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Thought I would share with everyone Dr Harleys response to my post

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The habit of gawking at attractive women goes beyond my category of "annoying habits." I consider it to be "independent behavior" -- behaving as if your spouse doesn't exist. Many women are very offended when their husbands do more than just glance at an attractive woman, and so I encourage their husbands to practice looking away, especially when their wives are not with them. If that doesn't work, I encourage them to control their lifestyle so that tempting conditions are eliminated. In one case, I encouraged a couple I counseled to move away from a beach where the husband was simply unable to stop staring at bikini-clad women. It worked.


Does this really work? Doesnt it really just practice avoidance and never really get to the bottom of the issue?

MJK and I are coaching w Kimberly. Kimberly relayed to Dr H that we ( MJK and I ) are going to start working together again. MJK is a brilliant developer. I needed to hire a really talented developer so my company hired him. Ive sort of been on the fence about that, but Dr H thinks it is a great idea. We would both work virtual and share an office ( which we do from time to time now) In some ways, this is a great thing. I have a ton of respect for MJK's professional knowledge and ability and we do have a great realtionship and get on very well as long as we dont scratch the surface.

Dr H thinks this will be a good thing for us but Im scared...


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Ive thought about this a bit and I *think* what Dr H is saying is, it doesnt really matter what the motivations are, that IF you follow the program, there will never be issues.

I dont think that is realistic. Not the following the program part, but the looking at the WHY you do things. The self examination. How do you develop new habits if you dont even know you HAVE the habit or WHY you have them?

Take myself, for example. I have a habit of fixing people. Of helping to the point of annoyance. I do this in order to be liked, because I think I am worth very little to people and in order to be liked, I must ingratiate myself with others. Because I understand this about myself ( and it is only very very recently that Ive come to this realization) there has been a DRAMATIC shift in me. Im still figuring it all out and how the new me will be.

If I hadnt had this big AHA, spent time in self exporation - I would have had this helper habit forever.

To my complete detriment.



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Originally Posted by JustKim
Ive thought about this a bit and I *think* what Dr H is saying is, it doesnt really matter what the motivations are, that IF you follow the program, there will never be issues.

I dont think that is realistic. Not the following the program part, but the looking at the WHY you do things. The self examination. How do you develop new habits if you dont even know you HAVE the habit or WHY you have them?

I don't know if there's a need to spend a lot of time navel gazing. I don't think it really matters why a person does something. I think the outcome is the important thing. That's why I don't think it matters why MJK looks at women - the point is that he has a habit of doing so and needs to break it. I'd suggest it to him even if he were single. For most women, staring men are immediately placed in the 'creep' category. That's why I suggested you help 'coach' him in appropriate navigation around women. The idea is to get him out of the habit he's picked up.

Being O&H with each other about this habit (ie how it affects you) is following the program.

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Originally Posted by JustKim
Ive thought about this a bit and I *think* what Dr H is saying is, it doesnt really matter what the motivations are, that IF you follow the program, there will never be issues
that is EXACTLY what he is saying........

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I dont think that is realistic. Not the following the program part, but the looking at the WHY you do things. The self examination. How do you develop new habits if you dont even know you HAVE the habit or WHY you have them?

Actually the "WHY" MJK looks/gawks/ ogles other women has been answered. He has a Physical Attractiveness as a high EN. Probably #1or #2. Throw in the way men are wired anyway and them being visually stimulated, well, it answers the "why" quite clearly.

NOW, in order to get this need met, yes, you have to do your part in meeting this need for him. From what you BOTH write, it seems you do DO this. Just keep it up....

And Mr. JK needs to do HIS part in over-coming this habit. He can't change what his EN's are, but he needs to create boundaries so that the only female meeting this need is YOU.

Hope this helps hon......I really feel for you. My heart went out to when you wrote about your weight issues and legs. I have horrible legs....throw in being only 5'3" and the fact that I will NEVER have long pretty model legs, well you know. However, there are other parts of me that I love, and so does my H. I suspect MJK is the same way......use what do have to YOUR advantage and accept the parts that you can't change. When a women loves herself and exudes that self-confidence, she becomes irresistible.......
kiss

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Bliss

I intellectually see how this makes sense and would work, but I have a hard time seeing how this is growth in any way.

Its like an alcoholic just quitting drinking. They change the habit, sure. But *something else* takes the place of the obsession because the problem that caused the alcoholism never is fixed.

Trust me, Im all for following the program and for results. I WANT a happy marriage, I just dont want a happy marriage on the surface.


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Actually the "WHY" MJK looks/gawks/ ogles other women has been answered. He has a Physical Attractiveness as a high EN. Probably #1or #2. Throw in the way men are wired anyway and them being visually stimulated, well, it answers the "why" quite clearly.

This scares me. A lot. Because when we have done the EN questionnaire, Phys Attractiveness doesn't come up as an EN at all for MJK. So, it makes for some confusion for me. I dont know if this doesnt come up because he *finds* me physically attractive already so it doesnt register as a need or something else. All I know is, every single day of my life - I feel like he finds me lacking.

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When a women loves herself and exudes that self-confidence, she becomes irresistible.......

Yeah. Working on that. I used to have that. I lost it a long time ago.

Thanks so much for the post!


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Update

MJK and I went to grab a quick dinner. MJK was distant and unkind to me. I asked him what was up, he said that he felt he had to focus on looking straight ahead and not at any women. I said "I don't buy it, you were like thus before we left home" He replied he was focusing on not being "vague".

I told him his behavior was hurting me and that I wasn't going to stay in it. That he was acting like someone who was mad that they "had" to behave a certain way. I got up and left the restaurant. He texted me to tell me that I was "'making things worse"

This does not sound to me like the behavior of a man who is repentant and wants to win back his wife. This is passive aggressive and mean.

Last edited by JustKim; 06/04/10 07:03 PM.

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I am taking a stab in the dark here but I get this sense (not sure why) that your husband is actually afraid. All this passive aggressive behavior strikes me as a cover up for something else. Passive aggressive strikes me as a fear of being hurt. I have seen this in a few guys I associated with and it was also blended with a level of control. As I got to know this fellow a little more I realized he was hiding behind this mask. He was afraid of being hurt. But he covered it well with this aggressive, controlling front.

Is it possible your H is insecure and the behavior you are experiencing is as a result of him being triggered by something? Has something changed lately that would cause him to act this way? I suspect his pride is bruised as well as he has been called on the accountability carpet. I also suspect he may be embarrassed about being wrong. And he may not know how to act. Mentally he may have retreated into his man cave and is licking his wounds hoping everything will magically return to more familiar territory. He is probably looking for some sympathy from you so he can save face.

"mommy kiss the boo boo better and tell me it will all be OK"

I may be wrong but it strikes me that there is more at play here than we are aware of on this forum.

Blessings
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JK - I don't know if this is at all applicable to your situation, but I'll offer my experience:

I was abysmal at self-reflection. Absolutely horrendous. It's something I had to - and still have to - work very hard on, and mentally tell myself to stop and think. Reflect. Analyze what I'm feeling and why. If I don't do this, it's far too easy to slip into old habits of just going along, responding superficially, etc.

It sounds like MJK has a lot going on under whatever exterior he is presenting. Is it possible he's not aware of what all is there? Would he be willing to sit down and maybe journal or reflect somehow, 10 minutes or more, each day?

The trick to this is it will require a lot from you. Control, support, a way to hear and discuss what he discovers without LBing. He needs to feel safe with you. (Ironic, I know.)

I could be way off base. Just wanted to throw it out there.



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BCB

I think you are right. He IS afraid. Of what? I don't know. He isn't really acting like he is afraid of losing his M.

Much of what you say is accurate , though. From my perspective anyway. I suspect MJK has gone through much of his life feeling invisible and powerless.

Can you be more specific when you say more is going on that what you see in this forum? I'm curious as to what you suspect

as far as anything changing I would say he know I'm on the verge of leaving. I'm not sure if that would affect him much though. Frankly he doesn't appear to care. He SAYS he cares but he doesn't act like it.


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Don't try to fix him or figure out if something is wrong with him.

You want to be married to him if the marriage is good for him and you.

And if it isn't and he tries to convince you that you are controlling him by asking him to not hurt you leave the abusive situation.

He can determine in any way how to act and behave that is good for him AND not hurt you. It is an AND decision that needs to be made not an EITHER/OR.

You are not controlling him. You are asking him to not hurt you. He can figure out how to do that with a little thought, creativity, and care.




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Can you be more specific when you say more is going on that what you see in this forum? I'm curious as to what you suspect
I am not an expert, I am not a psychologist, but my gut tells me that he needs you far more than you realize. I believe he is annoyed that with himself that he does need you to the degree he does because that means he is vulnerable, and vulnerability leaves you exposed to being hurt. I have a sense that he gets triggered by a series of events that leaves him feeling insecure, and I suspect when he feels insecure he will anesthetize himself by becoming more controlling, and distant (or give the appearance of not needing anyone or anything).

I sense he has this crusty exterior, and probably needs you to help him learn to trust and be in a safe enough place that he can be vulnerable.

From your last post I am wondering if he is nearing panic that you might leave. I really don't think he knows how to behave or act. Many of us men have grown up with the concept that men have to be "real men" John Wayne, James Bond, The Green Barets. Women will swoon in our presence because we are so tough and manly. Nothing can shake us, we are independent and don't let anything affect us. So what happens when we find out this is not really what a woman wants. How do you learn and where do you go to learn how to act. Depending on how you are raised you may not know what to do. Nobody is buying the image or the act any more. So there you are standing naked on the stage, people are laughing and pointing, and you don't know what to do.

If a man did not have a good role model to teach you how to treat a woman it can be very frightening. It can be alarming for a guy when you find out that the image you have spent so much of your life developing is not what is acceptable or desired. What do you do when you have climbed the ladder of success to find it leaning against the wrong building?

So what was the motivation for the affair? Was it an attempt to show himself and the world something? What void was he trying to fill? What would drive a person to participate in a behavior that puts your marriage relationship at risk?

Would it surprise you to find out you might be the stronger person in your marriage? Would you be surprised to learn that your husband may need more guidance and reassurance than you first believed? Is it possible that you assume your husband knows what to do? He may need more coaching than you realize. However you have expectations and you are feeling bruised from the events you have had to face in life. You are both wanting nurture, and the place we look for nurture is from our spouse. When it is not there we feel disappointed.

Perhaps a change of perspective may help you. It may be possible your husband is a cold-hearted insensitive jerk. I don't get that sense. I sense he is lost. And he is angry and scared that he is lost. Being a man he is supposed to know what to do to fix this, but I don't think he knows what to do to make it all better. I think he is afraid and the distance you experience from him is some kind of defense mechanism that is a reflex.

Do you both have the energy and the desire to persist over the next 2 to 5 years to build a new and better marriage? Only you can answer that.

I hope that helps, it is only my opinion based on the tread of information I got here and my gut reaction to some of the evidence.

May God Bless you and your family

BCBoy



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Don't try to fix him or figure out if something is wrong with him.


I agree 100%.

JK,

All this poking around in MJK's head trying to psychoanalyze him is a DJ.

Focus on your stuff. Draw your boundaries and enforce them....like you did tonight at dinner.

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His response makes me so angry for you. You've taken care of him for four years and he feels entitled to have a King Baby Tantrum and take shots at you?

If the assessment is correct that he is acting out of fear? What does that say about any potential recovery for you?

It's not good.

He needs a therapist right now, not us trying to figure out how to get him to grow up right now.

I would suggest something counter-intuitive to the rescuing people are trying to lay on you right now.

A Marriage-Builder Style Plan B would include a road map home. It would lead him through the land of therapy so that he takes responsibility for his insecurities so that he stops hurting you. But it leaves the choice up to him rather than for you to continue tolerating his intentional infliction of emotional harm.

He knows how to say "yes sir" to Steve H and staff, but then takes it out on you.

So you need to get out of the way and stop the abuse.

Plan B would need to include a time line and safety measures in the event that you ever attempt reconciliation again and he lapses back into passive-aggressive behavior, he gets to leave immediately and earn his way back in, if you care to endure insufferable behavior ever again.

At some point, he needs to get the message that your patience has an end. You've trained him for 4 years that you will accept mediocrity, hence the king-baby reaction now that you are growing a pair. He's trying to emotionally abuse you back into tolerance again.


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Originally Posted by KaylaAndy
A Marriage-Builder Style Plan B would include a road map home. It would lead him through the land of therapy so that he takes responsibility for his insecurities so that he stops hurting you. But it leaves the choice up to him rather than for you to continue tolerating his intentional infliction of emotional harm.
JK, when you first talked about filing for separation, this is what I saw too, more of a MB Plan B, with a plan given to the way home.
A way to protect your own LB.
Only you can decide if and when you need to do this.

This is kind of an odd analogy (it's early in the am, lol) but I think of it like this .....
you are standing on the edge of a cliff,
beside someone who is known to have seizures,
there is no warning when they will have one of these episodes,
it just happens,
and this person refuses to take their meds to control this condition,
when the help is right there in front of them for the taking.


It's up to him, he needs to decide that the effort to change his thinking is worth more than not fixing it.


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Is it possible he's not aware of what all is there

Id say this is a given. MFK would say that too. He simply isnt in touch with what he is feeling. Awhile back, I asked him to wrtite down the physical feelings he was having in a day whenever he felt some unidentifiable emotion. I think that lasted for maybe an hour? two? Not very long anyway. There didnt seem to be much effort put forth.

Im so incredibly weary. Ive spend years and years trying to get into his head, to help him, to explain. I think it doesnt matter. I havent been able to help him, Im not going to be able to help him and I need to focus on ME.

TJD, M Mallow

You both are right. What I wouldnt have given for BC's post a month ago. SO insightful. So accurate in many ways. Im past that now. It doesnt matter what MJK is thinking, or why, or what has motivated him. It only matters that I cant tolerate certain things. There are new rules, a higher bar. It is ABOUT ME. I dont think, in my entire life, I have EVER made anything about me. Certainly, since Ive been with MJK, its always been about him. What HE was thinking. What HE was feeling. How it would affect HIM.

Yeah. Im over that. Im just beat.

BC-

Your post was awesome and probably accurate. I cant speculate anymore what MJK thinks or feels. Thats all up to him.

KA, Vitt

Im there. Im ready. I dont know what else to do to preserve myself and my sanity.


My MB friends never fail to disappoint me! So many wonderful and insightful posts.

I thank you all.....



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I would suggest a consult with Steve H for yourself - how to establish your own personal Plan B - what that looks and feels like, and how to develop a Plan B letter that gives him the way back, if he chooses to take it.

I would also look to learn as much as possible about distinctions of personal responsibility. You are not the cause of his fears and insecurities, nor do you have the cure. Therefore, you shouldn't be compensating now four years later so that he doesn't feel afraid. That's a mother's job - because a mother also gets the blessing of authority and instruction to train and teach. This is not a job for a wife. Since Mr. JK is a grown man, he needs to find this instruction and support for himself. It is not reasonable that he should expect his wife to compensate - he has drained and depleted you.

So when are you going to call Steve?

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KA-

Im trying to figure all of this out as I go along. A call with Steve is great idea. Im a big fan of his. When MJK and I counseled regularly with him, I was in much better shape emotionally than I am in now.



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I would like to encourage you. Please do not make any hasty decisions. If you are beat, run down tired then you need to take a break and recuperate. A marriage especially one that is off the rails takes energy and time. So right now you don't have the energy and the appeal to escape is appealing. Remember this is a marriage building site, and I am pro marriage, so now you have my bias out in the open.

Marriage is not always easy, that is why we stand and make promises before God and our community. And the community makes a commitment to us to help sustain us through the challenging times. Right now your community is here online, there is a lot of experience and encouragement for you to draw from. You are doing the right thing by seeking counseling from the experts.

For many the anguish and emotion of separation and divorce can be far greater than rebuilding a marriage. From what I can tell from your posts, right now you need to recharge your batteries. There is a lot at stake here. You have a child together, and that is not insignificant. He is impacted by what is happening to the two of you as well. He will be watching and learning how adults resolve problems.

From what I can see your marriage is recoverable. Yes you will have some trials to face. However I sense your husband got the memo, that it is time to wake up and smell the coffee.

I consider myself a follower of Christ and one of the lessons I have learned in my time on the planet is that when I can no longer bear the burdens of this world, I have access to the One who can bear them. If you are so inclined I would encourage you to pray, for yourself, for strength and wisdom. For your husband and your child.

May God in His mercy bless you and sustain you.

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Thank you.

To clarify. My H has gotten the memo many many times. He has put forth various amounts of effort many many times.

This time will likely be like all the rest.....

We do not have children together. I have 2 children from a previous M. My children's Dad passed away when they were very young and MJK has not really stepped up into the whole "Dad" role very well.

My children ( and his grown child from a previous M ) often express the thought and frustration that MJK is just a "spectator" in all their lives. He is there on the sidelines and doesnt really participate much. Im the glue. The one that keeps it all going. MJK just shows up.

It hurts me to type this but Im not all that sure just how upset my son would be if MJK and I seperated. Recently, he was complaining that MJK doesnt interact with him much, doesnt even really appear to love him. That he felt MJK did the minimum he had to do...

Sound familiar?

I found myself cringing today. MJK knows how on the fence I am. I think he can sense that this time, its different.

He was talking to my son about how they should buy dirt bikes and go riding together. My son was all excited. Dirt bikes!!! Riding alongside a father figure! What fun..... My son said "thats GREAT! we can do that together and maybe bond. You know - do some father and son stuff..."

Later, my son commented that he knew MJK would never follow through.

How bloody sad is that.

Last edited by JustKim; 06/05/10 06:08 PM.

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