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thanks PM!

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Still waiting for the post d day events. At least the PG 13 version.


(ME) BS - 33YO
(HER) WW - 32YO
Married 7 years
DD5
D-Day - 5/1/10 (PA)
Exposure 5/7/10
Plan A 5/7/10 -
Plan B or Recovery on 7-1-10 Its in her court ATM
My thread
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Originally Posted by RemainNameless
i don't usually TJ myself, but you blinded me with science.

hmmm...a pattern of behavior that's somehow passed down despite your best efforts NOT to transmit it...a pattern that affects your children and your children's children and so on? i've heard that phenomenon referred to as a generational curse.

tom wolfe has a great essay on the "memes culture" w/in the scientific community in his book "hooking up." (mainly "making fun" of richard dawkins' "over-use" of "quotation marks" and "exclamation points!") OK--end of TJ!

what's FOO??

Whew! :::fanning myself rapidly::: I haven't absorbed this much high-falutin' learning since Theoretical Science 101!


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Originally Posted by princessmeggy
FOO= family of origin.

And that's my only contribution to this scientific discussion. smile

So we aren't talking about popular rock bands, then? dance2


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Example of memes:

Go find an American of Northern Italian ancestry whose family has been in USA for 6 generations.

Go find an American of German extraction whose family has been here for six generations.

They both grew up in the same town and have typical American culture.

If you do not know their names and if these two men look alike. Will you be able to tell who is of German ancestry and who is of Italian ancestry?

I suspect that after a very short time you will see a distinct difference in mannerisms and behavioral patterns.

End of threadjack


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Originally Posted by YEG
Still waiting for the post d day events. At least the PG 13 version.
alright, here goes--i was going to pretty this up, but i'm just going to wing it.
CONDENSED VERSION: i stayed because he scared me. it's worth it to me to get my mind right because my kids deserve a proper family. in short, i ACTED contrite way before i actually was. i REGRETTED my affair from the git-go, but i wasn't truly remorseful for a loooong time. i know it's awful to see your wife acting distant and indecisive over what should be a no-brainer, but you know what? she feels safe enough with you to let you see her at her worst. full version below. it's ugly.
my EA went on for about 1.5 years, and H always regarded it as a friendship. i was always open and honest about spending time w/ OM, and even pointedly invited H along (partly hoping to KEEP it a legit friendship, make OM a friend of the family instead of an OM...but also secretly knowing H wasn't in a social state of mind and trying to prove how innocuous and casual the whole thing was. shady wayward thinking)but when my EA turned to PA, H knew within HOURS. i have no idea how. our kids were spending the weekend w/ in-laws. it was a few days before Thanksgiving, and we were hosting dinner that year. I�d been nervous since I had gotten home. I felt like I was wearing an I JUST COMMITTED ADULTERY sign. So when H said , �hey, come sit w/ me on the patio, let�s talk,� I was realllly edgy. But H told me sadly that he felt like we�d grown apart and that he couldn�t be the husband I needed, and that it would break his heart to see me go, but that if I wanted a divorce he would work with me to make it as amicable and friendly as possible. He assured me he wouldn�t try to stick it to me financially, and that we could discuss how we wanted to divide things, and that we could do joint custody of the girls, one week with dad, one week with mom, and even family outings with his parents because they would always consider me a daughter. He said, let�s not tell the girls til after Christmas, let�s enjoy the season as a family �I sat there nodding and agreeing to everything, thinking how insanely lucky I was and how perfectly everything was working out.
We had everything all settled, I thought, and I was about to go inside and start looking at our accounts, and he said very softly, �W? I already know you f�ed him, but now I�m pretty certain that you love him. Sit down. There�s not going to be a divorce. I couldn�t make you obey all your vows, but I can ENFORCE the one that says �til death do us part.� Was he worth it?� He said if i opened my mouth to deny it he would not be responsible for whatever happened next. I was convinced. he told me how it was going to be: we would live as a family. there would be no further mention of the affair. If there was a single hint of any attitude or behavior he didn�t like, all bets were off. then he asked me which of us should die, himself, me, or OM? I realized that not only was he dead serious, I realized that OM was not just my little buddy, he was a dad, a son, a friend, and that it would be my fault if something happened to him. I started to cry and apologize, and H said "you're not sorry. you're sorry you got caught." he told me he would not tolerate me shedding a single tear over my little f-buddy in his presence. Ever. I told him i was crying over what i'd done, and he said �NO. STOP. NOW.� And i did. We talked for a long time. He asked questions and I answered them truthfully because I can�t lie well and I didn�t want to find out what would happen if I did. I think he was just confirming what he already knew and making sure I was telling the truth. He gave me a very scary, very quiet monologue about what he would have liked to do to me. the whole time I sat there, all: SIR YES SIR! But even then I was thinking, if he lays a hand on me and doesn�t beat me to death, I�ve got a golden ticket.My call to OM went like this: �you�ll never see me again. Do not text me, call me, email me, or look for me. EVER. You need to disappear. Goodbye.� Clean break. Shock and awe.
Basically, YEG, I never had a chance to indulge in any wayward acting-out. There was no discussion of what led me to cheat: I cheated because I was a cheater. While he was still in human polygraph mode, though, he did ask me why I hadn�t asked for a divorce. I couldn�t answer, and he was like �Say. Something. Now.� I told him the truth: �I didn�t want to kick you while you were down.� He laughed and laughed. He didn�t need to spell it out for me, how stupid that was .

I stayed because I couldn�t leave. I shaped up and started tailoring my behavior to H�s moods because I had to. I didn�t get time to think about whether or not to commit to the marriage. There was no consideration of whether or not to call OM when I was feeling lonely. I take the time to clarify all this because I guarantee you I had the same feelings and thoughts as every other WW on this planet, I just had a lot more at stake than the marriage so I made my decision on the spot.
On the pro-side, we hosted thanksgiving beautifully. We had a picture-perfect Christmas. We went to charity galas and stuff together. We built bonfires and had marshmallow roasts for the neighbors. I baked and kept the house OCD-grade neat. We did a lot of entertaining. I got a new job after the holidays and a swift promotion. On the con side, I cried in the shower, ran till my body-fat percentage dropped into the low teens, and shoveled dirt for no reason whatsoever until I pinched a nerve and lost the feeling in my arm for days. I found that speed drills w/ a heavyweight bag took the edge off, but after a few weeks I got a stress fracture and couldn�t punch anymore. I took my company laptop home every night because I NEEDED to work to exhaustion to clear my mind. I slept maybe 3 hours a night. I had nightmares. I was pretty darn certain I was losing my mind, in fact, and I couldn�t tell ANYONE. That was the first 8 months. I was terrified all the time. I�m a GREAT over-compensator; my girls still talk about stuff we did together during that time and how much fun it was. If they didn�t pick up on anything I guess I did a good job. Thank God. One day I just couldn�t take it anymore. I didn�t get scared, I got furious. i told H there was nothing on this planet I hated worse than a bully, and that being mean didn�t win him an extra measure of respect. I told him that yes, bullying gets you obeyed, because it gets you feared and hated. I told him �I probably shouldn�t be tipping my hand like this, but I don�t care anymore. your bullying makes me want to quietly put away enough money to get myself and the girls the hell out of your house.� he clenched his fists and took a step towards me and i looked him in the eye and said �I wish you would.� If I had filed for divorce while he was in that mindframe, it would have been hideous, it would have hurt the girls horribly, and he had the leverage to take a lot of money from me. All our stuff is in his name. I had �co-mingled funds� because I had always viewed money as OUR money, whatever the source, meaning I had no assets of my own and no pre-nup.

I didn�t want to post this because obviously I emphatically do not endorse it, and also because it makes my H sound HORRIBLE. He had never scared me before that day, and he hasn�t scared me since. He�s never hurt me and I don�t believe he ever would. He�s never even raised his voice to me. I still can�t cry in front of him, though. Like, I can�t physically do it. And every time he�s stressed or upset and he gets really quiet and still, my heart starts racing and I start racking my brain to see if I�ve done anything that he could be mad at me for. And I still hate Thanksgiving and Christmas, which is really, really sad.
I bounced back because eventually people DO get their conscience back after they commit adultery. And in a practical sense, by the time I was no longer running on adrenaline, it occurred to me that if I could keep the good-wife happy-family act up for that long, why not get my mind right so it wouldn�t be an act anymore? i am not a success story. if H and i had the benefit of plan a and plan b, i'd have behaved like the appalling wayward brat i was, but when it was over i'd be GRATEFUL for H's second chance.

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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Originally Posted by princessmeggy
FOO= family of origin.

And that's my only contribution to this scientific discussion. smile

So we aren't talking about popular rock bands, then? dance2

the Meme Fighters, you mean? Richard "Rockin" Dawkins and the Screamin' Memes?

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RN:

Obviously BH was spying on you and waited until you went from EA to PA to give you D-day. For me that is hard to understand. If I had done any spying during the EA phase I would immediately bring on a D-day. I don't see the point of more spying once there is an affair going on. He was waiting to see if you would cross the line to PA.

On D-day I told my wife the following: Call your OM and leave the house, we are done.

I thought about our children and told her: "Don't worry, I will not tell the kids that mom is sleeping with OM". Simply leave and we will make some other excuse for the divorce.

She declined the invitation to leave the marriage, showed remorse right away and worked very hard on the marriage. We posted here simultaneously for a long time. She gave me SF constantly and somehow I survived. Without constant SF I would not have survived.

Your H seems like the type of man that inspires intense fear in many women. I don't know what to say about him because I don't know him. Do you think he would have done something violent? Perhaps he was bluffing. I was not there-----I cannot tell.

IN any event keep up the good work. Thanks for your story! You are growing very rapidly.

I am still concerned as to why your H allowed the PA.

Last edited by Stan-ley; 07/01/10 06:11 PM.

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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
RN:

Obviously BH was spying on you and waited until you went from EA to PA to give you D-day. For me that is hard to understand. If I had done any spying during the EA phase I would immediately bring on a D-day. I don't see the point of more spying once there is an affair going on. He was waiting to see if you would cross the line to PA.

On D-day I told my wife the following: Call your OM and leave the house, we are done.

I thought about our children and told her: "Don't worry, I will not tell the kids that mom is sleeping with OM". Simply leave and we will make some other excuse for the divorce.

She declined the invitation to leave the marriage, showed remorse right away and worked very hard on the marriage. We posted here simultaneously for a long time. She gave me SF constantly and somehow I survived. Without constant SF I would not have survived.

Your H seems like the type of man that inspires intense fear in many women. I don't know what to say about him because I don't know him. Do you think he would have done something violent? Perhaps he was bluffing. I was not there-----I cannot tell.

IN any event keep up the good work. Thanks for your story! You are growing very rapidly.

I am still concerned as to why your H allowed the PA.

H is not a fundamentally scary guy. STUPID girls marry guys who intimidate them. if i'd seen even the slightest trace of a TENDENCY in him, i'd never have married him. he does NOT have a tendency towards violence. he has the CAPACITY for violence as much as everyone on this planet does. did he scare the hell out of me? yes. DOES he scare the hell out of me? absolutely not.

i believe my betrayal brought out facet of his personality that had probably never existed before or since. i'll never know if he was bluffing or not, but i also know i'm not going to test it.

that post was primarily for YEG's benefit--i didn't want him thinking i was a good example of how WWs "typically" behave. his WW sounds annoyingly indecisive, but she's as likely to bounce back as anyone, and she'll eventually appreciate just how patient and kind he was, knock on wood.

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Remain,

Apart from what I have said to you recently, what you described to YEG about your feelings or lack of them is very very normal. It even has a name, it is called withdrawal. Most WS's go through it. It very much is like drug withdrawal because the affair has altered your brain chemistry and it takes awhile for this to change back to normal.

The "high" of an affair is not dissimilar to a "runners" high and most WS seek that high even when they know it is wrong. It takes awhile for this to pass. It apparently has now passed in your case.

JL

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JL--

it took a while, but i do think i'm over it! hooray!

i'm really taking my time w/ the admiration thing. i think i've got it about straightened out in my mind, let me see if i can get in into coherent format.

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H is not a fundamentally scary guy

I am glad laugh

In my moments of anger I would sometimes tell my wife I was hiring someone to beat OM to a pulp. I was bluffing, but she probably took my words seriously rotflmao.

I would also ask God to kill OM and WW would freak out. A betrayed man can act strangely.

BTW, my wife went through a withdrawal, but she tried not to show the symptoms in front of me. In that sense she was like you.

Keep it up. You are doing an amazing job hurray.

BTW, pay attention to JL. IMHO, he is the greatest and most talented MB forum member. Study every word he says, that is your homework.


Last edited by Stan-ley; 07/01/10 07:18 PM.

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the Meme Fighters, you mean? Richard "Rockin" Dawkins and the Screamin' Memes?

Er,no. I was suggesting the Foo Fighters. Am I a loser, or what? dance2


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Originally Posted by Just Learning
...let me address how you see your H. You said
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you know, believe it or not, my husband is so unshakably admirable in my mind
Now if you take my description of admirable, is this what you want/need from a husband??? A pretty face, and man that is admired by others a man that is
Quote
basically, my husband is a vastly, vastly better person than i am, in all regards.
Is that what makes a good husband in your mind?
Being totally candid (and receptive to imminent 2x4s), I could be happy with H if he were less deep, less intelligent, less honest, less wise, and less moral. Ben Franklin was deep, intelligent, honest, wise, and moral. So�s the Dalai Lama. I�d prefer not to be married to either of them. I respect all those qualities immensely. They are ADMIRABLE traits. They�re things I�m really fortunate to have in a husband.
If H had time and energy to spend with me/on me,
if he were funny and charming and flirty even on the most superficial level,
if he would vent to me when he was unhappy or stressed instead of being a quiet pillar of stoicism (the implication being, yeah, i'm in a bad mood, but i feel better because YOU'RE here to listen),
if he would consider me�not just WHAT HE THINKS WOULD BE BEST FOR ME, but what I�d LIKE--when he made decisions that affect our family.
If he would RELAX and have FUN with me. I swear to you, it�s like he doesn�t know how to have fun. All the stuff we do together is either �Mandatory Fun� events that we�re invited to and we HAVE to go�stuff that IS fun, but that�s obligatory�or things we alllll do together as a family, girls included. It�s like he doesn�t want to be alone with me. that's how the whole POJA thing came up the other day--more later.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
You didn�t list what turns you on about him. You didn�t list that you really like how he loves you.
I�m not sure he does. I think he is committed to staying married. Sometimes I wonder if he�s testing me to see how committed I am, like to see if I�ll stick around in spite of circumstances... I think he�s committed to being the last man standing.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
...You didn�t list how he has handled that pain and insecurity that your affair engendered within him.
That�s because I sincerely cannot admire or respect the way he�s handled it. I know that�s an awful thing to say, because he had the right to react any way he saw fit. My betrayal negates all expectations of loving behavior on his part. I know I�m lucky to have him at all. And I�m EXTREMELY fortunate that he trusts me again. Or at least, he seems to trust me as much as he ever did.

Originally Posted by Just Learning
But�why do you LOVE this man? Why did you promise to LOVE, as in the action verb not the feeling?
Because I took a vow. As you pointed out, I didn�t vow to be forever infatuated with him or forever lust after him, I vowed to forever LOVE, HONOR, and OBEY him. I took that vow when I was in love. He has �outgrown� the superficial stuff that made me fall in love with him, but I�ve found him to be a way, way better man than the version I fell in love with.
Originally Posted by Just Learning
What do you seek from him that will make you KNOW he loves you deeply? What do you give him that allows him to know that you love him deeply?
i hate to say it, but i want the superficial stuff. i want him to flirt, wisecrack, be silly with me, show off for me. i want to catch him checking me out when i'm not looking, and i want to see pride on his face when we're out somewhere together. i want him to save jokes and stories to tell me in the evenings. i want him to kiss me like he can't help it, not pucker up like Ward Cleaver. and i want him to hang out with me just because he likes my company.

these are things i do for him IN ADDITION to the domestic stuff that's important to him. i do my darnedest to CONVEY THE IMPRESSION THAT I AM INFATUATED WITH HIM. i know how much i DETEST having things done for me when they're obviously being done out of obligation or a sense of duty, so i try to make it seem like i do stuff for him because i'm inspired to because he's so likeable/sexy/impressive/whatever. if you're going to make a show out of how you're going out of your way to do something nice for me, i'd rather you didn't do it at all, know what i mean? you don't act that way when you ARE in love.

other stuff i do just because HE likes it--he tells me he has zero need for affection, but he loves to have his back scratched when he's falling asleep, so i do it. would i like my back scratched every now and then? well, sure, who wouldn't. but i don't feel like i'm missing out. i'd rather have him look me in the eye and grin and tell me i'm cute or something. what does it MATTER if the house looks nice if you're going to go straight to your room and have your wife bring you dinner in there while you watch TV?? it's infuriating!!! i'm afraid that while i admire him immensely, i JUST DON'T LIKE HIM!!!
You had mentioned before that couples try to express love in the ways that we like to receive it, and it totally fits us, but i guard against it: Example--he says now that his biggest need is domestic support. OK, I personally think that�s boring and not very EMOTIONAL, not very intimate... But I will cheerfully channel all my creative energy into becoming the best domestic engineer on this planet if it makes him HAPPY. There�s only so happy you can be about a well-run household, though, I should think. I don�t WANT constant acknowledgement that �the floors are really shiny today, wow,� or �this steak is killer, good job��I want him to take all that domestic support stuff for granted so he can focus on what he likes about MEEEE. I don�t want him to be surprised and pleased daily by my housekeeping efforts. I don�t want that to determine how affectionate or sexy or loving he feels towards me. a comfortable and inviting house and good food should be the BACKDROP, not the main focus. Not to get whiny, but for real�if that�s what it�s all about, it would have been cheaper for him to hire someone.
I LOVE the superficial stuff�I flirt with him, I save my funniest stories and jokes for him, I make sure I look good for him, I do all the show-off the stuff you do when you LIIIIKE someone. I want him to HANG OUT with me, just shoot the breeze and enjoy one another. So, he has all the deep, true, admirable qualities. He�s pro-commitment, pro-honesty, pro-kindness. it just seems like he's just anti-fun. how do i get him to relax and get happy??? ASIDE from the obvious, please, i've got that covered.

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RN:

Everything is now clear. I think I understand why you do not love H. He does not meet any of your ENs.

Did you tell your H how you really feel about him? If my wife felt that way about me she would have divorced me years ago or had at least 20-30 affairs.

I know this is MB, but you guys are a mismatch. Now you know why you had an affair.

Why is H unable to meet your ENs of attention, conversation, and admiration?


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I understand some may say you are in the fog and rewriting marital history, but you sound way too smart.



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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
RN:

Everything is now clear. I think I understand why you do not love H. He does not meet any of your ENs.

Did you tell your H how you really feel about him? If my wife felt that way about me she would have divorced me years ago or had at least 20-30 affairs.

I know this is MB, but you guys are a mismatch. Now you know why you had an affair.

Why is H unable to meet your ENs of attention, conversation, and admiration?

yeah, we're technically a mismatch, going by INCLINATION. but if we each cultivate the inclination to show each other love first and foremost, it could still work beautifully. it sounds formulaic, but hey, who said "math is true"?

i don't think he's unable to meet my needs. i think he may not be naturally inclined to meet them, but neither am i inclined to be a domestic engineer. i can gin up an honest enthusiasm for it, though, if it means a happy life. if we reduce it to natural inclination, i'd probably have been better off as a trophy wife, and h should have married someone plain, quiet, and pious, with childbearing hips and a natural flair for servitude. well, we didn't. and we have KIDS. we HAVE to make it work.

i don't even think he's UNWILLING to meet my needs--in all fairness, he's been bending over backwards for me in his own way since we got married, as i felt i was bending over backwards for him--we were just going about it all wrong. we were working really hard to do the stuff for each other that WE each valued, and neglecting what the other actually wanted. we were both sacrificing our butts off and both feeling neglected and unappreciated. that shows that we CARED, that we wanted to make each other happy, and that counts immensely! now that i know what he needs, i'm happy to give it. and right now, it's still satisfying just to GIVE and appreciate his reaction.

maybe it's too early in the post-A game for me to think about what i need from him. i don't want to come on all demanding, because i'm afraid the unspoken subtext would be: "here's what you must do to prevent me from cheating." you know? i'll never cheat again, regardless of needs met/not met. and i want him to be totally confident of that, i want it established in his mind as absolute truth, before i even hint at what i want from HIM. i'm hoping it's just a time issue.

i WANT to be in love with my husband. i said on someone else's thread a while back that look: if i have adequate control over my mind to systematically dismiss a lifetime of moral training (adultery=bad) and deliberately instill a state of HALLUCINATORY foolishness (adultery=ME LIKEE), and then purposely undo it? i should CERTAINLY be able to convince myself that i'm in love with my husband. that should be a walk in the park.

phrase of the day: "make it so!"

p.s. the only thing i worry about would be asking him to change an aspect of his personality. i can generate a feeling if i work at it, but i can't make him express it in a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
I understand some may say you are in the fog and rewriting marital history, but you sound way too smart.

no 2x4s? can i come out of duck-and-cover stance?

i'm the first to admit i'm probably still feeling a trace of residual fog. looking back at my older posts, my tone is SO influenced by mood...even when i sound coherent and rational, if i sound fatalistic or i'm being unpleasant and dishonorable about H, you can probably write it off as fog. if i'm telling you something grim and unflattering about myself, it's probably something new i just realized thanks to JL.

let me warn you that i tend to sound entirely smarter than i actually am. grammar goes a long way.

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i WANT to be in love with my husband. i said on someone else's thread a while back that look: if i have adequate control over my mind to systematically dismiss a lifetime of moral training (adultery=bad) and deliberately instill a state of HALLUCINATORY foolishness (adultery=ME LIKEE), and then purposely undo it? i should CERTAINLY be able to convince myself that i'm in love with my husband. that should be a walk in the park.

As you know there is a saying in MB that says LOVE is a verb. If one does loving acts in a systematic fashion this can become a habit and then it is not a difficult thing to do. Eventually this loving acts generate positive benefits for the couple.

However, at some point there must be pleasure in meeting ENs. At some point there is also a need to feel the butterflies of romantic enchantment.

I provide a lot of attention and admiration to my wife and she works very hard to meet my ENs. Because I am grateful she interprets this as more approval and admiration and the cycle continues.

If your H gave you the approval and attention you seek you would work even harder to meet his ENs. It is a win-win situation. However, H is not there yet.

Will he get there?
Could he be resentful?



Last edited by Stan-ley; 07/01/10 09:36 PM.

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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by Stan-ley
[quote]
Could he be resentful?

resentful??? uhhh...ya THINK?? =)

that's why i said maybe it's too early in the game for me to think too much about what i need. i'm trying to derive as much satisfaction as possible from meeting HIS needs--sort of "the satisfaction of a job well done" kind of thing--and hope that as he sees my commitment, he'll begin to relax.

i'm trying to break myself of the perceived need for butterflies. like i said in my admiration post, maybe i just need to become more admirable. for GROWN-UP stuff. try to develop the same qualities he's got. maybe i hit the nail on the head before--maybe he has literally outgrown his appreciation for the little infatuation-type stuff, and i need to get wiser and more Ben-Franklinish before he CAN have any legitimate admiration for me.

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