Fill out your ENQ. Talk to him about it then give it to him. Make sure its at a place he can look at it without someone seeing him. In private maybe he WILL look at it.

If that doesnt work maybe make a fun coupon book out of it. Or give him the list when he asks about what christmas/birthday presents you would want. Maybe schedule a brainstorming session with him to discuss ways you can present these ideas in a way that he can handle.

Just dont give up. Always keep in mind the devil is out there never far away. He knows when your vulnerable. During recovery (especially hard ones) you are very vulnerable to another A. Set boundaries for yourself so you dont get tempted.

GOLLY GEE. this was strictly on point.

i actually came across this original article not too long ago, as in this very evening, but sort of skimmed over it and didn't apply it to myself--i always felt like i was demonstrating unconditional love by not ever expressing discontent. but in retrospect, it was kind of crappy and patronizing of me to treat my husband like he was too fragile to deal with a few simple, gentle requests.

this weekend, he and i are going to talk, for real. i'm totally chicken. public speaking used to be my job, and it's all coming back to me now--dry mouth, the works. i'm going to prepare talking points and commit them to memory so they don't sound stilted when we talk. i may post a tentative outline so i can get this crew's input on how to phrase things.

THANK YOU!

i just read your thread pretty much from the beginning--it sounds like you're really committed to making your marriage work and that you've been very patient and self-sacrificing and forgiving with your wife. i'm so glad to hear that you're at home where you belong and i'm confident that she will recognize your commitment and realize how much her family means to her. i'm praying for you. or wishing fervently, as you prefer. =)

I have set boundaries for myself--it hasn't been terribly difficult, to tell you the truth. i don't particularly like PEOPLE right now--i don't know if other wandering wives would recognize this phenomenon, but once one realizes the import of one's behavior, it's not so much of a fog, it's like whatever internal device one has that filters the I Like You from the I Dislike You goes on the fritz...speaking for myself here, but i've craved solitude ever since i ended it.

i don't trust myself to make good friendships any time soon--keep in mind that the OM was in fact a legitimate friend before i corrupted him. i know my feelings are transient and fundamentally selfish right now, so i make sure my husband is aware of everyone new i meet in my business dealings, let him know if i need to take or make a call from a male associate, and of course he has all my email passwords and can track me on GPS to see where i am if he feels the need to do so.

talking to my husband this weekend! without giving him the ol' WE NEED TO TALK, i'm going to set aside some time and make it happen--i'll be posting my talking points and would welcome input on phrasing, etc.

At one point in time I might have said the same thing...but after years in recovery and working the MB program really well, I have no problem with it. In fact, neither of us do and it's actually quite fun.

IMHO this is something you should work towards...if it's that uncomfortable for you it shouldn't be and it can only help your M to change this.

Thanks for the questions...She has been griping about it for years...Before we were very pressed for money and there was NOTHING extra. Sometimes I would take it upon myself to buy a beer or whatever and it would really upset her.
Now I am fairly well to do, but unbelievably occasionally live paycheck to paycheck, so it was important to implement some type of budget and is probably good for any family.

To answer your question, I used to respond to her for a few weeks with the "how dare you" business, but that was because she was still not respecting my boundaries...I got over that in about 3 weeks after she really started to make some big strides and it showed. I wouldn't be too worried about that type of response unless there are things that he is asking for that you are still not respecting. Things that pertain to the affair and such.

The way that she communicated her need was absolutely brutal. She sent numerous emails to my work flipping out that the money was all gone again, calling me names and such. I got a little upset, but after reading YEG's topic, I saw it for what it was, a tantrum. I really do NOT respond well to that type of communication and who would, but after I got over my feelings, which is advice I've gotten on this site, I decided to look for a solution. That was me being a leader and taking action.

It impressed the hell out of her, and with all the talk about people standing up for themselves and not taking any more BS, and how that shows one person or the other that they are stronger and that esp. women respect their man more after it...I feel like sometimes the converse of that is you might also have to bite the big one and really admit that you have been making a mistake for a LONG time...like me!

On another note, I'm in sales and sometimes my imagination is my worst enemy. I have thoughts like, "what if they say no, or what if they decide not to go ahead with the deal now," and on...Most of the time, it isn't as bad as I painted it in my head at all and I did all that worrying for nothing.

I pray a lot before we talk. I ask for wisdom in the situation and wisdom in how to communicate with my WW...

One person told me here that there are sometimes a lot of hurt feelings, but really you should focus on the goal, and communicate that in terms of, "how are we going to handle this What can we do to make sure that this situation does not present itself again?"

When I set up the budget, it was pretty loose and lame, but when I showed it to her, I was asking her idea on the outlay of money, and how things should be allocated. It turned into a pretty cool time all together. And that morning, she was making every effort to make my day suck! Point is, you never know what the reaction is going to be, and it just might surprise you! Don't let your imagination keep you from taking action.

I really hope the best for you. Good luck!

Let us know how things go, and don't lose focus!

I need prayer. So does she. I wish I was a more patient. Forgiving was easy for me. In a strange way I was almost glad there was an A going on. Finally I KNEW why I couldnt make my M work. I felt I could finally do a recovery plan that could restore my M.


I can understand that. The way I exposed her immediately and proved the A without a shadow of a doubt woke her up. I honestly believe her when she said she never meant to hurt me. She though we would magically get better eventually and she would just outgrow this when the OM moved away.

The last month my WW has just been existing really. She watched DD4 and just plays facebook games. She sleeps alot. She was talking on the phone for hours before (mainly to OM) now there is nothing. No calls to anyone.

I hope my WW understands the needs for boundaries as well as you do. You see how a harmless friendship can spiral horribly out of control. We are all hard wired for an A. It can happen to anyone under the right conditions. Im actually using the bible to help myself with boundaries. I never was tempted by another woman but it could happen. I try to keep all lust out of my life now. I dont even look at other girls and imagine. It helps me feel worthy of Gods help and I feel justified praying for it now.


Speaking as an BH if my wife did those things I would notice. It is showing commitment to recovery and a huge step above transparency.

Im sure someone has told you this but BHs WANT to trust their wifes. We just have been horribly victimized. We all KNEW something was going on. Most confronted their wife and got gas lighted. Then when we finnally find out we were lied to for months or YEARS its almost impossible for us to trust. Every time my WW is on the computer im wondering if she is on facebook chatting with him. I when she goes into her office is she just sneaking off to use an A phone and talk with him? Is she is just going to the store or she sneaking off to meet him?

These are ALL thoughts BSs have. They are a huge barrier to trust.

Gamma, i don't know how much my husband knows about the OM--he said some things in the past that led me to believe that he may have had me under some sort of surveillance and that he did some checking up on OM, but he also let slip some comments (referring to OM bitterly as Captain America, etc)that made me wonder, is he barking up the wrong tree? checking up on the wrong guy??

i don't believe the OM is superior to my husband. but i believe it would be easy for a slighted husband to perceive him as such. they are basically diametric opposites. the only thing they have in common is that they're both are both male and both carbon-based life forms.

BTW, OM and his father have the same name. it's possible my husband has gotten his info crossed up so he has this image in his mind of OM's appearance and personality, plus OM's dad's income and general respectability. OUCH.

there's no way i'm going to bring up the OM just to set H straight, so i figure if i can prove my commitment to my husband it will eventually be an ego boost that i chose my husband over Captain America. i hope i can make it clear to him to it won't be a constant source of insecurity.

remainnameless

"BTW, OM and his father have the same name. it's possible my husband has gotten his info crossed up so he has this image in his mind of OM's appearance and personality, plus OM's dad's income and general respectability. OUCH.

there's no way i'm going to bring up the OM just to set H straight"

Why no way?

I say yes way!

Ask BH why he called OM captian america? That the reason you bring this up is that your OM and the OMD have the same names. So you want to make sure that he knows who the real OM is.

Simple to the point. No excuses, no justification, no LB.

Sharing this truth is showing that you are willing to be honest and putting your BH's needs first.

This is how a recovery works. Taking steps to repair the damage.

Remain,

Oh Boy do I have a lot to say and not enough time to say it. I will second all of the advice you have been given. However, I want to offer you some insight into men and hopefully it will help you with your H. You said

Ok, understand this...REAL MEN DON't HAVE FEELINGS! Got that?
We don't have feelings, so quit talking about his feelings. What men do have are EGO's. Yup, we sure have them. Now to an undercerning woman, feelings and EGO's look alike , may sound the same, may walk the same, but this duck is not a duck. So when talking to your H understand you should avoid "feelings" and consider his ego. You know we ex-football players are way way too tough to have "feelings" or NEED anything.

I am sort of joking about this, but in a way I am not. Men are trained from an early age to suppress their feelings. IN sports this a huge thing. We learn to suppress pain, disappointment, and emotional empathy. My point is that you have to see your H for who he is and reach him in a way that will tell him you care.

He needs honesty from you, and your latest realization that keeping things from him is actually not treating him as a man you respect. Here is something else he needs and this seems very very clear. He needs your love and right now you can show him your love, but taking care of him. I can tell you right now his weight gain is because he has given up on HIMSELF, not you, HIMSELF. He looks at his loss of faith, his loss of his first W, your affairs, his many jobs, his weight gain, and even the pain he is in as sure signs he has failed. And yes perhaps as a sign that his faith has failed him.

I have a suggestion for you to consider actually two suggestions.

1. You said you need to talk and he needs to decompress. Obvious solution, when he comes home give him time to decompress if you do this willingly he will notice. He will notice your change in attitude as you willingly do this. Then later tell him you would like to talk, perhaps in bed, perhaps before you go to bed. Keep it short at first, just the main things of your day, of your thoughts ect. Talk, solicit his opinions.


2. You mentioned his weight and how you don't find it attractive. One of the kindest things you could do for him is put him on a sensible diet. You take charge of his life by making sure he eats healthy. This next thing sounds cruel, but it occurs to me, the next time you catch him with little or no clothes on make him look in the mirror and have him tell you what he sees. You tell him that you won't allow him to be in a way that brings him pain, and you tell him you will alter how this home is run so that he become healthy and you are doing it because you love him. I want you to think about this very carefully.

What you should learn and think about while you consider my suggestions, is that you can acheive many things and receive many things if you will give and focus on goals that benefit BOTH OF YOU.

Your H wants to be loved of that I have no doubt. He wanted and wants you to love him, I have no doubt. What you have not figured out is that problem isn't what he feels about you right now, it is what he feels about himself.

What most betrayed spouses, BS's, have trouble with isn't loving the WS, wayward spouse, who wants to come back, it is with the damage done to their own self-image and their expectations of themselves. Your H views himself as a loser and you contributed to this as did many other things in life.

The one thing he needs to understand as well as you, God gave us "free will" or none of us would be sinners. Your H's life is not about his faith, but about choices made by him and those around him. His job is to do his best to rise above it and it is your job to do the same.

If you love this man act in a loving manner. I am not talking about feelings here, I am talking about love as an action. And frankly acting in a loving manner doesn't mean tip toeing around issues or ignoring your needs. It is about bringing balance and health to each of your lives and doing it with care and love.

What Harley offers on this site are the tools to make and execute plans that allow you to care for and love your H as well as make your marriage something you both draw strength from and enjoy.

Start looking outward more than you look inward and I think you will start to really see what many here are telling you. You are not a bad person Remain, you just have not had a perspective that will allow you to succeed.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

check this out! i'm hyper-excited about this--my husband filled...out...an E...N...Q. dude. words cannot express. i had this whole thing planned, i was going to write up talking points and have this big serious discussion with my H this wkend. i was so nervous.

well, H was in an amiable mood yesterday evening--plus me and the kids had done all this domestic stuff, waxed the floor and baked bread, AND i had a very promising conversation w/ a prospective client, so i was feeling on top of the world. we got to bantering back and sort a little--dare i say flirting?--and i just winged it. i told H there was a group we should look into called Wounded, Hurting, Inadequately Nurtured, but Ever-Recovering Survivors (check the acronym), waited for the look of horror, then said "no, just kidding, it's Marriage Builders, we've read this guy's books, check this out." got a laugh out of him and the relief was so intense that he took the ENQ from me like BRING IT ON. he whipped through it, and then WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT. (does anyone else think it's phrased the way it is so that you almost have to explain yourself? clever man, that Dr. Harley!)

so this is what i found out: my husband is NOT in fact a heartless automaton who lives to oppress me. he may actually be the best man alive today. turns out, also, that in addition to loving me (remember love is a choice), he actually rather likes me. and if i'd understood him a little better, i would have known it all along.

turns out also that my terror of expressing dissatisfaction with anything has had him baffled, like, SINCE WE GOT MARRIED. and that since the affair, especially, i've been so blank and "Stepford-spooky" (his term, and an apt one, even subtly flattering in a back-handed way, yes?) that he was worried about me. which totally broke my heart--i mean, i've been trying to tiptoe on the periphery of his existence and my primary goal has been to stay out of his way. like Jeeves, say. and he's been WORRIED about me?

who would have thought that something as formulaic as a little questionnaire would prompt a paradigm shift in your understanding of someone you've lived with for almost a decade?
i mean, y'all, my husband ROCKS. and i JUST FOUND OUT.

p.s. anyone note the marked change of tone from my drama-queen woe-is-me initial post?

your quote:
"The last month my WW has just been existing really. She watched DD4 and just plays facebook games. She sleeps alot. She was talking on the phone for hours before (mainly to OM) now there is nothing. No calls to anyone."

i'm sure everyone has assured you, but take it from another WW: it's NOT you. here's what happens: very few WWs will admit to themselves that they made a deliberate decision to cheat. we'll rationalize that we were vulnerable and let our emotions run away with us, etc etc--but we KNOW when we meet someone who presents a temptation, and we KNOW we're playing with fire by choosing to spend time with them.

WWs spend months before the affair deliberately hardening our hearts against our husbands. we deliberately cultivate feelings of bitterness, contempt, and self-pity. we MAKE ourselves immune to love from our husbands so that we can justify pursuing the affair.

if you're like my husband, even if your wife's behavior didn't change noticably before or during the affair, you probably sensed something amiss and tried to compensate by being extra-nice and loving...and she probably ignored or dismissed your gestures.

if my husband tried to engage me in conversation, i thought, "oh, NOW you want to talk? day late, dollar short, buddy." if he hugged me, "sure, see how far that'll get you."
if he complimented me, "whatever, he's just fulfilling his be-nice quota so he can ignore me for the rest of the day."

all this is leading somewhere, promise: when the A ends, we LOSE...OUR...MINDS. we see everything through a fog because we a)probably saw ourselves as basically moral people before the A and have such a hard time reconciling our actions to the way we view ourselves that we decide EVERYONE must be as awful as we are, deep-down.
b)coping with the sudden "realization" that everyone on the planet sucks as badly as we do shakes the foundations of reality. we want comfort and solace badly, but
c) don't feel that we deserve it because on some deep, true level, we know how appalling and self-focused it would be to cry over what WE have done to YOU.

hence the escapism. your wife is trying to numb herself with mindless activity, just like i did with my obsessive running and overwork. at one point i decided, insanely, to LEVEL A HILL on our property. i zoned out and moved 14 yards of dirt in the space of 6 hours. she's doing the same thing--trying to escape from HERSELF.

i don't know if she'll accept comfort from you or if she's still stuck trying to purposely reject any loving actions, but if you can bring yourself to hug her and tell her she's not a bad person and that you're sorry she feels this way, i guarantee you she will shed tears. if i were a betting woman i would put money up that she's feeling more remorse than she can express.

keep fighting the good fight, buddy! i'm praying for your family!

Good post, RN.

i hope so, Bliss--know i'm the last person in the world who should be doling out advice right now, but i'm at least in a position to give the betrayed some insight into their WSs' convoluted minds and offer some hope.

You, my dear, are uniquely qualified to give advice. Sapphire's another one. Don't be afraid to talk about your experience if it can help others.

RN, your post should belong to notable posts thread.

Thank you.

Cant argue with you there. He was always in our M. Since the beginning. He went away for a bit when he got M. Once OM's wife had an A on him the calls started again.

Alot of my friends think that in his mind he never even saw her as M. WW sent him back the engagement ring about 4 yrs ago. He sent it right back and said he didnt want it. She ended up selling it online and paying for part of a cruise with it.


Things I noticed. The phone calls, the text messages, I noticed her going on trips by herself (said she needed to find herself). I also noticed she never wanted to kiss (thought it was her mouth surgery making her uncomfortable) and on the rarity we had SF (like 5 times in 4 years) she immediatly turned away and went to sleep afterwards.

I DID try to reconnect. I went with her to see her Sister. I ended up buying her an Hermes scarf. All she said was that she didnt deserve it. I backed off from all forms of affection because she wasnt comfy with it.


Thats sounds about like it. She definatly does NOT like to deal with problems.


Ive trying to "love" her through the hard times. She still is VERY uncomfortable with me touching her. I try to comfort her by just being there for her. She knows how I feel. I encourage her every way possible. She interprets me touching her as needy so I try to avoid it.

She doesnt like me being around her much because she doesnt want to lead me on. She knows she has hurt me and she says she is trying to protect my feelings. She said there are nights she wishes I was there to hold her. She just is on such a roller coaster of emotions. Hate then love.


Thank you.


Im so glad you gave him a chance. Im glad you got alot out of it too. Did you give him your ENQ? How did that go?


Just beware that there is sometimes a newlywed period when you connect. Enjoy it but realize that there may be a hangover effect later on. Thats normal though. Just keep meeting EN and you will have a better M than you ever had.

amen to all of the above.

warning: this may bore everyone to tears. i'm posting what i found out about my H's Emotional needs--mainly because it helps to see them in print to get my mind around them. as always, i'd welcome comments or solutions, but won't be surprised or disappointed if everyone yawns and hits "next topic."

DOMESTIC SUPPORT: ok, let me preface: i grew up with housekeepers and parents who divided labor like this: "if i cook, you clean. if you make a mess, you clean it up. don't mess w/ other people's stuff." whereas H grew up with a mom who did EVERYTHING, plus worked, plus volunteered, and he and his dad and 4 siblings were the passive recipients.

in my family, "never mind, i'LL do it" was the deepest of insults because the unspoken subtext was: "...since you're so selfish and/or incompetent that you can't be trusted to do it correctly."

in his family, "never mind, i'll do it" was a truly well-meant gesture from a husband who recognized when his wife had her hands full.

so: while i've been priding myself on how well i've been managing the household, he's been disappointed. i've kind of naturally fallen into the habit of picking up after myself and teaching our kids to do the same, plus everyone's laundry and dishes and cooking and basic cleaning, and being really proud of myself if i, say, bake something. (extra mile, there, baking.) i don't mess with his papers or the stuff stored in his closet, because it's HIS. we just have different thresholds of what we consider neat. he says he feels that i'm being deliberately disrespectful and "making a statement" by not keeping house the way his mom did.

also, i've always assumed that it's common sense that if one spouse is working outside the home and the other isn't, whomever's at home should take care of the housework, and if both are working, it makes sense for each to take care of their own stuff. DUH, i thought. apparently not. it's ALWAYS going to be my job in his mind.

it also bothers him that the stuff i excel at around the house is typically outdoorsy "man's work"--moving dirt, mucking out the ditches, repairing things, stuff like that. he's your classic manly-man, and he says he hates to see me out there working like a field-hand because he feels like he should be doing all that--but that he can't do it physically.

he actually saw it as a slight that i took on the "manly" work--sort of a "since you can't do it, i guess i'll have to." i assured him that i do it because i practically NEED to, physically, and was sure the heck not trying to make a statement. i also agreed to never, ever mow the lawn--that can be his manly yard thing.

bottom line: he's feeling neglected because he irons his own clothes each morning, while i'm feeling like super-wife because i made him coffee. see what i mean? this is going to take some SEVERE getting-used-to.

also: isn't it bizarre how husbands and wives misread each other, even when both have good intentions?

husband's ENQ results continued: boredom warning still applies. except the quote about my tendency to randomly admire things:
"this counter-top is sooo flat. i mean, look at that, you can set your drink right on it and it's not going ANYWHERE. whoever trued this sucker up is a VIRTUOSO with a level..."

REC COMPANIONSHIP:
H says he hates it that the stuff i do for fun are things that he can no longer do physically, and that he wishes we COULD learn to swing-dance, or go rock-climbing, or join a hiking club, but that he just can't do it.
solution: fishing! we have ponds on our property, doesn't cost us anything except time and a babysitter. and he could teach me to shoot, that's perfect--i'm thinking out loud here--he's an expert marksman, so it would be an opportunity for him to feel super-manly, teach me something i don't know, and not hurt himself. perfect-o...

ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE:
H says that recently he sees a pretty wife as a liability--before the affair it was a point of pride (yeah, eat your heart out, buddy, she's going home with ME, ha ha!) but that now he's intensely aware that when HE thinks i'm looking particularly good, other men must be thinking the same thing. he assured me that he doesn't want me to go and get ugly or anything, he just needs time to get back to viewing me as unequivocally HIS.

ADMIRATION
H needs it big-time, and he says i've always said and done everything he's wanted, but that he feels like there's less and less to admire about him so it just makes him feel worse. he pointed out that saying, "wow, you're looking good, have you been doing crunches?" makes it obvious that i'm GRASPING AT STRAWS and that i need to QUIT BEING FAKE. he says he has wondered if i'm being sarcastic in the worst way. not my intention. ouch.
now's the time to mention that i have a habit of saying nice if inane stuff at random whenever a situation gets uncomfortable--one of my friends does an impression of me where's she's like,"this counter-top is sooo flat. i mean, look at that, you can set your drink right on it and it's not going anywhere. whoever trued this sucker up is a VIRTUOSO with a level..." and so on.
i've probably been a huge pain in the a55, in retrospect, complimenting H at random when he's not in the mindframe to hear it. i told him that from now on i'll think my words through, and if i do compliment him, he should trust that it's sincere.

Remains,

Please go read the post I made a few posts up and then consider what you have just posted. There are ways to address much of this.

JL