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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
He had you under surveillance for some time. Could he be watching you now? I bet he reads everything you type here.

he read my thread for the first few days, then told me he would let MB be my thing. sometimes i halfway hope he is reading stuff, but there have been a few posts that i deleted because i knew i was being unfair and i wouldn't have wanted him to see them.

i hope he did read my thing about how i admire him. i hope he didn't read my Ned Flanders comment.

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Originally Posted by RemainNameless
Originally Posted by committedandlovi
"making up a story" is just a sugar coated word for LYING.

That doesn't bother you?

You spend time helping a person only to discover that it has been a LIE all along...that wouldn't bother you?

committed

people, that's why i didn't feel it worthy of mention in the first place. If you read my original post you'll see that i didn't look it up to confirm it. hearsay was enough for me. but i jolly well bet my husband has confirmed it, or if he found out otherwise he's satisfied that i believe it.

this may sound cold-hearted, but i don't care to look it up. i find it easier to proceed on the platform that he is in fact dead.

plus as far as sheer fabrication, how much sympathy do you think that's likely to generate? if i were making up stories for attention, wouldn't i have chosen to be a betrayed wife? i don't want people leaving this thread with the impression that i'm a drama queen and a liar.

No problem from my side. I just thought that the death of OM was thrown in there like a "no biggie". BTW, ity would be hard to fabricate a story like yours. That is why I said what i said.



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the bit about being able to contact him was from a month ago, the first night i started posting.

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what do you say we end this on a more relevant note:
Originally Posted by Just Learning
Remains you need a plan what is your plan?

THE PLAN:
Care and Time for H: Meet H�s needs consistently. ASK for input. I can�t count on an overtly positive reaction, because if H is content he�s likely to not say anything, and I don�t want to cross the line between meeting his needs and annoying behavior. Ask: �hey, would you rather�?� �Do you like it best when I ____ or do you prefer ___?�

Protection for H: Refrain from LBs, ESPECIALLY my worst habit, even more insidious because I don�t express it to him: constant internal DJs that affect my perception of him even if I don�t say anything. Quit assuming the worst about his motives, meanings, attitudes, beliefs, intentions. ALLOW myself to see him through a �happy filter��assume he means the best.

Care and Time for ME:Take the lead�if I want my needs met, engage him, invite him, do stuff for HIM that also makes me happy. When he meets my needs, even by default, massive positive reinforcement�show him it makes me happy. (by default: i.e., we work on a project together=rec companionship= �I love hanging out with you.� We wind up talking=conversation=be as fun and animated as possible, look him in the eye and say, �I love how your mind works.� He brings home something from the store=domestic support + affection=big hug and kiss, �you�re so sweet/thoughtful, thank you for thinking of me, babe�.) this is also a way to silently work in POJA�eventually, if we take for granted that we CAN have fun together, the mechanism won�t matter and it won�t be a big deal to say, hey instead of ___, what do you say we try ___?

Honesty and BUILDING TRUST for H: ok, he has transparency re activities, correspondence, GPS, etc., but I don�t think he checks it�remember, he didn�t have MB either so I think he still feels guilty for �checking up� on me. remember, we were big on implicit trust. I�m doing stuff like leaving my email screen open and staying signed in, asking him, �baby, while you�re on the computer can you pull up my account and check my inbox?� asking him if he could please hang onto my phone while I�m in the shower and answer it for me. if I�m going somewhere on a long errand (groceries, for instance), I�ll ask if he wants to come. He doesn�t, why would he? So I�ll take the kids. If I have to go meet a client or something (i.e. leave the house for an undefined period of time dressed to the nines) I�ll call him immediately afterwards and tell him how it went. I want him to TAKE FOR GRANTED that couples don�t have secrets, that I don�t feel the need for privacy.

Honesty (and Negotiation) for H and I: Bounce lots of ideas off him�part of expressing O&H, partly giving him lots of opportunities to disagree. �What if I�?� �How would you feel about�?� �What are your thoughts on�?� BE OPEN. Show him how I listen and consider his opinions. Basically, learn to disagree gracefully and resolve conflict rather than avoiding it. Give HIM plenty of chances to disagree and REACH A MUTUALLY SATISFACTORY AGREEMENT rather than letting us each go do our own thing independent of the other. Ask him about his plans for the yard, the house, business ideas�give him a CHANCE to be open about future plans, and let him know I love to hear about it.

Protection: Use JL�s strategy re dismissing HIS DJs�which may in all fairness NOT reflect disrespect or condescension�EXAMPLE BELOW
Originally Posted by RemainNameless
CONSTANT, SUBTLE, CONDESCENDING DJs: arguing with me when i talk about what i WANT[or believe]. telling me why it's unrealistic to WANT it [or why it�s stupid that I believe it].
Originally Posted by JustLearning
This one is sooooo easy. Each and EVERY time he does this, you say stop! You cannot tell me any more than I can tell you what to feel. What you hear is how I feel and then you leave the room. You do this without fail every time he critiques your feelings. You have failed to communicate to him how angry/hurt/frustrated/and diminished you feel when he does this so he continues. Your feelings are not a subject of debate or his evaluation. This one is easy. YOU SIMPLY DON�T PUT UP WITH IT.
OK, I can�tleave the room when he�s talking to me, under any circumstances. He perceives that as EXTREEEMELY disrespectful and manipulative. No DJ on my part, I�ve tried it, along time ago. Here�s what I did, though�this past weekend actually--other day we were discussing something, it was theoretical and purely speculative and we both had opinions on what COULD happen, and he got all condescending and started the whole �of course you would believe that� spiel, and rather than quietly seething, I said, "you know, YOU�RE RIGHT. I have no way to know if my theory is valid, because it�s a theory. And of course my ideology is informed by my background and upbringing and education; that�s why I like to hear what you think about it. I�m not trying to talk you into seeing things my way�it would be pretty judgmental of me to dismiss your opinion out-of-hand, and it show a lack of respect for your background and education and upbringing to attack you for your opinion." He relaxed. I made it about ME.
End of argument, resume friendly debate. Tiny step. We haven�t discussed anything personal since, but when it comes up I�ll try the same thing.
JL, I think you�re on point regarding veneer of toughness, afraid of letting his guard down�you don�t let your guard down for people you�re not comfortable with. My goal is to make him comfortable.

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H tells me we're invited to a poker game this weekend. low buy-in, costs less than a date. but it's an hour away, and it's going to run late, but they have lots of spare rooms, we can sleep over. i'm thinking, sounds fun and all, but we're on a tight budget, can we do something else besides GAMBLE?? (plus i don't play poker because i'm terrible, and even if we had $ out the wazoo i don't enjoy games of chance overmuch. because i'm terrible.) but H had apparently already accepted on our behalf. so:

me: OK, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: so, what are you thinking we should do? (obviously we're not bringing our kids to a late-night poker game.)
H: welll...
me: would you like me to keep the girls while you go to the poker game?
H: i'm not saying that, i mean, i don't want you to be stuck with the kids while i go out and play poker.
me: so what do you think we ought to do?
H: we could...uhhh...we could maybe put on a movie or something in the gameroom [at friends' house] and just let them hang out.
me: is anyone else bringing kids?
H: well, no, it's sort of a grown-up thing.
me: [fighting the urge to say, " a POKER GAME, really? NOT a family event, then? for real?] so would you like me to stay home with the girls? because i don't play, i would lose us money and double the buy-in, and i really don't want to come along in a babysitter capacity, and i think it's tacky to take your kids to a grown-up party anyway. who all's going to the poker game?
H: i don't know, so-and-so and whatchamacallit are invited but haven't rsvped, and mr. and mrs. thing are supposed to be there.
me: everyone playing?
H: well, yeah, but once you're out, you're OUT, so it's not like you'd just be watching us play.
me: so no one's bringing kids, and everyone's playing. i don't really dig the idea of coming along to watch the kids. if you want to go, though, by all means, go, we can hang out on saturday.
H: well...since i'll be spending the night i don't know what time i'll be back saturday.
me: hmmm. ok. do you have anything going on next weekend?
H: i don't think so...why?
me: i was thinking it'd be awesome to go to the [place we both like]. maybe get a babysitter and make an evening of it.
H: yeah, yeah, we could do that, definitely.
[he calls people who invited us to play poker and says, "yeah, i'll be there...oh, W? W doesn't want to go."]

how should i have handled that?

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how should i have handled that?

You did well! You did nothing wrong.

Your H is wrong. This is simple "How to read wives 101" and he failed.

If my wife said those words to me I would have known right away that it is not a good idea to go and play poker. My wife could beg me to go and I would not go.

This is how wives act when they are saying "don't go".

Does he know how to read you? Or is he playing dumb?

What H has done is a huge LB.


Last edited by Stan-ley; 07/07/10 11:25 PM.

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Stan-ley, gotta ask, is LYING also a HUGE LB?

Let me ask you RN, do you WANT him to go? I get a big NO. So why did you tell him it was okay? Also, what part of NO OVERNIGHTS WITHOUT YOUR SPOUSE in the MB plans did you miss?

There is so many things wrong with that WHOLE conversation, I don't know what to say.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
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PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
Quote
how should i have handled that?
This is how wives act when they are saying "don't go".

Does he know how to read you? Or is he playing dumb?

What H has done is a huge LB.
he doesn't KNOW anout the whole LB thing. plus we've always done our own thing. he doesn't KNOW that's "independent behavior" and therefore an negative, because we've ALWAYS engaged in independent behavior.

I grew up w/ the idea that adults do not ask one another for PERMISSION, but that it was courteous to INFORM one�s spouse of your plans.
So asking, �hey, there�s [whatever event] Thursday evening; do you mind if I go?� was intended as a rhetorical question.
The ONLY valid response was, �Not at all, babe, have fun! Are they serving food, or shall I save you a plate?�
�I�d rather you didn�t go� just was NOT a valid response. As Miss Manners would say, it simply isn�t done.
We�re both in the habit of ASKING for permission re activities, behavior, etc, we�ve just never actually expected an ANSWER. we've never USED our respective veto powers.

i'm saying, how could i have turned that around with no wifely game-playing and counting on him to read my body language? if he'd just said, hey, you mind keeping the kids while i go out friday night? i would have been like, sure, no prob! out of sheer habit. why pretend it was some kind of couples thing that i chose to bow out of? and why tell other people i didn't want to go? that's dickish.

how could i have used that opportunity to say, no, i'd rather you didn't--but howzabout you n ME go out that night?

how do i get covert MB on him and start getting us on the same page?


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Originally Posted by Scotland
Stan-ley, gotta ask, is LYING also a HUGE LB?

Let me ask you RN, do you WANT him to go? I get a big NO. So why did you tell him it was okay? Also, what part of NO OVERNIGHTS WITHOUT YOUR SPOUSE in the MB plans did you miss?

There is so many things wrong with that WHOLE conversation, I don't know what to say.

me: ok, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: so, you don't want to go? me neither. Let's go to [place we both love]! i'll call [babysitter] right now while you call [people] and tell them we won't be able to make it. should i wear that one dress, with the, with the, YOU know?

better? or manipulative?

see my reply to stan,ley above--i can't hold H too accountable for independent behavior because he doesn't KNOW it's a bad thing. plus he tried (lamely) to include me. i've checked my IB, but that could be seen as just recompense. he hasn't given me a reason to distrust him, ever, so his IB hasn't come up. (we're only a month in and i'm still in Unconditional Sweetness, No-Questions-Asked mode.) his sister is on the guest-list, so i'm not overly concerned about the overnight thing,.

plus i WAS invited, technically, and declined.

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My head is spinning, I am tired and I need to work in the morning. I will try to figure this out in the morning.


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DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
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PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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Originally Posted by Stan-ley
Quote
how should i have handled that?

You did well! You did nothing wrong.

Your H is wrong. This is simple "How to read wives 101" and he failed.

If my wife said those words to me I would have known right away that it is not a good idea to go and play poker. My wife could beg me to go and I would not go.

This is how wives act when they are saying "don't go".

Does he know how to read you? Or is he playing dumb?

What H has done is a huge LB.

No. You�re really wrong on this. It�s not the mans job to �read into� what his wife really means when she says something. It is the wife�s job to say what she means and mean what she says. Having to read into things is just playing games and a trap.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
No. You�re really wrong on this. It�s not the mans job to �read into� what his wife really means when she says something. It is the wife�s job to say what she means and mean what she says. Having to read into things is just playing games and a trap.

Originally Posted by RemainNameless
i'm saying, how could i have turned that around with no wifely game-playing and counting on him to read my body language? if he'd just said, hey, you mind keeping the kids while i go out friday night? i would have been like, sure, no prob! out of sheer habit. why pretend it was some kind of couples thing that i chose to bow out of? and why tell other people i didn't want to go? that's d***ish.

how could i have used that opportunity to say, no, i'd rather you didn't--but howzabout you n ME go out that night?

how do i get covert MB on him and start getting us on the same page?

i effing hate games. i mean, mind-games, not poker per se. what's a tactful way to introduce the concept of POJA?

see previous post re background and why i didn't straight-up say NO.

look, i don't MIND if he goes and plays poker this weekend. but you saw how gamey that conversation was. that's verbatim. i don't want to perpetuate that crap in our marriage.

i want to learn how to disagree in an appropriate fashion. i'm just barely getting my mind around disagreeing at all.

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Mating will always be a game.

But, you also fear H.

There is not enough intimacy.


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i effing hate games. i mean, mind-games, not poker per se. what's a tactful way to introduce the concept of POJA?

Then why are you playing them with your H? You didn't want him to go to the poker game alone. Yet - he's going. How did that happen? You went against your own thoughts and wishes in order to give him what you 'thought' he wanted. There was absolutely no honest discussion in your talk to each other.

I don't understand - why do you feel you need a tactful way to introduce such a healthy concept of POJA into your M? Because you're concerned that POJA will hobble your independent behaviors? IMO, behaving independently is a big reason why you are on this site right now. When you got married, you BECAME ONE. One flesh, one unit. Functioning as separate units will bring nothing but resentment and trouble.

And yes - I read your other post. You have learned a method of communicating that doesn't work - acquiescing. Acquiescing to your spouse to 'let' him to what he wants to do isn't healthy and leads to resentment.

Let's look at the very beginning of your convo with H and I'll show you where I think you went off the tracks:

Quote
me: OK, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: so, what are you thinking we should do? (obviously we're not bringing our kids to a late-night poker game.)
H: welll...
me: would you like me to keep the girls while you go to the poker game?

Okay, stop right there. Why did you ask him what he was thinking you should do, and then supply the answer?

Let's try it again:
Quote
me: OK, cool, do you want me to call [babysitter]?
H: well...with the buy-in and everything, that'd be like $70 just for an evening.
me: You know, that's not such a bad price. We could go and then hold off for a few weeks on the trip to The Place We Both Like. What do you think of that idea? Heck, we might even win big at poker and come out ahead!
H: welll...
me: Now you pause and let H develop some thoughts of his own to contribute


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Okay, still tired but able to somewhat think now.

MB concepts are to be done as ONE plan and you must do the ENTIRE PLAN. You can't pick and choose which concepts you WILL use and which ones you WON'T. These concepts compliment each other. You must be "ALL IN."

Gotta ask, who aren't you being honest to? Yourself? Your husband? US? Either you DID care that your H is going on that trip or you DIDN'T. When I read your post, it seemed like you WERE upset. Then when you were questioned, you said you weren't and this is just an example of your IB.

My head is spinning. I dunno where you need the help. Might I suggest you re-read the articles and basic concepts on here. When you are done, why don't you ask for help with what you need to do to get your marriage on track?


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

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PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

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I realized something awful last week: I�ve been abusing this forum. Not intentionally, I mean it like this: rather than meeting H�s needs and striving to build something deeper, I�ve been meeting H�s needs and not expecting a reaction, and then anxiously posting about what a good job I�ve been doing and how it's not having any effect.

Not expecting anything from H is a pretty horrible DJ. AND I�ve cared so much about being told by forum members what a smart girl I am, that I haven�t cared enough about whether H is giving me attention. If he tuned me out and went to go watch TV, I�d be like, screw it, I�m not going to impose UA on him, he's obviously not into it�I�ll just go post about how great I am and how he�s ignoring me. You might say i had an incipient EA going with MB. =)

That�s why I vanished. i've been FOCUSING on H instead of just doing a technically good-enough job to where i can post about all the good stuff i've done; putting my heart into meeting his needs AND giving him a chance to meet mine, which i hadn't been doing because i still had it in my mind and heart that he was a dyed-in-the-wool, four-star, nickel-plated ******** and would NEVER be willing or able to meet my needs.

After 8 years of putting on a happy face, and 2 years of self-imposed solitude (because I didn�t understand boundaries, but knew on some level that I shouldn�t trust myself around ANYONE after the A), I found it so comforting to vent anonymously that I�ve said awful things about H�and while it felt good to say them, it was a bad kind of good. Know what I mean? Anger empowers you, gives you a little of the old �fire in the belly�, but that�s only a good if it�s righteous anger. And I don�t have grounds for righteous anger.

This is scary to me: I�ve been a spin-artist since way before the A, and I realize that if I spin my words right, I could get someone on here to say what I�ve been wanting to hear: [bold]is your marriage WORTH recovering? If he�s always going to treat you like this, maybe you should pack up and head out.[bold] Good news is, I don�t want to hear this anymore, because I know it�s not TRUE.

And looking back at some of my posts, I�m seeing bitterness and rage and STRAIGHT-UP SLANDER�basically, all the foggy bull**** I would have liked to yell at H on d-day, I�ve just been yelling on here instead. Now that it�s out of my system I can see him for who he really is. He�s not the cold, judgmental, condescending jerk I�ve described. he's a good guy, and our marriage IS worth saving.

My plan I posted last week was composed and posted from a spin-mode perspective, but I believe it�s valid, and I�m enacting it. But I believe my motives are right this time. I�m not doing it so I can be an MB success story, I�m doing it because my husband deserves it and because I believe we can be a frickin FANTASTIC couple. For US, not for your approval. Which is what I was after before.

Thanks for listening, guys. don�t write me off just yet. i'll probably be posting in the middle of the night from now on, when h is knocked out.

i have hope. and it's not the doomed, resigned, hope-against-all-odds kind--the only thing stopping me from enjoying our marriage has been MY martyr-a55 attitude. i have proper hope.

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Notice I stopped posting to you?

Now you know why? Let us know when you decide to get down to business.

JL

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You weren't a spin-doctor, let's call it the way it is, YOU WERE LYING. You can' change something until you ACKNOWLEDGE it. NO sugar-coating allowed. Be honest with yourself FIRST and you will find it easier to be honest with everyone else.

Many people on here want to hear certain things and when they don't they RUNNNNNNNNNNN. You CAN instead LEARN. READ more things on here and see what you can learn. There are FWS's who post on here and have their stories for the reading and learning from. YOU need to do this. We can't MAKE you learn. We can't control what YOU do. All we can do is point you in the right direction.

Listen to JL, there is much to learn through the posts that were already given to you.


BW(Me)aka Scotty:37
DSx2: 10,12
DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09
Plan B Dec18/09
Personal R in works
Scotty's THING laugh
Newly Betrayed click here


Praying for walls and doors. Thanx MM

“Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.”
? Maya Angelou

PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION

THANK YOU
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RemainNameless, how are you doing?

I hope your marriage is in the healing mode!


Me: FWW 31
DH: BH 32
M: April 2001
DSs b 2005 and 2006
EA began summer~autumn 2009, D-Day1 Feb 2010
EA went uglier until NC-letters mid-June 2010
Discovering MB site end of June 2010
D-Day 2 Jul 7, 2010, followed by 2 other D-days (Jul 14, 2010, and Jul 31?, 2010)

Falling back in love - or so it seemed...
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