I'm new to the forum and surely not unique in my experience, but i'm feeling so utterly alone that i'd be relieved to hear from someone, anyone, whether or not you've been through something similar.
i'm an anomaly: a 26-year-old wife who's been married 8 years. i should be proud that we've beat the odds; in addition to the too-young-to-marry factor, we've survived a lot of external, circumstantial stuff as well-
-but a year and a half ago, when my husband was deeply depressed and having a combined crisis of faith and early-onset midlife crisis (he's 8 years my senior), i prayed for a friend i could truly be open with, someone who could understand me and not judge me, someone with whom i could be REAL. (it's hard for a minister's wife to be real for fear of causing others to stumble--i was always cheerful, gracious, serene and encouraging w/ everyone who knew us, but it was gett9ng increasingly hard to maintain as my husband got more and more miserable and angry.) i felt that if i had just one person i could really confide in, i could be a stronger person, a better wife, etc...unfortunately, my prayer was answered. But evidently not by God. i met a man we'll call X, started a great friendship..that led to an AFFAIR after a year and a half of innocuous and non-physical, non-flirtatious friendship.
i was unfaithful. an adulteress.
i got caught. i told X on the phone, in my husband's presence, that i would never see him, call him, text him, etc. ever again. i haven't.
here's my problem: Dr. Harley says it typically takes 3 weeks or so recover from one's addiction to the illicit lover...it's been nearly 2 years and i am still...mourning, i guess.
i got a new job, worked 16 hour days. in my off time i ran till i collapsed, listened to angry music on my i=pod, hit my punching bag till i got a stress fracture. lost weight i couldn't afford to lose. kept my happy face on, got a raise and a promotion--see, daytime is OK as long as i'm busy--VERY busy, compulsively busy--but when i sleep i dream about X without fail.
i started sleeping on the couch because i wake up crying around 3 a.m almost every night. i dream that X has died and i go to his funeral and his mom slaps my face and calls me a whore. i dream that my husband tells my family that i was unfaithful and they disown me. that he tells my daughters and they grow up to cheat. every horrible outcome of adultery you can imagine, that's what i experience when i sleep. so i try not to.
this is a lot of self-pitying BS, i'm sure--bottom line is this: i miss X desperately. i ended things like i was supposed to according to Dr. Harley. i kept up my end of the deal and have not tried to contact X in any way. but my MIND is wrong. i go through the motions of trying to be a good wife, trying to make things right, but inside i feel numb and indifferent towards my husband because i am so...sad.
when does it go away? worst-case scenario? what can i do to fix this and stop missing this man?
i will take advice from anyone. no one knows about my infidelity because all our peers think my husband and i are the Golden Couple and i don't want to make anyone question their own commitment to their marriage. i confided in one friend that i had been unfaithful and she started cheating herself within a month and is now divorced. i don't want to start an epidemic. i need to tell someone who doesn't know me. if you're reading this, please help.

I'm new to the forum and surely not unique in my experience, but i'm feeling so utterly alone that i'd be relieved to hear from someone, anyone, whether or not you've been through something similar.
i'm an anomaly: a 26-year-old wife who's been married 8 years. i should be proud that we've beat the odds; in addition to the too-young-to-marry factor, we've survived a lot of external, circumstantial stuff as well-
-but a year and a half ago, when my husband was deeply depressed and having a combined crisis of faith and early-onset midlife crisis (he's 8 years my senior), i prayed for a friend i could truly be open with, someone who could understand me and not judge me, someone with whom i could be REAL. (it's hard for a minister's wife to be real for fear of causing others to stumble--i was always cheerful, gracious, serene and encouraging w/ everyone who knew us, but it was gett9ng increasingly hard to maintain as my husband got more and more miserable and angry.) i felt that if i had just one person i could really confide in, i could be a stronger person, a better wife, etc...unfortunately, my prayer was answered. But evidently not by God. i met a man we'll call X, started a great friendship..that led to an AFFAIR after a year and a half of innocuous and non-physical, non-flirtatious friendship.
i was unfaithful. an adulteress.
i got caught. i told X on the phone, in my husband's presence, that i would never see him, call him, text him, etc. ever again. i haven't.
here's my problem: Dr. Harley says it typically takes 3 weeks or so recover from one's addiction to the illicit lover...it's been nearly 2 years and i am still...mourning, i guess.
i got a new job, worked 16 hour days. in my off time i ran till i collapsed, listened to angry music on my i=pod, hit my punching bag till i got a stress fracture. lost weight i couldn't afford to lose. kept my happy face on, got a raise and a promotion--see, daytime is OK as long as i'm busy--VERY busy, compulsively busy--but when i sleep i dream about X without fail.
i started sleeping on the couch because i wake up crying around 3 a.m almost every night. i dream that X has died and i go to his funeral and his mom slaps my face and calls me a [censored]. i dream that my husband tells my family that i was unfaithful and they disown me. that he tells my daughters and they grow up to cheat. every horrible outcome of adultery you can imagine, that's what i experience when i sleep. so i try not to.
this is a lot of self-pitying BS, i'm sure--bottom line is this: i miss X desperately. i ended things like i was supposed to according to Dr. Harley. i kept up my end of the deal and have not tried to contact X in any way. but my MIND is wrong. i go through the motions of trying to be a good wife, trying to make things right, but inside i feel numb and indifferent towards my husband because i am so...sad.
when does it go away? worst-case scenario? what can i do to fix this and stop missing this man?
i will take advice from anyone. no one knows about my infidelity because all our peers think my husband and i are the Golden Couple and i don't want to make anyone question their own commitment to their marriage. i confided in one friend that i had been unfaithful and she started cheating herself within a month and is now divorced. i don't want to start an epidemic. i need to tell someone who doesn't know me. if you're reading this, please help.

What seems to be lacking is any plan of recovery. With an alcoholic, for example, only the first step is quitting drinking; the other 11 steps are building a life without alcohol. It is the same with adulterers. In order to recover they must have a plan and do much more than just ending the affair. They must affair proof their marriage and create a romantic relationship to fill the vacuum created by the loss of the affair.

That is where I would start if I were you: get the book Surviving an Affair, Lovebusters and His Needs, Her Needs and follow the program as outlined in those books.

Do you live close to the OM? Do you EVER see him anywhere? Is he married and if so, does his wife know what you have done?

Here is what it will take to recover your marriage:

here

you're probably right regarding lack of a concrete plan--my husband is anti-counseling, anti-interference of any sort. i think he's as ashamed as i am. radical honesty makes me cringe for obvious reasons--i don't want anyone to know what i did--but i think it would make him feel like less of a man to tell someone that i cheated.

we read Dr. Harley's books forever ago and are familiar with the concepts, but it's hard to strategize and form a plan of action when you're not on the same page. without using the specific terminology, i'm trying to do my part to make us right. i want to be a good wife but i feel so woefully inept. i feel like if i had been good enough, he would have come through his rough patch without depression and misery, or that at least i would have been able to bring him some comfort, if not joy. i subscribe wholeheartedly to the love tank concept, but it seems i've always fallen short with him. i need to study further and see if i can coax some info from him about what he really needs from me as a wife.

the OM--seems strange to refer to him as such but it does help depersonalize him-- lives almost an hour from me. we have never crossed paths since i ended it, nor is it likely that we ever will. he's a divorcee, no wife to inform.

Hi sorry you are here Remain, here are some things I do to help my relationship with my husband being a WW myself.

1. I treat him with respect as a father and husband, knowing that I have respect for him makes me love him more, and knowing that he is the bread winner in this family, he IS THE MAN!

2. I give him compliments threw out the day, so he knows that I admire his hard work and his accomplishments.

3. I think positive thoughts about our relationship, so when I start thinking or missing the OM (Other man) this is what I do. "STOP STOP STOP STOP!! (I literally scream this in my head) I love my husband, I love Wheels, he is everything to me!" or I just say "STOP STOP STOP STOP!! I miss wheels, I wish he was here right now." Then the next time I see him, I give him a HUGE hug and a very romantic KISS!

4. I make goals with him, making goals is one of my top 5 EN's even though it really isn't on the list but it is on mine every time we make a goal together either its for the house, my business, the kids, etc. I get more and more excited about OUR future together!

You need to start thinking a different thought, it sounds like you have a little voice in your head that says "I miss OM" or "I wish I was with the OM instead." First thing you need to do is CHANGE THAT A.S.A.P because what you think about you bring about, once you start thinking that, then you will never stop loving your OM. Change your thought patterns, start yelling at yourself inside your brain and start thinking about your husband, you love him, and there is know one else you would rather be then him. Give him compliments everyone LOVES compliments, it will make you fall more and more in love with your husband when you actually show and say those admiration's.

SO whats it gunna be? You gunna start changing your thought patterns? Or are you going to live the next 20 years thinking about and wishing you were with the OM?

My advice: always listen to Mel, she is right.

Also, you need to fix what you are doing in the marriage. You can persuade your husband to work with you, but it is all his choice. Along with the books that Mel has posted take the questionnaires for each book with your husband. The material here is also a gold mine, read it thoroughly until you are an expert.

Here are some terms that you AND your husband should know and work on:

1. POJA (Policy of Joint Agreement)
2. LB$ (Love Bank)
3. EN (Emotional Needs)
4. LB (Love Busters)

Research these and practice them, only practice makes perfect.

Find out why your husband seems so angry, or aggressive, do not try to fix him, just be there to listen to him, and let him tell you on his time frame.

Also if you are having nightmares of his family knowing, why not face those nightmares and fess up to them what is going on. I think it would be a weight off your and your husbands shoulders.

Radical honesty is what you practice with each other. It is superficiality that prevents intimacy in marriages. In your case, I would tell your H exactly what you told us above. He should that you are unhappy and are still pining away for the OM. That might motivate him to get to work on your marriage.

Also, fantasizing about your adultery partner tells me you don't have a realistic perspective about him or the affair. The truth is that your affair would have never made it. The vast majority of affairs [95%] fail within 2 years. The very traits that made them possible, thoughtlessness, deceit, dishonesty, disrespect, quickly erode the affair.

Not to mention the fact that men that do it with married women have a profound disrespect for the married woman and the institution of marriage. Affairees are rarely tolerated by family members either, so the relationship is hampered by an inability to darken the doorstep of inlaws, friends, etc.

In other words, affairs are fraught with problems so it is important to view them in a realistic light, rather than a romantic light. Affairs are RARELY "romantic" once the lights are turned on in the crack house. Rather, they are disgusting, repulsive and unworkable when the lights are turned on.

thank you so much, MelodyLane. it makes a huge difference just to know that someone cares enough to evaluate this miserable situation and reply...

let me ask you this--what if my husband doesn't WANT to know? he made it clear that he knows i cheated and that he doesn't want to know why, who, where, etc.--for a while i kept a journal for my own benefit, trying to get my mind around exactly why i allowed it to happen, the circumstances that made it possible, etc--so i've at least been honest with myself.

i've been on eggshells with my husband ever since--obviously my phone records, email accounts, facebook, GPS routes, etc are an open book to him, he has concrete proof that i'm not cheating any longer--but he has no interest whatsoever in why i cheated in the first place. and i feel that to explain it would sound cruel, as though i were trying to make it his fault. which it wasn't. is there a way to get on with our lives without hashing it out? do we HAVE to talk about it? i can talk about it, but i sincerely believe that my husband can't. i know dr. h says it's insulting to assume that someone "can't handle the truth", but i really believe it's true, here. if someone says they don't want to hear it, do they still need to hear it, or would i just be being mean at that point?

^AGREE! (on melody's post)

Your H needs to know the truth about your feelings about the OM and your marriage. THAT is what I mean by radical honesty. He needs to know you are unhappy.

Do you ever speak to him, email him, IM him, see him on facebook? Did you save any pictures, anything?

Where is the intimacy in this situation?
There is none.
That is why you harbor feelings for OM.
Your marriage is cold.

My advice?
Tell you H that you are miserable.
Be honest.
And tell H you will be calling a MARRIAGE BUILDER program to get a plan to make your marriage intimate and loving.
And then, YOU make the call to the MB counseling line.
They will counsel you separately.


You take this step.
Your H will get on board.
You make the first move.

God bless.

i totally love your attitude!

thank you for the support--i totally agree with idea of "speaking it into being"; i make a point of telling my husband his haircut looks hot, or he did a killer job mowing the Lawn, or his presentation for work was awesome--and most important of all, i hype him up to our daughters, telling them how cool it is that their daddy's such a hard worker, so clever, etc.

my best-case scenario is to love my husband and stay with him forever. but i realize now that i've been trying to chase away thoughts of X by staying too busy to think about ANYTHING except the task at hand--fine solution for small worries, but not really healthy at all when it comes to life-altering issues. you're right, i need to just live my life like a normal non-workaholic person and confront thoughts of X like a grown-up...it's going to be hard, but i look forward to the day when i can enjoy life with my husband.

thank you again for your enthusiastic support!

nothing. no email, pics, facebook, nothing. i could contact him easily enough if i wanted to, i just haven't, out of respect for my husband and the promise i made not to.

i don't harbor any fantasies about What Might Have Been...X was pretty impractical as far as any type of relationship goes. i don't think i would be happier if i divorced my husband and married him, for instance.

tell you the truth, i would LOVE to hear through the grapevine that X has gotten remarried, or moved to Utah, or something. maybe that would help me forget him.

i might have broken the Don't Whine rule, huh? =)

Thank you for your black-and-white perspective on things--it's so easy when you're looking at a situation subjectively to let the whole thing dissolve into shades of gray, am I right?

I jolly well WILL talk to my husband honestly. albeit with some measure of sweetness and tact.

cross your fingers, or pray, or just wish fervently for me to do this right...

THANK YOU!! *
the folks on this forum are the first and only people i've ever confided in about this. (i was convinced that i was going to get verbally stoned to death. you are all good people and i thank you sincerely for your kindness, understanding, and good advice.

RemainNameless,

I have not been on here for a while but when I read your post, I felt compelled to respond. To answer your question, you are not an anomoly. I have been dealing with a similar situation for 10 plus years, but on the other side of the equation as the BS. It seems to me that you need to communicate with your husband and go to counseling, that is if you really want to save your marriage. Believe me when I say that your husband likely knows that you are thinking of X and wanting to be with him..he can probably see it in your eyes and in your behavior towards him. Ask yourself if you REALLY want to be in your marriage?? Does X really symbolize something else like an escape from your current situation? If he does not want to do counseling, I would suggest that you consider going for yourself and work on you. When you do, my guess is that it will go away. Good luck and God Bless!!

It seems to me the elephant is still in the room. The other man is on your mind because your husband is not. Your husband is focusing on (I deduce he is in the ministry) building the ministry. I hope he gets the message that his next priority after his relationship with God is his responsibility to nurture the relationship with his family. It sounds to me like he is in "lets ignore it and maybe it will go away" and "if it goes away I won't have to face the issues I need to change in my life".

Your husband needs to get on board and you need to have an honest and frank discussion about your relationship. I suspect he will try to avoid it and you may try to retreat back to avoidance through work, but the elephant needs to be acknowledged. Both of you would do well to adhere to POJA the principal of joint agreement and radical honesty. I think your husband needs to buy into these principles. I am concerned for your husband, as he is trying to build his ministry in his own strength. If his relationship with his wife is out of alignment his spiritual walk will suffer. The pressure to "appear" to be perfect in the ministry is immense. It is too difficult to maintain this, we are all human. It is God who is perfect not the Pastor.

I suspect you are both feeling alone in this struggle. Your marriage needs surgery and nobody wants to call the ambulance, because of fear. What will it look like. This cannot be sustained long term. Your husband needs to start meeting your needs and you your husbands needs. As Melody says you can fall back in love with your husband, but there needs to be a recognition that there is a problem by both parties. And for your marriage to survive I believe the idea of "keep it all looking good" will have to be jettisoned. By overcoming this issue you both will have much greater impact in your ministry.

Blessings
BCBoy

you rock, taz30! your perceptions are all totally on point and i'm glad you took time to reply...like i said, i was convinced that i was totally alone in this. nothing new under the sun, right? =)
here's a scenario: what if i DON'T love my husband right now? trust me, i want to. nothing would make me happier than to fall in love with the man i'm already married to and live happily ever after. i've already committed myself to staying married no matter what--you think counseling can help me remember WHY i want to stay married to him?
not being sarcastic here, just totally candid. i could never be this honest with people i see face-to-face.
you think it's possible to fall back in love if you work at it?

Remain,

You have been given excellent advice by all who have posted to you. I really liked BCB's because he points out something very important to you about you, your H, your family and your marriage.

YOU CANNOT DO THIS ALONE.
YOUR H CANNOT BUILD A MINISTRY OR BE A GOOD H ALONE.

You are trying to recover from your addiction to OM, but in actuality you are trying to find someone who loves you and your mind goes to OM. He is not the problem. You need your God's help, you need YOUR H's help. Conversely, your H needs your help to see where he is failing. You two are supposed to be ONE and you are not. Your age is not the problem and neither is his. It is the two of you trying to go it alone, and still keep a facade of happiness for everyone.

Noone in his ministry will enjoy his LYING to them, and he is. Noone in his ministry, your family, and your friends will enjoy you lying to them. Both of you are lying.

I made this post to another woman on this site who had an affair and despairs that her marriage can be saved. Rather than type it again please read it. It offers the rudiments of a plan using the MB approach. It can be fleshed out and expanded at your choice. Here it is Helena's thread

God Bless,

JL

To tell your BH about the affair when he does not want to know is wrong. The BH/BW gets to control what they need to hear about the OP.

For some, meaning I have seen a few BH's that were content to know the affair was over and their WW was recommitting to the marriage. Once told these things they refused to learn more.

How ever their right to not know more must be overwritten. As when the OM was a friend, relative of BH. The OM knocked up the WW. WW got an STD. The reason for the house to be sold you must move because the OM was a neighbor, or you must leave your job because you work with the OM.

Kind of hard to not tell BH why he has move without the why. Same for giving up that fabulous job.

To add mmany BH's want to know everything about their WW's affair and the OM.

Have you read His Needs Her Needs? It sounds like husband needs to do his share of fulfilling your needs.

RemainNameless,

Thoughts below:

here's a scenario: what if i DON'T love my husband right now?

Response: 1st of all why don't you love your husband? I encourage you to be honest with yourself and fully lay out why.

trust me, i want to.
nothing would make me happier than to fall in love with the man i'm already married to and live happily ever after.

Response: why do you want to love him again? Is it because this is what you are supposed to do and to do otherwise would bring on shame? Or is it some other reason? My advice is to take it slow and 1st communicate with him. In my case, the FWS was upset because she felt her life was taken from her...a career and a lost chance with a first love. The career could have happened and the first love was something in the past that was never going to be. Morale of the story - You have to stop looking in the past and actually look foward if you want to move ahead successfully!! (Try to walk forward while your head is turned looking behind you...does not work so well right?)

i've already committed myself to staying married no matter what--you think counseling can help me remember WHY i want to stay married to him? not being sarcastic here, just totally candid. i could never be this honest with people i see face-to-face.you think it's possible to fall back in love if you work at it?
Response: is it possible to fall back in love...YES it is! Remember that the foundation of your relationship has been torn down and now has to be rebuilt by both to endure. Again, you have to ask yourself and be totally honest as to why you want to stay married no matter what. Is it for appearances, safety and security, for the kids (if you have any) or some other reason? You have to change that attitude eventually IMHO. It has to be that you want to be with him.

Good luck and God Bless!!

yeah, we read it forever ago when we were first married, way before we had any conflicts. i'm going back over it earnestly and trying to do my part learn how to meet his needs--at this stage it's really not fair for me to ask anything of him re MY needs.

i'm just trying to lay low, be sweet, and give him space and time to get get over what i did. maybe one day we'll be at the point where i can be open about what i want from him--but what if my needs are fundamentally at odds with his? ex:

i crave animated, spontaneous conversation. always, pretty much. my H has a demanding job and his greatest desire when he gets home is for peace and quiet--a totally legitimate need that i can respect, and one that i indulge. my "need" for conversation is really a preference, his need is a NEED. i don't want talking to me to be a chore for him, some kind of obligation he has to fulfill each day for a certain time period. either you find someone entertaining to talk to or you don't. he doesn't.

he's gained a lot of weight and can't work out anymore--old football injuries, chronic pain. not his fault. it's not as though he got fat on purpose because he doesn't respect my desire for a good-looking husband.

i could go on and on--do you see what i mean by asking what if my needs aren't compatible with his? wouldn't it be sort of a mean, challenging gesture to point out to him what's important to me when he's not physically or emotionally equipped to fulfill these needs?

i'm trying to work on myself first--is there a way to literally change one's mind and sort of downplay certain needs until you honestly don't care about them anymore? i want to be happy with my husband, but i feel like there's going to have to be some serious INTERNAL change--like i need to redefine my own expectations and wants and needs.

reasons to stay married:

we have two adorable girls who love their dad, and i've always taught them that marriage is special, sacred, marriage is forever, marriage is a joy, etc etc. i want them to have happy marriages when they grow up--i want to be a good example of a great mom and wife. i would be the worst kind of hypocrite if i left my husband and undid all that. it would shatter their faith in happy families.

it breaks my heart to think of my friend who jumped ship and got divorced less than a year after i admitted to her that i had been unfaithful...i feel as though i sanctioned and encouraged it. led by example, so to speak. (gallows humor, there.) i don't want to influence other people with my bad decisions.

it would RUIN my husband. i'm his second wife. she cheated too. 3 strikes you're out.

in short, i don't want to throw away an 8-year marriage because i lost my mind and made a selfish, spoiled, princessy decision. i believe there's a pay-off for people who do it right...there is surely a special joy in celebrating your 50th anniversary.

i KNOW my mind isn't right, right this red-hot second, because the selfish part of me DOES want to cut and run:
"c'mon, you deserve it, you can start over, you don't know what you're missing, what the hell, kids are resilient, right?"
messed up as i am, though, i know that's not right. and equally important, it's not even statistically correct.

no, i don't like my husband right now--but i want to.

RN,

How is your H handling this, you write alot about yourself,and perhaps that is honest, but preachers are under a gigantic burden to be perfect persons, how does he cope?

it almost sounds like he moved on but never allowed the wound to heal.

How far away is OM?

God Bless
Gamma

he reacted pretty...intensely. without making any threats, he said several times that one of the three of us should die. i don't believe he hates me all the time now, but i can tell he does sometimes.

he is no longer in the ministry. i had mentioned he had been struggling with a crisis of faith before the affair, but that's not really accurate--he was debating over whether to leave his position at our church. he decided not to renew his contract just before he found out about the affair. now, his decision to leave that particular position doesn't bespeak a crisis of faith, he was just listening earnestly for God's direction--the real crisis ensued immediately afterward, when he found out about the affair.

his faith is destroyed. we no longer even attend church. he is bitter towards God, towards the church as an institution, towards everyone in ministry, and is convinced that his devotion to the ministry led him to neglect his family, which led to the affair. WHICH IS EMPHATICALLY NOT THE CASE. he feels that everything in this world is conspiring to make him miserable.

7 years in the ministry. now in the past 2 years he's been through 4 jobs. he started taking painkillers a few months ago for an old football injury that flared up--now he takes them every day. he doesn't hate me all the time, but he is tolerant at best.

i'm afraid i have ruined him forever.

RN,

Is the OM superior in some ways to your H, or perhaps more importantly, does your H feel that OM is?

One of the things which killed me about OM in my case was that he was younger/better looking than I am.

God Bless
Gamma

RN,

Do you even tell him the things you are feeling? From reading more of your posts, it sure sounds like you two need to do some healing through counseling...I urge you to communicate your feelings and desires and listen to his!! I have been through a very similar thing and talking, no matter how unpleasant or uncomfortable it may be, is key to healing if you want it. The way you are going, both of you are going to be miserable without doing something different!!

i'm trying to get brave. i feel like: if i couldn't ask him to treat me differently before the affair, now i REALLY don't have the right to ask for anything. i've tried "what can i do to make YOU happy?" but he has always insisted that he's perfectly content, even when he's obviously not.

you know, we've never in 9 years had a proper fight. i'm a very outspoken person socially, but with my husband...maybe i feel like there's too much at stake. like, what if i express some opinion that offends him. or what if i tell him that such-and-such is really important to me and it turns out he's not willing or able to do that/be that? then he'll feel inadequate forever.

i'm trying to put things in perspective--nothing to lose, really, at this point. i just need to man up, huh?

i agree 100%. I do NOT want to know everything. I already know why the A started, where it started, and all about the OM. I dont want to know the details of the SF and their dirty dealings with him. SHE will have to live with that and i will support her.

I DO still want to know what needs he was filling so i can meet those. I also want to know how she contacted the OM so I can seal that crack.

Basically I want to focus on the future and things I can do. Not history that will just depress me and give me more triggers I dont wanna deal with.

Best of luck with your M.

BTW talk to him about a goal. Where you want your M to be. Get him to agree thats what he wants. Then sell him the idea of MB. Its a system that can get you that goal.

RN,

then he'll feel inadequate forever.

Perhaps he never got the straight dope from his first wife either so he is now flying blind.

One action does not remove or overshadow another, your affair does not make your/his lack of communication unimportant, both have to be dealt with.

Silence and dishonesty was what allowed your affair to live.

God Bless
Gamma

RemainNameless,
This is my opinion if you want it...!
You do have the right to ask to have your needs met. If he truely wants your marriage to work he has to do his share. It takes 2 to get your marriage to a point where you feel like straying. You made the bad choice, but he contributed to the problem.
There are ways to make your needs fit. Are you sure it is spontaneous conversation you need, or is it just conversation? Every evening my husband and I go to bed and just talk for at least half an hour. I NEED it. He doesn't. He does it for me. Physical activity is a small part of weight loss. Eating healthy will make a huge impact - exercise or not. Etc...
I agree, you need to look forward. Put yourself all in - or don't and move on. It sounds like your husband could definitely use some counseling to help him recover and help direct you as well.

Once you both have chosen to embark on Dr. Willard Harley's recovery program together -- outlined in "Surviving An Affair", and explored more fully in "Love Busters", "His Needs, Her Needs", and "Five Steps to Romantic Love" -- it typically takes around two years for the two of you to feel fully in-love and to trust one another again.

As the betrayer, the burden is on you to ensure your actions and words are in perfect harmony with one another for the rest of your life, even if your spouse isn't quite on board with it yet. No "trickle truth". Don't hold anything back. If asked questions, answer them immediately and honestly.

Learn to live your life by the rules of Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty, paying special attention to the Policy of Joint Agreement and Exclusive Needs-Meeting. From this day for the rest of your life.

I like Pepperband's advice. I was kinda thinking the same thing. I've been sitting here doing back flips for my WW for years and years, and totally missed the boat on her needs. It wasn't till I took some very negative communication from her to heart. In a nutshell, she was pissed because she thought that I spent money too freely. She has told me this for years, but I didn't think it was a problem for one reason or other. I came up with a budget on my own and presented it to her, and she dropped everything at that minute to sit and refine it. It was completely amazing...Ever since that night she thinks that I have shown her what she needs to put her effort back into the relationship.
The point is, it might seem like you are doing everything that YOU would want from a partner...but their needs and expectations and responses would be completely different. Analyze the things they say to you that may be positive. Those might be the things that they want to hear from you...check out the EN questionaires and do your best to work together on it and keep trying to figure out those shortcomings that will make your spouse receptive to more communication about the subject. I try to bring it up when we are just bored maybe once a week. You got to take it slowly.
If you think you aren't reaching your spouse, you might try a different form of communication. Email, text message...just throwing out some ideas...

Good luck! At least you are being proactive!

good advice, as is all i've received--thanks, everyone!

my H (like how i'm picking up the acronyms?) isn't the type to come right out and say This Is How You Can Meet My Needs, so i'm trying to just observe whatever elicits a positive or negative reaction from him--i frankly don't know if he can admit to himself that he HAS emotional needs. i mentioned to him that i'm studying some reputable material on how i can be a better wife, but i'm going really easy on the terminology.

i'm sure lots of people have commented on how wierd it is to start over after an affair, as far as rebuilding trust, etc--but i feel like i'm just now starting to understand the most basic concepts of marriage for the first time. like, elementary stuff. i've spent so many years just trying not to actively make him UNhappy it's barely occurred to me that there's got to be something i can do to make him HAPPY.

i've been through all the questionnaires and have copies for him, but he's pretty dismissive of anything that smacks of Sensitive Man...i'm trying to obliquely get info without grilling him.

i don't think i'll ever be able to say, "hey, here's what you can do to meet my needs", but if i can get a smile out of him i'll feel infinitely better as a wife and as a person.

let me ask you this, when your wife came out and told you how important it was to her to rein in your spending, was it before or after the affair? and if after, was your first reaction, "wow, i guess i really should have been putting you first in our financial decisions" or was it more along the lines of, "how dare you critique my decisions in light of what you've done?"

excellent advice across the board.

my husband has left the ministry and the church as an institution. i know i was probably the final brick in the wall, there--he was already struggling with matters of faith, he felt that God was allowing all circumstances in his life to conspire against him; and while by all outward appearances i kept up an appearance of empathy and support for him, that just made it harder for him when he discovered my betrayal. he's now CONVINCED that God has it in for him, and worse, he believes his devotion to the ministry caused him to neglect his family and therefore led to my affair. which i've tried to assure him is completely untrue, but why would he listen to me now, right?

i am trying with every ounce of strength i can muster to meet my husband's needs...maybe that will eventually help him trust again--not so much me in particular, but the world at large, with God at the helm.

hey, on a happy note, i slept in his bed last night! and he talked to me about work this evening when he came home!

I bumped a thread for you to read.
Part of being a good spouse is learning the fine art of complaining.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2232015

It seems counter-intuitive, at first.
But learning to complain and learning to listen to complaints are BOTH good marriage habits!

Fill out your ENQ. Talk to him about it then give it to him. Make sure its at a place he can look at it without someone seeing him. In private maybe he WILL look at it.

If that doesnt work maybe make a fun coupon book out of it. Or give him the list when he asks about what christmas/birthday presents you would want. Maybe schedule a brainstorming session with him to discuss ways you can present these ideas in a way that he can handle.

Just dont give up. Always keep in mind the devil is out there never far away. He knows when your vulnerable. During recovery (especially hard ones) you are very vulnerable to another A. Set boundaries for yourself so you dont get tempted.

GOLLY GEE. this was strictly on point.

i actually came across this original article not too long ago, as in this very evening, but sort of skimmed over it and didn't apply it to myself--i always felt like i was demonstrating unconditional love by not ever expressing discontent. but in retrospect, it was kind of crappy and patronizing of me to treat my husband like he was too fragile to deal with a few simple, gentle requests.

this weekend, he and i are going to talk, for real. i'm totally chicken. public speaking used to be my job, and it's all coming back to me now--dry mouth, the works. i'm going to prepare talking points and commit them to memory so they don't sound stilted when we talk. i may post a tentative outline so i can get this crew's input on how to phrase things.

THANK YOU!

i just read your thread pretty much from the beginning--it sounds like you're really committed to making your marriage work and that you've been very patient and self-sacrificing and forgiving with your wife. i'm so glad to hear that you're at home where you belong and i'm confident that she will recognize your commitment and realize how much her family means to her. i'm praying for you. or wishing fervently, as you prefer. =)

I have set boundaries for myself--it hasn't been terribly difficult, to tell you the truth. i don't particularly like PEOPLE right now--i don't know if other wandering wives would recognize this phenomenon, but once one realizes the import of one's behavior, it's not so much of a fog, it's like whatever internal device one has that filters the I Like You from the I Dislike You goes on the fritz...speaking for myself here, but i've craved solitude ever since i ended it.

i don't trust myself to make good friendships any time soon--keep in mind that the OM was in fact a legitimate friend before i corrupted him. i know my feelings are transient and fundamentally selfish right now, so i make sure my husband is aware of everyone new i meet in my business dealings, let him know if i need to take or make a call from a male associate, and of course he has all my email passwords and can track me on GPS to see where i am if he feels the need to do so.

talking to my husband this weekend! without giving him the ol' WE NEED TO TALK, i'm going to set aside some time and make it happen--i'll be posting my talking points and would welcome input on phrasing, etc.

At one point in time I might have said the same thing...but after years in recovery and working the MB program really well, I have no problem with it. In fact, neither of us do and it's actually quite fun.

IMHO this is something you should work towards...if it's that uncomfortable for you it shouldn't be and it can only help your M to change this.

Thanks for the questions...She has been griping about it for years...Before we were very pressed for money and there was NOTHING extra. Sometimes I would take it upon myself to buy a beer or whatever and it would really upset her.
Now I am fairly well to do, but unbelievably occasionally live paycheck to paycheck, so it was important to implement some type of budget and is probably good for any family.

To answer your question, I used to respond to her for a few weeks with the "how dare you" business, but that was because she was still not respecting my boundaries...I got over that in about 3 weeks after she really started to make some big strides and it showed. I wouldn't be too worried about that type of response unless there are things that he is asking for that you are still not respecting. Things that pertain to the affair and such.

The way that she communicated her need was absolutely brutal. She sent numerous emails to my work flipping out that the money was all gone again, calling me names and such. I got a little upset, but after reading YEG's topic, I saw it for what it was, a tantrum. I really do NOT respond well to that type of communication and who would, but after I got over my feelings, which is advice I've gotten on this site, I decided to look for a solution. That was me being a leader and taking action.

It impressed the hell out of her, and with all the talk about people standing up for themselves and not taking any more BS, and how that shows one person or the other that they are stronger and that esp. women respect their man more after it...I feel like sometimes the converse of that is you might also have to bite the big one and really admit that you have been making a mistake for a LONG time...like me!

On another note, I'm in sales and sometimes my imagination is my worst enemy. I have thoughts like, "what if they say no, or what if they decide not to go ahead with the deal now," and on...Most of the time, it isn't as bad as I painted it in my head at all and I did all that worrying for nothing.

I pray a lot before we talk. I ask for wisdom in the situation and wisdom in how to communicate with my WW...

One person told me here that there are sometimes a lot of hurt feelings, but really you should focus on the goal, and communicate that in terms of, "how are we going to handle this What can we do to make sure that this situation does not present itself again?"

When I set up the budget, it was pretty loose and lame, but when I showed it to her, I was asking her idea on the outlay of money, and how things should be allocated. It turned into a pretty cool time all together. And that morning, she was making every effort to make my day suck! Point is, you never know what the reaction is going to be, and it just might surprise you! Don't let your imagination keep you from taking action.

I really hope the best for you. Good luck!

Let us know how things go, and don't lose focus!

I need prayer. So does she. I wish I was a more patient. Forgiving was easy for me. In a strange way I was almost glad there was an A going on. Finally I KNEW why I couldnt make my M work. I felt I could finally do a recovery plan that could restore my M.


I can understand that. The way I exposed her immediately and proved the A without a shadow of a doubt woke her up. I honestly believe her when she said she never meant to hurt me. She though we would magically get better eventually and she would just outgrow this when the OM moved away.

The last month my WW has just been existing really. She watched DD4 and just plays facebook games. She sleeps alot. She was talking on the phone for hours before (mainly to OM) now there is nothing. No calls to anyone.

I hope my WW understands the needs for boundaries as well as you do. You see how a harmless friendship can spiral horribly out of control. We are all hard wired for an A. It can happen to anyone under the right conditions. Im actually using the bible to help myself with boundaries. I never was tempted by another woman but it could happen. I try to keep all lust out of my life now. I dont even look at other girls and imagine. It helps me feel worthy of Gods help and I feel justified praying for it now.


Speaking as an BH if my wife did those things I would notice. It is showing commitment to recovery and a huge step above transparency.

Im sure someone has told you this but BHs WANT to trust their wifes. We just have been horribly victimized. We all KNEW something was going on. Most confronted their wife and got gas lighted. Then when we finnally find out we were lied to for months or YEARS its almost impossible for us to trust. Every time my WW is on the computer im wondering if she is on facebook chatting with him. I when she goes into her office is she just sneaking off to use an A phone and talk with him? Is she is just going to the store or she sneaking off to meet him?

These are ALL thoughts BSs have. They are a huge barrier to trust.

Gamma, i don't know how much my husband knows about the OM--he said some things in the past that led me to believe that he may have had me under some sort of surveillance and that he did some checking up on OM, but he also let slip some comments (referring to OM bitterly as Captain America, etc)that made me wonder, is he barking up the wrong tree? checking up on the wrong guy??

i don't believe the OM is superior to my husband. but i believe it would be easy for a slighted husband to perceive him as such. they are basically diametric opposites. the only thing they have in common is that they're both are both male and both carbon-based life forms.

BTW, OM and his father have the same name. it's possible my husband has gotten his info crossed up so he has this image in his mind of OM's appearance and personality, plus OM's dad's income and general respectability. OUCH.

there's no way i'm going to bring up the OM just to set H straight, so i figure if i can prove my commitment to my husband it will eventually be an ego boost that i chose my husband over Captain America. i hope i can make it clear to him to it won't be a constant source of insecurity.

remainnameless

"BTW, OM and his father have the same name. it's possible my husband has gotten his info crossed up so he has this image in his mind of OM's appearance and personality, plus OM's dad's income and general respectability. OUCH.

there's no way i'm going to bring up the OM just to set H straight"

Why no way?

I say yes way!

Ask BH why he called OM captian america? That the reason you bring this up is that your OM and the OMD have the same names. So you want to make sure that he knows who the real OM is.

Simple to the point. No excuses, no justification, no LB.

Sharing this truth is showing that you are willing to be honest and putting your BH's needs first.

This is how a recovery works. Taking steps to repair the damage.

Remain,

Oh Boy do I have a lot to say and not enough time to say it. I will second all of the advice you have been given. However, I want to offer you some insight into men and hopefully it will help you with your H. You said

Ok, understand this...REAL MEN DON't HAVE FEELINGS! Got that?
We don't have feelings, so quit talking about his feelings. What men do have are EGO's. Yup, we sure have them. Now to an undercerning woman, feelings and EGO's look alike , may sound the same, may walk the same, but this duck is not a duck. So when talking to your H understand you should avoid "feelings" and consider his ego. You know we ex-football players are way way too tough to have "feelings" or NEED anything.

I am sort of joking about this, but in a way I am not. Men are trained from an early age to suppress their feelings. IN sports this a huge thing. We learn to suppress pain, disappointment, and emotional empathy. My point is that you have to see your H for who he is and reach him in a way that will tell him you care.

He needs honesty from you, and your latest realization that keeping things from him is actually not treating him as a man you respect. Here is something else he needs and this seems very very clear. He needs your love and right now you can show him your love, but taking care of him. I can tell you right now his weight gain is because he has given up on HIMSELF, not you, HIMSELF. He looks at his loss of faith, his loss of his first W, your affairs, his many jobs, his weight gain, and even the pain he is in as sure signs he has failed. And yes perhaps as a sign that his faith has failed him.

I have a suggestion for you to consider actually two suggestions.

1. You said you need to talk and he needs to decompress. Obvious solution, when he comes home give him time to decompress if you do this willingly he will notice. He will notice your change in attitude as you willingly do this. Then later tell him you would like to talk, perhaps in bed, perhaps before you go to bed. Keep it short at first, just the main things of your day, of your thoughts ect. Talk, solicit his opinions.


2. You mentioned his weight and how you don't find it attractive. One of the kindest things you could do for him is put him on a sensible diet. You take charge of his life by making sure he eats healthy. This next thing sounds cruel, but it occurs to me, the next time you catch him with little or no clothes on make him look in the mirror and have him tell you what he sees. You tell him that you won't allow him to be in a way that brings him pain, and you tell him you will alter how this home is run so that he become healthy and you are doing it because you love him. I want you to think about this very carefully.

What you should learn and think about while you consider my suggestions, is that you can acheive many things and receive many things if you will give and focus on goals that benefit BOTH OF YOU.

Your H wants to be loved of that I have no doubt. He wanted and wants you to love him, I have no doubt. What you have not figured out is that problem isn't what he feels about you right now, it is what he feels about himself.

What most betrayed spouses, BS's, have trouble with isn't loving the WS, wayward spouse, who wants to come back, it is with the damage done to their own self-image and their expectations of themselves. Your H views himself as a loser and you contributed to this as did many other things in life.

The one thing he needs to understand as well as you, God gave us "free will" or none of us would be sinners. Your H's life is not about his faith, but about choices made by him and those around him. His job is to do his best to rise above it and it is your job to do the same.

If you love this man act in a loving manner. I am not talking about feelings here, I am talking about love as an action. And frankly acting in a loving manner doesn't mean tip toeing around issues or ignoring your needs. It is about bringing balance and health to each of your lives and doing it with care and love.

What Harley offers on this site are the tools to make and execute plans that allow you to care for and love your H as well as make your marriage something you both draw strength from and enjoy.

Start looking outward more than you look inward and I think you will start to really see what many here are telling you. You are not a bad person Remain, you just have not had a perspective that will allow you to succeed.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

check this out! i'm hyper-excited about this--my husband filled...out...an E...N...Q. dude. words cannot express. i had this whole thing planned, i was going to write up talking points and have this big serious discussion with my H this wkend. i was so nervous.

well, H was in an amiable mood yesterday evening--plus me and the kids had done all this domestic stuff, waxed the floor and baked bread, AND i had a very promising conversation w/ a prospective client, so i was feeling on top of the world. we got to bantering back and sort a little--dare i say flirting?--and i just winged it. i told H there was a group we should look into called Wounded, Hurting, Inadequately Nurtured, but Ever-Recovering Survivors (check the acronym), waited for the look of horror, then said "no, just kidding, it's Marriage Builders, we've read this guy's books, check this out." got a laugh out of him and the relief was so intense that he took the ENQ from me like BRING IT ON. he whipped through it, and then WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT. (does anyone else think it's phrased the way it is so that you almost have to explain yourself? clever man, that Dr. Harley!)

so this is what i found out: my husband is NOT in fact a heartless automaton who lives to oppress me. he may actually be the best man alive today. turns out, also, that in addition to loving me (remember love is a choice), he actually rather likes me. and if i'd understood him a little better, i would have known it all along.

turns out also that my terror of expressing dissatisfaction with anything has had him baffled, like, SINCE WE GOT MARRIED. and that since the affair, especially, i've been so blank and "Stepford-spooky" (his term, and an apt one, even subtly flattering in a back-handed way, yes?) that he was worried about me. which totally broke my heart--i mean, i've been trying to tiptoe on the periphery of his existence and my primary goal has been to stay out of his way. like Jeeves, say. and he's been WORRIED about me?

who would have thought that something as formulaic as a little questionnaire would prompt a paradigm shift in your understanding of someone you've lived with for almost a decade?
i mean, y'all, my husband ROCKS. and i JUST FOUND OUT.

p.s. anyone note the marked change of tone from my drama-queen woe-is-me initial post?

your quote:
"The last month my WW has just been existing really. She watched DD4 and just plays facebook games. She sleeps alot. She was talking on the phone for hours before (mainly to OM) now there is nothing. No calls to anyone."

i'm sure everyone has assured you, but take it from another WW: it's NOT you. here's what happens: very few WWs will admit to themselves that they made a deliberate decision to cheat. we'll rationalize that we were vulnerable and let our emotions run away with us, etc etc--but we KNOW when we meet someone who presents a temptation, and we KNOW we're playing with fire by choosing to spend time with them.

WWs spend months before the affair deliberately hardening our hearts against our husbands. we deliberately cultivate feelings of bitterness, contempt, and self-pity. we MAKE ourselves immune to love from our husbands so that we can justify pursuing the affair.

if you're like my husband, even if your wife's behavior didn't change noticably before or during the affair, you probably sensed something amiss and tried to compensate by being extra-nice and loving...and she probably ignored or dismissed your gestures.

if my husband tried to engage me in conversation, i thought, "oh, NOW you want to talk? day late, dollar short, buddy." if he hugged me, "sure, see how far that'll get you."
if he complimented me, "whatever, he's just fulfilling his be-nice quota so he can ignore me for the rest of the day."

all this is leading somewhere, promise: when the A ends, we LOSE...OUR...MINDS. we see everything through a fog because we a)probably saw ourselves as basically moral people before the A and have such a hard time reconciling our actions to the way we view ourselves that we decide EVERYONE must be as awful as we are, deep-down.
b)coping with the sudden "realization" that everyone on the planet sucks as badly as we do shakes the foundations of reality. we want comfort and solace badly, but
c) don't feel that we deserve it because on some deep, true level, we know how appalling and self-focused it would be to cry over what WE have done to YOU.

hence the escapism. your wife is trying to numb herself with mindless activity, just like i did with my obsessive running and overwork. at one point i decided, insanely, to LEVEL A HILL on our property. i zoned out and moved 14 yards of dirt in the space of 6 hours. she's doing the same thing--trying to escape from HERSELF.

i don't know if she'll accept comfort from you or if she's still stuck trying to purposely reject any loving actions, but if you can bring yourself to hug her and tell her she's not a bad person and that you're sorry she feels this way, i guarantee you she will shed tears. if i were a betting woman i would put money up that she's feeling more remorse than she can express.

keep fighting the good fight, buddy! i'm praying for your family!

Good post, RN.

i hope so, Bliss--know i'm the last person in the world who should be doling out advice right now, but i'm at least in a position to give the betrayed some insight into their WSs' convoluted minds and offer some hope.

You, my dear, are uniquely qualified to give advice. Sapphire's another one. Don't be afraid to talk about your experience if it can help others.

RN, your post should belong to notable posts thread.

Thank you.

Cant argue with you there. He was always in our M. Since the beginning. He went away for a bit when he got M. Once OM's wife had an A on him the calls started again.

Alot of my friends think that in his mind he never even saw her as M. WW sent him back the engagement ring about 4 yrs ago. He sent it right back and said he didnt want it. She ended up selling it online and paying for part of a cruise with it.


Things I noticed. The phone calls, the text messages, I noticed her going on trips by herself (said she needed to find herself). I also noticed she never wanted to kiss (thought it was her mouth surgery making her uncomfortable) and on the rarity we had SF (like 5 times in 4 years) she immediatly turned away and went to sleep afterwards.

I DID try to reconnect. I went with her to see her Sister. I ended up buying her an Hermes scarf. All she said was that she didnt deserve it. I backed off from all forms of affection because she wasnt comfy with it.


Thats sounds about like it. She definatly does NOT like to deal with problems.


Ive trying to "love" her through the hard times. She still is VERY uncomfortable with me touching her. I try to comfort her by just being there for her. She knows how I feel. I encourage her every way possible. She interprets me touching her as needy so I try to avoid it.

She doesnt like me being around her much because she doesnt want to lead me on. She knows she has hurt me and she says she is trying to protect my feelings. She said there are nights she wishes I was there to hold her. She just is on such a roller coaster of emotions. Hate then love.


Thank you.


Im so glad you gave him a chance. Im glad you got alot out of it too. Did you give him your ENQ? How did that go?


Just beware that there is sometimes a newlywed period when you connect. Enjoy it but realize that there may be a hangover effect later on. Thats normal though. Just keep meeting EN and you will have a better M than you ever had.

amen to all of the above.

warning: this may bore everyone to tears. i'm posting what i found out about my H's Emotional needs--mainly because it helps to see them in print to get my mind around them. as always, i'd welcome comments or solutions, but won't be surprised or disappointed if everyone yawns and hits "next topic."

DOMESTIC SUPPORT: ok, let me preface: i grew up with housekeepers and parents who divided labor like this: "if i cook, you clean. if you make a mess, you clean it up. don't mess w/ other people's stuff." whereas H grew up with a mom who did EVERYTHING, plus worked, plus volunteered, and he and his dad and 4 siblings were the passive recipients.

in my family, "never mind, i'LL do it" was the deepest of insults because the unspoken subtext was: "...since you're so selfish and/or incompetent that you can't be trusted to do it correctly."

in his family, "never mind, i'll do it" was a truly well-meant gesture from a husband who recognized when his wife had her hands full.

so: while i've been priding myself on how well i've been managing the household, he's been disappointed. i've kind of naturally fallen into the habit of picking up after myself and teaching our kids to do the same, plus everyone's laundry and dishes and cooking and basic cleaning, and being really proud of myself if i, say, bake something. (extra mile, there, baking.) i don't mess with his papers or the stuff stored in his closet, because it's HIS. we just have different thresholds of what we consider neat. he says he feels that i'm being deliberately disrespectful and "making a statement" by not keeping house the way his mom did.

also, i've always assumed that it's common sense that if one spouse is working outside the home and the other isn't, whomever's at home should take care of the housework, and if both are working, it makes sense for each to take care of their own stuff. DUH, i thought. apparently not. it's ALWAYS going to be my job in his mind.

it also bothers him that the stuff i excel at around the house is typically outdoorsy "man's work"--moving dirt, mucking out the ditches, repairing things, stuff like that. he's your classic manly-man, and he says he hates to see me out there working like a field-hand because he feels like he should be doing all that--but that he can't do it physically.

he actually saw it as a slight that i took on the "manly" work--sort of a "since you can't do it, i guess i'll have to." i assured him that i do it because i practically NEED to, physically, and was sure the heck not trying to make a statement. i also agreed to never, ever mow the lawn--that can be his manly yard thing.

bottom line: he's feeling neglected because he irons his own clothes each morning, while i'm feeling like super-wife because i made him coffee. see what i mean? this is going to take some SEVERE getting-used-to.

also: isn't it bizarre how husbands and wives misread each other, even when both have good intentions?

husband's ENQ results continued: boredom warning still applies. except the quote about my tendency to randomly admire things:
"this counter-top is sooo flat. i mean, look at that, you can set your drink right on it and it's not going ANYWHERE. whoever trued this sucker up is a VIRTUOSO with a level..."

REC COMPANIONSHIP:
H says he hates it that the stuff i do for fun are things that he can no longer do physically, and that he wishes we COULD learn to swing-dance, or go rock-climbing, or join a hiking club, but that he just can't do it.
solution: fishing! we have ponds on our property, doesn't cost us anything except time and a babysitter. and he could teach me to shoot, that's perfect--i'm thinking out loud here--he's an expert marksman, so it would be an opportunity for him to feel super-manly, teach me something i don't know, and not hurt himself. perfect-o...

ATTRACTIVE SPOUSE:
H says that recently he sees a pretty wife as a liability--before the affair it was a point of pride (yeah, eat your heart out, buddy, she's going home with ME, ha ha!) but that now he's intensely aware that when HE thinks i'm looking particularly good, other men must be thinking the same thing. he assured me that he doesn't want me to go and get ugly or anything, he just needs time to get back to viewing me as unequivocally HIS.

ADMIRATION
H needs it big-time, and he says i've always said and done everything he's wanted, but that he feels like there's less and less to admire about him so it just makes him feel worse. he pointed out that saying, "wow, you're looking good, have you been doing crunches?" makes it obvious that i'm GRASPING AT STRAWS and that i need to QUIT BEING FAKE. he says he has wondered if i'm being sarcastic in the worst way. not my intention. ouch.
now's the time to mention that i have a habit of saying nice if inane stuff at random whenever a situation gets uncomfortable--one of my friends does an impression of me where's she's like,"this counter-top is sooo flat. i mean, look at that, you can set your drink right on it and it's not going anywhere. whoever trued this sucker up is a VIRTUOSO with a level..." and so on.
i've probably been a huge pain in the a55, in retrospect, complimenting H at random when he's not in the mindframe to hear it. i told him that from now on i'll think my words through, and if i do compliment him, he should trust that it's sincere.

Remains,

Please go read the post I made a few posts up and then consider what you have just posted. There are ways to address much of this.

JL

I think your really getting alot out of the ENQ.

Ive "grasped at the straws" before too. My WW can smell it too. I think she appreciates the gesture but knows its phony at the same time.

You could try complimenting him on his ideas. Like if he says something about the kids school stuff, "Thats a really good idea! Lets do that."

Ohh and shooting and fishing with him is great! you can also work your admiration in on that.

i thought i had replied to that post! i was all hyped up and sort of posted at random, but know this--your post re ego vs feelings was what helped me get everything in perspective. THANK YOU!!

i don't know if this across properly, but i'm deep into some RELIEF and GRATITUDE right about now. found out we're NOT fundamentally wrong for each other or any such self-serving BS; in fact, we LOVE each other, both choice-wise and infatuation-wise. we've both been trying to do right by each other from the git-go, no one's neglected anyone. we've just been misreading each other to a degree that boggles the mind.

initially, i was like, this ENQ is the most feelingsy document ever--how can i introduce it, how can it possible be effective, blah blah--for real, i'm convinced it's worded in such a way that it MUST be discussed. you can fill it out totally candidly and still feel the need to explain yourself further. again, kudos to Dr. H. i appreciate subtlety.

my H has told me before, approvingly, that i "think like a man", and he seems to intend it as a compliment, so i would have been equally inclined to dismiss the ENQ if i hadn't read enough threads of happy recoverees who have applied themselves faithfully to MB principles.

EVERYTHING IS RECONCILABLE!! HOORAY!

You know what I think when I read your posts, RN? That you and your H are still "courting" - that is, showing only your good sides to each other so you'll look desirable as a mate. Does that sound accurate, or am I off-base? Working with O&H may help you. Have you considered sitting down together and talking about things like: the dumbest thing you ever did in school; the most embarrassing; the most sinful, to you; the hardest....etc. Have you shown each other your SELF, pared down for scrutiny? Have you taken that chance?

REmain,

You know the odd thing?? Harley started all of this because in his counseling years ago he found many couples who were trying to meet one anothers needs and were splitting.

The reason they were splitting was that they were trying to meet needs as they saw them or thought their partner wanted them, rather than KNOWING what the needs were.

The lack of progress and the lack of getting needs met, led to resentment and eventually the end of a marriage where one or both of the partners were actually trying but were ineffective.

Oddly, I believe after all of these years that the reason you see so many men on this site is that is appeals to a male way of thinking. Not to say that it does not appeal to women as well. But, men like plans, they like cause and effect, and they like the organization.

I will say that terms like "love bank" and "love busters" turned me off when I first got here as they seem awfully "touchy feelly" to me. But, the fact that behavior is not random and that WS's and BS's say pretty much the same thing over and over, strongly suggests that Harley's organization is very effective and is very effective in addressing relationship issues.

This stuff is far more subtle than most realize and it is very powerful.

I wish you and your H the best.

JL

oh, we're still totally courting. at least i am. i've always had this idea that when you start caring less about how you appear to your spouse, you start caring a little less in general. not that i've been this perfect wife, not by any stretch, but i still have the newlywed's fear of disapproval. like my next action could be the dealbreaker.

rationally i know it's essential to KNOW each other if we're ever going to make each other happy, but it's so hard. i dread seeing disgust or impatience or contempt on his face. what's even worse, though, is this exaggerated patient tolerance, like he's summoning every ounce of strength to put up with me.

we just need to work through it, i guess. he's pragmatic, i'm pragmatic, the program is pragmatic. i'm sure if we follow it we'll bounce back. theoretically we should be a better couple than before.

yeah, i think the pragmatic approach is brilliant, and i noticed there are a fiar amount of men on here--MEN men, not your typical happy-marriage-program-scholars. before i found this forum, i just googled "recovering from infidelity" or something along those lines, and most of the sites i found featured either bitter wives justifying their affairs to one another, or complacent wives condemning each other for their husbands' affairs.

i'm trying to read up on every available resource on this site and act on all of it (strictly ACT on it, minus the terminology, till H is totally onboard.) i don't believe it's too late for anyone if they want to make it work.

What if my husband doesn't believe in romantic love? can it still happen or are we just going to wind up as really good friends and roomates?

recon, i had to track down your past posts to get a feel for your background--i'm so sorry about your situation and i hope it's improving, or better yet, HAS improved.

thank YOU, sir.

Remain,

You said

Romantic love??? Oh man! Ok, let's take this from the top. First do you recall your marriage vows? Of course you do. Do you recall promising to love, through sickness and health, good time and bad?? You probably do. Your H made the same vows right?

Ok, here is the deal. How can anyone promise to "feel or be" " IN LOVE for a life time? Our feelings change all of the time. We cannot make that promise. What we can promise is to "LOVE" our spouse. But, here the word is a VERB, an action, something we do whether we feel like it or not.

The love I am talking about and the love you promised in your vows is not a Hollywood/novel/mag "romantic" love. Nope. The love you are promising is a deep abidding love, that is grounded in your commitment to act/be "loving" to your man. You control it, you do it, and you don't wait until he deserves it.

Ever wonder why people celebrate long marriages? Ever wonder what is so special. It is not the romance they are celebrating, it is the years of commited love on both of their parts. It is knowing that during many times in each of their lives there were probably better fits to each of them with someone else, but they held true, they promised to quit looking and they promised to love and they had done it. Further, they were the recepients of this love. It showed itself in many ways, often little, rarely grand.

A nice meal, a gentle thank you, doing tasks and listening. Touching, and helping one another through the rough spots of life.

If you want to share your life with your H don't look for romance, although that is nice. Look for LOVE of the deep kind. Look for love that is there through thick and thin. Look for love in the common things and the quiet things. And give in the same measure to your H the love that you have.

The media of today, has little concept of what Harley is telling folks on this site. If you finally realize that you are happy with yourself or on the path to address things you need to address, then you will be more able to give the love you promised, but more importantly able to recieve the love you are given.

Remains, there is not a single thing on Harley's list of NEEDS that you truly need to survive, not a one. Those lists and the ENQ are for each of you to realize how to show and receive love so that your partner recognizes it. Your H does not have to be romantic. What he has to do is love you. That is all he needs to know is that you need and require the "act" of love, not the superficial trappings that are often confused with love.

I will also tell you that men are often not good at 'romantic' love, but that does not mean they are not good at the act of love. You and he need to recognize this and discuss it. If you like flowers in your house get them, don't wait for him to buy they or remember to buy them. If you need to be held when you are down, or need to be intimate, or just need to feel close to a human, tell him, let him know. Most of us guys love the feel of a woman in our arms especially one we love.

ARe you seeing what I am on you about. You have "expectations" about love that are not real. Expectations lead to resentment, and as the saying goes

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I fully understand the scriptural concept of love as an action and a choice rather than a feeling. i was familiar with the concept of the "honeymoon phase" and KNEW that the infatuation would eventually wear off and be replaced with something deeper and truer. i'm not a disillusioned wife moping around the house wishing for flowers.

fact is, H and i treat each other with consideration and kindness (aside from my affair). we're civil even when we're angry. we don't argue. we don't have a problem with conflict--it's not that we can't get along. i resigned myself long ago to an amicable partnership.

Dr. Harley's books, etc., are the FIRST i've come across that PROMOTE romantic love, that encourage couples to expect more from a marriage than an absence of conflict. in the absence of romantic love, it would be nothing more than a very efficient program of behavior modification designed to generate approval and avoid disapproval. i sincerely hope he's right and that if we follow his guidelines we can CREATE romantic love, because otherwise it comes down to something like this:
"i find your behavior satisfactory. TRUE/FALSE. you fulfill your obligations adequately. TRUE/FALSE."
THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING UNTIL NOW. even people in arranged marriages can cultivate a fondness for each other based on mutual respect and considerate behavior. why can't we? we already LOVE each other in the technical sense, that we PERFORM LOVING ACTIONS. i want to be infatuated with my husband. i want him to fall in love with me. i don't just want to fulfill his requirements, i want to make him HAPPY. i don't want him to go through the motions of meeting my needs, i want him to ENJOY me.

i have carefully schooled myself against disillusionment since day one of our marriage. i know infatuation doesn't last. but i live for it. why can't we have both? on one hand there's obligation and self-sacrifice and obedience and submission, but on the other hand you've got the Song of Solomon. doesn't God want us to take JOY in one another? WE DON'T. I WANT US TO. can it happen?

Remain,

Interesting questions you are asking. You seem that the "act" of loving is mechanical and not romantic. This is not a binary situation, it is a flowing changing situation. Harley's approach can build romantic love, but it MUST be based on the willingness of both of you to love (as in the verb to love).

I wrote to you because expectations often lead to resentment and you seem to have expectations of romance that will not be available to you on a full time basis. There are things like brain chemistry and real life that get in the way.

But, I must say you still think that excercising free will and determination to love is "not romantic". You said

You seem to be confusing being "friends" with loving someone. As you said even people in arranged marriages cultivate fondness and respect for one another. IN fact people in arranged remain married at a much higher rate than most in the US do. The art of this is being loving toward your spouse and having your spouse appreciate what you are doing as well as respecting what you are doing.

I will leave you with a quote that seems to summarize what you feel

You will find that the more you love your H the more you will feel attached to him. The same applies to you. If you read here very long you will hear a very common theme.

"I don't know how the affair started. He and were just talking about his problems with his W and family and I was just offering advice and gradually my feelings for him just got stronger and stronger, and then I was in love with him."

The act of giving often leads to love. Whereas most people think that the act of receiving is the main way we fall in love.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

x

Remains,

You are a very young woman and I have been married longer than you or your H have been on this planet. It tell you this so that you understand my perspective. I read what you posted with horror. I am not a biblical scholar, but one thing I know is that the Bible instructs us (male and female) to become ONE when we marry.

In my mind that does not mean

There is a long thread started and mostly contributed to by Mortar Man on marriage and the roles of men and women. I think you would find it very interesting and enlightening.

When you post here please understand that no one can really attack you, they can only offer their perspectives on things. You are free to and should evaluate this perspectives and see if they offer you something. There is no need for you to defend. The goal here is to build marriages.

I can see where you might pick up that I am offering advice similar to that which was offered to your H. I am not trying to curtail your sense of romance. What I would like you to see is that within the advice and plans that Harley offers is not only "romance" but something deeper, but it requires that both spouses actively contribute to the marriage. Further, while it can sound or seem mechanical to you, especially when viewed in the context of today's media, it is not.

It is far more subtle than that as is the institution of marriage. Today the focus seems to be on "equality" when in my mind the focus should be on "balance", weaknesses supported by strengths, and the couple becoming one.

It is my hope that as you read and master the MB material that you will see these things and hence my worry about the "romantic" point of view. It can cloud ones expectations. Romance is good, but a shared live both physically and emotionally is better. That is my perspective.

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I went and found Mortar Man's post on the roles of husband and Wife, it is religion based. It may or may not be what you are now heading toward but you may find it interesting. Just click on the bookmark Husband&W roles

JL, i appreciate your advice immensely, just for its sheer wisdom and correctness--hearing that you've been married forever makes your input even more valuable to me. you should add a line or two in your signature so everyone knows! your posts have considerable authority anyway, but i truly view you and many others on here as mentors. every bit of advice i've received has been good, but yours has been thoughtful and incisive as well.
i read the thread--well, 13 pages of it anyway--Mortarman is one of my new heroes. he not only broke down the original scripture in a way that's both biblically sound and accessible to the layman, he managed to overcome the harshness a lot of people perceive in the prescribed roles of husband and wife. King James doesn't mince words when it comes to how a wife should and should not behave, and it's easy for women to get offended by the tone. Mortarman also answered questions and elaborated graciously, even for folks (ARK, anyone?) who really didn't want to hear it.
i don't believe our MC's deliberately subverted God's word--i think they either had a rough day and didn't choose their words with care, or that my husband misinterpreted what they said and took it way too deeply to heart. keep in mind, i didn't hear this straight from them. i bear them no grudge. my husband has a way more solid foundation in scripture than i do--his family's been in the ministry for generations. i think their offhand warning scared him because he trusted them and he been deceived by his ex-wife. he believed they had seen something fundamentally untrustworthy in me, and started looking for it himself.
he got very cold and critical after that. then started wrestling with the decision to leave the ministry. then got deeply depressed--clinically so. it was like he was immune to joy--i exhausted everything in my make-your-husband-smile repertoire for 2 years and finally decided he just didn't like me anymore. i even talked myself into believing that HE must be having an affair. (no way, in retrospect.)
when he told me last week about the warning he got from these well-intentioned MCs, he also told me that their assessment of me was a deciding factor in his leaving the church. he's still bitter against them. i wish he had told me before.

next post will pertain directly on MB principles and impact of same on our marriage, promise!

Remain,

I am glad you got something good out of MM's thread. He is a very good man and he did an incredible job in dealing with his W's affair. I also thought he had good insight into the scripture. You said Isn't odd how folks pickup on one thing and miss another. Because within the King James version there is the admonition that I mentioned earlier, that husband and wife were to become one. Sort of at odds with the concept of a "power" struggle between men and women isn't it?

Now that you know what seems to have tipped your H over, what are your plans for rebuilding this marriage? I find it so sad that, I presume, well intentioned people had such a negative impact on your H, and consequently you and your marriage.

But the job at hand now is for you and your H to get on the same page and develop some plans to address the marriage and make it something that you both can draw joy and support from.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

ok, check this out--i have my H's ENQ results and i've been on a mission, but i've been skirting around giving him mine. still working up my nerve.
but for the past week, he's been AWESOME. not just considerate--he's always pretty considerate--but FUN. i'm not getting that labor-of-love, grim-obligation-but-i'm-toughing-it-out-because-it's-my-duty-as-your-husband vibe from him. it's like he's reading my mind...i mean, a lot of the stuff i want can't be quantified...here are a few notable examples of wonderful and off-the-wall things he's been doing--

1-we took a long drive and talked politics a few days ago. i LOVE to have serious, speculative conversations with him because it makes me proud that he sees me as smart enough to debate with; a worthy adversary, so to speak. and it fuels my admiration for him because he's a great conversationalist, clever, thinks on his feet, well-read, interesting, animated. we had fun.

Conversation is one of my biggest emotional needs and i've never been able to tell him that because...

2-he bought me a happy surprise: i'm addicted to an obscure brand of lethal, low-rent generic popsicles that i'm addicted to and that he detests. he brought home a big ol' box! that took some thought, too--they're hard to find, i'm the only one in the house (possibly on the planet) who will eat them...indulging someone's bizarre eccentricities isn't the kind of thing you do out of obligation. regarding someone's weird popsicle addiction as endearing and cute? sounds like puppy-love...

3-he's been hugging and kissing me when he goes to work and comes home and leaving me silly-a55 notes: we always make fun of couples who call each other cute names, so the notes are addressed to: Alligator Muffin. Monkey Princess. Crispy McRiblets. Sweet Pumpkin Wrangler.

Affection is important to me, but my attitude towards that was pretty much the same as re conversation--if you want to hug someone, you're going to hug them. i didn't feel like i could ask for it either, because i figured it would take time for him to WANT to express physical affection towards me. and silly notes? how do you ask for THAT?

4-he's been eating way smaller portions and lifting weights--and it shows already. also, if i change or improve my appearance in any way, i'm always eager to show it off and make sure he notices, but he's the opposite--i might say something like, "your shoulders are looking good, will you flex for me?" no way. he's always been anti-show-off. but he came to me all "notice anything different about me?" AWESOME!

here's the thing--the attractive-spouse deal is HUGE to me, but i've always felt like a shallow jerk for it. i thought about how i'd feel if he told me i needed to change some aspect of my appearance in order to fulfill HIS emotional needs. i'd do it, and i'd act cheerful, but i'd be thinking mean thoughts. so i've never even HINTED to him that he needs to get in shape, because he's keenly aware of it already. my thinking was, ok, if you KNOW, and you're unhappy about it, FIX IT. he's impeccably groomed, and he wears clothes really well, but i'm the only one who gets to see him naked, so i always figured he cared about his public appearance, but not about how he looked to ME. look--


5-suggested we do something fun this weekend...i said great, what did he have in mind? "oh, i don't know," he said; "i was thinking maybe we could go fishing or something."

funny you should mention fishing, because:

hmmmm....y'all see where this is going?

No need to skirt around your ENQ anymore since he already read it online.

Sometimes guys surprise you if they get a chance.

H and I had a great, great talk tues night--we stayed up all night. he told me he had read all my posts on here, both on this thread and everything else...at first he was really angry that i was being candid with strangers and evasive with him, but he also says he can understand totally why i wouldn't tell him some of the things i wanted from him.

he said i hurt his pride with some of my characterizations of him because i had been reading him wrong; he said some of the other stuff hurt because it was true and i had held my tongue and not told him; and some of it gave him hope because it showed him that i'm dead serious about making our marriage work. not just WORK work, we've got the well-oiled-machine thing down pat, but be truly happy together.

so...he's basically seen the inside of my head, at this point. i feel a little wierd about that, but also a deep sense of relief. so much for sparing his feelings, ouch--he knows everything i've been trying to hide from him. and he loves me anyway, plus understands me a heck of a lot better.

and you know what? he told me pointedly that he hadn't been trying to check up on me, and that he hoped i wasn't mad. say WHAAAT??? i told him i always assumed he was still checking up on me and that he had every right to do so, forever, any time he was curious or suspicious or just felt like looking. and THEN he told me he wouldn't read my posts anymore because he wanted me to be able to speak freely and anonymously on here and not worry about what he was going to think.

that's demonstrating a lot of trust.

LMAO! true, true! i was getting to that!

Remain,

I am going to tell you a true story. Many years ago a woman came to this site. She was ready to leave her H because �he did not care�, �never bought her gifts, not birthday or even Christmas� and all he did was work. So I and others started talking to her and after a few weeks a few things came to light.

It seems that he had given her gifts but she did not like them and took them back to the store. It seems she was very very picky about what she wore, had in the house, etc. Apparently, he had picked up on this and simply stopped giving her gifts. It also turned out that he was very successful and his company consumed a lot of his time. She had the house she wanted, drove the car she wanted, the kids went to the school she wanted them to go to. In short he supported her but the cost was he was very busy.

So to make a long story somewhat shorter we addressed her issue of not receiving gifts. We suggested that she make a list of the things she would like for her birthday, which was coming up. She rebelled saying it wasn�t a �gift� if she had to tell him what she wanted. We responded that given that she was very picky, given that he never left work when the stores were open, and that he was not a shopper, she need to consider making this list. Further we pointed out if she made a lengthy list it would still be a surprise gift, as she would not know which one he chose, but she would get something she liked.

After much debate back and forth she agreed to do this. She composed her list and presented it to him a few weeks before her birthday. Her birthday came and we did not hear from her. The next week we did. He had NOT done what she thought. He had not selected a gift from the list.

Instead he had bought her EVERYTHING on the list. He was so happy to buy her something she wanted, would use, and not return, that he bought the whole thing. In fact, he stated he had a ball getting the gifts because he always wanted her happy he just did not know what to do, and now he did. She was shocked�and as she thought about it she was very pleased. He had indeed surprised her. She was happy, and he was happy.

My message to you is to consider telling your H when you need a hug, it will help him to read you better in the future, it will help him to know he is NOT intruding into your space, and it will allow him to show you that he cares/loves you. You need conversation, tell him. You in essence have done this by him reading your threads and see how that worked out????

Remains have you figured out he doesn�t want to hurt you or lose you. He just doesn�t know how to love you as you like. If you tell him, my guess he will love you AND he will be much happier as well.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

RN, I wanted to answer your questions about what happens at the beginning of PLan B. You asked whether the WS would KNOW about the impending Plan B. In MY case, my WH doesn't even know about Marriage Builders and SAA. He has NO CLUE about DrH. I think it is the case in MOST of the stichs. Usually, the BS finds this site after desperation and searching for something to save their marriage. There are times when the WS knows about MB and I often wonder how that plays out in those sitchs. How does it work when your WS KNOWS that you are working a Plan A and that you WILL go into Plan B?

So, to answer your question, the BS DOESN'T tell the WS that there is an end date to Plan A, because the WS would have NO CLUE what the BS meant. Plan A-meeting all of your WSs important ENs and avoid LBs. Plan B-remove yourself from the drama and abuse to protect your LB balance. Also, wait out the end of the affair and remove yourself from the cake eating equation of the wayward.

That's a SUMMARY. If you have any more questions about the plans, ASK.

thanks a million, scotland--i'm one of those people who can grasp minute subtleties and overlook the big picture entirely. i just found this site like 2 weeks ago, wayyy after ending my affair, so H and i didn't have the benefit of any plan at all during our "rebuilding effort", let alone a solid MB perspective.

makes sense now...after all, when there's an externally imposed ultimatum in play, especially during an inherently foggy state, WS could grudgingly agree to stay (to which i would say, if i were a BS, "don't do me any favors, Fogmeister") and then spend the rest of their respective lives sulking and feeling rebellious and entitled.

personally, i used Plan Grovel, and Plan Kiss-A55 Compulsively, and Plan Go-Through-The-Motions.

if i hadn't found MB, we would still be living in a wary, tense state of truce. thanks again, Scotty!

let me preface: my husband has no details re my affair, and that's the way he wants it. it occurred to me that there are LOTS of happy things in my life that i had learned to associate w/ OM--after reading Musings from Mark and Managing Memories, i've realized that i need to take a lot of that stuff back. these are things i enjoyed with my husband BEFORE the affair, mind you--anything that i associate only with OM, i'm just dismissing altogether.

here's what i'm taking back ans will forever forward associate with my HUSBAND:
The Doors. The Cars. The Clash. The Ramones.
Boats, and everything associated with them: fiberglass, epoxy resin, sunscreen, panama hats, Sperry Topsiders.
Microbrews.
Chocolate labs.
Surfing.
Quentin Tarantino and Clint Eastwood movies.
Architectural Digest.
Ken Kesey.
Kissing.
Chess.
Pranks.

Things I will forever view in a negative light and will not miss at all because they're strictly OM's territory:
Tommy Bahama cologne (no great loss there anyway.)
excessive, high-school-girl grade vanity and high-maintenance grooming rituals in men. ewww.
pretentious affectations like saying "entree" when you mean "dinner."
name-dropping.
bragging to make up for your shortcomings.

here's my thinking: i can't make OM the bad guy in my mind, because that would make me less responsible for my affair. what i CAN do is associate him with everything i find tacky, cheap, and pitiable. it's a start.

RN,

I said I would reply to you here, so here I am...

I don't know if putting together a list is the way to go about this or not, but it might work for you.

The whole idea with the emotional memory management thing is that we can't control what we feel but we can control what we think. So whenever we begin to think about something that will lead us to a place where we know the emotions will not be the best for us then we have the ability to actively decide to think about something else entirely.

I'm assuming your goal in this is to remove the good memories related to OM and that I think is a laudable exercise, I'm just not certain that it can be pulled off by itself without some active re-association of memories with your husband and this might require his participation.

You see, it was such an exercise you likely used at the beginning of your affair. You probably compared the good things you could think of about OM (many of them actually purely fanciful and concocted by your own mind) against all the negative thoughts about your husband. It was of course an unfair comparison in which you focused on all the good feelings associated with OM while digging into the real life everyday problems that come with being in a marriage for a while in order to identify and enumerate the negative responses you had to various incidents with your husband.

When we are dating or having any kind of relationship with someone that is temporary or intermittent we have an easy time keeping the Love Bank balance going in an upward direction. It is easy to do because we are only with each other when at our best and when we are enjoying ourselves the most.

But once we settle into a daily, hour by hour, marriage or committed relationship we begin to spend all of our time together and that means that we have many more opportunities to have negative emotional responses when we are together. These negative emotional responses don't even have to be caused by our spouse for them to take a toll on their balance in our Love Bank. This is why failing to meet ENs becomes a serious problem in a long term relationship. If we are with each other when we have enough negative emotional responses then we begin to lose love units and before long we have fallen out of love.

In your affair, you probably only had limited time with OM, again assuming this without actually reading every post you have made here. So the time you spent together was probably just about all enjoyable to you. This is going to make it very difficult to remove the positive memories because any positive memory actually reinforces the emotional content of those memories.

Now if you can find enough negative things to associate with OM and thus lose enough emotional content that is positive, replacing it with negative, then things you associate with OM might begin to take on negative emotional characteristics as well, but unless OM is a negative memory in and of himself, or unless you can actually turn him into someone you pretty much loath, anything you associate with him will still be positive and thus make it more difficult for you to break the cycle of triggering into positive emotional responses to thoughts of OM or the things that surround him in your mind.

Ultimately you need to have no emotional response to him at all, but anything that was a good memory from your time with him will only become a less favorable response if you can replace the feelings with something negative that is as strongly related to OM and his memory.

At the same time, begin to shift any positive feelings to thoughts of your husband. So if you find yourself having a good emotional response you should find a way to associate that feeling with your husband. Eventually those things that trigger good emotions will begin to be associated with him naturally but you also need to make OM begin to hold nothing good in the way of emotional responses. So when triggered to a good memory, never allow yourself to think of OM in any way and in fact the more negative things you can associate with him the less likely you are to find yourself missing him or thinking of him fondly.

At least I think that's the deal in theory; your mileage may vary...

Mark

i love Sperry's. They are just so expensive. They also dont dry out very well so they start to smell.


I know on the Wayward mind thread alot of responses say its easier to get through withdrawal if you the A ended on a bad note.

I dont know if you can produce that feeling artificially after the fact or if even thinking about it is counter productive. I think maybe its just a time thing. I think now that your DH is on the MB train its going to be alot easier.

Triggers are so weird and subjective--after the A, certain things were so inextricably linked in my mind to OM that i couldn't feel negative towards HIM w/out feeling negative towards everything i associated w/ him. and i HAD to learn to hate him before i could forget him altogether.

instead of getting all wistful and misty-eyed when confronted w/ these triggers, i would get furious--but that's SILLY.
"Stupid Sperry Topsiders! people who wear them are JERKS! YAHHHH!"
"You're a TEASE, Sharona! I'm NEVER gonna give you some tiiiime, Sharona!"
"Hey mister--your dog SUCKS!"
"Chess is for DUMMIES!"
See how silly?

ok, so it worked. i no longer miss OM or think about him, he's a non-entity. but i realized that unless i'm prepared to go through life being angry at the things i used to enjoy, i need to take 'em back. why should adultery get to have a theme song? "These deck shoes brought to you by Sperry, official sponsors of adultery." by allowing certain things to trigger ANY emotional reaction, that's kind of like taking them from me and H and giving them to OM. Screw that. He doesn't get to keep any of the fun stuff.

DONE!!

I know on the Wayward mind thread alot of responses say its easier to get through withdrawal if you the A ended on a bad note.

I dont know if you can produce that feeling artificially after the fact or if even thinking about it is counter productive. I think maybe its just a time thing. I think now that your DH is on the MB train its going to be alot easier. [/quote]

true that, YEG. i don't need to hate OM because that would require thinking about him. i need to hate ADULTERY in general.

i was reading Dr. H's article on recreational companionship, about how important it is for couples to spend time together when they're happiest, and i'm applying it avidly.

Thank you, Mark, for your excellent clarification. i should have specified, what i'm doing is turning negative subjective triggers that were strongly linked w/ OM (that's why they're negative) into neutral objects linked w/ no one. so that i can ALLOW them to become mine and my H's again, w/ no residual memories or emotions except the new, fun associations my H and i attach to them.

like i said to YEG above, why should adultery get a theme song?

I hear a touch of professor or lecturer in your written tone. I won't speculate, but i certainly hope i'm right. we're fortunate to have you on this forum. thanks again.

RN,

I'm just a radio and cell phone salesman and service tech and a long time Sunday school teacher...

And a guy who knows this stuff works because I used it to save my own marriage.

I read a bit, too.

Mark

you know, i read your troubleshooting guide--in fact i printed it out in case H cared to take a look--and i always assumed the repair vs. replacement bit and the references to the client, etc, were part of a really determined analogy. i'm often great w/ nuance and oblivious to stuff that's spelled out. although, to my credit, tech writer was my third guess re profession.

also--it's pretty evident that you "read a bit." me too. Huxley's good w/ laymans' breakdowns of mastering one's memories and altering them to suit one's purpose, and "Toscanini's Fumble" (forget who wrote it) is KILLER re the mind in general.

thanks again. promise i'll get MB-relevant on next post. =)

OK, everyone, i've been away for a few days--when things are going well, i tend to just enjoy it and don't feel compelled to post about it. it's the stuff i worry about that i tend to put in writing.

update--awesome father's day; i let my girls raid my fancy-stuff stash (i did a brief stint as a jeweler, so my fancy stuff ROCKS) and they glued all kinds of chains and crystals and sparkly stuff all over their cards--the cards weighed about 2 pounds each. 7-year-old's featured daddy horses w/ their colts, 4-year-old's featured daddy lions w/ their cubs. heart-rending, dude. i let them do their thing--he's THEIR daddy, after all, so everything is very sentimental and endearingly misspelled and very much from the heart. our finances have always been feast-or-famine and right now we're in famine mode--this too will pass--but we made him a flippin' ENORMOUS basket full of little fun stuff. i made him a really silly sculpture of a smiling golden whale. would i have liked to get him an e-book-reader instead? you bet. and when the opportunity presents itself, i shall.

at any rate, things have been good in general--we're still technically in an amicable state of truce, but it's more amicable than usual, let's say. we're a little less civil and a little more truly friendly. even flirty, sometimes.

H is NOT on board w/ MB as i had originally implied. he was curious, that's all. making sure i wasn't joining something stupid. (recall my post re W.H.I.N.E.R.S.? that's his opinion of programs. i deleted my post re MCs because it was so amgry it was borderline blame-shifting. suffice it to say, he doesn't trust MCs.) He still has a lot of stuff to deal w/ re MCs and programs and whatnot, so i'm trying to be put the principles in action reallllly obliquely so he doesn't get a programmy-type vibe.

what's the reverse of Plan A? is there an MB plan for winning back the betrayed spouse? actually, no, that's not really accurate--neither of us is going anywhere. it's not so much about winning-back as it is about winning, PERIOD. divorce is nowhere in sight. i think H feels pretty much the same towards me as pre-affair, w/ some lapses, of course--but i think we can do a heck of a lot better. we're basically courting again, and i want to do it right this time.

I know BSs are advised to forgo all relationship talk during Plan A...how does that apply to WSs? when can we discuss our marriage w/out it being perceived as a judgement on H's track-record up til now and a demand for change?

I AM AFRAID TO MAKE H TALK ABOUT THIS. are there any ACTIONS i can undertake that will effect the same changes? not trying to use covert mind-control, here, but i can tell you for a STONE FACT that discussion of how we can make our marraige better is going to be read by H as criticism, and it's going to incite righteous indignation, and it's going to end in tears.

First your not in Plan A. Thats a limited time situation for the BS to meet all the needs the WS will allow them to leave a positive impresion going into a PB situation. So it doesnt apply here.

Your in recovery. Its the hard part. PA is easy if you dont have expectations. Recovery isnt from what id imagine.

Problem is that BS get to drive the recovery bus. You lost that right. you can suggest ideas to him but you move at his pace when he is ready. You cant force him just like BS cant force a WS to become a BUYER in the relationship.

Id tell him what needs he isnt meeting and give him a way to meet those needs. Say I like it when you do XXX.

Your biggest ally here is time. You have only been doing this a comparably short time. Just meet whatever needs he allows you and offer the ones he wont. Let this sink in for a few months and reaccess where you are. Recovery is a long process.

Time is your friend. Do your best at taking care of him. See what he does and revise the plan.

new slogan: forget diamonds, "recovery is forever." well, let me be fair, 2 years is hardly forever.

it would be easier if he were running the show. i'm still in that mindset where i don't feel like i'll ever be able to ask for anything again. still doing a bit of tip-toeing and a55-kissing, as is totally warranted.

Time is our friend, though--i had to read your post twice to get that, and that's the bottom line. time is our friend, there's no deadline. we're not in dire straits. we're headed in the right direction--things can only get better. i can break it down day by day.

time is our friend. i like that.[i][/i]

Remains,

Instead of talking about the relationship, take to the third person. Talk about marriage in general, how he sees things, use articles in the papers, and you can always ask for his help in understanding something. Us guys love to solve problems and help a Damsal in distress.

You are correct that you don't want his defenses coming up, but there are many ways to speak with him without it sounding like you are being critical. You do need to be talking with him, but sometimes talk in the abstract, sometimes us other peoples stories, and sometimes just tell him how you feel.

You need to get over this idea that because you are a WS actually you are sounding more and more like a former wayward Wife, FWW, that you cannot ask things of him or speak your mind with him. You are the one that is going be married to him and that means you BOTH need to be happy.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you, JL! I didn't reply to either of your recent posts, the one re gifts or the one on my sex-after-the-affair thread--you always give me a lot to think about, and little to argue with. your posts deserve a better reply than a simple "amen to that!" but truly, that about sums it up.

you're absolutely right about making it abstract--we have really, really good discussions and friendly debates about politics, work situations, stuff like that. we're both problem-solvers, strategizers, and FIXERS. and on the converse, we've both always been really shy and awkward discussing our own situation.

here's where we are right now:

ok, so i've been on top of my game re meeting his ENs now that i know what they really are, and it's FUN to see it work...it's nice to feel not just adequate but appreciated. to not just feel that i probably measure up to other wives in general, but to KNOW that i'm being the best possible wife for my husband. he doesn't have my ENQ, and that's fine, no hurry--because as his attitude changes and he gets happier and more relaxed, he's more open, it's no big deal to say, "hey, want to come hang out on the patio and talk about random nonsense after the girls are in bed?" (conversation's a big thing for me.) and trusting that my husband loves me makes it less scary to disagree or ask for things. and of course, it's easier to ask for a one-time favor than a behavioral overhaul.

the hard part is going to be LB stuff. we'll get there.

thanks again, JL!

i need to change the name of this post. right now it might as well be, "Cue Violins for Sad Adulteress". anyone know how to change the title? I'm thinking something more perky. Fewer violins.

edited

Hey RN, I hate to tell you, but you and your H are very well part of two different generations.

Are you familiar with the theories in the book The Fourth Turning? Strauss and Howe discuss how people born during certain time periods are part of distinct generations, with common attitudes and behaviors. Your H would fall under the "13th Generation" in their reckoning, more commonly known as Gen X, while you would be what they consider a "Millenial", although you fall under the transition period for their societal shift (1984).

Quite frankly, between attitudes and family situations, my DW and I have a similar break, with me as a "Boomer" (1959) and her as a "13th" (1961) -- and our age difference is only 19 months!

We also have other major differences. I would characterize myself as an academic-type, while she is street-smart and practical. On many things, I have trouble finding my butt with both hands, a map, and a flashlight. Without her, I would be in real trouble in the real world. But I have other strengths that compliment the things she's not so good at, so we match up well. But like your H, I have a tendency to lecture. That doesn't go over very well, to put it mildly. I have to temper my tendencies to do that. You may want to let him know that his style isn't working very well for you. I mean, you should be getting class credit for listening to him spiel, right?

As for the thinking out loud, join the club. That's me, all the way. Sometimes you say things that, when you hear them you say "That's utter crap. No, that's NOT what I think." If your spouse doesn't understand that's how you process things, that can lead to all sorts of what the website Fark describes as "hilarity ensues." (That goes double for work when you're reasoning things out around your boss. Trust me on this one.)

i actually find his lecturing habit sort of endearing. even if it's stuff i already know, he gets so earnest and intense that i enjoy seeing him in action. i could listen to him lecture on FACTS all day.

what i DON'T enjoy--in fact, what i dislike so intensely that i had to delete my previous post re disrespectful judgements (edit reason: blind fury, dishonorable ranting)--what i DON'T enjoy is being lectured about my own subjective goals, hopes, dreams, expectations, wants, etc. and having it explained to me in great detail why i'm so sadly deluded for hoping, dreaming, wanting, et cetera.

i can counter condescension on an academic level. i can't stand having H pointedly condescend to me when we're talking about what we want from each other and from our marriage. it would be so easy to flip the script and dismiss his desire for, say, domestic support: "well, of course you would feel like that's a valid emotional need, honey. given your upbringing, and all. but it isn't, and here's why:" but i DON'T. I CLEAN THE GOSHDARNED HOUSE BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO HIM. how do i know it's important to him? because he told me so. do i punch holes in his request and try to find reasons why it's not really important to him and he just thinks it is? no. because it would be patronizing, dismissive, and it would prove me unworthy of his confidence.

my primary worry here? my greatest need is for admiration--as far as feeling respected, appreciated, and VALUED. logic tells us that if one needs to feel admired, one should just be more admirable. ouch.

H has dismissed POJA as absurd and unworkable.

he says we don't have 15 hours a week to spare for UA.

he says my need for admiration is already being more than adequately fulfilled: doesn't he make a point of telling me when the house looks nice, or that dinner's great? well, yes, he does. i've always thought of that as a courtesy--it's COURTEOUS to acknowledge someone when they do something that pleases you. it doesn't make me feel valued, it makes me feel acknowledged. but like i said in my previous post...i guess i just need to be more admirable.

guys...i still feel horribly, dangerously, selfishly, irrationally entitled. does it show? on the pro side, my newfound hatred of adultery and my strict boundaries means that i'm certainly never going to cheat again, ever.

i'm just having a really hard time feeling good about my husband right now.

test

Okay, I am sorry but I forget. When was DDay for your BH? Is he willing to talk to the coaching center or to read any of the material? Does he WANT to recover the marriage?

D-Day was November of 08. H is anti-counseling, anti-program, anti-interference of any type. he's ok with me studying up, but he's a little wary. his attitude towards my studies re MB can be described as tolerant.

Scotland, it seems like we're as well off as we were before my affair. we're courteous and considerate to one another. we don't fight, we don't disagree in a disrespectful fashion. in fact, it's only recently that i learned to disagree at all. fact is, though, i'm not happy with that at all. can we sustain it indefinitely? yes. will i feel lonely in my own house? yes.

we're both firmly committed to STAYING MARRIED, but we have radically different ideas about what we want from a marriage. i wonder if my expectations are at all realistic, and i wonder how i can make him see how much certain things mean to me. i can only be so emphatic.

i'll expound further tomorrow--i've been thinking. thanks, scotland, and good evening.

Im sorry its rough. You cant push a rope though. Your going to have to find some way to reach him. I wish I knew that answer.



i dont think you sound entitled. You sound frustrated. Your needs arent being met. You are working in the system though. I think everyone has the right to a happy M. What people dont have the right to is if they get bored to go outside the M to meet their needs.

sorry for the pitiful tone of recent posts-you may know by now that i tend to post grievances and worries, then disappear for days at a time when things are going well. let me clarify my position.

i've embarked on a one-sided campaign to be the BEST wife possible, according to his ENs, plus making sure i'm covering the whole spectrum of ENs to see if he responds favorably to something he didn't specifically identify. imagine super-Plan A with an indefinite time-frame: many, many carrots and an absence of sticks. plus no relationship talk unless i can work it in sideways, offhand. i'm home for the summer with the girls, so i've been an over-the-top good SAHM: i mean, i'm refinishing furniture, baking bread twice a week, making homemade play-dough for the kids...i'm proud of myself because the domestic stuff is not my natural forte, and i really do find it satisfying because it makes him happy. when he comes home from work, i've got makeup on, the house is neat, and dinner's ready.

the good news is, my husband has been VERY receptive.

he's actively appreciative
(before i was so starved for affirmation i was constantly like, "does my hair look ok?...is dinner alright?...can i get you anything?...anything i can do?")
he's much happier and more upbeat in general
(he's been depressed and sullen and weary for 4 years now, and it's oppressive to be around someone who derives no comfort from your presence and who gives every appearance of wishing you would go away)
he's spending more time with me and the kids
(before i was always herding the girls out of his way: "let's let daddy rest, he's had a long day.")
talking to me more
(LOOOOVE to talk. before a conversation would go like this: "how was your day?" "fine." "do anything interesting?" "not really." "how did that presentation go?" "quite well, thanks.")
we're having good sex
(which was such a huge deal even a few weeks ago i started a whole thread about it)

in short, we're a very happy family. we get along admirably, have a good time with the kids. looking at the situation impartially, i'd have to say that we're probably happier than we've ever been SINCE WE'VE BEEN MARRIED. that includes before the affair. so, everything should be great, right?

well...i couldn't put my finger on what was missing. i thought maybe it was just residual fog on my part, or lingering reservations on his part. but it seems like he's super-satisfied, which is awesome. my Giver is having a field day. H is being really nice. i don't have anything in particular to be dissatisfied about. i need to think before i post what i think my problem is.

here's what's missing: when i originally filled out my own ENQ, i felt like i craved affection and conversation, primarily, followed by conversation, SF, and attractiveness. (thankfully, i can take family commitment and honesty pretty much for granted. he's an extremely solid family man.) i just realized that H IS QUITE affectionate, he's ALWAYS been affectionate--he hugs and kisses me, extends me little courtesies like bringing me coffee, fluffing my pillow when i lie down, doing nice little things--being totally honest with myself, i get all the affection i need. something was lacking elsewhere that made me feel unloved.

i surprised myself. I NEED ADMIRATION. it never occurred to me before, but you know why? because if you view emotional adultery as seeking to fulfill your emotional needs outside of your marriage...i've basically been in a great big emotional affair with the entire world ever since we got married. i've always gotten all my admiration needs taken care of at work or with friends. i feel INHERENTLY valued, respected, and appreciated in other relationships. then when i come home, i've gotten all that out of my system so i don't feel any lack and i can concentrate on what HE needs. and what has given me an opportunity to get all that admiration from everyone else on the planet? recreational companionship. spending time together doing fun stuff, relaxing, being yourself, talking. and what does one need in order to pursue fun stuff? money. do we make enough? no. when we did, it's because i was earning more than him and had a substantial chunk of my own in the bank (in OUR names, of course). and did he feel like his role as primary breadwinner had been usurped, and did he get unpleasant and grudging? yes. did that make us want to spend more time together? no. our newly disposable income enabled to me to pursue independent behavior AND console myself with the rationalization that it was his money too and he had the freedom to whatever he wanted with it. my career at the time was a really good one. in fact, it's one that H wanted. i didn't know that when i took it. my career required lots of networking, which got me utterly drunk with admiration, which further fueled my entitlement, and enabled me--REQUIRED me--to hang around with other outgoing, chatty people with common goals, interests, and experiences.

i'm treating this forum like a flippin diary right now. i'm just working out for myself what i'm anxious about. ok: after my affair (which was a one-night stand, by the way, after a 1.5 year way-too-close friendship) after my affair i turned into a total recluse. i didn't want friends, i didn't want to talk, i didn't want to have fun--i wanted to disappear. i put all my effort into being a technically good wife, which i could do distractedly but without resentment because i HAD no emotional needs. maybe i was unconsciously trying to break my addiction to admiration??? by not associating with anyone at all except on the most superficial level, maybe i was denying myself the opportunity to be admired? speculation.

anyway, me staying home w/ the kids this summer has ensured that H is the SOLE breadwinner, it's forced me to break my habit of independent behavior, and it's given me the chance to focus on the domestic support stuff that he values so highly. problem is, i have to go back to work when summer's over.

my internal boundaries are set on Strictly Business, and i find the idea of ever again committing adultery, be it physical or emotional, positively repugnant. i'm not worried about myself in that regard, because i'm so guarded and wary about it.

my problem is...i THRIVE on admiration. i'm GOING to get admiration by default when i go back to work. and we're going to fall right back into the dynamic of get-your-needs-met-elsewhere-so-you-don't-act-needy-towards-your-husband.

i told my husband a few nights ago, when the subject came up ("you still doing any reading on that MB website? i'm glad you're learning so much."), that i'd realized that admiration is my thing, and that i'd been hesitant to tell him because, as i hastened to assure him, he's great with compliments and thank-you's, but i haven't felt particularly VALUED by him, and i felt silly telling him because as i said before, that's not an instance where it requires a change in BEHAVIOR on his part, it would mean changing his FEELINGS towards me, and that's MY responsibility.

he gave me this patient sigh and said, "well, honey, that's a self-esteem issue, i've always told you how much i love you..." and i felt like saying ARRRR!!! IT'S NOT A FRICKIN "SELF-ESTEEM ISSUE"!!! I TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT I'M INHERENTLY VALUABLE, AND SO DO OTHER PEOPLE!!! I WANT YOU TO VALUE ME!!!

now i regret telling him, because now he thinks i'm crazy, AND because he immediately tried to explain away my greatest desire with a half-baked pop-psych you've-got-issues remark.
what in the heck is wrong with someone wanting her husband to respect, appreciate, and value her??? i don't technically NEED it, i've gotten by without it for our entire marriage, but it's very, very unpleasant to think: "hmmm. everyone likes me except my husband." it makes me wonder if maybe he knows better and that maybe other people find me likeable because they don't live with me. but being fair and trying to maintain some measure of objectivity, i think it's more likely that he's indifferent to the qualities i typically get admiration for. so, maybe i am inherently valuable, just not to him. what do i do???

i'm rescinding my "formerly" until i can be proud of what i say about my husband.

Ah Remain,

What are we going to do with you? Huh?

Here is the deal as I see it. You want admiration, fine. You earn it, enjoy it. You want admiration from your H, fine. You earn it, enjoy it. You listed all of the things your H was against, but you did not list all of the things your H was for.

My point? Well it is a bit subtle. Do you admire your H? If so why? Men, often mix admiration with love. We often cannot love a person we don't admire. Men often use the term "respect" rather than admiration, but think about this.

What is wrong with the folks in the world admiring you. You say you won't need it from your H, I say yes you do. But, here is what you need to think about. Harley founded this site because often well meaning people tried to meet their spouses needs, but missed the target. They missed because they didn't know their spouses needs, OR they tried to meet them as they would like them met and not how the person receiving them wanted them met.

You need admiration, fine get it. You want your H to admire you, fine. Why don't you admire him? Why don't you talk about how you admire what he does. You tell us that he feels bad because you earn more than him. You tell us that he feels less of an H/man because of this. Yet you are the one bringing it up.

It reminds me of a Dr. Phil show where the women on the panel were talking about how THEIR accomplishments intimadated men and they could not get dates. I watch and my first reaction were that they were not that accomplished, but further why would any man want to date a woman who on the first date presented them with their resume? Heck, why would a woman want to date a man that did that either unless she was a gold digger?

Anyway my thought is that your H could use some admiration. My thought is that your perspectives on things need to change, but I will also say your perspectives have change alot since you have been here and for the good. You should be proud of yourself. Do I "admire" you, not really. I do "respect" the efforts you have made and the changes that you have accomplished.

Now which would you like? My admiration, or my respect? I'll give you a clue. You want my respect, admiration is a fleeting thing and I don't spend much of my life "admiring" people or what they have. I find it a lot like greed, I want what you have. So in my book go for the respect.

Just thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

precisely what you're doing, JL--help me get my mind right. as i said, i'm rescinding my "formerly" status until i can quit this irrational resentment of my husband.
No, that�s just it�I get fawned over by the public for superficial stuff. I get acknowledged by my husband for doing things that make him happy. Maybe I�m just addicted to positive attention in any form and need to BECOME VALUABLE to him before I can feel valued.
This is significant, actually�he�s all for MB as far as what it�s enabled me to understand about him, and about marriage in general. He seems favorably impressed with my efforts to meet his emotional needs, and I THINK I�m doing a good job, because he�s showing an ACTIVE trust towards me�which requires not only overcoming my betrayal, but it�s a step up from the PASSIVE , implicit trust he�s always shown. He recognizes now that I have the CAPACITY to betray him, and he still believes that I won�t. I like to think that�s because I�m proving my commitment every day with my actions and my attitude. that�s a BIG DEAL.
This deserves a whole �nother post�to follow shortly.

You think it�s inherent? Like, he MUST respect me on some level or he wouldn�t be able to love me and therefore stay married to me?
I also say yes I jolly well do! That�s what I�m saying, I JUST RECOGNIZED this dynamic, this pattern�I never realized I adored admiration, because it was so easy to get that elsewhere that I never felt a distinct lack from my H. i don�t WANT to flirt with the world at large and be praised for my show-offery�IF I KNEW DEEP-DOWN THAT MY HUSBAND VALUED ME, I WOULDN�T FEEL THE NEED TO SEEK ATTENTION FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
No no no no no, you misunderstand. I only earned more than him for one brief season in my life. He�s always been PRIMARY, and we both like it that way. He likes to be the provider, and I like to feel provided-for. He�s way more educated, his resume is irreproachable, I�m emphatically NOT the breadwinner. in short, it was a FLUKE that I got that job. He was more qualified, I just charmed the interviewer. I�m just saying, during the time when I DID earn more, briefly, I got disgustingly proud about it and it made me feel wayyyy too independent.

JL!! OUCH!
gosh, i hope so. I re-read my initial posts and wanted to punch myself in the nose. Now that I�m not fog-blind and I KNOW my perceptions are out of true, how do i change my perspectives???
i'm not. yet. One day I�ll earn it.
i try not to paint too flattering a picture of myself on here; so i can take that compliment graciously because you've seen the absolute worst side of me and still find my efforts worthy of respect. my personal semantics lead me to associate admirable with honorable, and i'm NOT honorable. Yet. I thank you sincerely, sir.
JL...i didn't really start thinking hard until this part... I�m thinking�the stuff for which I get easy recognition, attention, plaudits, is SUPERFICIAL. Which brings me back to my original line of thinking: if I want to be admired for anything deeper than my appearance and wit�I just need to become more admirable.

you know, believe it or not, my husband is so unshakably admirable in my mind that i took for granted that everyone else knows he's inherently admirable. so i just realized that because you've only seen my side of everything, he's coming across in a really poor light. here's why my husband is admirable, so you guys can get a better idea of him--i'm going to compare us in some respects:

he has an essential depth that i lack. (i have more "muzzle-flash", but he has more PRESENCE.)

he has integrity in all aspects of his life. he's the same person all the time. (i have a tendency to cultivate different personas to fit different situations.)

he's really, really, REALLY intelligent, but he doesn't seem to have the inclination to show off or make people feel stupid. he uses his intelligence to impart knowledge rather than generate applause.

he is a wonderful dad. i could go on all day about this. suffice it to say, he's a wonderful dad.

he is kind, patient, generous, forgiving. he's wise.

he has the type of moral fortitude that allows him to do the rught thing even when there are no external monitors. that's what i mean by INTEGRITY. i have always trusted him implicitly even in dicey and tempting situations: he's a good-looking guy, and his previous role in the ministry required him to serve as the crying-shoulder and voice-of-reason for lots of hot single mommies, and i never had any misgivings--because he is...GOOD.

basically, my husband is a vastly, vastly better person than i am, in all regards.

if i haven't conveyed my admiration for him, it's because i forgot you guys didn't know him. if you did, you would admire him too.

RN:

You are a great woman! I am impressed with your desire to fix your marriage. You are very mature for your age and your H is a lucky man even if you had this affair.

Affairs happen, we are all wired to have affairs because humans are not strictly monogamous. We all want monogamy, but we are also wired for polygamy. So there is a struggle at all times regarding this.

BTW, my wife had an affair after 30 years of marriage and I was Captain America whereas her OM was a fat slob. Why did she do that? Because some folks have affairs to meet their ENs.

IMO, admiration is the type of EN that makes men and women prone to affairs. You are an accomplished attractive woman, but I can see you need validation and attention. Your H did a poor job in giving you the attention you needed.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with wanting admiration. Most folks like to be admired, but for some this is very important. Some of the most beautiful women in the galaxy need to hear someone else tell them they are pretty. Some of the most intelligent men in the world need the wife to tell them they are smart. That is the way it goes.

You said your H also wants admiration. Well---------------give him admiration at all times and soon he will do the same for you. I have learned to give admiration and now is a habit and easy to do. When you admire your loved one you are also doing a lot of good for yourself because that person is your mate.

In your first post you said you still love OM despite hermetic NC. The reason you fell that way is that H does not meet (or did not meet) your ENs.

CIAO

Remain,

Let�s talk about a few things in the first of the two posts you made. You said at the end of the first one
People admire a beautiful woman, and more specifially they may admire her face, her feet, her other body parts. Some men might admire another man that has a beautiful woman on his arm, or a man that drives a hot car. Admiration is as you said superficial. Your need for admiration troubles me because with time you change all people change. I would like to tell you that I look like I did at 20 years old. 45 years later I don�t and the changes are starting to happen faster now, very discouraging. If people admired me for my phyique, then I would have lost that. I am no longer the college athlete I was. If people admire me for my intellect, then that is changing as well. I am far more experienced as a researcher, but I can tell you that my powers of concentration are not the same. I cannot sit down at the desk and then realize 4-6 hours have passed as I focused on my research. If people admired me for the how my W looked 34+ years ago, then things have changed as well. She is almost 60 now. In my eyes she is still a beautiful woman, but that is because I see more than what other people see.

You see I love my W but what is more I respect her�deeply. Heck she put up with me for all of those years.

What you think you seek from your H, admiration, is not what you should seek. Yes, I know you want him to think you beautiful and I would bet lots of money he does and will as long as he loves you and RESPECTS you. The admiration you seek is in fact superficial. The respect you should seek lasts a lifetime. AND importantly to you, the respect starts with you respecting yourself. You don�t need or want people to �covet� what you have, that is admiration. You want people to respect who you are. You want them happy to have you in their lives. And you want people around you in the same way.

You said It was a compliment and I am glad that you have accepted it. You see I and others can learn to respect you without having ever seen you. I think that is important. You say you are not honorable. I wonder, are you saying you have done something to bring dishonor to you in the past, the affair, or are you saying you still act without honor now? I will quote to you from Robert E. Lee. He said It is subtle and it can be changed. You can be and are probably now a woman that acts with honor. You failed once and you recognize it. You are acting to rectify it now. That is an honorable thing to do.

Remain, you are moving right along and I think as you do, your H will see you in an entirely different light. Keep up the good work.

I�ll respond to your other post with a new one.

God Bless,

JL

Ok Remain,

Now we get down to really fiddlin with your perspectives on things. So let me address how you see your H. You said Now if you take my description of admirable, is this what you want/need from a husband??? A pretty face, and man that is admired by others a man that is
Is that what makes a good husband in your mind. You listed a lot of very positive things about your H, but what you did not list is what you respected. You didn�t list what turns you on about him. You didn�t list that you really like how he loves you. You didn�t list how he has handled that pain and insecurity that your affair engendered within him.

You did list that he is steady, smart, a great father, and a man that you can count on. Something he has proved via you�re A. In short is the kind of man people will respect and want as a friend right?

But�why do you LOVE this man? Why did you promise to LOVE, as in the action verb not the feeling? What do you seek from him that will make you KNOW he loves you deeply. What do you give him that allows him to know that you love him deeply? I ask this last one because often what we do is predicated on what we want. This is the essence of Harley�s whole approach, that we often do for others what we want, but it isn�t what the other wanted.

I�ll leave this for you to answer, and then we�ll start �fiddlin� with your perspective a bit more.

God Bless,

JL

Stan--are you "Mr. Memes"?

No, I am not Mr. Meme.

However, memes play an important role in affairs.

meme   [meem] Show IPA
�noun
a cultural item that is transmitted by repetition in a manner analogous to the biological transmission of genes.

Regarding affairs and memes:

Think about FOO.

I got nothin'.

self-inflicted TJ in progress! memes are theoretical, MB. Marshall McLuhan came up w/ the IDEA in the 50s and Richard Dawkins pitched it as biology rather than sociology in the 80s or 90s, i think. before they were called memes they were called "culturgens." the idea being that your DNA retains a genetically transmitted memory of your ancestors' THOUGHTS and patterns of behavior. memes don't physically exist.

i agree that if your parents are adulterers, you're more likely to be one yourself, but i think it's way more likely that it's a learned behavior than a genetically ingrained pattern. it's not Mendelian.

i don't usually TJ myself, but you blinded me with science.

hmmm...a pattern of behavior that's somehow passed down despite your best efforts NOT to transmit it...a pattern that affects your children and your children's children and so on? i've heard that phenomenon referred to as a generational curse.

tom wolfe has a great essay on the "memes culture" w/in the scientific community in his book "hooking up." (mainly "making fun" of richard dawkins' "over-use" of "quotation marks" and "exclamation points!") OK--end of TJ!

what's FOO??

FOO= family of origin.

And that's my only contribution to this scientific discussion.

thanks PM!

Still waiting for the post d day events. At least the PG 13 version.

Whew! :::fanning myself rapidly::: I haven't absorbed this much high-falutin' learning since Theoretical Science 101!

So we aren't talking about popular rock bands, then?

Example of memes:

Go find an American of Northern Italian ancestry whose family has been in USA for 6 generations.

Go find an American of German extraction whose family has been here for six generations.

They both grew up in the same town and have typical American culture.

If you do not know their names and if these two men look alike. Will you be able to tell who is of German ancestry and who is of Italian ancestry?

I suspect that after a very short time you will see a distinct difference in mannerisms and behavioral patterns.

End of threadjack

alright, here goes--i was going to pretty this up, but i'm just going to wing it.
CONDENSED VERSION: i stayed because he scared me. it's worth it to me to get my mind right because my kids deserve a proper family. in short, i ACTED contrite way before i actually was. i REGRETTED my affair from the git-go, but i wasn't truly remorseful for a loooong time. i know it's awful to see your wife acting distant and indecisive over what should be a no-brainer, but you know what? she feels safe enough with you to let you see her at her worst. full version below. it's ugly.
I bounced back because eventually people DO get their conscience back after they commit adultery. And in a practical sense, by the time I was no longer running on adrenaline, it occurred to me that if I could keep the good-wife happy-family act up for that long, why not get my mind right so it wouldn�t be an act anymore? i am not a success story. if H and i had the benefit of plan a and plan b, i'd have behaved like the appalling wayward brat i was, but when it was over i'd be GRATEFUL for H's second chance.

the Meme Fighters, you mean? Richard "Rockin" Dawkins and the Screamin' Memes?

RN:

Obviously BH was spying on you and waited until you went from EA to PA to give you D-day. For me that is hard to understand. If I had done any spying during the EA phase I would immediately bring on a D-day. I don't see the point of more spying once there is an affair going on. He was waiting to see if you would cross the line to PA.

On D-day I told my wife the following: Call your OM and leave the house, we are done.

I thought about our children and told her: "Don't worry, I will not tell the kids that mom is sleeping with OM". Simply leave and we will make some other excuse for the divorce.

She declined the invitation to leave the marriage, showed remorse right away and worked very hard on the marriage. We posted here simultaneously for a long time. She gave me SF constantly and somehow I survived. Without constant SF I would not have survived.

Your H seems like the type of man that inspires intense fear in many women. I don't know what to say about him because I don't know him. Do you think he would have done something violent? Perhaps he was bluffing. I was not there-----I cannot tell.

IN any event keep up the good work. Thanks for your story! You are growing very rapidly.

I am still concerned as to why your H allowed the PA.

H is not a fundamentally scary guy. STUPID girls marry guys who intimidate them. if i'd seen even the slightest trace of a TENDENCY in him, i'd never have married him. he does NOT have a tendency towards violence. he has the CAPACITY for violence as much as everyone on this planet does. did he scare the hell out of me? yes. DOES he scare the hell out of me? absolutely not.

i believe my betrayal brought out facet of his personality that had probably never existed before or since. i'll never know if he was bluffing or not, but i also know i'm not going to test it.

that post was primarily for YEG's benefit--i didn't want him thinking i was a good example of how WWs "typically" behave. his WW sounds annoyingly indecisive, but she's as likely to bounce back as anyone, and she'll eventually appreciate just how patient and kind he was, knock on wood.

Remain,

Apart from what I have said to you recently, what you described to YEG about your feelings or lack of them is very very normal. It even has a name, it is called withdrawal. Most WS's go through it. It very much is like drug withdrawal because the affair has altered your brain chemistry and it takes awhile for this to change back to normal.

The "high" of an affair is not dissimilar to a "runners" high and most WS seek that high even when they know it is wrong. It takes awhile for this to pass. It apparently has now passed in your case.

JL

JL--

it took a while, but i do think i'm over it! hooray!

i'm really taking my time w/ the admiration thing. i think i've got it about straightened out in my mind, let me see if i can get in into coherent format.

I am glad

In my moments of anger I would sometimes tell my wife I was hiring someone to beat OM to a pulp. I was bluffing, but she probably took my words seriously .

I would also ask God to kill OM and WW would freak out. A betrayed man can act strangely.

BTW, my wife went through a withdrawal, but she tried not to show the symptoms in front of me. In that sense she was like you.

Keep it up. You are doing an amazing job .

BTW, pay attention to JL. IMHO, he is the greatest and most talented MB forum member. Study every word he says, that is your homework.

Er,no. I was suggesting the Foo Fighters. Am I a loser, or what?

Being totally candid (and receptive to imminent 2x4s), I could be happy with H if he were less deep, less intelligent, less honest, less wise, and less moral. Ben Franklin was deep, intelligent, honest, wise, and moral. So�s the Dalai Lama. I�d prefer not to be married to either of them. I respect all those qualities immensely. They are ADMIRABLE traits. They�re things I�m really fortunate to have in a husband.
If H had time and energy to spend with me/on me,
if he were funny and charming and flirty even on the most superficial level,
if he would vent to me when he was unhappy or stressed instead of being a quiet pillar of stoicism (the implication being, yeah, i'm in a bad mood, but i feel better because YOU'RE here to listen),
if he would consider me�not just WHAT HE THINKS WOULD BE BEST FOR ME, but what I�d LIKE--when he made decisions that affect our family.
If he would RELAX and have FUN with me. I swear to you, it�s like he doesn�t know how to have fun. All the stuff we do together is either �Mandatory Fun� events that we�re invited to and we HAVE to go�stuff that IS fun, but that�s obligatory�or things we alllll do together as a family, girls included. It�s like he doesn�t want to be alone with me. that's how the whole POJA thing came up the other day--more later.
I�m not sure he does. I think he is committed to staying married. Sometimes I wonder if he�s testing me to see how committed I am, like to see if I�ll stick around in spite of circumstances... I think he�s committed to being the last man standing.
That�s because I sincerely cannot admire or respect the way he�s handled it. I know that�s an awful thing to say, because he had the right to react any way he saw fit. My betrayal negates all expectations of loving behavior on his part. I know I�m lucky to have him at all. And I�m EXTREMELY fortunate that he trusts me again. Or at least, he seems to trust me as much as he ever did.

Because I took a vow. As you pointed out, I didn�t vow to be forever infatuated with him or forever lust after him, I vowed to forever LOVE, HONOR, and OBEY him. I took that vow when I was in love. He has �outgrown� the superficial stuff that made me fall in love with him, but I�ve found him to be a way, way better man than the version I fell in love with.
i hate to say it, but i want the superficial stuff. i want him to flirt, wisecrack, be silly with me, show off for me. i want to catch him checking me out when i'm not looking, and i want to see pride on his face when we're out somewhere together. i want him to save jokes and stories to tell me in the evenings. i want him to kiss me like he can't help it, not pucker up like Ward Cleaver. and i want him to hang out with me just because he likes my company.

these are things i do for him IN ADDITION to the domestic stuff that's important to him. i do my darnedest to CONVEY THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM INFATUATED WITH HIM. i know how much i DETEST having things done for me when they're obviously being done out of obligation or a sense of duty, so i try to make it seem like i do stuff for him because i'm inspired to because he's so likeable/sexy/impressive/whatever. if you're going to make a show out of how you're going out of your way to do something nice for me, i'd rather you didn't do it at all, know what i mean? you don't act that way when you ARE in love.

other stuff i do just because HE likes it--he tells me he has zero need for affection, but he loves to have his back scratched when he's falling asleep, so i do it. would i like my back scratched every now and then? well, sure, who wouldn't. but i don't feel like i'm missing out. i'd rather have him look me in the eye and grin and tell me i'm cute or something. what does it MATTER if the house looks nice if you're going to go straight to your room and have your wife bring you dinner in there while you watch TV?? it's infuriating!!! i'm afraid that while i admire him immensely, i JUST DON'T LIKE HIM!!!
You had mentioned before that couples try to express love in the ways that we like to receive it, and it totally fits us, but i guard against it: Example--he says now that his biggest need is domestic support. OK, I personally think that�s boring and not very EMOTIONAL, not very intimate... But I will cheerfully channel all my creative energy into becoming the best domestic engineer on this planet if it makes him HAPPY. There�s only so happy you can be about a well-run household, though, I should think. I don�t WANT constant acknowledgement that �the floors are really shiny today, wow,� or �this steak is killer, good job��I want him to take all that domestic support stuff for granted so he can focus on what he likes about MEEEE. I don�t want him to be surprised and pleased daily by my housekeeping efforts. I don�t want that to determine how affectionate or sexy or loving he feels towards me. a comfortable and inviting house and good food should be the BACKDROP, not the main focus. Not to get whiny, but for real�if that�s what it�s all about, it would have been cheaper for him to hire someone.
I LOVE the superficial stuff�I flirt with him, I save my funniest stories and jokes for him, I make sure I look good for him, I do all the show-off the stuff you do when you LIIIIKE someone. I want him to HANG OUT with me, just shoot the breeze and enjoy one another. So, he has all the deep, true, admirable qualities. He�s pro-commitment, pro-honesty, pro-kindness. it just seems like he's just anti-fun. how do i get him to relax and get happy??? ASIDE from the obvious, please, i've got that covered.

RN:

Everything is now clear. I think I understand why you do not love H. He does not meet any of your ENs.

Did you tell your H how you really feel about him? If my wife felt that way about me she would have divorced me years ago or had at least 20-30 affairs.

I know this is MB, but you guys are a mismatch. Now you know why you had an affair.

Why is H unable to meet your ENs of attention, conversation, and admiration?

I understand some may say you are in the fog and rewriting marital history, but you sound way too smart.

yeah, we're technically a mismatch, going by INCLINATION. but if we each cultivate the inclination to show each other love first and foremost, it could still work beautifully. it sounds formulaic, but hey, who said "math is true"?

i don't think he's unable to meet my needs. i think he may not be naturally inclined to meet them, but neither am i inclined to be a domestic engineer. i can gin up an honest enthusiasm for it, though, if it means a happy life. if we reduce it to natural inclination, i'd probably have been better off as a trophy wife, and h should have married someone plain, quiet, and pious, with childbearing hips and a natural flair for servitude. well, we didn't. and we have KIDS. we HAVE to make it work.

i don't even think he's UNWILLING to meet my needs--in all fairness, he's been bending over backwards for me in his own way since we got married, as i felt i was bending over backwards for him--we were just going about it all wrong. we were working really hard to do the stuff for each other that WE each valued, and neglecting what the other actually wanted. we were both sacrificing our butts off and both feeling neglected and unappreciated. that shows that we CARED, that we wanted to make each other happy, and that counts immensely! now that i know what he needs, i'm happy to give it. and right now, it's still satisfying just to GIVE and appreciate his reaction.

maybe it's too early in the post-A game for me to think about what i need from him. i don't want to come on all demanding, because i'm afraid the unspoken subtext would be: "here's what you must do to prevent me from cheating." you know? i'll never cheat again, regardless of needs met/not met. and i want him to be totally confident of that, i want it established in his mind as absolute truth, before i even hint at what i want from HIM. i'm hoping it's just a time issue.

i WANT to be in love with my husband. i said on someone else's thread a while back that look: if i have adequate control over my mind to systematically dismiss a lifetime of moral training (adultery=bad) and deliberately instill a state of HALLUCINATORY foolishness (adultery=ME LIKEE), and then purposely undo it? i should CERTAINLY be able to convince myself that i'm in love with my husband. that should be a walk in the park.

phrase of the day: "make it so!"

p.s. the only thing i worry about would be asking him to change an aspect of his personality. i can generate a feeling if i work at it, but i can't make him express it in a certain way.

no 2x4s? can i come out of duck-and-cover stance?

i'm the first to admit i'm probably still feeling a trace of residual fog. looking back at my older posts, my tone is SO influenced by mood...even when i sound coherent and rational, if i sound fatalistic or i'm being unpleasant and dishonorable about H, you can probably write it off as fog. if i'm telling you something grim and unflattering about myself, it's probably something new i just realized thanks to JL.

let me warn you that i tend to sound entirely smarter than i actually am. grammar goes a long way.

As you know there is a saying in MB that says LOVE is a verb. If one does loving acts in a systematic fashion this can become a habit and then it is not a difficult thing to do. Eventually this loving acts generate positive benefits for the couple.

However, at some point there must be pleasure in meeting ENs. At some point there is also a need to feel the butterflies of romantic enchantment.

I provide a lot of attention and admiration to my wife and she works very hard to meet my ENs. Because I am grateful she interprets this as more approval and admiration and the cycle continues.

If your H gave you the approval and attention you seek you would work even harder to meet his ENs. It is a win-win situation. However, H is not there yet.

Will he get there?
Could he be resentful?

resentful??? uhhh...ya THINK?? =)

that's why i said maybe it's too early in the game for me to think too much about what i need. i'm trying to derive as much satisfaction as possible from meeting HIS needs--sort of "the satisfaction of a job well done" kind of thing--and hope that as he sees my commitment, he'll begin to relax.

i'm trying to break myself of the perceived need for butterflies. like i said in my admiration post, maybe i just need to become more admirable. for GROWN-UP stuff. try to develop the same qualities he's got. maybe i hit the nail on the head before--maybe he has literally outgrown his appreciation for the little infatuation-type stuff, and i need to get wiser and more Ben-Franklinish before he CAN have any legitimate admiration for me.

Does your H know this?

Could you explain all this post to your H?

To me it is crystal clear and eloquently stated. I see w your ENs from my post in Mars. Have you stated your views to your H in this manner?

Remain,

Boy do I have a lot to say. I will say that I think your H can meet your needs, however, you are going to have to realize a few things to get him to address them as you like. I don't take your post as a downer, but a gradual coming to understanding of yourself. Until you do that your H won't have a clue how to meet your needs. Once you do, you will be able to tell him and show him. So let me start what I think is going to be a very long post.

You said a lot in the following quote
Are you seeing why YOUR need for admiration is not high on my list. You admire your H but really that is not endearing to you is it?

In short you want him to relax, quit protecting himself and enjoy LIFE with you, does this sum it up?
What do YOU think would be fun things to do?
How do you think you could get him to not consider his children and include them when he thinks of you?
Has he ever been a person that was funny, had a good or a dry sense of humor? Has he changed since you married.
Do you really want him to quit thinking of what is BEST for you, or is it you would like some input in the decisions?
Do you think that since you that since he is 8 years older than you he thinks of you as someone to protect more than share with?

You also answered to my question about how he handled the pain and insecurity engendered by your affair in the following way Since you don't admire or respect how he handled it, would you compare and contrast how he did do it to how you would have done it if you were in his place. I know this sounds like an English essay question, but I think it is important that you envision how you would have handled in his place. Trust me I do have a reason for asking.

You also said Ok, please remind me of his educational and work background. I am asking this because many folks who are in positions of trust or authority such as professors etc, feel that they MUST act in a controlled, even manner no matter how they feel. Couple this with how us guys are trained to submerge our emotions and you often get what you describe. His demeanor could be as it is with many a device to protect himself from ridicule, pain, embarrassment and is often learned at a young age. He may really be worrying that you won't respect him if you see beneath the veneer. You have hurt him badly and therefore it is likely you are seeing more of the wall/shell/veneer than you might.

I have a bunch of ideas about all of this and how you can address it as we hone in on your perspectives and how you see your H.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL
PS: There is an old saying "women marry men expecting to change them, and men marry women expecting that they will not change." You married very young, and I wonder if he is still seeing you as very young rather the mother of his children and capable of making good decisions, you're a not withstanding.

RN,

It sounds to me like you feel like your hubby is just plain afraid to loosen up and relax around you. I can relate to this to some degree.

When D-Day came around any my then WW confessed, one thing she mentioned was that I just wasn't any fun anymore.

I have a job that keeps me in the public eye. In fact, it gets to be a 24/7 thing that's frankly quite annoying. After a while, I got to the point where I was afraid to do anything that might affect my public image and I became, quite frankly, deadly dull and boring -- even to me.

The whole A and its aftermath forced me to look at myself, and I underwent a self-administered stick-ectomy. I realized I wasn't having any fun myself, which made me absolutely no fun to be around. I didn't even like hanging around me all that much.

After my wakeup call, I changed the way I did things. I stopped worrying about things and loosened up. Some things I didn't change. There are some missteps that would cost me my job and everything I've built up over the past 25 years. A DUI arrest would result in being on the front page of the local paper and me living in my car, for example.

That had something to do with my resistance to exposing the A, to be honest. I still want to keep as much of my life private. I have no desire to be the topic of gossip for 275,000 people, thank you very much. It's bad enough now -- let's not give them ammo.

I basically function like I'm everyone's next door neighbor, and I like that image. It's gotten to the point that my DW gets some of the overflow, and since she's become rather high-profile in the retail industry in our town, she gets some of that in her own right. And some of that has finally clued her into some of the crap I've been dealing with for years. Opened her eyes, that has. That hasn't hurt.

Have you told him what you're feeling on this topic? It might make a difference.

If I remember correctly you did fill out you EN questionaire and give it to your DH. If not how do you expect him to know how to meet your EN's.

Wow.

YES!!!

funny you should ask! last week i mentioned, hey, this MB stuff I�m reading says its really important for couples to spend at least 15 hours a week together one-on-one, just the two of them hanging out together. I told him I�d realized, we�ve always had our own hobbies and organizations we�re in and we�ve always been totally cool with doing our own thing�but that it would be really fun to find something WE like and make it OUR THING. It�s not like we have no common interests, and there are probably a million more things we�d both love that neither of us have tried. But when I suggested, hey, let�s think of some stuff that we can do for fun together, he got all uncomfortable and said, �we don�t really have any common ground in that area. I don�t think we need to be joined at the hip.� I said, well, no, certainly not, it�s healthy for us to have our own interests blah blah, I�m SAYING, let�s find something FUN for YOU AND I to do. Bounce some ideas off me, I�ll bounce some ideas off you, and if it�s something you find absolutely boring you can veto it and vice-versa, and if we both like it, let�s set a date! And he said, �I don�t really have hobbies. There�s nothing I really enjoy doing just for fun. I�m not really into the whole leisure thing.� Well�.that�s CRAP. Because listen, we have PLENTY of common interests.

OK, I�m ruling stuff he can�t or won�t do and listing stuff we�d BOTH enjoy:
We could learn a second language.
Build an old-school canoe out of a solid piece of wood.
Drive in the country; maybe collect some Spanish moss to transplant to our trees at home.
Or we could build one of those Frankenstein ATVs with the roll-cages and go rock-crawling in dry creek beds! AWRIIIIGHT!
Cruise the flea markets and antique shops (our town has like 20 antique shops) and dig around for antique books and crazy knick-knacks.
Draw out plans for improving our land, figuring landscaping layouts and water features and stuff. (actually IMPROVING our land, the labor part, is my personal project. Figure that towards Domestic Support. =])
Work on our project cars (I�ve got a 77 El Camino Classic, he�s got a 55 Chevy step-side pick-up). He could teach me about the systems and I could teach him about the cosmetic stuff.
Play Scrabble or Bananagrams (that�s speed-scrabble w/ more lax rules.)
Go to art galleries and pick out what we WOULD get, if only.
Or hell, we could lounge around out on the patio drinking beer and maybe git nekkid.
We could even, perhaps, GO�FISHING�ALREADY.

that's the stuff we could BOTH do. if it were up to me i'd pick more physical stuff--learn to dance, go rock-climbing, backpacking, take up a risky sport--but the stuff listed above is actually feasible.


This has me stumped. Is he seeing me as the third daughter, here, you think? Any suggestions?

.
He�s HILARIOUS. he and I were always the life of the party. Still are, when we�re in public. We banter like anchormen. He can be extremely dry and witty. But not with me unless we�re out somewhere where people are watching.

Obviously I want him to choose what�s best for our family, and I respect his role as the leader of our household. I�m talking about huuuuge decisions�whether or not to move back to Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina, for instance. Whether to buy a house or build a house. What said house should look like. Whether to buy a business�that would REQUIRE ME TO WORK THERE TO MAKE IT SUSTAINABLE. OK, yes, I�d like some input in the decisions. I didn�t want to move back to Louisiana. I�m afraid to design a house myself, because what if my custom masterpiece doesn�t match what I�ve envisioned and we�ve spent 20% more than we should have per square foot and we couldn�t ever recoup our cost if we try to sell? I�ll gladly give him free reign w/ $ to pursue his dream, I won�t even look at the P&Ls if he;s confident it�s a good venture, but I don�t want him to buy me a 9-to-5. That�s�ILL-ADVISED. He�ll ask me what I think, of course, but if I express concerns, or disagree, or ask questions, he�ll have an explanation not for why I shouldn�t be concerned, but why I shouldn�t be asking. JL, if you�re the husband and therefore the decision-maker, it�s not just COURTEOUS to consider how it�ll affect your wife, it�s a BIBLICAL IMPERATIVE. I told him after Katrina that I would never ever question his leadership and that if God had given him an absolute conviction that he was needed in Louisiana, so be it, we would move back cheerfullyu. I would pray for peace and accept his decision as truth, and if I had misgivings, I would ascribe them to my own lack of faith and pray against superimposing my own agenda over God�s will. I trust him to make good decisions. What throws me is when he makes decisions with poor outcomes and then wants to know why I didn�t talk him out of it. That�s not fair. Either be the leader or don�t. either consult me or don�t.

huh. I don�t know. I don�t mind feeling protected, I rather dig feeling protected. If he were a Mafioso or something I�d rather be protected than shared with. But�if he doesn�t talk to me about stuff--to whom does he talk???

JL�this is awful to contemplate. You have the whole story of how he handled it, a few posts back, YEG�s quote as the header. My simple answer to how I�d have handled it? Best case scenario: simple: PLAN A AND PLAN B. I�d have been slower to accept responsibility for my actions and feel real remorse, but I�d know for a fact that my husband was taking me back because he LOVED me, and I�d have a deeper understanding of his capacity for forgiveness. and i'd feel gratitude.

He was a minister for 7-8 years�not as in preacher, although I think he�s legally recognized as an ordained minister--he was in executive-level management for a Christian school and the accompanying church. So, yes, very much public-eye, very much not-causing-thy brother-to-stumble. He�s now in the private sector�since my affair he;s been, respectively: associate publisher of a newspaper; a private investigator; a state-licensed instructor for liquor-license certification; �� for concealed-weapons permits; consultant for a property management firm; head of the commercial division of an insurance agency; and finally (currently) rep for a tech/service company. Whew. So, yes, even if his immediate position doesn�t require him to be in the public eye, he�s always been keenly aware of how he�s perceived. As am i. I know in the past, when he was active in the ministry, he deliberately tried to come across as older, wiser, more serious�I mean, he bought a frickin suede vest to wear under his suit jackets. And a pocket-watch. He associates age with wisdom and respectability; he wanted people to see him as trustworthy, so he tried to project the �grey eminence� that one would typically associate w/ the headmaster and administrator of a private school. BUT HE�s ONLY 34. When we�d been married for like a year, I remember we chaperoned some event for the church youth group�I was younger than some of the high-school seniors, and I could tell he was ashamed of himself for putting himself in that position, and thereby ashamed of me. I cut my hair shorter and started wearing tailored stuff after that. Hmmm�maybe he should have considered the simple fact that if I were 8 years younger than him when he married me, logic would dictate that I would always be 8 years younger than him. I GREW UP. He got OLD before his time, on purpose. At any rate, yes, I�m sure that being always conscious of scrutiny would make you self-conscious and careful, but I PLAY that game, and I play it well, and with relish. I�m a fine hostess and a brilliant networker, and I believe that even if his sole purpose in this world were to look presentable to the public, he�d be better off with me than without me. why does he put on his game-face for everyone else and then come home and go straight to his room and sulk? I try to console myself that maybe it�s a comfort thing, he feels at ease at home and can let his guard down�it's probably that he needs more time to forgive me.
That�s quite likely. But first off, he was acting the same way for two years before my affair. Also, now, it seems like he�s showing me the worst side of himself deliberately, and showing me also that he�s trying to conceal it. What do you call that--PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE. I�d rather he just FLIP and get it all out of his system�instead, he�ll sit really still and clench his jaw and breath in a really measured but audible fashion and stare straight ahead. I hate this worse than anything on the planet because it makes me all chirpy and tip-toey. It�d be one thing if he were just blank and neutral�actually no, that would worry me to death too�but this KILLS me. it�s like an implosive angry outburst.
That rather makes me wonder, again, why he married me. In fact, why was a 26-year old even dating an 18-year-old?
Look, I know and you know that women are pretty much in their physical prime in their late teens/early twenties, whereas men stay handsome til their late forties or so. 18-year-old girls are LOVELY, all of them. I�ve worked my butt off to stay looking 18 forever. But I�ve grown up, also, as far as responsibility and your basic intelligence, plus motherhood, fulfilling not only the role of a wife but a MINISTER�S wife�I believe I was an asset to him, socially. At any rate, I made a point to grow up mentally and emotionally but still retain the best aspects of youth: Optimism. Vivacity. Confidence. Playfulness. I never wanted him to change. I liked him the way he was when I married him. He not only changed, its like he eradicated all traces of his former personality. I married Johnny Knoxville and 2 months later he morphed into Ned Flanders.

Remain,

I don't have much time but I think you are wrong about the physical prime thing. For me women hit their peak of beauty in their 40's. They have the optimum combination of physical beauty, maturity, and generally inner beauty. I know it is not fashionable but maturity in women is a beautiful thing and leads to an enhanced inner beauty as they are experienced enough in life to understand themselves and the people in their lives.

Are you starting to see why I think of you as very young? You are nowhere near your prime. I will also say that most men don't really mature until about 30 or so. I am wondering if your H is as mature as you think he is.

My guess is that you need to inquire of your husband as to why he is not interested in spending time with you. I have always considered passive agressive behavior rather cowardly and NEVER productive. I have seen few if any examples of passive aggressive behavior being productive in my life.

I must go, I will be back with more thoughts in the next day or so.

God Bless,

JL

i have NOT told him what i think about this.

what i find strange is that he's absolutely charming and witty when we're in public view. i mean, think, a visibly happy marriage is an upside thing, even from a strict public-image-enhancement standpoint.

the 2 sides of the coin as i see them: here's the optomisitc one: maybe he finds it mentally exhausting to play the game, so he keeps up the anchorman's banter in public and relaxes into silence when he's alone with me because he feels comfortable enough to do so.

one hopes.

RN,

My DW and I have done banter like that every since we got married. It usually sounds more like a standup routine, which we both really find amusing.

I put so much of myself into my work, and so little of myself into the M, that D-Day was a true wakeup call for me. I realized I needed to flip my priorities, and I've certainly done that.

Your A should be a clarion call to him. He needs to change what he's doing to, as HNHN advertises, affair-proof the marriage. My actions, or the lack of them, was one of the factors that led to our marital issues. Yeah, the A was all on her, but what I was doing helped create the conditions that made it even a remote possibility.

I'm not about to fall into old, bad habits, because on that road lies disaster. He needs to stop hitting the snooze button on the marital alarm clock.

Affair-proof the marriage...ideally that would refer to ENs being met consistently on both sides, an absence of LBs, and SOLID BOUNDARIES. The mutual ENs-fulfillment will come in time, but til then i'm concerned about boundaries.

H and I have NO BOUNDARIES WHATSOEVER. There�s been public scrutiny, of course, and the desire to avoid the appearance of impropriety, but that�s about it. We�ve always trusted one another implicitly, which is great within the parameters of a mutually satisfying relationship wherein each is fulfilling the others� needs, but rather stupid otherwise.

I thought long and hard about what boundaries I�ve actually USED in the past�-basically, what kept me faithful when I wasn�t concerned about who was watching?�and they came down to something like this:

�don�t flirt with anyone you find attractive.� Not don�t confide in, don�t spend time w/, laugh w/, converse w/ at length, give advice to, joke w/, go out in public w/ and introduce as A Dear Friend Of The Family, text in the middle of the night, play pranks on�no, all that stuff was OK because it wasn�t flirting. As long as you don�t blush and giggle, you�re within your boundaries.

�No unnecessary physical contact beyond a handshake. Nothing intimate or socially gratuitous.� OK�but define unnecessary. Define intimate. Define socially gratuitous. Straightening someone�s collar for them, or wiping a smudge of paint off one�s cheek�I�d do these for anyone, of either gender, in my husband�s presence. But I had to remind myself of that fact a million times to justify it to myself and try to inure myself to the illicit thrill of touching OM. They BECAME intimate gestures because I sought to DERIVE a thrill from them. And define socially gratuitous. If you�re with a group at, say, Chamber of Commerce and you�re telling fishing stories, and one guy says he got a heck of a bite from an alligator, check out the scar, and holds out his hand for inspection�everyone�s going to grab his hand and turn it this way and that in the light like the Hope Diamond and admire the scar. It would be rude not to. And there are many respectable venues at which the double-cheek air-kiss and warm hug is standard greeting. I think it�s just an excuse to breathe in the ear of someone else�s wife right in front of everyone. That�s the HEIGHT of illicit thrill within the bounds of social propriety.

�tell H about everyone you meet.� No prob. I always have. H never met OM, for instance, because I described him quite openly in a way that would ensure that H would never WANT to meet him.

�don�t criticize H or commiserate about your relationship with ANYONE.� I didn�t discuss H with OM, not because it felt immoral but because it felt typical and tacky. I knew where I was heading, and I didn�t want to be a textbook case. Which of course I am. if I�d had someone wise and moral and practical to confide to beforehand�in particular, if I�d had MB beforehand and could recognize the dynamic of our relationship�I could have fixed it instead of cheating.

I find this fricking HORRIFYING. My boundaries were HIDEOUSLY LAX. H�s still are, but he�s never betrayed my trust. At this point my actions are still dictated more by INTERNAL THRESHOLDS than PRESCRIBED BOUNDARIES�I need to stop trusting my thresholds and start establishing some boundaries.

i'm not in a position to impose boundaries on H, and again, he's never given me the slightest reason to distrust him, but his boundaries are pretty much non-existent too. the only thing between H and a well-earned retaliatory affair is me fulfilling his ENs.

Why did you have the affair?

How did you cross the line?

Why did you want to have an affair?

What were you missing?

Are you a person that seeks thrills?

Do you have an addictive personality?

Stanley, are you administering a fog-litmus test? i'll give you the fog answers and the real, rational ones.

wayward answer: i convinced myself that a fling would buy me a lifetime of fidelity. i thought, ok, i'm an affair waiting to happen--if i'm going to do it, i'm going to make sure it's as sordid and tacky and distasteful as possible, i'm going to make myself sorry, and i'll be so disillusioned that i'll forever have a new appreciation for my husband, and I�ll never ever do it again. and of course, i'll never get caught, so there won't be any consequences for anyone else except myself. [DURRR, slobber slobber, bang head against wall.] and you know what�s scary? The whole year and a half I spent as OM�s �friend�, I didn�t recognize it for what it was: a serious, marriage-threatening EA. Even if it had remained an EA, it was as damaging as the physical part because I didn�t feel I was doing anything wrong. I even remember thinking, wow, it I hadn�t met OM, I�d probably be having an affair by now! Thank God for FRIENDS!
real answer: i made a calculated decision based on irrational feelings of resentment and perceived neglect. blah blah entitlement blah blah self-deception. all true. i am a CLASSIC, TEXTBOOK example of the wayward mentality. I hardened my heart against my husband and made myself emotionally independent of him. I immunized myself against disappointment by teaching myself not to expect anything of him. And in doing so, I made myself immune to his kindness, his care, and his love.

wayward answer: if you read my thing re boundaries, you'll see that there WASN'T a line. with my horrible boundaries in play, i didn't cross the line until i actually went PA.
in real life, however, as soon as i met OM and realized w/in 5 minutes that i liked him better than my husband, the line had been crossed and i should have had no further dealings w/ him at all, ever.

wayward answer (you'll note that there is no real-life answer, because healthy people don't WANT to have affairs.)i actually convinced myself that i needed it. and i perpetuated that by overcompensating like mad for the year plus that it was EA. i really did derive enough happiness from it that i had an extra measure of patience and eagerness to please at home. It seemed like a win-win. Hah. Stupid wayward mindset.

real-life answer (no wayward perspective on this because it would require me to actually induce fog.):i don't want to make it about what i was missing, because whatever i felt i was missing, nothing can justify what i did. i hate phrasing it in terms of my emotional needs, because I never gave H a chance to fulfill them.

I CRAVE thrills, but I have few opportunities to indulge that. If I had no obligations, I�d seek classic, impulsive, sky-diving type thrills, but I�ve tempered my personality against impulsivity and hedonism.

Voil�, perhaps that is why you had the affair, crossed the line, etc. However, more information is needed.

There are men and woman that have affairs when they do not have ENs met. However, some affairs occur in good marriages. On the other hand some men and women never cheat even if they have the marriage from hell.

Some young women categorize men within 5 minutes as to whether they are good enough for sex or good enough to just be a friend.

Of course, there are women that see men as friends and then emotional intimacy leads to the affair. But, in your case the OM was highly attractive right away.

Men and women meet attractive people everyday and they don't have affairs.

So why did you have the affair?

Despite your treatise on the subject I believe you left some information.

if i REALLY answer your question, it would imply that my horrible choice w/ OM was some kind of love-at-first-sight soul-mates crap. no, it was this: i thought i could override my attraction to him by making a legitimate friend out of him. that's a boundary thing and a bad-choice thing. if i hadn't spend so much time with him, i never would have had the CHANCE to reallllly like him. i'd have been better off not knowing, you see?

i can't afford to believe in that soul-mates stuff, because number one, practically ALL WWs believe OM is their "soul mate", and number two, OM DIED last year. i found out recently through a mutual acquaintance that he died in February of 09. i had no reason to post it--what would people say, "im sorry for your loss"? but if that's the case, then the soul-mates thing is pretty much out the window, wouldn't you say? and maybe i'd better find a new soul-mate, and maybe i should start with my husband.

All of us have chemistry with some other people and there are many soul mates out there.

Besides boundaries one can simply understand the why we Love and avoid pitfalls.

I agree with your post 100%!

Will you agree that to have affairs one must be very idealistic or even naive?

I have also discovered that folks that have affairs fall in love very easily.

OM died?????

Does your H know?

I am not sure whether to say I am sorry. How do you feel about OM's death?

I am not worried about my wife's OM whether alive or dead. My approach is my wife can have him any time she wants him. I dared her so many times!

i think that the connotation of idealism and naivete suggests a sort of helpless vulnerability. i prefer to say that to have an affair one must be very STUPID,while exhibiting also the sort of base, primitive cunning one might observe in reptiles. one must also be GREEDY, SELF-INDULGENT, and TREACHEROUS. firmly denying the existence of possible consequences does not constitute naivete, it's self-deception.

hmmm, i don't know. i fall in LIKE easily. i click with people quickly, make friends fast, but it's because i really just like people.

H knows. he didn't rub it in. i feel about like you'd expect. i was shocked, mainly--he was only 42. i don't know what happened. i didn't look it up, i just took acquaintance's word. as far as missing him, i already knew i'd never see him again. i'm sad for his family, of course, and his real friends. i regretted my affair worse than ever when i found out--because instead of being a friend whom it's OK for me to remember and to miss, now he's a non-entity i can't even cry for. on the pro side, the circumstances don't allow me to entertain any what-if-i-married-the-wrong-man ideas. i've got my husband. there are no other valid options. and i will make it work.

i'll get back to the happy day-to-day stuff this eve--i see where you're going, Stan, i've read Desmond Morris and Why We Love and How We Believe, etc etc--i'm aware of what makes certain people biologically better "adultery candidates" than others, but i believe above all in FREE WILL, and that one can counter inclination with awareness. i didn't let it happen, i MADE it happen. it's a lot easier to reject bad tendencies if you admit that while you don't choose your tendencies, you CHOOSE your behavior.

REmain,

Boundaries??? Boy Oh Boy is there a lot to say about all of this. First, I want to ask you what is your plan to rebuild this marriage? How do you plan to make communications with your H better than it was before? What is your plan for you to have a marriage where YOUR needs are met as are his?

What do you see as a very good marriage? Do you know what your H sees as a very good marriage?

Have you ever considered that your H might be very insecure and seeks admiration/recognition from others, but is afraid of being close to you because you might find out he isn't so good?

Have you considered that your affair has in fact confirmed what he has always felt about himself? Have you considered he can joke around with others because they cannot reach him, but he fears doing it with you because you can reach him?

Have you ever considered that he NEEDS you to tell him what you need, not in a demanding way, but in a sharing/team way? Have you tried to "train" him be giving him positive feedback when he does something you like with: the kids, you, around the house, etc.?

So many questions. I really would like you to think about your marriage what you seeks and what you see in your H.


The reason should be obvious. To really make the MB approach work, you two need to share a life and that takes communications. You need to learn to speak to him in a language that he understands and that resonates with him internally. As you do, I think you will find that he will start to open up to you and start to see you in a different light.

But, don't make him read your mind. Let him know what you want, what you need, and how happy you are when he does. Your affair, does not mean your needs should not be met. Your affair means many things but not that. Your goal is to figure out how to get under his defenses and communicate with him on a heart to heart level so that he can learn he can place his heart in your hands and you will take very good care of it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

As I said there are folks that have or don't have affairs and this is often related to ENs that are met or not met.

What can one do if the affair happens because of chemistry with someone, opportunity, and addictive behaviors.


What can one do if one is very friendly?

There are folks that don't have affairs and are never tempted. They do not struggle with the opposing forces of monogamy and polygamy. Where are you on this?

How are your infidelity memes?

BTW, the questions by JL need your responses.

CIAO

JL, I may be dense, but I picked up on a sort of theme here...could we be communicating poorly?
this is our primary issue, and i've done a LOT of thinking...right now, he's meeting my needs by default. i mean, i could continue like this indefinitely as far as having a series of good days. but that doesn't constitute a good marriage in and of itself. I CANNOT BRING MYSELF TO BE OPEN WITH HIM. and now that he's meeting my needs really well and i should be satisfied, i started trying to figure out what the heck my problem is:

THIS IS WHAT MAKES ME NOT WANT TO BE OPEN WITH HIM:
PASSIVE AO: this may be dumb�it�s the exact OPPOSITE of an angry outburst, and I should probably be happy about this , you tell me: when he�s upset he won�t say a word, he�ll get terribly still, tense, and silent and I find it maddening. It�s not fair for me to criticize how he deals with stress, you can't say "i don't like how you act when you're sad"--it's not ABOUT me. i can't deny the man an emotional reaction! but this behavior quite frankly scares me and makes me jumpy for hours. And he acts the same whether he�s furious at something in particular, or if he�s tired and sore, or if he�s just had a mildly stressful day. So I never know whether to leave him alone or if I should try to do something for him or what�Do I just need to get over this?? the impression it gives me is that he's going to, like, snap at any second. it makes me want to not bother him at all, let alone ask for anything. let alone ask him to QUIT IT.
CONSTANT, SUBTLE, CONDESCENDING DJs: arguing with me when i talk about what i WANT. telling me why it's unrealistic to WANT it. i posted about this a week or so ago and i deleted my post because it was so furious.

i want to be open with him, i know that's the first step to any kind of honesty, let alone RADICAL honesty, and i know we can't REALLY agree on anything until i can express a point of view.do you think i ought to just save up and get some counseling? i'm sure i'd benefit from it, but that would REALLY weaken my position as far as being able to talk to him openly. if i asked for something then, it would be "i'm sure your counselor may have led you to BELIEVE that that's a reasonable expectation, but that's not how things work in real life." or the very fact that i was seeing a counselor would make my feelings automatically invalid.

can i, as the wayward spouse, EVER make a straight-up demand? provided it's not a selfish demand and would benefit the marriage? and i don't qualify it with this-is-what-will-happen-if-you-don't?
can i just ASK HIM TO STOP IT BECAUSE IT WORRIES ME AND MAKES ME SAD??

boring update re NEEDS-MEETING CAMPAIGN and SHUNNING LBs: i recommend skipping for reasons of PARALYZING ENNUI.

FS: I�m doing serious domestic support out the wazoo. Steam-cleaned the carpets, washed the windows, pulled all the weeds on the patio, trimmed branches of trees, stripped and sanded a dresser, I call him when he gets off work so I can have dinner of his choice on the table when he gets home.

FC: I�ve got the girls all day, plus I oversee all the boring procedural stuff�baths, snacks, chores. We read together as a family every evening and play board games a couple times a week.

FS$: I�m going back to work in September when the girls go to school, and I�ve been running my options past him so we can avoid schedule conflicts, etc. In the meantime I�m freelancing, kinda sporadic, and keeping our budget craaazy tight.

SF: twice daily, weather permittin�. I can�t impose boundaries on him to protect against a tetaliatory affair, but I can wear him out.

Affection: I scratch his back when he�s watching tv in the evenings and hug him in kiss him a few times a day, plus give him little compliments and do little courteous things: lay out his slippers and whatever book he�s reading, warm up a towel in the dryer while he�s showering. Just little nice stuff.

AS: it occurred to me that I look exactly the same as I did during my affair. So he sees the same girl, see? I asked how he�d feel if I were to change my hair�I�m getting extensions next week, (he loves long hair) and making sure I�m dressing in a way he likes.

O&H: I�m being honest but not terribly open. I mean, I�m being open about my day-to-day feelings and plans and stuff, and my activities and correspondence are an open book�but I still have a hell of a hard time expressing displeasure or asking for things.

Admiration: this is interesting�we were talking over the weekend and I told him all the serious, hard-core stuff I admire about him�the stuff I listed in previous post. I told him I just wanted him to know that�s the way I saw him, and that I didn�t know if I had done a good job of expressing how much I admired him. He was silent for a long time and then he said, �that makes me�really uncomfortable.�
?????Go figure?????

Conversation: This isn�t really his thing, but I�m not ruling it out�better safe than sorry. I give him 45 minutes or so to relax when he gets home, and I make it a point to engage him on the most interesting conversations possible�ideas, asking for advice or opinions, pitching theories. Plus I get up early with him in the mornings and blather about my dreams when I�m all half-asleep and loopy and he loves it�come to think of it, that�s one of my favorite times to talk to him�have coffee and just blather insanely before the girls even wake up.

AVOIDING LBs: OK, he hasn�t identified any of my LBs, but I can tell you what they are.
AOs: I don�t do this.
SDs: I�ve never made a verbal demand on him, but it occurred to me that my decision to stay home this summer, even though it�s been really good for him in some respects, has realllly stretched him thin and increased his overall stress level. And when he�s stressed over circumstances, it affects his ability to enjoy life. He�s subject to �provider guilt� no matter what I say to dispel that�it�s just the way he is. So I need to do my part to create circumstances that allow him to relax about money. Ideally I�ll make slightly less than him and work hours that allow me to handle the kids� carpooling and still take care of the domestic stuff.

IB: I haven�t really had an opportunity to engage in any IB lately. I�m viewing this as a chance to introduce POJA in an practical, �applied� fashion�like, asking him about what he�d like me to do with my hair, asking him about my career choices and how they could affect our family and him in particular. I�m prepared to guard against IB when temptation does arise.
DISHONESTY: again, not much to lie about these days, but I�m trying to learn to be open with him because failure to trust him w/ my feelings, etc is an implied DJ.

DJs: I try not to criticize or belittle, but my failure to ask him for anything or to give him honest opinions or objections for fear of his reaction�ISN�T THAT A DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENT IN AND OF ITSELF??? is that what you guys have been trying to get me to see? That by refusing to tactfully call him out on what I perceive as HIS disprespectful judgements, I�m basically treating him as though he were a condescending and insensitive jerk BY NATURE???

Remain,

Yep, you have got that one nailed.

Ok, let�s have a look at what you said. You said I think you see being open with him as confronting him with complaints or disagreeing with him. I don�t see communications as confrontations.

Notice something I just did in those last two sentences???? I used �I� so that you realize that this is my problem/understanding of something rather than yours. It is a very effective way to discuss something without it sounding like an attack.

So let�s go a bit further shall we? You said This one is sooooo easy. Each and EVERY time he does this, you say stop! You cannot tell me any more than I can tell you what to feel. What you hear is how I feel and then you leave the room. You do this without fail every time he critiques your feelings. You have failed to communicate to him how angry/hurt/frustrated/and diminished you feel when he does this so he continues. Your feelings are not a subject of debate or his evaluation. Same with your wants although stating anything as a �want� sounds like a demand or a critique from you. This one is easy. YOU SIMPLY DON�T PUT UP WITH IT.

You also said Ok, if want to see quiet you should see how I am when I am mad. If you want to see deadly, you should see how I am when I am attacked, silence doesn�t begin to describe it, it is total focus on accomplishing my goal, the destruction of whoever is attacking me. Men tend to get angry and loud about things that annoy them but are not serious, they tend to get silent as things become more serious, and they for the most part become silent around women because violence which is often not far from the surface is not acceptable to them or society when it comes to women. In short, his response is pretty normal.

Another piece of advice, men don�t fear silence like women seem to do. Silence does not bother us much at all and we KNOW that it does women so if they are on us for something,, �yes dear� and no more, works well. :p Now the real issue is he reacting to things that should NOT be bothering him, but do anyway? That is something to discuss with him. If you have a good sense of humor you might try that when he goes silent but I think leaving him alone to sort himself out is often best.

You also said See the first part of my answer to his approach to your feelings. You tell him when he hurts you otherwise he doesn�t know. As for counseling, yes by all means but with a pro-marriage counselor.

The following statement is a Disrespectful Judgement, DJ, You don�t know how he will react, but if he does this, simply ask him where he got his degree in counseling or if he feels he is so skilled he why he cannot communicate with you instead of lecture you? Just ask and then walk away.

I�ll end with this. You asked Whether you are the WS or the BS you can NEVER make a straight-up demand. Make demands and/or issuing ultimatums is calling someone out for a fight. Your marriage, my marriage, no marriage needs a fight. What you can express is something along the lines �When I hear� I feel as if I have no value and I am left to wonder what my role in this marriage really is.� Notice the I statements, notice the implied mention that you are evaluating your role and the implication you will make decisions on appropriate actions. Note you have expressed what is bothering you as well. Never corner someone unless you want a fight, never make demands because it forces someone to either fight or back down. In either case you are not making your relationship a positive one. Always leave them the option of doing the �right� thing.

You can express to him that some actions worry you, you can defend your boundaries such as not having your feelings disected. Those are good things to do.

Remember I asked you a lot of questions earlier. The reason was to see if there are ways under his defenses. Go back and read what I and Stanley have written now, and I think you will see where you are being guided to. New perspectives mean you will see your H in new light. You will see more strengths, but you will also see more vulnerabilities which often explain his reactions to things.

I must go, but please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

these are all boundary issues! one can avoid DEVELOPING chemistry by not buddying up to members of the opposite sex. one can refuse oneself the opportunity. one can QUIT BEING VERY FRIENDLY. i could have avoided my affair, and i chose not to. Darwin's lasso did not compel me. i made a choice.
constantly tempted, but now wary of sources of temptation. call it aversion training.
"Staaaan. The Memes-meister, talkin' some meeeeemes, makin' some copieeeees." OK, OK, seriously though: No family history of adultery of which I'm aware. but even if there were, i am really leery of pursuing that line of thought--biological and cultural influences are FACTORS, for sure, but it comes down to personal responsibility. even if my ancestors did nothing but cheatcheatcheat like randy minks for 40 generations, even if their earliest hieroglyphics depicted adulterous tribesmen slaying adulterous buffalos, that wouldn't absolve me of responsibility for my actions.
how much could you trust yourself if you believed your behavior was dictated solely by your genetic makeup and your heredity? hmmm, and wouldn't that give one license to indulge in all manner of base behavior? what if you were descended from a line of thieves, or brawlers, or just plain old JERKS? "i've got a gold-en tick-et.."
(insert singing smiley-face here)
what's your angle, Professor? how much stock do you put in the "Darwinian soft-wiring" theory? i'm inclined to dismiss it.

one step ahead of me, there, JL! THANK YOU!!!

I agree, memes do not play a role here.

How about?

1. Need for admiration
2. Being friendly
3. Struggles with monogamy
4. Impulsive, risk taker
5. Thrill seeker
6. Issues with H (see your prior posts)


You are already quite savvy about MB principles and very wise about everything else in life. I also love the fact that you understand rationalization and justification quite well. However, one can still justify even if one knows the meaning of justification.

Basically I see an unstable element that needs to decay into a more stable form.

What do you think?

Note: Not implying that the list is good or bad. In fact, I believe the list has common traits that apply to many.

You said in the 1st post of the thread:


As per your discussion with JL. You cannot open to H.

Shall I add that to the list?

1. Need for admiration
2. Being friendly
3. Struggles with monogamy
4. Impulsive, risk taker
5. Thrill seeker
6. Issues with H (see your prior posts)
7. Cannot be open w/ H

OK, 1 and 2 are boundary things. now that i know what i'm doing--being indiscriminately social is being EMOTIONALLY PROMISCUOUS--i can simply stop. i'm considering working for a very non-glamorous and low-profile non-profit, in fact, to avoid ADM-OPS. (that's "admiration opportunities", like it?)
if i make H my only legitimate source of admiration i'll have to depend on him more, and i'll wind up doing more of the stuff that HE admires in me. (plus it'll bring in enough to ease his immediate $ stress without screwing up the provider dynamic.)

3,4,5 i crossed out because they describe stuff that i'm INCLINED to but that i've always fought and don't indulge. even outside of adultery, there's not much room in our marriage for impulsive behavior and thrill-seeking.

6 and 7 are communication things and i haven't had tried JLs suggestions yet. there are some things i just need to grow up about, and that's one of them.


i see what you're saying. for us to be AFFAIR-PROOF, it's not enough to just avoid temptation. we've got to have a happy marriage as well.

is that scary or what. maybe they really COULD tell something about me that i didn't know. at any rate, i'm prepared to spend the rest of my life proving the smarmy little jerks wrong.

my time was screwed up. it should read 3.5 years ago. D-Day was november 08. also, what a despicable, pious little whiner!

I could be wrong, but for some folks infidelity is unavoidable and if they want to remain faithful they must behave like folks that belong to AA.

Do you think you can stay out of the bar where they serve booze for the rest of your life?

Not saying you are like an alcoholic, but it is something to ponder. I also do not believe you will cheat again. However, anyone can have an affair------including me.

I think i already asked this question, but here it goes once again. I ask because your posts suggest a mismatch.

Are you and H a mismatch? Sorry, but reading your posts to JL brings this point to the surface.

What you saw at age 18 is not what you see today.

BTW, why did you marry at age 18?


Well you were 18 when you got married and then there is that list. BTW, some of those points in the list apply to my wife who was 19 when she married me. However I was 23.

Remain,

You don't need to seek situations where your character is admired, where your talents admired. That was never the point. The point was that becoming vulnerable because you are admired is selling yourself...cheap. You should enjoy admiration, but you must also recognize it from your H as well and not only accept it, but acknowledge it to him.

Here is something for you to think about. You married young, especially in my book. I was 31 and my W 25 when we married. So you see my bias here. However, when people marry young they, as do anyone else but especially young people, either grow together or they grow apart.

Why are we focusing on the young part. You might well have been a mature young lady when you married, but I KNOW that you are more mature now and you will continue to grow into who you really will be in the coming years. Your H like many guys probably didn't really mature until his early 30's. He may have tried to act more mature than his age, but maturity isn't just about age. It is about brain development, and experience. Most guys are sort of "iffy" until around 30, even if they behave well in their 20's.

So given that you both have and are changing. Given that you have added children to the mix. Given that your H has gone through a variety of careers and you have had an affair, isn't it a given that you two really need to decide to grow together?

The conversations I mentioned to you in my last post are me pointing out that as a mature and worthy woman you must value and protect your boundaries. Your H as a mature and worthy man, must do the same. However, this does not mean you draw lines in the sand, it means you both discuss, plan, and execute a plan to bring happiness into each others lives.

Stanley knows this as do many of the BS' here. They don't want a spouse walking two steps behind with their head bowed. They want a partner, they want someone they can depend upon and talk with and plan a future with. Your H wants this if he is worthy of the title of H. You should want it if you are worthy of the title of W. The only issues are how to get there.

The info on this site offers ways to get their. But, it doesn't happen unless you get over your fear of your H and speak to him from your heart. Tell him what he is doing great at and where he is falling down. You need to hear the same from him, but you two need to be a team.

Have you read Harley's four rules for a good marriage? If not do so. Print them out and show them to your H and discuss them. Use them as a blue print for you two to discuss how you would like your marriage to proceed. Your H is an intelligent if slightly arrogant man. He thinks he knows alot.

Look at my login name. I chose it when I came here 11 years ago, because frankly I (in my 50's) clearly did not know as much as I should have about relationships and you know what? After 11 years here I am still "just learning". I come here to learn and see things in a new ways. It is true that there are definite patterns to how people handle things, say things, and do things, which is why MB works, but it is also true that as you see the patterns you begin to change your perspective on things.

So think more about the communications, but also read Harley's four rules for a good marriage and let's talk.

God Bless,

JL
PS: Have you noticed how many people have been reading your thread? It means that many are learning from your experience and are interested in you being a success.

That would mean staying away from all males for the rest of my life. so, NO. i think if i were an inveterate cheater, an addict, i would have done it before. there are hundreds of opportunities for everyone, every day. what i CAN do is try to be satisfied with my husband...and try to make sure he's satisfied w/ me. as i said, i THINK i'm meeting his ENs, but i can't be sure. all i can do right this instant is keep us both SFed to the gills so we don't have the PHYSICAL temptation. if you're worn out, you can't be restless, is my thinking.

YES, we're a mismatch. we're a TERRIBLE mismatch--right now. but i never told him so, i just tried to change myself to keep up with him. i played the game, and instead of TELLING HIM when i'd reached my threshold for faking it, i went and cheated instead. my rationalization was that it wouldn't be fair to ask him to change himself, it was probably impossible, etc etc, but i never gave him a chance to show me. he might BE willing to change. our personalities may be incompatible forever, but if we can adapt our behaviors to accommodate one another, then we retain our true selves and still make each other happy. so, to recap--it would certainly seem that we're a rampant, glaring, erroneous mismatch, but THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE. see?

i'll have to find my original post about getting married so young--in short, i didn't FEEL 18. i felt that i could go toe-to-toe w/ most 30-year-olds re life experience, smarts, etc. i felt very sophisticated and very much a grown-up, and i even remember thinking, "wow, who ever would have thought i would FINALLY settle down?" LMAO!!! basically i was PRECOCIOUS without being particularly MATURE.

you and your wife go waaay back to when you guys were teenagers, right? i read your original archived thread...sounds like she was a "likely candidate" given family history, etc., but she's faithful now, and you guys are happy together. what kind of incompatibilities did you guys have to overcome? expectations of each other, etc.?

here's my fear, stan--i'm going to be 100% candid. if my husband had been the one to stray, i would have immediately used it as an excuse to divorce him. i would not have fought for the marriage, because i didn't want to be married to him anymore. i was frankly shocked that he wanted to stay married to me. i still didn't like him when i found this site. now i'm realizing that we actually have a chance, that it's not impossible for me to happy WITH HIM, and to make him happier than he ever expected. i've got to try--married almost 9 years and i'm just now giving it a proper try???

we have radically different concepts of what marriage is for and what it entails. you've read what i want; you know the classic biblical model. I want that. In a secular sense, quite simply, I want us to be each other's favorite people. he sees marriage primarily as a stable foundation for raising kids. sometimes it sounds like he loves the INSTITUTION of marriage, but that he didn't realize that being married meant having a wife.

My wife waited 30 years before her affair and she probably had many opportunities. Let me add that she is a beautiful woman and always got the attention of men. I had opportunities too, but somehow did not have an affair. When my wife had the affair we were passing through a good moment, in fact our marriage was probably a 9 out of 10. Our firts marriage counselor thought my wife was nuts for cheating. The so-called distance between us developed when she started her EA. And that is part of rewriting history.

What I am trying to say is that anyone can cheat if the planets are aligned. Opportunity, the right conditions, and a willing cooperative affair partner. It is not so much that the WW decides to have an affair. The affair comes after there is emotional separation from the H and emotional connection with OM. For some that may take all of one night and for others it may take a year. But, the affair is not the problem. The problem is the deceitful behavior and the lying. Let me put this way. If there was a thing as affairs withou deceit life would be different.

So it may be more than the struggle of monogamy.


I knew my wife since she was 5 years old because we grew up i the same neighborhood. Lets talk about memes, LOL: Everybody in her family cheated. Therefore, I was doomed. In any event I had success for 30 years.

My wife's cheating had nothing to do with me as a person. In the end she would have done this to any other man. However, she never had compatibility issues with me. If she had said half of the things you said about your H I would have divorced her.


Obviously, your affair is different.

Does your H knows you feel this way?
If I was your H I would want to know.

OH NO. THIS is what a WAYWARD wife says all of the time to her Betrayed Husband. If that were so true? Then, your BW could just go find a DIFFERENT wife. He wants to try to save THIS marriage. The one with YOU in it. Stop putting judgments onto him that are NOT there. Has he ever told you that he only wants to have the INSTITUTION of marriage and NOT you?

MB CREATES compatibility in a marriage. A couple BECOMES incompatible through their actions pre-A. A couple not meeting each others ENs start living an incompatible lifestyle. Hence, any couple that experiences infidelity had an incompatible lifestyle.

i've asked before why he married me. not just out of the blue, mind you--last time was our 7th anniversary and we were in reminiscing mood...and he told me:

"after meeting my family", he was "confident we would have attractive and intelligent children".

i was a "warrior", a "trooper", and "not like all those other women who think their husbands are gonna going treat them like princesses."

that i was tough, and "didn't use tears to manipulate men."

that he had initial misgivings about my maturity, but that i "proved myself". and that his family agreed.

that i was "versatile and able to adapt to different circumstances without acting out" and that i was "at ease in all different social situations" so i would be be able to hold my own in public "regardless of what career path i pursue."

welll...that sounded to me like "good breeding stock, cleans up nice, doesn't whine too much, doesn't ask for too much, presentable enough if i decide to go into politics."

but he said the whole thing in this loving, nostalgic tone, like he really meant it. and it was our anniversary, i wasn't going to ruin it by saying WAIT a second, WTF?? are you kidding me, that's why you MARRIED me???

i've done my best to live up to it. and i want to continue to do so without disillusioning him, but i don't know how to ask for anything without becoming ONE OF THOSE WOMEN.

i know, i know--i just clarified in my post below. he DOES want to be married, TO ME in particular, he's told me so specifically. but the qualities he describes are not what i've got. so i've tried to be that, not to disillusion him, and it's killing me.

scotland, he has told me before that he wishes everyone would go back to the system of arranged marriages so that women wouldn't have these unrealistic expectations of their husbands. and he's included me graciously in the fortunate group who DOESN'T have unrealistic expectations of their husbands.

i don't want to disabuse him of this idea. i want him to be proud of me. i don't want him to think i turned out to be a demanding little princess after all.

i want to meet his needs so well that he gets receptive to meeting mine, without me ever having to tell him i HAVE needs, let alone tell him he's not meeting them.

Okay let me look at this a bit differently for you, shall I?


Doesn't that sound a LOT better than what YOU heard. THAT IS why he married you. BECAUSE HE THINKS YOU ARE GREAT.

BTW, sorry about the colour choice, I won't use THAT one again.

He HAS been PROUD of you. He sees things in you that you may not. Following MB plans and concepts will help you NOT be demanding but still sharing that you DO have needs and that he was not meeting them and you would LOVE for you BOTH to meet each others needs and have the most fulfilling marriage you could ever imagine. You could and WOULD become the ENVY of everyone because you would have the marriage most people dream of, IF you work the plans.

I am sorry but I don't remember a lot of your sitch right now, where are you at?

Scotland, i swear to you i'm not a weeper, but i'm shedding real-live tears.

was that residual fog-blather? was i just spouting resentful nonsense about my husband?

i so want him to love me. i want to do so much better than not "disabuse him of that notion." yet here i am being frickin snotty about something kind he said that i chose to misread.

i have so far to go.

THANK YOU!

You married him because he admired you. In fact he used typical OM smoothness to give you the admiration you wanted.

You also show a strong desire to please so you can get admiration in return. You want to be a perfect wife. I would not be surprised if you also wanted to be a perfect mate in the affair.

Within the context of looking for admiration I understand why my wife's OM was such a physical mismatch. All she cared about was the admiration. Thank God I dated her when we were teenagers running on teen hormones.

Is your inner self similar to your outer shell? Just checking.

I'm currently engaged in a modified reverse Plan A: over-the-top meeting of all his needs, fabulous attitude, lots of flirting, excellent cooking, kids out of the way, lots of sex.

not talking about the marriage per se; saying a lot of stuff like, "hey, d'you know what i'd LOVE to do?" "ooh, you know what i'd LOVE to do with you?"

positive reinforcement out the wazoo for any behavior i like; pleasant neutrality for stuff i hate. (and then i vent most pathetically and dishonorably on here after the fact. ;))

i feel really good and really confident about what I'M doing, and i'm at a chicken impasse when it somes to asking him to stop doing this or start doing that.

he seems really comfortable w/ the current condition of our marriage. he is of a strictly DEATH TO ALL PROGRAMS mentality, so all MB concepts are being introduced verrrry obliquely and w/out terminology.

i am not. i need to find a tactful, sweet, loving way to get what him to see what i'd like from him. eventually.

quite simply, i...am...scared.

but let me hasten to add, read my recent posts re boundaries and lack thereof, and what i see that needs fixing on MY part. it's not all evil fogulous ranting about H. we've come a long way.

You are married to a man that believes arranged marriage is the way to go. OTOH, you are a hopeless romantic that wants attention and admiration.

The root of your affair is visible from three miles away on a foggy day.

Are you in love with your H?

Or do you love him, but are not in love with him?

These are difficult questions, I know.

BTW, I wanted to divorce my wife after D0day, but could not act. I was paralyzed and choose the path of less resistance-------------work on the marriage. A much easier thing to do after age 50. Not sure what I would have done in my 20s with my entire life ahead of me.

Your H needs counseling .

i often doubt it. i worry about mark twain's quote that by the time we're 40, we all have the face we deserve. i hope i can get good enough by then to earn it. it would be hard to get ugly enough to match my actions. i'm vain. i better shape up.

Do you think that maybe you feel like he doesn't love you because YOU don't FEEL loveable? Like you don't DESERVE his love because of who YOU are? Maybe because you don't feel good enough for him? Just throwing that out there.

Awaiting your answer to this one.

i know the "I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You" spiel is so widespread among waywards it's got it's own acronym. i've never pulled that card on him, and i never will.

i told you in previous posts that i try to convey the impression that not only do i love him as a choice and conscious action, but that i am IN LOVE with him. because that's what I want. i'm a sucker, if he would go through the motions i would never know the difference.

H needs counseling??? a counselor can't make him fall in love with his wife. but maybe his wife can.

... as long as she confines her dishonorable b****ing to this forum and keeps it out of his face.

like Ozzy said, no more tears.

"WHAT IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION, NUMB***S? ARE YOU GONNA STAND THERE WHININ' LIKE A LITTLE ***** OR ARE YOU GONNA GET IN THERE AND MEET SOME NEEEEEEEDS?"

YESSSS. did you read my thing re admiration, the need thereof? my ultimate conclusion was that if i want his admiration, i need to become more admirable. scroll back a few pages, you'll see it...it;s a reply to JustLearning, my Dutch Uncle...i'll quote it in a sec...

here's what's missing: when i originally filled out my own ENQ, i felt like i craved affection and conversation, primarily, followed by conversation, SF, and attractiveness. (thankfully, i can take family commitment and honesty pretty much for granted. he's an extremely solid family man.) i just realized that H IS QUITE affectionate, he's ALWAYS been affectionate--he hugs and kisses me, extends me little courtesies like bringing me coffee, fluffing my pillow when i lie down, doing nice little things--being totally honest with myself, i get all the affection i need. something was lacking elsewhere that made me feel unloved.

i surprised myself. I NEED ADMIRATION. it never occurred to me before, but you know why? because if you view emotional adultery as seeking to fulfill your emotional needs outside of your marriage...i've basically been in a great big emotional affair with the entire world ever since we got married. i've always gotten all my admiration needs taken care of at work or with friends. i feel INHERENTLY valued, respected, and appreciated in other relationships. then when i come home, i've gotten all that out of my system so i don't feel any lack and i can concentrate on what HE needs. and what has given me an opportunity to get all that admiration from everyone else on the planet? recreational companionship. spending time together doing fun stuff, relaxing, being yourself, talking. and what does one need in order to pursue fun stuff? money. do we make enough? no. when we did, it's because i was earning more than him and had a substantial chunk of my own in the bank (in OUR names, of course). and did he feel like his role as primary breadwinner had been usurped, and did he get unpleasant and grudging? yes. did that make us want to spend more time together? no. our newly disposable income enabled to me to pursue independent behavior AND console myself with the rationalization that it was his money too and he had the freedom to whatever he wanted with it. my career at the time was a really good one. in fact, it's one that H wanted. i didn't know that when i took it. my career required lots of networking, which got me utterly drunk with admiration, which further fueled my entitlement, and enabled me--REQUIRED me--to hang around with other outgoing, chatty people with common goals, interests, and experiences.

i'm treating this forum like a flippin diary right now. i'm just working out for myself what i'm anxious about. ok: after my affair (which was a one-night stand, by the way, after a 1.5 year way-too-close friendship) after my affair i turned into a total recluse. i didn't want friends, i didn't want to talk, i didn't want to have fun--i wanted to disappear. i put all my effort into being a technically good wife, which i could do distractedly but without resentment because i HAD no emotional needs. maybe i was unconsciously trying to break my addiction to admiration??? by not associating with anyone at all except on the most superficial level, maybe i was denying myself the opportunity to be admired? speculation.

anyway, me staying home w/ the kids this summer has ensured that H is the SOLE breadwinner, it's forced me to break my habit of independent behavior, and it's given me the chance to focus on the domestic support stuff that he values so highly. problem is, i have to go back to work when summer's over.

my internal boundaries are set on Strictly Business, and i find the idea of ever again committing adultery, be it physical or emotional, positively repugnant. i'm not worried about myself in that regard, because i'm so guarded and wary about it.

my problem is...i THRIVE on admiration. i'm GOING to get admiration by default when i go back to work. and we're going to fall right back into the dynamic of get-your-needs-met-elsewhere-so-you-don't-act-needy-towards-your-husband.

i told my husband a few nights ago, when the subject came up ("you still doing any reading on that MB website? i'm glad you're learning so much."), that i'd realized that admiration is my thing, and that i'd been hesitant to tell him because, as i hastened to assure him, he's great with compliments and thank-you's, but i haven't felt particularly VALUED by him, and i felt silly telling him because as i said before, that's not an instance where it requires a change in BEHAVIOR on his part, it would mean changing his FEELINGS towards me, and that's MY responsibility.

he gave me this patient sigh and said, "well, honey, that's a self-esteem issue, i've always told you how much i love you..." and i felt like saying ARRRR!!! IT'S NOT A FRICKIN "SELF-ESTEEM ISSUE"!!! I TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT I'M INHERENTLY VALUABLE, AND SO DO OTHER PEOPLE!!! I WANT YOU TO VALUE ME!!!

now i regret telling him, because now he thinks i'm crazy, AND because he immediately tried to explain away my greatest desire with a half-baked pop-psych you've-got-issues remark.
what in the heck is wrong with someone wanting her husband to respect, appreciate, and value her??? i don't technically NEED it, i've gotten by without it for our entire marriage, but it's very, very unpleasant to think: "hmmm. everyone likes me except my husband." it makes me wonder if maybe he knows better and that maybe other people find me likeable because they don't live with me. but being fair and trying to maintain some measure of objectivity, i think it's more likely that he's indifferent to the qualities i typically get admiration for. so, maybe i am inherently valuable, just not to him. what do i do???

ehhh. too much to quote. the admiration stuff and subsequent conclusions start on page 14 or so.

yeah, in real life i'm a writer...Dr. Seuss? perhaps you've heard of me?

Sorry, I am a slow reader and sometimes VERY forgetful(especially as we get closer to the middle of the month, need a B12 shot soon).

I am trying to read your thread from the BEGINNING again so I can give you some HELPFUL advice. Please be patient.

I do see that MelodyLane suggested you getting yourself a plan for recovery WITH your husband and some radical honesty, how are you coming with those things? Sorry if you already answered. I will keep reading.

you betcha. the first few pages are slow going, i wasn't being very open.

i personally have a plan. but H is emphatically anti-counseling and anti-program, so i'm trying to slip it in under the radar. it's covert. sort of like you enacted your STUNNING plan A.

radical honesty--in fact, honest of any sort--has been lacking in our marriage from the git-go. we can't move forward w/out it. unfortunately, it's going to be virtually impossible IN OUR CURRENT STATE. eventually, if i keep up the unconditional support and needs-meeting, he will relax to the point i can introduce it. then comes POJA (which i've been trying to introduce in an "applied" sense, i.e., what should i do with my hair, what career should i pursue).

i wish we could just give ol' Steve and Jennifer a holler right now and get some proper mediated counseling underway, but it's not going to happen.

i've already brought us back to pre-affair conditions, but pre-affair conditions are, as you said, inherently incompatible and unsustainable. he likes me as much...AS BEFORE. he trusts me as much...AS BEFORE. he feels like we're OK. i don't think he knows what he's missing.

no radical honesty YET.

Admiration is the easiest EN to meet in the planet.

I tell my wife she is beautiful and talented and she vibrates with joy. I can see her eyes smiling and her self esteem climbing to high altitude. I can compliment 10 times in a row and there is no tolerance to the compliments--------------she wants more and more. I always could get her aroused very easily with admiration. If we went to a party and she received admiration by other men she would get aroused and want SF when we got home.

Crafty OMs recognize women that crave admiration and they certainly know what to say. I have never been an OM, but since the affair I have learned to identify women that crave admiration. I can see why they fall for the smooth compliments.

Any woman that craves admiration is at risk for an affair.

You have your work cut out for you and your H needs to understand this. BTW, giving admiration can be a lot of fun because one is always rewarded.

RN:

You had SF only once and H knew right away. He had you under surveillance for some time. Could he be watching you now? I bet he reads everything you type here.

I think he is also daring you. He certainly dared you before. He could have stopped the affair before SF.

Somehow this thread seems to be drifting off without focus. Remains you need a plan what is your plan?

JL

RN:

You posted this about OM a month ago:

#2385987 - 06/05/10 11:40 PM Re: will i feel like this forever? [Re: MelodyLane]



Then on #2400511 - 07/04/10 08:40 PM Re: everything LOOKS happy...what's my deal? [Re: Stan-ley]


RN:

It is no big deal to me if you are making up a story. When reading stuff in the internet one never knows for sure and folks can write anything they want. It is possible to have a philosophical discussion whether your story is a fable or the truth.

Maybe you learned about OM's death last week. But, like i said--------it does not matter as long as we learn something.

"making up a story" is just a sugar coated word for LYING.

That doesn't bother you?

You spend time helping a person only to discover that it has been a LIE all along...that wouldn't bother you?

committed

x

people, that's why i didn't feel it worthy of mention in the first place. If you read my original post you'll see that i didn't look it up to confirm it. hearsay was enough for me. but i jolly well bet my husband has confirmed it, or if he found out otherwise he's satisfied that i believe it.

this may sound cold-hearted, but i don't care to look it up. i find it easier to proceed on the platform that he is in fact dead.

plus as far as sheer fabrication, how much sympathy do you think that's likely to generate? if i were making up stories for attention, wouldn't i have chosen to be a betrayed wife? i don't want people leaving this thread with the impression that i'm a drama queen and a liar.

This is the Internet.

I can only react to the words in the screen and hope they are sincere.

If she makes up a story it is all about her own issues. This is certainly not about me, why should I be upset.

Maybe we can both learn something.

In any event it is likely RN discovered the death or her OM in the last couple of weeks. Lets wait for her reply.

Then why did you say you could contact him easily enough if you wanted to if you were "proceeding on the platform that he is in fact dead"?

he read my thread for the first few days, then told me he would let MB be my thing. sometimes i halfway hope he is reading stuff, but there have been a few posts that i deleted because i knew i was being unfair and i wouldn't have wanted him to see them.

i hope he did read my thing about how i admire him. i hope he didn't read my Ned Flanders comment.

No problem from my side. I just thought that the death of OM was thrown in there like a "no biggie". BTW, ity would be hard to fabricate a story like yours. That is why I said what i said.

the bit about being able to contact him was from a month ago, the first night i started posting.

what do you say we end this on a more relevant note:

THE PLAN:
Care and Time for H: Meet H�s needs consistently. ASK for input. I can�t count on an overtly positive reaction, because if H is content he�s likely to not say anything, and I don�t want to cross the line between meeting his needs and annoying behavior. Ask: �hey, would you rather�?� �Do you like it best when I ____ or do you prefer ___?�

Protection for H: Refrain from LBs, ESPECIALLY my worst habit, even more insidious because I don�t express it to him: constant internal DJs that affect my perception of him even if I don�t say anything. Quit assuming the worst about his motives, meanings, attitudes, beliefs, intentions. ALLOW myself to see him through a �happy filter��assume he means the best.

Care and Time for ME:Take the lead�if I want my needs met, engage him, invite him, do stuff for HIM that also makes me happy. When he meets my needs, even by default, massive positive reinforcement�show him it makes me happy. (by default: i.e., we work on a project together=rec companionship= �I love hanging out with you.� We wind up talking=conversation=be as fun and animated as possible, look him in the eye and say, �I love how your mind works.� He brings home something from the store=domestic support + affection=big hug and kiss, �you�re so sweet/thoughtful, thank you for thinking of me, babe�.) this is also a way to silently work in POJA�eventually, if we take for granted that we CAN have fun together, the mechanism won�t matter and it won�t be a big deal to say, hey instead of ___, what do you say we try ___?

Honesty and BUILDING TRUST for H: ok, he has transparency re activities, correspondence, GPS, etc., but I don�t think he checks it�remember, he didn�t have MB either so I think he still feels guilty for �checking up� on me. remember, we were big on implicit trust. I�m doing stuff like leaving my email screen open and staying signed in, asking him, �baby, while you�re on the computer can you pull up my account and check my inbox?� asking him if he could please hang onto my phone while I�m in the shower and answer it for me. if I�m going somewhere on a long errand (groceries, for instance), I�ll ask if he wants to come. He doesn�t, why would he? So I�ll take the kids. If I have to go meet a client or something (i.e. leave the house for an undefined period of time dressed to the nines) I�ll call him immediately afterwards and tell him how it went. I want him to TAKE FOR GRANTED that couples don�t have secrets, that I don�t feel the need for privacy.

Honesty (and Negotiation) for H and I: Bounce lots of ideas off him�part of expressing O&H, partly giving him lots of opportunities to disagree. �What if I�?� �How would you feel about�?� �What are your thoughts on�?� BE OPEN. Show him how I listen and consider his opinions. Basically, learn to disagree gracefully and resolve conflict rather than avoiding it. Give HIM plenty of chances to disagree and REACH A MUTUALLY SATISFACTORY AGREEMENT rather than letting us each go do our own thing independent of the other. Ask him about his plans for the yard, the house, business ideas�give him a CHANCE to be open about future plans, and let him know I love to hear about it.

Protection: Use JL�s strategy re dismissing HIS DJs�which may in all fairness NOT reflect disrespect or condescension�EXAMPLE BELOW
OK, I can�tleave the room when he�s talking to me, under any circumstances. He perceives that as EXTREEEMELY disrespectful and manipulative. No DJ on my part, I�ve tried it, along time ago. Here�s what I did, though�this past weekend actually--other day we were discussing something, it was theoretical and purely speculative and we both had opinions on what COULD happen, and he got all condescending and started the whole �of course you would believe that� spiel, and rather than quietly seething, I said, "you know, YOU�RE RIGHT. I have no way to know if my theory is valid, because it�s a theory. And of course my ideology is informed by my background and upbringing and education; that�s why I like to hear what you think about it. I�m not trying to talk you into seeing things my way�it would be pretty judgmental of me to dismiss your opinion out-of-hand, and it show a lack of respect for your background and education and upbringing to attack you for your opinion." He relaxed. I made it about ME.
End of argument, resume friendly debate. Tiny step. We haven�t discussed anything personal since, but when it comes up I�ll try the same thing.
JL, I think you�re on point regarding veneer of toughness, afraid of letting his guard down�you don�t let your guard down for people you�re not comfortable with. My goal is to make him comfortable.

H tells me we're invited to a poker game this weekend. low buy-in, costs less than a date. but it's an hour away, and it's going to run late, but they have lots of spare rooms, we can sleep over. i'm thinking, sounds fun and all, but we're on a tight budget, can we do something else besides GAMBLE?? (plus i don't play poker because i'm terrible, and even if we had $ out the wazoo i don't enjoy games of chance overmuch. because i'm terrible.) but H had apparently already accepted on our behalf. so:

me: OK, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: so, what are you thinking we should do? (obviously we're not bringing our kids to a late-night poker game.)
H: welll...
me: would you like me to keep the girls while you go to the poker game?
H: i'm not saying that, i mean, i don't want you to be stuck with the kids while i go out and play poker.
me: so what do you think we ought to do?
H: we could...uhhh...we could maybe put on a movie or something in the gameroom [at friends' house] and just let them hang out.
me: is anyone else bringing kids?
H: well, no, it's sort of a grown-up thing.
me: [fighting the urge to say, " a POKER GAME, really? NOT a family event, then? for real?] so would you like me to stay home with the girls? because i don't play, i would lose us money and double the buy-in, and i really don't want to come along in a babysitter capacity, and i think it's tacky to take your kids to a grown-up party anyway. who all's going to the poker game?
H: i don't know, so-and-so and whatchamacallit are invited but haven't rsvped, and mr. and mrs. thing are supposed to be there.
me: everyone playing?
H: well, yeah, but once you're out, you're OUT, so it's not like you'd just be watching us play.
me: so no one's bringing kids, and everyone's playing. i don't really dig the idea of coming along to watch the kids. if you want to go, though, by all means, go, we can hang out on saturday.
H: well...since i'll be spending the night i don't know what time i'll be back saturday.
me: hmmm. ok. do you have anything going on next weekend?
H: i don't think so...why?
me: i was thinking it'd be awesome to go to the [place we both like]. maybe get a babysitter and make an evening of it.
H: yeah, yeah, we could do that, definitely.
[he calls people who invited us to play poker and says, "yeah, i'll be there...oh, W? W doesn't want to go."]

how should i have handled that?

You did well! You did nothing wrong.

Your H is wrong. This is simple "How to read wives 101" and he failed.

If my wife said those words to me I would have known right away that it is not a good idea to go and play poker. My wife could beg me to go and I would not go.

This is how wives act when they are saying "don't go".

Does he know how to read you? Or is he playing dumb?

What H has done is a huge LB.

Stan-ley, gotta ask, is LYING also a HUGE LB?

Let me ask you RN, do you WANT him to go? I get a big NO. So why did you tell him it was okay? Also, what part of NO OVERNIGHTS WITHOUT YOUR SPOUSE in the MB plans did you miss?

There is so many things wrong with that WHOLE conversation, I don't know what to say.

he doesn't KNOW anout the whole LB thing. plus we've always done our own thing. he doesn't KNOW that's "independent behavior" and therefore an negative, because we've ALWAYS engaged in independent behavior.

I grew up w/ the idea that adults do not ask one another for PERMISSION, but that it was courteous to INFORM one�s spouse of your plans.
So asking, �hey, there�s [whatever event] Thursday evening; do you mind if I go?� was intended as a rhetorical question.
The ONLY valid response was, �Not at all, babe, have fun! Are they serving food, or shall I save you a plate?�
�I�d rather you didn�t go� just was NOT a valid response. As Miss Manners would say, it simply isn�t done.
We�re both in the habit of ASKING for permission re activities, behavior, etc, we�ve just never actually expected an ANSWER. we've never USED our respective veto powers.

i'm saying, how could i have turned that around with no wifely game-playing and counting on him to read my body language? if he'd just said, hey, you mind keeping the kids while i go out friday night? i would have been like, sure, no prob! out of sheer habit. why pretend it was some kind of couples thing that i chose to bow out of? and why tell other people i didn't want to go? that's dickish.

how could i have used that opportunity to say, no, i'd rather you didn't--but howzabout you n ME go out that night?

how do i get covert MB on him and start getting us on the same page?

me: ok, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: so, you don't want to go? me neither. Let's go to [place we both love]! i'll call [babysitter] right now while you call [people] and tell them we won't be able to make it. should i wear that one dress, with the, with the, YOU know?

better? or manipulative?

see my reply to stan,ley above--i can't hold H too accountable for independent behavior because he doesn't KNOW it's a bad thing. plus he tried (lamely) to include me. i've checked my IB, but that could be seen as just recompense. he hasn't given me a reason to distrust him, ever, so his IB hasn't come up. (we're only a month in and i'm still in Unconditional Sweetness, No-Questions-Asked mode.) his sister is on the guest-list, so i'm not overly concerned about the overnight thing,.

plus i WAS invited, technically, and declined.

My head is spinning, I am tired and I need to work in the morning. I will try to figure this out in the morning.

No. You�re really wrong on this. It�s not the mans job to �read into� what his wife really means when she says something. It is the wife�s job to say what she means and mean what she says. Having to read into things is just playing games and a trap.

i effing hate games. i mean, mind-games, not poker per se. what's a tactful way to introduce the concept of POJA?

see previous post re background and why i didn't straight-up say NO.

look, i don't MIND if he goes and plays poker this weekend. but you saw how gamey that conversation was. that's verbatim. i don't want to perpetuate that crap in our marriage.

i want to learn how to disagree in an appropriate fashion. i'm just barely getting my mind around disagreeing at all.

Mating will always be a game.

But, you also fear H.

There is not enough intimacy.

Then why are you playing them with your H? You didn't want him to go to the poker game alone. Yet - he's going. How did that happen? You went against your own thoughts and wishes in order to give him what you 'thought' he wanted. There was absolutely no honest discussion in your talk to each other.

I don't understand - why do you feel you need a tactful way to introduce such a healthy concept of POJA into your M? Because you're concerned that POJA will hobble your independent behaviors? IMO, behaving independently is a big reason why you are on this site right now. When you got married, you BECAME ONE. One flesh, one unit. Functioning as separate units will bring nothing but resentment and trouble.

And yes - I read your other post. You have learned a method of communicating that doesn't work - acquiescing. Acquiescing to your spouse to 'let' him to what he wants to do isn't healthy and leads to resentment.

Let's look at the very beginning of your convo with H and I'll show you where I think you went off the tracks:


Okay, stop right there. Why did you ask him what he was thinking you should do, and then supply the answer?

Let's try it again:

Okay, still tired but able to somewhat think now.

MB concepts are to be done as ONE plan and you must do the ENTIRE PLAN. You can't pick and choose which concepts you WILL use and which ones you WON'T. These concepts compliment each other. You must be "ALL IN."

Gotta ask, who aren't you being honest to? Yourself? Your husband? US? Either you DID care that your H is going on that trip or you DIDN'T. When I read your post, it seemed like you WERE upset. Then when you were questioned, you said you weren't and this is just an example of your IB.

My head is spinning. I dunno where you need the help. Might I suggest you re-read the articles and basic concepts on here. When you are done, why don't you ask for help with what you need to do to get your marriage on track?

I realized something awful last week: I�ve been abusing this forum. Not intentionally, I mean it like this: rather than meeting H�s needs and striving to build something deeper, I�ve been meeting H�s needs and not expecting a reaction, and then anxiously posting about what a good job I�ve been doing and how it's not having any effect.

Not expecting anything from H is a pretty horrible DJ. AND I�ve cared so much about being told by forum members what a smart girl I am, that I haven�t cared enough about whether H is giving me attention. If he tuned me out and went to go watch TV, I�d be like, screw it, I�m not going to impose UA on him, he's obviously not into it�I�ll just go post about how great I am and how he�s ignoring me. You might say i had an incipient EA going with MB. =)

That�s why I vanished. i've been FOCUSING on H instead of just doing a technically good-enough job to where i can post about all the good stuff i've done; putting my heart into meeting his needs AND giving him a chance to meet mine, which i hadn't been doing because i still had it in my mind and heart that he was a dyed-in-the-wool, four-star, nickel-plated ******** and would NEVER be willing or able to meet my needs.

After 8 years of putting on a happy face, and 2 years of self-imposed solitude (because I didn�t understand boundaries, but knew on some level that I shouldn�t trust myself around ANYONE after the A), I found it so comforting to vent anonymously that I�ve said awful things about H�and while it felt good to say them, it was a bad kind of good. Know what I mean? Anger empowers you, gives you a little of the old �fire in the belly�, but that�s only a good if it�s righteous anger. And I don�t have grounds for righteous anger.

This is scary to me: I�ve been a spin-artist since way before the A, and I realize that if I spin my words right, I could get someone on here to say what I�ve been wanting to hear: [bold]is your marriage WORTH recovering? If he�s always going to treat you like this, maybe you should pack up and head out.[bold] Good news is, I don�t want to hear this anymore, because I know it�s not TRUE.

And looking back at some of my posts, I�m seeing bitterness and rage and STRAIGHT-UP SLANDER�basically, all the foggy bull**** I would have liked to yell at H on d-day, I�ve just been yelling on here instead. Now that it�s out of my system I can see him for who he really is. He�s not the cold, judgmental, condescending jerk I�ve described. he's a good guy, and our marriage IS worth saving.

My plan I posted last week was composed and posted from a spin-mode perspective, but I believe it�s valid, and I�m enacting it. But I believe my motives are right this time. I�m not doing it so I can be an MB success story, I�m doing it because my husband deserves it and because I believe we can be a frickin FANTASTIC couple. For US, not for your approval. Which is what I was after before.

Thanks for listening, guys. don�t write me off just yet. i'll probably be posting in the middle of the night from now on, when h is knocked out.

i have hope. and it's not the doomed, resigned, hope-against-all-odds kind--the only thing stopping me from enjoying our marriage has been MY martyr-a55 attitude. i have proper hope.

Notice I stopped posting to you?

Now you know why? Let us know when you decide to get down to business.

JL

You weren't a spin-doctor, let's call it the way it is, YOU WERE LYING. You can' change something until you ACKNOWLEDGE it. NO sugar-coating allowed. Be honest with yourself FIRST and you will find it easier to be honest with everyone else.

Many people on here want to hear certain things and when they don't they RUNNNNNNNNNNN. You CAN instead LEARN. READ more things on here and see what you can learn. There are FWS's who post on here and have their stories for the reading and learning from. YOU need to do this. We can't MAKE you learn. We can't control what YOU do. All we can do is point you in the right direction.

Listen to JL, there is much to learn through the posts that were already given to you.

RemainNameless, how are you doing?

I hope your marriage is in the healing mode!