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His denying/supressing his anger would explain why you thought he was PA. First he denies he's angry, and then his anger "leaks" out of him. You call him on his anger and he denies he is feeling it, which then causes him to deny his leaks/bad behavior.

But fundamentally - isnt that exactly the definition of a passive approach to a secret aggressive feeling??



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Originally Posted by JustKim
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His denying/supressing his anger would explain why you thought he was PA. First he denies he's angry, and then his anger "leaks" out of him. You call him on his anger and he denies he is feeling it, which then causes him to deny his leaks/bad behavior.

But fundamentally - isnt that exactly the definition of a passive approach to a secret aggressive feeling??

Yes, I guess so. I just hate to label anyone w/ a condition. I think it tends to put them into a I can't change belief/mode...and us into the he'll never change belief/mode.

I think the way you handled dinner the other night was exactly right. You can't change him, but you can change what you are willing to put up w/.

Hold firm on that lie detector test. And definitely talk to Dr. Harley about plan Bing him.


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Marsh-

I dont want to label anyone either and in fact, MJK has expressed some resentment over being labeled as such. I dont blame him.

I dont see it as a label or even a condition, though. I see it as a behavior or a habit.

For instance - overeating. It is a habit. It has an emotional component to it of course but I would surely be resentful if someone called ME a lazy pig. So, Im trying to avoid the PA label and talk about behaviors.

Maybe that will help


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I always thought PA people KNEW they were angry and purposely chose to act out in sneaky aggressive ways.


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I see it as a behavior or a habit.


That's how I see it too.

For MJK, it starts w/ the belief that there is something wrong w/ feeling anger.

If he can change that belief, he's on the road to changing his behavior.

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Marsh

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I always thought PA people KNEW they were angry and purposely chose to act out in sneaky aggressive ways.

I thought that too. In fact, I still think that. That is one of the reasons why I think that MJK exhibits some PA type HABITS but I am reluctant to label him or anyone.

Do I think MJK does these things or purpose? I think he has in the past and he knows it. Do I think he does that now? I dont think so but honestly, Ive been wrong about him in the past so I dont really trust myself and my judgement.


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And one more thing. I think MJK has a habit of not being honest because he is scared. I think he has a feeling alot of
Quote
being in trouble

I dont think MJK does this out of malicious intent


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Originally Posted by JustKim
I think Im tired of doing this....
No doubt, you've probably been trying to figure him out for years.
That is his job, identify the problem and work towards fixing it.
Seems like he is working on the identifying part, the first part of this.
It's his task to do what you require, if he chooses.
Remember, we can't fix them, we can however influence their desire to fix, and we can give them a plan how this can be achieved.

What you can do, is let him know what it is that lovebusts you, and what actions meet your EN's.
Your other job, how I see it, is to decide how to stay in a healthy state of mind and protect your LB, while your H is working through this process.

Perhaps with the support of this board, you can remain in a more healthy state. Healthy seems like the wrong word, since there is nothing
healthy about this, but I hope you know what I mean. wink

Had you not been feeling like this for 4 yrs., I don't think that your LB would be so depleted.
It may not have been so much that your EN's have not been filled as they should, it's been the LB's that have taken more of a toll. (actions that have made
you question his sincerity about R)

Living on the edge like you have, has not allowed for a huge amount of healing and has only contributed to the PSTD that we already have from
the initial blow of d-day.

Like many WS's, he doesn't get the true impact of his actions, IMO.
I hope he stays posting, and is willing to learn. smile


M'd 22 years
BW-me
D-Day 08/08 LTA


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Living on the edge like you have, has not allowed for a huge amount of healing and has only contributed to the PSTD that we already have from
the initial blow of d-day.

Man, is that true. Only a BS can understand what a d-day is like. I truly believe that a WS might *think* they know but they cant truly understand the devastation caused and how hard it is to stay the course.

One thing I struggle with - I feel MJK should be flooding the heck out of me right now, in regard to meeting EN's. Its not happening. I mean, it *is* happening in that he is doing some things but I dont feel flooded.

Thanks for all your help, Vitt.


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Originally Posted by JustKim
[quote]

One thing I struggle with - I feel MJK should be flooding the heck out of me right now, in regard to meeting EN's. Its not happening. I mean, it *is* happening in that he is doing some things but I dont feel flooded.

Thanks for all your help, Vitt.

A stab in the dark here. But you said MJK may feel he is "in trouble" a lot. If he is feeling insecure and I sense he is he will withhold as he is scared to risk.

Secondly he may not know what to do to be pleasing or acceptable in your eyes right now. I think his eyes are being opened, he has many years of habits to overcome. He may be willing to paddle hard but he many not know in what direction.

It may be helpful to him to throw him some clues, like "You know what I need right now is ______"
" What would score big points with me right now is _______"

It may be hard to believe for you as you sound very aware, but many of us guys really do need your help. In many cases we may marry someone to fill in a gap we have in our own lives. My Grandmother had this one figured out, she knew where my Grandfather was lacking and she acknowledged it and with much grace and kindness filled in the gaps. Why? Because he filled in the gaps in areas she was not 100% in. On the outside it did not always look smooth, but they made it work. She knew he would always be there and despite his deficiencies he would try the best he knew how.

Sometimes I wonder if we need to view things from a different lens. To tell the spouse what we do want instead of what we don't want. As a man who has developed habits and a rhythm to life, it is not always easy to change. With grace, mercy, and encouragement we often can and will.

I recognize you have set the bar higher than you have previously. And I hear you are tired, and this will affect your tolerance. You also have reason to be suspicious due to the A. You are also questioning if he is being truthful. You have many doubts right now about you continuing to risk your emotions in this relationship.

Perhaps before you go any further you need a plan. Write the plan down. It sounds like you have some foundational issues, like trust to address. Get those issues dealt with. The polygraph sounds like a major hurdle. Make that priority one and let MJK know it is a hurdle that needs to be addressed by a certain date. Share the issues you need addressed and when you need them addressed by. You are negotiating a new relational contract. Know what the non negotiables are (fidelity etc.) and where there is room for flexibility. Lay your foundation. A wise man builds his house upon the Rock. A foolish man builds upon the sand.

Blessings
BCBoy


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BC

Thank you for your posts. You are a wise old soul ( And Im not calling you old. Really Im not.... promise!)

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A foolish man builds upon the sand.

Funny you should say this. I already feel like I REbuilt my house w MJK on sand. I even said as much this weekend.

The thing is, I was pretty explicit post d day that I could only go through this horrific pain IF the result was an incredible marriage. So, I thought - once again - that we were building on bed rock. I thought once again, that MJK was his own keeper and would keep me safe. After the events of the past few weeks, I see that is not really true. I dont know, BC. Maybe MJK and I have a different view on truth. He feels that he is being honest if he isnt lying. But, thats not being honest to me. That is withholding information and is it a lie? You betcha.

As far as a plan? Isnt that the MB emotional needs questionaire. Funny thing, that. We both did this a few months back. I have his right her eon my desk. I look at it from time to time. I am willing to bet that MJK doesnt even know where mine IS.

So, if you give someone a plan, and they ignore the plan - what does THAT say??


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So, if you give someone a plan, and they ignore the plan - what does THAT say??

If he is lying intentionally that is different than if he is withholding because he is afraid of the reaction.

IF you give someone a map and they don't know where they are on the map, or if you don't know how to read the map, or understand a compass you need someone to help you get oriented. Your H may be lost. He has some work to do on himself so he has the tools to participate in a marriage. He may be overwhelmed trying to make it all work.

You are ticked off and wanting results now. You have been patient and time is running out in your mind. Do you think you can get your husband to commit to changing and proving to you he is serious. If you were to describe to him what success would look like can you do that to help him get a direction?

You need to be convinced he is telling the truth and he is wanting to tell the truth. You need this to develop a foundation of trust. Without trust you are sunk. So part of the plan is
1) Radical honesty - and that includes coaching and a safe environment to be honest.
2) Implementing the POLICY of Joint Agreement - That is the antidote for passive aggressiveness as both parties have to enthusiastically agree.
Part of your plan may be any deviation from the plan is a show stopper for you. Your H may be the type that needs this clearly laid out and in writing. It may even be like a contract between the two of you. After all a contract is an agreement with very clear terms and conditions along with the consequences of not following the contract.

Changing is difficult because we develop habitual ruts. It takes a lot of effort to get out of those ruts. Can you help your husband see what you need in your communication for him to provide you with the truth so you are convinced it is the truth? I believe he has been vague as a defense, possibly trying to avoid accountability and being blamed, or covering up that he may not have thought it through. Being evasive has provided a payoff for him in the past. You are now saying "no more".

Now he may not know what to do, as he wants to maintain face, or respect. Right now he likely feels he is under attack. What he has done to cope, avoid etc.... is being dismantled.

If you are now feeling contempt for your husband this will be a key issue that needs to be addressed. This may be the wall he cannot scale, because no matter what he does he will fail if you are feeling contempt.

It is not all going to get better in the short term as it takes time to overcome 50 years of bad habits. How about breaking it down into small chunks and develop a road map so you can both see some progress. If I recall correctly it takes 2 to 5 years to recover a marriage and that is if you are following and both parties have bought into the MB plan.

Are both of you willing to put in the time and effort?

Blessings
BCBoy



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Originally Posted by JustKim
The thing is, I was pretty explicit post d day that I could only go through this horrific pain IF the result was an incredible marriage. So, I thought - once again - that we were building on bed rock. I thought once again, that MJK was his own keeper and would keep me safe. After the events of the past few weeks, I see that is not really true. I dont know, BC. Maybe MJK and I have a different view on truth. He feels that he is being honest if he isnt lying. But, thats not being honest to me. That is withholding information and is it a lie? You betcha.

As far as a plan? Isnt that the MB emotional needs questionaire. Funny thing, that. We both did this a few months back. I have his right her eon my desk. I look at it from time to time. I am willing to bet that MJK doesnt even know where mine IS.

So, if you give someone a plan, and they ignore the plan - what does THAT say??

How about you move out of the construction zone of bedrock vs. sand and move into the kitchen for a sec? smile You're peeling an onion right now. You've got a few layers of waste to scrape into the disposal. Then you're left with what you can actually work with.


D-Day 2-10-2009
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BC/ Bliss

OK. If I heard you correctly, you seem to both be saying to be patient. To give him time to undo habits and behaviors that he has had for all of his life.

Did I get that right?

There is a part of me that wants to say "OK. Thats reasonable. After all, I am a very reasonable person".

HOWEVER.

Dont you just hate howevers?

However...... I feel like he HAD a chance to do this already. It was called the last 4 years of recovery. Thats what I thought we were doing. I didnt know that what it was really called is "MJK has an affair, and then coasts and does as little as possible to recover his M to JK for four years all the while telling JK that all is well". And NOW he is going to step up?? Surely you can see the "yeah, right" in there?

You know, in some ways I suppose it is a good thing that Im discovering that maybe MJK hasnt stepped up. Because if he HAD and this had the best we had, We'd be sunk for sure. At least I know he was only sort of trying.

So, I will swallow my feelings of chronic disappointment ( BC- its not contempt. At all. Really. If anything, I tend to get overwhelmed with feelings of protectiveness and sadness for the broken little boy inside MJK ) and continue to stick it out.

I like onions....


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So, MJK is upset.

When he got home, I was cold - distant. I was/am upset that he hadnt called about the poly. That he had let is slide since Thursday last.

I asked him about it, and he got upset. He said that he feels that he is learning to run, that just as he gets some momentum, I hit him over the head with a bat. Or maybe a frying pan. I forget. Something that would leave a dent, anyway.

So, Im like "wth?" He is upset because I am asking him to be accountable????

Here is how I feel. I feel like reading posts, links and MB sites is something I have done virtually EVERY DAY for FOUR YEARS. Actually more than 4 years. And yet Ive managed to keep a house going, pull in well over 6 figures in my job, be a Mom, read self help books AND meet his emotional needs.

I. AM. SO. OUT. OF. PATIENCE.

So, he did go and immediately schedule the poly. For this Friday. He says he is "fine". He is not upset or mad. Guess what? He is distant and not at all affectionate to me.

I seriously cant take this anymore.



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Originally Posted by BCboy
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So, if you give someone a plan, and they ignore the plan - what does THAT say??

If he is lying intentionally that is different than if he is withholding because he is afraid of the reaction.

IF you give someone a map and they don't know where they are on the map, or if you don't know how to read the map, or understand a compass you need someone to help you get oriented. Your H may be lost. He has some work to do on himself so he has the tools to participate in a marriage. He may be overwhelmed trying to make it all work.

You are ticked off and wanting results now. You have been patient and time is running out in your mind. Do you think you can get your husband to commit to changing and proving to you he is serious. If you were to describe to him what success would look like can you do that to help him get a direction?

You need to be convinced he is telling the truth and he is wanting to tell the truth. You need this to develop a foundation of trust. Without trust you are sunk. So part of the plan is
1) Radical honesty - and that includes coaching and a safe environment to be honest.
2) Implementing the POLICY of Joint Agreement - That is the antidote for passive aggressiveness as both parties have to enthusiastically agree.
Part of your plan may be any deviation from the plan is a show stopper for you. Your H may be the type that needs this clearly laid out and in writing. It may even be like a contract between the two of you. After all a contract is an agreement with very clear terms and conditions along with the consequences of not following the contract.

Changing is difficult because we develop habitual ruts. It takes a lot of effort to get out of those ruts. Can you help your husband see what you need in your communication for him to provide you with the truth so you are convinced it is the truth? I believe he has been vague as a defense, possibly trying to avoid accountability and being blamed, or covering up that he may not have thought it through. Being evasive has provided a payoff for him in the past. You are now saying "no more".

Now he may not know what to do, as he wants to maintain face, or respect. Right now he likely feels he is under attack. What he has done to cope, avoid etc.... is being dismantled.

If you are now feeling contempt for your husband this will be a key issue that needs to be addressed. This may be the wall he cannot scale, because no matter what he does he will fail if you are feeling contempt.

It is not all going to get better in the short term as it takes time to overcome 50 years of bad habits. How about breaking it down into small chunks and develop a road map so you can both see some progress. If I recall correctly it takes 2 to 5 years to recover a marriage and that is if you are following and both parties have bought into the MB plan.

Are both of you willing to put in the time and effort?

Blessings
BCBoy

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JK - I can see your frustration, and I don't think MJK realizes just how good he has it that you're still around and even thinking about continuing/starting real recovery.

He does need to get w/ the program quickly, I think, but I don't have any suggestions as to how to get HIM to be the one to flip that switch, change his system/habits, commit to being better, whatever it takes. He's GOT to be humble, be vulnerable, and really be stripped bare.

I don't have any advice w/ this other than to say I'm sorry you're having to experience this.


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JK,

On the polygraph, he doesn't need to take the polygraph and you don't need to trust him either. There are a bunch of ways to show and build trust. I wouldn't let him use this as an example of you controlling him. I would just tell him I was disappointed you didn't schedule a polygraph as I don't feel safe with you and you not scheduling it is just another data point demonstrating this as I don't feel safe and I don't think either of us think not feeling safe in a marriage is considered ok or good.

On a different subject, I understand it is easy to dwell on all MJK's faults, weaknesses, dysfunction especially since he had the A but I don't get it as I don't think it is a wise way to recover your marriage.

Say he is PA. Say that he has been formally diagnosed and it is true. He goes and gets fixed and now everything is going to be great?

Or if he is PA what does that say about you having dealt with it all these years and you keep dealing with it the way you have. Poor you right. You are a victim of a PA person and I can't have a marriage with a PA as it is impossible. Why even try if it is impossible?

Just like those folks that are married to alcoholics. [censored] and [censored] about the alcoholic when they enable enable and enable some more.

I don't get(not that I have to) your constant focus on him and what is broken in him.

I think you are much better off being respectful of him and his experience in life and being clear when things hurt you and separating yourself from him when he tries to spin you or convince you that you are controlling him when you tell him something hurts you.

Being withdrawn and distant like you were tonight can be considered PA. Why not put the issue on the table?


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How often do you communicate with the marriage builders folks or other counselors?


ME BH 40 - FWW 39

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Married 10 years

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A poly is absolutely necessary when the BS deems it so. It can also prompt a flood of truth in some cases.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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