball in his court and let him decide instead of you trying to decide for him.


ME BH 40 - FWW 39

Sons - 9 and 7

DDAY - March 18,2006

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TJD

I do not believe it is possible to have a healthy relationship with someone who is PA. I just dont.

If I truly accept that, then Id have to accept that my H is posting here as a way to play me. That he is not recoverable, and Id be far better off without him.

That is a hard thing to swallow and it is why I question myself. At the same time, Im seeing it pretty clearly.

HE doesnt see it though. Even worse, maybe he DOES.



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Originally Posted by JustKim
This is really bothering me.....

I asked Mr JK last night what it was about the woman at the store that he couldnt keep his eyes off of her....

He responded that she had a really nice body and great legs. This was very hard for me to hear and felt like a punch in the gut for a few reasons

1. The OW had a great body and nice legs. She was my friend, so I know this and my H told me shortly after d day that that was one of the reasons he found her attractive

2. Hard for me to admit, even in an anonymous forum but I do not have a great body and nice legs. Like LG's Flamingo - I too have a weight problem. I need to lose a good 50 pounds. In fact, LG's portrayal of his W over on my H's thread (before I decided to stop reading there) hit home with me in a major major way.

So, here is why this is so confusing. My weight issues arent new. Mr JK met and married me when I was a little heavier than I am now. He has given me mixed signals over the years and even now, I cant really get a bead on what he *really* thinks. He tells me I am beautiful almost every day. That isnt hard for me to believe, because while I am overweight, I know I am one of those really attractive women, like a Queen Latifa thing. I take care of myself, look and dress great every day. Im overweight, but still sexy and pretty.

So, why the mixed signals? My H tells me how beautiful I am, how much he finds me attractive - but he doesnt look at me like he looked at this woman at the store. And I KNOW I dont look like her, or the OW. I *KNOW* I fall short in that area. Mr JK tells me he loves me as I am, yet he clearly covets something that I am not. And It makes me crazy. It makes me feel like he is lying to protect me and his efforts are so misguided because I would rather have him tell the truth. Id rather have him tell me " You know what JK, you are beautiful - I love you but I really need you to work on your X, Y, Z" . If he did this, Id at least feel that he was HONEST. Currently, I feel that he isnt honest. That he says what he thinks I want to hear to protect me. Ironically, it doesnt protect me at all. It makes me feel scared that he says one thing but acts in another way.

Would it hurt? Of course it would. But Id feel alot safer.

Id settle for that right now.

JK, your H isn't being honest with anyone right now, IMO. But this is still early in the repair stage. I think he needs to learn how to be honest.

You met important needs for him. That's why he married you. You still do. But he's like a kid in a candy shop - he likes the lollipop in his hand, but he looks at the rest of the case and wants it all. He needs to learn that the lollipop in his hand is good and is all he needs. To have more would not be good for him.

He lacks boundaries, to use adult terms. He needs to learn those. I think he will.



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Bliss-

What a great name, by the way.

My H and I got into a pretty bad fight awhile back. During the course of this fight, I told him I thought he was a fraud. I dont really know how that impacted him but I feel that it is a good assessment. He doesnt let himself be know by ANYONE. Including me. I have no idea anymore if he is a good guy or a bad guy. Im so confused, I feel like I am going to be sick.

I had to stop reading over on his thread because I saw alot of his responses where he reveals nothing and gives 1/2 answers and it just kills me. It makes me feel like giving up - that it is all so hopeless. That even now, when I am at the absolute end - he is still doing it. That he wont change. He will never be open and he will never be honest.

So, I stopped reading there.

You know, I have this terrible sinking fear that I cant shake. I fear that I am married to a man who hasnt been honest about anything. I fear that there is much much more for me to find out about his activities than I know.

I tell him that he would be doing me a supreme kindness if he came clean. He swears he has. SWEARS it. Yet, I cant get this feeling out of my gut.

I keep thinking back to when I first met my H. We worked together. Another woman I worked with told me not to go near him, that he was a "predator". I was SHOCKED to hear this. In fact, he and I laughed over it. A PREDATOR??? WTH! How could she have gotten it so so wrong.

I cant get that conversation out of my head.


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