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I think MJK has a hard time with intimacy of any type. I don't think it's just conversation or following through. He just has a hard time with "bonding" period.

I wonder - were either of MJK's parents alcoholic or having addiction issues when he was growing up?

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Originally Posted by not2fun
[Actually the "WHY" MJK looks/gawks/ ogles other women has been answered. He has a Physical Attractiveness as a high EN. Probably #1or #2. Throw in the way men are wired anyway and them being visually stimulated, well, it answers the "why" quite clearly.

NOW, in order to get this need met, yes, you have to do your part in meeting this need for him. From what you BOTH write, it seems you do DO this. Just keep it up....

I disagree this is an emotional need. Dr Harley calls this a LOVEBUSTER, ie, independent behavior.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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no addiction issues but MASSIVELY dysfunctional. A father who was distant. Selfish. Big PA behaviors. He took off when MJK was 17 for OW. Didn't see MJK for years. They have virtually no relationship. I can't over state how cold

and nasty MJK s dad is.

MJK's mom was very expressive emotionally but huge temper. I think a bit of a drinker when her kids were little. Loved her sons madly but overwhelming

And you are right MJK isn't emotionally present with anyone . He us with me more than most but not really. I feel bad for him sometimes. He reminds me of the poor kid with his nose pressed to the glass of where he wishes he lived. But... I don't feel bad enough to drown


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no addiction issues but MASSIVELY dysfunctional. A father who was distant. Selfish. Big PA behaviors. He took off when MJK was 17 for OW. Didn't see MJK for years. They have virtually no relationship. I can't over state how cold

and nasty MJK s dad is.

MJK's mom was very expressive emotionally but huge temper. I think a bit of a drinker when her kids were little. Loved her sons madly but overwhelming

And you are right MJK isn't emotionally present with anyone . He us with me more than most but not really. I feel bad for him sometimes. He reminds me of the poor kid with his nose pressed to the glass of where he wishes he lived. But... I don't feel bad enough to drown

Interesting - so addiction behaviors - unpredictable and unsafe.

This is the root of MJK's distance and difficulty with conversation and follow through - with you and the kids.

It's not that he's deliberately trying to neglect you or bait you, or even be intentionally passive aggressive.

Most people who are balanced, are able to move from being the hero, to the clown, to withdrawn, to troublemaker at the extremities of stress. But adults who survived dysfunctional homes with addictive abusive patterns tend to get stuck in one of the four roles.

For me, I was the "lost child" - the one who never caused any trouble, who became invisible at the first sign of abuse or drunkenness, and my coping behaviors with my father's addiction was to compensate so that he wouldn't see me because if he saw me he'd be angry.

For my husband, whose parents were not addicts, but his father was a child of addicts and his mother had some attachment issues caused by survivor guilt (she was the only child who lived past either birth or childhood - one sibling lasted long enough to have a few children, but died to suicide. Kasey was the scapegoat and has a hard time having enough confidence to do anything right to be reliable, especially during crunch time.

My oldest brother was the superhero - the ones my parents treated as a partner to carry the family and could do no wrong.

My little sister was the entertainer - the dancer who always pulled certain antics.

We all compensated for what was lacking in our family - emotional safety.

If this hits a nerve for you or your husband, some recommended reading would include a study on what it means to survive such a childhood, and how to become balanced.

Janet Woititz, a leading psychologist/author who has studied and treated adult children, describes 13 characteristics of ACOA:

Quote
1. Adult children of alcoholics guess at what normal behavior is.

2. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty following a project through from beginning to end.

3. Adult children of alcoholics lie when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.

4. Adult children of alcoholics judge themselves without mercy.

5. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty having fun.

6. Adult children of alcoholics take themselves very seriously.

7. Adult children of alcoholics have difficulty with intimate relationships.

8. Adult children of alcoholics overreact to changes over which they have no control.

9. Adult children of alcoholics constantly seek approval and affirmation.

10. Adult children of alcoholics usually feel that they are different from other people.

11. Adult children of alcoholics are super responsible or super irresponsible.

12. Adult children of alcoholics are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved.

13. Adult children of alcoholics are impulsive. They tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsively leads to confusion, self-loathing and loss of control over their environment. In addition, they spend an excessive amount of energy cleaning up the mess.

JK - you may find yourself in this too as you've been way unbalanced in tolerating bad behavior.

The best book I read that focused on self-protection and recognizing where I'm a safe person for my child and my husband, and how to feel safe around others is called "SAFE PEOPLE" by Cloud and Townsend - the same guys who wrote "Boundaries", which I have recommended here before.

There are underlying currents in your husband that he has to focus on before he can approach your marriage from a healthy place. This is the "therapy" I recommended in a previous post.

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Hi JK,

And to start with I disagree heavily with not2fun. You cannot push buttons on the EN list to try to figure out the total person and the relationship. Please ignore that and listen to excellent advice from TCD and BCboy and others here. Okay.

The only reasons I wanted to post to you are 1) I apologize for being presumptuous in trying to declare that your H being pa has some mental or emotional problem, and 2) to simply reassure you of my concern.

Look JK, I was sort of a crude bull in the china shop guy during our first ten years of marriage. My W had the stomach to pont these and I am happy to say that I had the stomach to change myself, my behavior.

Ya know what Kim, my W is alot older now. We are now in our 60s. she still has great legs tho. She has sort of a stomach now and I definitely know that because when I take her shopping for clothes I have to stand outside of the fitting room and comment on how the clothes she is trying on fit her. She always asks me do my boobs show and does my stomach show. I am honest with her and I love to go shopping with her even tho it takes like 3 hours/.

Anyway Kim your husband can learn this if he is willing. Ya know, standing outside a womens fitting room in a dept. store you can see lots of women shopping. Do I look, honestly yes. Do I stare honestly No because then I get busy to see if there are anymore tops that would look good on my wife and honest to god. She is never able to decide if she needs small or medium so I am always bringing her clothes.

Point is honestly, you are getting a raw deal period. Going to a restaurant and acting like you said he did, honestly Kim as a male I would feel ashamed that I acted that way. No one has a right to deplete another's energy and love as much as he seems to have.

You cannot change him obviously, you can Help him change tho and guide him thru the necessary changes If he is willing.

Char is manic depressive and we have lived thru this together for now 37 ofr our 43 years together. Did I need to change, yes. I learned about the illness by reading about it and inquiring, and i tried to educated members of our families about it, but she was also willing to learn to in how her illness affected not only her but us. And she did that.

Oh wow JK, I am and advocate of staying in the foxhole untill the last charge, but I would have to agree with others here and advise you to go to a secure Plan B to preserve you as a person and as a mom. This will be hard on him, but again Kim you cannot change the man you love, he has to change because he loves you.

Wow., need to say the rosary tonight (am being honest but probably a little too emotional her) , but I am now going to include your interests.

Tom

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JK,

I realize that I forgot to post rest of my thought when I was commenting on the physical. Meant to say yes she has still great legs, but she has a hard time walking now, she has gained weight and that is one problem with her ankles now in terms of walking. She has her same great eyes tho same as she always has had and when I look at her I have this feeling she is still accepting me and I have thsi feeling that if she didn't accept me maybe no one else would.

Tom

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I just ordered the book you recommend - as well as the Boundaries book. I look forward to reading them.

Ive long felt that the maritial recovery has hit an impass and cant go any further. The rest of the stuff has to do w MJK and of course, my own work on me.

Im not optimistic..


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Tom

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts.

I have to tell you, I am up and down. What I mean to say is, Sometimes Im sure that MJK does things deliberately and other itmes Im not. He seems to be pretty convincing that he behavior is innocent. Then again, he *always* sees himself as the innocent and reasonable one.

In fact, he did this over the ogling the woman incident. He was just shopping, you see....and then along came this woman who happened to pop into his line of vision...

Thats how he originally couched it and it makes me feel crazy. He is so reasonable. Surely, I must have misunderstood.

Im on to it now though. I see what he does and I have to tell you , I am getting more discouraged by the day.

Im going to call Steve H about coming up with plan B.

Which makes me so so sad.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
He seems to be pretty convincing that he behavior is innocent.

I know you know that this doesn't even matter. What should matter to him is that it hurts you. The whole dynamic may change if one, you don't let him convince you or cause you to question yourself on this stuff and two, he changed his focus to addressing that he hurt you instead of his defensiveness in protecting himself by saying it is innocent. It is a shift for both of you.

Originally Posted by JustKim
Im on to it now though. I see what he does and I have to tell you , I am getting more discouraged by the day.

Im going to call Steve H about coming up with plan B.

Which makes me so so sad.

I wish you could see the opportunity here instead of being discouraged. If you are truly on to it now then you can change. When you change he will need to react to your change - you won't continue to let him hurt you. You won't let the same stuff keep happening and you will alert him to it and he won't get rewarded for doing the same stuff. He will try to argue and fight with you but you can't accept him hurting you.

How often do you or have you communicated with Kimberly or the Harley's?


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I think that might have happened this morning and last night. I think MJK is realizing that it doesnt matter if he thinks he is right, I am right - the cat is right.

That is the behavior is hurtful- it must be changed. I was pretty shocked that he seemed to have gotten that.

Im interested to see how the week goes...


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KA-

At the risk of a DJ, Id like to address this...

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Adult children of alcoholics guess at what normal behavior is.

I once asked Dr H if he thought my H was a sociopath, because he seemed to always go out of his way to give the answer he thought I wanted to hear. Like, he had no idea how to act, so he was going to "fake" his way through it. Many times, MJK doesnt seem genuine to me. Its like he watches how other people act and then does that.

Dr H assured me my H is NOT a sociopath ( and I feel horrible thinking that or even typing it here...) but that he had a very low emotional threshold. He asked about the FOO thing, too. If there was addiction/alcoholism.

I think you are on to something big.

I am so thankful for your guidance.

JK


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Just an Update-

Relatively un eventful weekend. MJK tried hard to meet EN, avoid LB's.

I dont really know how I feel. Im confused. I can see the shift in MJK but I dont trust it. I dont believe that it will last. There is a big part of me that thinks he is doing this NOW but as soon as the coast is clear, he will go back to old habits.

Im also deeply disturbed about the polygraph thing. MJK searched out and found a person who does this, emailed him back and forth a few times ( I was copied in on the correspondence). The last email to this guy was this past Thursday. I feel uneasy. If it were me, and I had nothing to hide, I would be all over it. I would have made a date already because Id want to prove my innocence. It very much feels to me that MJK made a big show of this and is now waffling.

This is a pretty standard pattern. Lots of promises no action.

I have an awful feeling in my gut that there is a great deal to hide and MJK will keep stalling on this until he has no choice.

Ive told him that he gets once chance to come clean. That if he does it before ( and not at the 11th hour) that I would hear him out. If he doesnt - and then takes poly and fails, I will immediately file.

I dont feel good about this at ALL


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JK -

This is where you need to keep that bar high. Ideally, yes, MJK would be all over this and take ownership and have it done yesterday. However, (and I have no idea why, could be because there's more there, could be because of old habits, him using what slack is available, etc.), it is up to you to set that bar and make sure he clears it.

If he is not clearing it, communicate that to him in no uncertain terms and see if that doesn't light a fire under his fanny.

Given what he has mentioned on his thread, the original story about the ogling incident, and Dr. H's "low emotional threshold" comment, I am inclined to identify some of my own problem areas in him. Is he a people pleaser? Does he communicate w/o much substance - no clear understanding of his emotions, motivations? I think you confirmed this idea a bit before, so it looks like you know what you're up against if this is the case.


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Mrs Vanilla

I can only tell you my perceptions - his opinions might be ( and probably are ) vastly different from mine.

I would agree that he is a people pleaser. He has a big need for approval and he doesnt seem to handle things well if I am angry at him or disapprove of him in any way. However, at the same time - he seems not to care about how his actions affect people. In fact - the often says he *doesdnt care* So, that is a mystery to me.

He admittedly does not communicate with much substance - he is very vague. His natural style of communication is to offer as little information as possible and I feel like I constantly have to drag information out of him.

Additionally, he would also admit that he generally has no idea of how he is feeling. If there is any kind of conflict, he becomes completely emotionless and very logical. He has told me the emotions dont "hit" for him until hours or days later.

I HAVE communicated to him in no uncertain terms. I am not his Mom and I dont want to check up on him or manage everything for him. Ive done that already at great personal expense. He knows where the bar is and what he has to do.



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Originally Posted by JustKim
BCb

Thank you.

To clarify. My H has gotten the memo many many times. He has put forth various amounts of effort many many times.

This time will likely be like all the rest.....

We do not have children together. I have 2 children from a previous M. My children's Dad passed away when they were very young and MJK has not really stepped up into the whole "Dad" role very well.

My children ( and his grown child from a previous M ) often express the thought and frustration that MJK is just a "spectator" in all their lives. He is there on the sidelines and doesnt really participate much. Im the glue. The one that keeps it all going. MJK just shows up.

It hurts me to type this but Im not all that sure just how upset my son would be if MJK and I seperated. Recently, he was complaining that MJK doesnt interact with him much, doesnt even really appear to love him. That he felt MJK did the minimum he had to do...

Sound familiar?

I found myself cringing today. MJK knows how on the fence I am. I think he can sense that this time, its different.

He was talking to my son about how they should buy dirt bikes and go riding together. My son was all excited. Dirt bikes!!! Riding alongside a father figure! What fun..... My son said "thats GREAT! we can do that together and maybe bond. You know - do some father and son stuff..."

Later, my son commented that he knew MJK would never follow through.

How bloody sad is that.

This may be blatantly obvious, and you probably already know it, but I just wanted to point out that you have a STRONG emotional need for Family Commitment, so be sure that that is included in your list of your top 5 emotional needs.

SINCE I believe you should decide that following the Marriage Builders program is a condition of you even staying with MisterJK at all, it sounds to me like finding a way to meet your emotional need for Family Commitment is going to have to be a part of that recovery plan. He's not doing that, now ... I'll wager he's got a weak attempt going at meeting maybe your top 2 or 3 emotional needs. You need a strong attempt going at meeting the top 5. Otherwise, this is not worth recovering.


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Latest response from Dr H

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It's possible that your husband agrees to almost anything and then does what he pleases, but it's more likely that he intends to change, but doesn't think it's necessary to do anything to change his habits.

This is significant. Last night, MJK said he could see that he has a pattern of putting in the absolute minimum of effort it takes with virtually everything. He said he could see how he had done that with us as well. That he realized he has put in minimum effort.

So, it would follow that he wouldnt think he had to change anything - change is HARD. It requires ALOT of effort.

Im not sure where this leaves us....


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His natural style of communication is to offer as little information as possible and I feel like I constantly have to drag information out of him.


This is pretty typical for men in general, no?

Quote
He has told me the emotions dont "hit" for him until hours or days later.

This is also not uncommon for many men.

You mentioned earlier that Dr. Harley said your H has a very low emotional threshold. I'd never heard that term before. So I looked it up. From what I read, it means people feel negative emotions quicker than other people.

But, from what you've said and he has said, it doesn't seem to describe MJK.




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You need a strong attempt going at meeting the top 5. Otherwise, this is not worth recovering.

This ties in perfectly with my previous post. Ive always accepted whatever effort he put forth and was good with it. I think this has a lot to do with my own stuff. My FOO was not exactly wonderful. Some really dirty scary stuff there. I was taught at a young age that I was not important nor worth very much.

I then went on to a horribly abusive marriage w former H. Just awful.

The truth is, I have never really known what it is like for someone to be really good to me. "Good enough" which is what Ive gotten from MJK all these years seemed alot better than what I had always had.

Not anymore. Im flipping great. Im smart, successful, attractive, funny, loyal, kind and a regular flosser!

I deserve alot more than "good enough"


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You mentioned earlier that Dr. Harley said your H has a low threshhold for emotions. I'd never heard that term before. So I looked it up. From what I read, it means people feel negative emotions quicker than other people.

But, from what you've said and he has said, it doesn't seem to describe MJK.

It does and it doesnt. I think anger is an emotional that MJK CAN tap into pretty quickly. In fact- he seems to spend alot of time surpressing anger. I know he has talked about how he has worked really hard to learn to surpress his anger because he found it be be scary and almost out of control.

Again- I cant speak for him - but I think MJK is very controlled. What I sometimes see is someone putting out a false perception on how he feels or what he thinks because he feels the truth of what he feels is scary or seems wrong to him.

I find myself typing all of these things and wondering why everything always comes back to MJK. I have spent so much of my life trying to figure him out and change ME .

I think Im tired of doing this....


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In fact- he seems to spend alot of time surpressing anger.


And denying it.

Anger is usually one of the few emotions men will express.

Quote
I know he has talked about how he has worked really hard to learn to surpress his anger because he found it be be scary and almost out of control.


I've heard Justlearning here (great poster..a retired Marine and retired engineer) say that most men have alot of anger...fierceness inside of them that most women would be shocked at. But, that it is NORMAL. My H and other men I've known have said similar things. The trick is learning how to channel the anger, not deny/supress it.

But, our culture and sometimes mothers work to supress that fierceness in young boys.

His denying/supressing his anger would explain why you thought he was PA. First he denies he's angry, and then his anger "leaks" out of him. You call him on his anger and he denies he is feeling it, which then causes him to deny his leaks/bad behavior.


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