D-Day was November of 08. H is anti-counseling, anti-program, anti-interference of any type. he's ok with me studying up, but he's a little wary. his attitude towards my studies re MB can be described as tolerant.

Scotland, it seems like we're as well off as we were before my affair. we're courteous and considerate to one another. we don't fight, we don't disagree in a disrespectful fashion. in fact, it's only recently that i learned to disagree at all. fact is, though, i'm not happy with that at all. can we sustain it indefinitely? yes. will i feel lonely in my own house? yes.

we're both firmly committed to STAYING MARRIED, but we have radically different ideas about what we want from a marriage. i wonder if my expectations are at all realistic, and i wonder how i can make him see how much certain things mean to me. i can only be so emphatic.

i'll expound further tomorrow--i've been thinking. thanks, scotland, and good evening.

Im sorry its rough. You cant push a rope though. Your going to have to find some way to reach him. I wish I knew that answer.



i dont think you sound entitled. You sound frustrated. Your needs arent being met. You are working in the system though. I think everyone has the right to a happy M. What people dont have the right to is if they get bored to go outside the M to meet their needs.

sorry for the pitiful tone of recent posts-you may know by now that i tend to post grievances and worries, then disappear for days at a time when things are going well. let me clarify my position.

i've embarked on a one-sided campaign to be the BEST wife possible, according to his ENs, plus making sure i'm covering the whole spectrum of ENs to see if he responds favorably to something he didn't specifically identify. imagine super-Plan A with an indefinite time-frame: many, many carrots and an absence of sticks. plus no relationship talk unless i can work it in sideways, offhand. i'm home for the summer with the girls, so i've been an over-the-top good SAHM: i mean, i'm refinishing furniture, baking bread twice a week, making homemade play-dough for the kids...i'm proud of myself because the domestic stuff is not my natural forte, and i really do find it satisfying because it makes him happy. when he comes home from work, i've got makeup on, the house is neat, and dinner's ready.

the good news is, my husband has been VERY receptive.

he's actively appreciative
(before i was so starved for affirmation i was constantly like, "does my hair look ok?...is dinner alright?...can i get you anything?...anything i can do?")
he's much happier and more upbeat in general
(he's been depressed and sullen and weary for 4 years now, and it's oppressive to be around someone who derives no comfort from your presence and who gives every appearance of wishing you would go away)
he's spending more time with me and the kids
(before i was always herding the girls out of his way: "let's let daddy rest, he's had a long day.")
talking to me more
(LOOOOVE to talk. before a conversation would go like this: "how was your day?" "fine." "do anything interesting?" "not really." "how did that presentation go?" "quite well, thanks.")
we're having good sex
(which was such a huge deal even a few weeks ago i started a whole thread about it)

in short, we're a very happy family. we get along admirably, have a good time with the kids. looking at the situation impartially, i'd have to say that we're probably happier than we've ever been SINCE WE'VE BEEN MARRIED. that includes before the affair. so, everything should be great, right?

well...i couldn't put my finger on what was missing. i thought maybe it was just residual fog on my part, or lingering reservations on his part. but it seems like he's super-satisfied, which is awesome. my Giver is having a field day. H is being really nice. i don't have anything in particular to be dissatisfied about. i need to think before i post what i think my problem is.

here's what's missing: when i originally filled out my own ENQ, i felt like i craved affection and conversation, primarily, followed by conversation, SF, and attractiveness. (thankfully, i can take family commitment and honesty pretty much for granted. he's an extremely solid family man.) i just realized that H IS QUITE affectionate, he's ALWAYS been affectionate--he hugs and kisses me, extends me little courtesies like bringing me coffee, fluffing my pillow when i lie down, doing nice little things--being totally honest with myself, i get all the affection i need. something was lacking elsewhere that made me feel unloved.

i surprised myself. I NEED ADMIRATION. it never occurred to me before, but you know why? because if you view emotional adultery as seeking to fulfill your emotional needs outside of your marriage...i've basically been in a great big emotional affair with the entire world ever since we got married. i've always gotten all my admiration needs taken care of at work or with friends. i feel INHERENTLY valued, respected, and appreciated in other relationships. then when i come home, i've gotten all that out of my system so i don't feel any lack and i can concentrate on what HE needs. and what has given me an opportunity to get all that admiration from everyone else on the planet? recreational companionship. spending time together doing fun stuff, relaxing, being yourself, talking. and what does one need in order to pursue fun stuff? money. do we make enough? no. when we did, it's because i was earning more than him and had a substantial chunk of my own in the bank (in OUR names, of course). and did he feel like his role as primary breadwinner had been usurped, and did he get unpleasant and grudging? yes. did that make us want to spend more time together? no. our newly disposable income enabled to me to pursue independent behavior AND console myself with the rationalization that it was his money too and he had the freedom to whatever he wanted with it. my career at the time was a really good one. in fact, it's one that H wanted. i didn't know that when i took it. my career required lots of networking, which got me utterly drunk with admiration, which further fueled my entitlement, and enabled me--REQUIRED me--to hang around with other outgoing, chatty people with common goals, interests, and experiences.

i'm treating this forum like a flippin diary right now. i'm just working out for myself what i'm anxious about. ok: after my affair (which was a one-night stand, by the way, after a 1.5 year way-too-close friendship) after my affair i turned into a total recluse. i didn't want friends, i didn't want to talk, i didn't want to have fun--i wanted to disappear. i put all my effort into being a technically good wife, which i could do distractedly but without resentment because i HAD no emotional needs. maybe i was unconsciously trying to break my addiction to admiration??? by not associating with anyone at all except on the most superficial level, maybe i was denying myself the opportunity to be admired? speculation.

anyway, me staying home w/ the kids this summer has ensured that H is the SOLE breadwinner, it's forced me to break my habit of independent behavior, and it's given me the chance to focus on the domestic support stuff that he values so highly. problem is, i have to go back to work when summer's over.

my internal boundaries are set on Strictly Business, and i find the idea of ever again committing adultery, be it physical or emotional, positively repugnant. i'm not worried about myself in that regard, because i'm so guarded and wary about it.

my problem is...i THRIVE on admiration. i'm GOING to get admiration by default when i go back to work. and we're going to fall right back into the dynamic of get-your-needs-met-elsewhere-so-you-don't-act-needy-towards-your-husband.

i told my husband a few nights ago, when the subject came up ("you still doing any reading on that MB website? i'm glad you're learning so much."), that i'd realized that admiration is my thing, and that i'd been hesitant to tell him because, as i hastened to assure him, he's great with compliments and thank-you's, but i haven't felt particularly VALUED by him, and i felt silly telling him because as i said before, that's not an instance where it requires a change in BEHAVIOR on his part, it would mean changing his FEELINGS towards me, and that's MY responsibility.

he gave me this patient sigh and said, "well, honey, that's a self-esteem issue, i've always told you how much i love you..." and i felt like saying ARRRR!!! IT'S NOT A FRICKIN "SELF-ESTEEM ISSUE"!!! I TAKE IT FOR GRANTED THAT I'M INHERENTLY VALUABLE, AND SO DO OTHER PEOPLE!!! I WANT YOU TO VALUE ME!!!

now i regret telling him, because now he thinks i'm crazy, AND because he immediately tried to explain away my greatest desire with a half-baked pop-psych you've-got-issues remark.
what in the heck is wrong with someone wanting her husband to respect, appreciate, and value her??? i don't technically NEED it, i've gotten by without it for our entire marriage, but it's very, very unpleasant to think: "hmmm. everyone likes me except my husband." it makes me wonder if maybe he knows better and that maybe other people find me likeable because they don't live with me. but being fair and trying to maintain some measure of objectivity, i think it's more likely that he's indifferent to the qualities i typically get admiration for. so, maybe i am inherently valuable, just not to him. what do i do???

i'm rescinding my "formerly" until i can be proud of what i say about my husband.

Ah Remain,

What are we going to do with you? Huh?

Here is the deal as I see it. You want admiration, fine. You earn it, enjoy it. You want admiration from your H, fine. You earn it, enjoy it. You listed all of the things your H was against, but you did not list all of the things your H was for.

My point? Well it is a bit subtle. Do you admire your H? If so why? Men, often mix admiration with love. We often cannot love a person we don't admire. Men often use the term "respect" rather than admiration, but think about this.

What is wrong with the folks in the world admiring you. You say you won't need it from your H, I say yes you do. But, here is what you need to think about. Harley founded this site because often well meaning people tried to meet their spouses needs, but missed the target. They missed because they didn't know their spouses needs, OR they tried to meet them as they would like them met and not how the person receiving them wanted them met.

You need admiration, fine get it. You want your H to admire you, fine. Why don't you admire him? Why don't you talk about how you admire what he does. You tell us that he feels bad because you earn more than him. You tell us that he feels less of an H/man because of this. Yet you are the one bringing it up.

It reminds me of a Dr. Phil show where the women on the panel were talking about how THEIR accomplishments intimadated men and they could not get dates. I watch and my first reaction were that they were not that accomplished, but further why would any man want to date a woman who on the first date presented them with their resume? Heck, why would a woman want to date a man that did that either unless she was a gold digger?

Anyway my thought is that your H could use some admiration. My thought is that your perspectives on things need to change, but I will also say your perspectives have change alot since you have been here and for the good. You should be proud of yourself. Do I "admire" you, not really. I do "respect" the efforts you have made and the changes that you have accomplished.

Now which would you like? My admiration, or my respect? I'll give you a clue. You want my respect, admiration is a fleeting thing and I don't spend much of my life "admiring" people or what they have. I find it a lot like greed, I want what you have. So in my book go for the respect.

Just thoughts. I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

precisely what you're doing, JL--help me get my mind right. as i said, i'm rescinding my "formerly" status until i can quit this irrational resentment of my husband.
No, that�s just it�I get fawned over by the public for superficial stuff. I get acknowledged by my husband for doing things that make him happy. Maybe I�m just addicted to positive attention in any form and need to BECOME VALUABLE to him before I can feel valued.
This is significant, actually�he�s all for MB as far as what it�s enabled me to understand about him, and about marriage in general. He seems favorably impressed with my efforts to meet his emotional needs, and I THINK I�m doing a good job, because he�s showing an ACTIVE trust towards me�which requires not only overcoming my betrayal, but it�s a step up from the PASSIVE , implicit trust he�s always shown. He recognizes now that I have the CAPACITY to betray him, and he still believes that I won�t. I like to think that�s because I�m proving my commitment every day with my actions and my attitude. that�s a BIG DEAL.
This deserves a whole �nother post�to follow shortly.

You think it�s inherent? Like, he MUST respect me on some level or he wouldn�t be able to love me and therefore stay married to me?
I also say yes I jolly well do! That�s what I�m saying, I JUST RECOGNIZED this dynamic, this pattern�I never realized I adored admiration, because it was so easy to get that elsewhere that I never felt a distinct lack from my H. i don�t WANT to flirt with the world at large and be praised for my show-offery�IF I KNEW DEEP-DOWN THAT MY HUSBAND VALUED ME, I WOULDN�T FEEL THE NEED TO SEEK ATTENTION FROM OTHER PEOPLE.
No no no no no, you misunderstand. I only earned more than him for one brief season in my life. He�s always been PRIMARY, and we both like it that way. He likes to be the provider, and I like to feel provided-for. He�s way more educated, his resume is irreproachable, I�m emphatically NOT the breadwinner. in short, it was a FLUKE that I got that job. He was more qualified, I just charmed the interviewer. I�m just saying, during the time when I DID earn more, briefly, I got disgustingly proud about it and it made me feel wayyyy too independent.

JL!! OUCH!
gosh, i hope so. I re-read my initial posts and wanted to punch myself in the nose. Now that I�m not fog-blind and I KNOW my perceptions are out of true, how do i change my perspectives???
i'm not. yet. One day I�ll earn it.
i try not to paint too flattering a picture of myself on here; so i can take that compliment graciously because you've seen the absolute worst side of me and still find my efforts worthy of respect. my personal semantics lead me to associate admirable with honorable, and i'm NOT honorable. Yet. I thank you sincerely, sir.
JL...i didn't really start thinking hard until this part... I�m thinking�the stuff for which I get easy recognition, attention, plaudits, is SUPERFICIAL. Which brings me back to my original line of thinking: if I want to be admired for anything deeper than my appearance and wit�I just need to become more admirable.

you know, believe it or not, my husband is so unshakably admirable in my mind that i took for granted that everyone else knows he's inherently admirable. so i just realized that because you've only seen my side of everything, he's coming across in a really poor light. here's why my husband is admirable, so you guys can get a better idea of him--i'm going to compare us in some respects:

he has an essential depth that i lack. (i have more "muzzle-flash", but he has more PRESENCE.)

he has integrity in all aspects of his life. he's the same person all the time. (i have a tendency to cultivate different personas to fit different situations.)

he's really, really, REALLY intelligent, but he doesn't seem to have the inclination to show off or make people feel stupid. he uses his intelligence to impart knowledge rather than generate applause.

he is a wonderful dad. i could go on all day about this. suffice it to say, he's a wonderful dad.

he is kind, patient, generous, forgiving. he's wise.

he has the type of moral fortitude that allows him to do the rught thing even when there are no external monitors. that's what i mean by INTEGRITY. i have always trusted him implicitly even in dicey and tempting situations: he's a good-looking guy, and his previous role in the ministry required him to serve as the crying-shoulder and voice-of-reason for lots of hot single mommies, and i never had any misgivings--because he is...GOOD.

basically, my husband is a vastly, vastly better person than i am, in all regards.

if i haven't conveyed my admiration for him, it's because i forgot you guys didn't know him. if you did, you would admire him too.

RN:

You are a great woman! I am impressed with your desire to fix your marriage. You are very mature for your age and your H is a lucky man even if you had this affair.

Affairs happen, we are all wired to have affairs because humans are not strictly monogamous. We all want monogamy, but we are also wired for polygamy. So there is a struggle at all times regarding this.

BTW, my wife had an affair after 30 years of marriage and I was Captain America whereas her OM was a fat slob. Why did she do that? Because some folks have affairs to meet their ENs.

IMO, admiration is the type of EN that makes men and women prone to affairs. You are an accomplished attractive woman, but I can see you need validation and attention. Your H did a poor job in giving you the attention you needed.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with wanting admiration. Most folks like to be admired, but for some this is very important. Some of the most beautiful women in the galaxy need to hear someone else tell them they are pretty. Some of the most intelligent men in the world need the wife to tell them they are smart. That is the way it goes.

You said your H also wants admiration. Well---------------give him admiration at all times and soon he will do the same for you. I have learned to give admiration and now is a habit and easy to do. When you admire your loved one you are also doing a lot of good for yourself because that person is your mate.

In your first post you said you still love OM despite hermetic NC. The reason you fell that way is that H does not meet (or did not meet) your ENs.

CIAO

Remain,

Let�s talk about a few things in the first of the two posts you made. You said at the end of the first one
People admire a beautiful woman, and more specifially they may admire her face, her feet, her other body parts. Some men might admire another man that has a beautiful woman on his arm, or a man that drives a hot car. Admiration is as you said superficial. Your need for admiration troubles me because with time you change all people change. I would like to tell you that I look like I did at 20 years old. 45 years later I don�t and the changes are starting to happen faster now, very discouraging. If people admired me for my phyique, then I would have lost that. I am no longer the college athlete I was. If people admire me for my intellect, then that is changing as well. I am far more experienced as a researcher, but I can tell you that my powers of concentration are not the same. I cannot sit down at the desk and then realize 4-6 hours have passed as I focused on my research. If people admired me for the how my W looked 34+ years ago, then things have changed as well. She is almost 60 now. In my eyes she is still a beautiful woman, but that is because I see more than what other people see.

You see I love my W but what is more I respect her�deeply. Heck she put up with me for all of those years.

What you think you seek from your H, admiration, is not what you should seek. Yes, I know you want him to think you beautiful and I would bet lots of money he does and will as long as he loves you and RESPECTS you. The admiration you seek is in fact superficial. The respect you should seek lasts a lifetime. AND importantly to you, the respect starts with you respecting yourself. You don�t need or want people to �covet� what you have, that is admiration. You want people to respect who you are. You want them happy to have you in their lives. And you want people around you in the same way.

You said It was a compliment and I am glad that you have accepted it. You see I and others can learn to respect you without having ever seen you. I think that is important. You say you are not honorable. I wonder, are you saying you have done something to bring dishonor to you in the past, the affair, or are you saying you still act without honor now? I will quote to you from Robert E. Lee. He said It is subtle and it can be changed. You can be and are probably now a woman that acts with honor. You failed once and you recognize it. You are acting to rectify it now. That is an honorable thing to do.

Remain, you are moving right along and I think as you do, your H will see you in an entirely different light. Keep up the good work.

I�ll respond to your other post with a new one.

God Bless,

JL

Ok Remain,

Now we get down to really fiddlin with your perspectives on things. So let me address how you see your H. You said Now if you take my description of admirable, is this what you want/need from a husband??? A pretty face, and man that is admired by others a man that is
Is that what makes a good husband in your mind. You listed a lot of very positive things about your H, but what you did not list is what you respected. You didn�t list what turns you on about him. You didn�t list that you really like how he loves you. You didn�t list how he has handled that pain and insecurity that your affair engendered within him.

You did list that he is steady, smart, a great father, and a man that you can count on. Something he has proved via you�re A. In short is the kind of man people will respect and want as a friend right?

But�why do you LOVE this man? Why did you promise to LOVE, as in the action verb not the feeling? What do you seek from him that will make you KNOW he loves you deeply. What do you give him that allows him to know that you love him deeply? I ask this last one because often what we do is predicated on what we want. This is the essence of Harley�s whole approach, that we often do for others what we want, but it isn�t what the other wanted.

I�ll leave this for you to answer, and then we�ll start �fiddlin� with your perspective a bit more.

God Bless,

JL

Stan--are you "Mr. Memes"?

No, I am not Mr. Meme.

However, memes play an important role in affairs.

meme   [meem] Show IPA
�noun
a cultural item that is transmitted by repetition in a manner analogous to the biological transmission of genes.

Regarding affairs and memes:

Think about FOO.

I got nothin'.

self-inflicted TJ in progress! memes are theoretical, MB. Marshall McLuhan came up w/ the IDEA in the 50s and Richard Dawkins pitched it as biology rather than sociology in the 80s or 90s, i think. before they were called memes they were called "culturgens." the idea being that your DNA retains a genetically transmitted memory of your ancestors' THOUGHTS and patterns of behavior. memes don't physically exist.

i agree that if your parents are adulterers, you're more likely to be one yourself, but i think it's way more likely that it's a learned behavior than a genetically ingrained pattern. it's not Mendelian.

i don't usually TJ myself, but you blinded me with science.

hmmm...a pattern of behavior that's somehow passed down despite your best efforts NOT to transmit it...a pattern that affects your children and your children's children and so on? i've heard that phenomenon referred to as a generational curse.

tom wolfe has a great essay on the "memes culture" w/in the scientific community in his book "hooking up." (mainly "making fun" of richard dawkins' "over-use" of "quotation marks" and "exclamation points!") OK--end of TJ!

what's FOO??

FOO= family of origin.

And that's my only contribution to this scientific discussion.