I think your really getting alot out of the ENQ.

Ive "grasped at the straws" before too. My WW can smell it too. I think she appreciates the gesture but knows its phony at the same time.

You could try complimenting him on his ideas. Like if he says something about the kids school stuff, "Thats a really good idea! Lets do that."

Ohh and shooting and fishing with him is great! you can also work your admiration in on that.

i thought i had replied to that post! i was all hyped up and sort of posted at random, but know this--your post re ego vs feelings was what helped me get everything in perspective. THANK YOU!!

i don't know if this across properly, but i'm deep into some RELIEF and GRATITUDE right about now. found out we're NOT fundamentally wrong for each other or any such self-serving BS; in fact, we LOVE each other, both choice-wise and infatuation-wise. we've both been trying to do right by each other from the git-go, no one's neglected anyone. we've just been misreading each other to a degree that boggles the mind.

initially, i was like, this ENQ is the most feelingsy document ever--how can i introduce it, how can it possible be effective, blah blah--for real, i'm convinced it's worded in such a way that it MUST be discussed. you can fill it out totally candidly and still feel the need to explain yourself further. again, kudos to Dr. H. i appreciate subtlety.

my H has told me before, approvingly, that i "think like a man", and he seems to intend it as a compliment, so i would have been equally inclined to dismiss the ENQ if i hadn't read enough threads of happy recoverees who have applied themselves faithfully to MB principles.

EVERYTHING IS RECONCILABLE!! HOORAY!

You know what I think when I read your posts, RN? That you and your H are still "courting" - that is, showing only your good sides to each other so you'll look desirable as a mate. Does that sound accurate, or am I off-base? Working with O&H may help you. Have you considered sitting down together and talking about things like: the dumbest thing you ever did in school; the most embarrassing; the most sinful, to you; the hardest....etc. Have you shown each other your SELF, pared down for scrutiny? Have you taken that chance?

REmain,

You know the odd thing?? Harley started all of this because in his counseling years ago he found many couples who were trying to meet one anothers needs and were splitting.

The reason they were splitting was that they were trying to meet needs as they saw them or thought their partner wanted them, rather than KNOWING what the needs were.

The lack of progress and the lack of getting needs met, led to resentment and eventually the end of a marriage where one or both of the partners were actually trying but were ineffective.

Oddly, I believe after all of these years that the reason you see so many men on this site is that is appeals to a male way of thinking. Not to say that it does not appeal to women as well. But, men like plans, they like cause and effect, and they like the organization.

I will say that terms like "love bank" and "love busters" turned me off when I first got here as they seem awfully "touchy feelly" to me. But, the fact that behavior is not random and that WS's and BS's say pretty much the same thing over and over, strongly suggests that Harley's organization is very effective and is very effective in addressing relationship issues.

This stuff is far more subtle than most realize and it is very powerful.

I wish you and your H the best.

JL

oh, we're still totally courting. at least i am. i've always had this idea that when you start caring less about how you appear to your spouse, you start caring a little less in general. not that i've been this perfect wife, not by any stretch, but i still have the newlywed's fear of disapproval. like my next action could be the dealbreaker.

rationally i know it's essential to KNOW each other if we're ever going to make each other happy, but it's so hard. i dread seeing disgust or impatience or contempt on his face. what's even worse, though, is this exaggerated patient tolerance, like he's summoning every ounce of strength to put up with me.

we just need to work through it, i guess. he's pragmatic, i'm pragmatic, the program is pragmatic. i'm sure if we follow it we'll bounce back. theoretically we should be a better couple than before.

yeah, i think the pragmatic approach is brilliant, and i noticed there are a fiar amount of men on here--MEN men, not your typical happy-marriage-program-scholars. before i found this forum, i just googled "recovering from infidelity" or something along those lines, and most of the sites i found featured either bitter wives justifying their affairs to one another, or complacent wives condemning each other for their husbands' affairs.

i'm trying to read up on every available resource on this site and act on all of it (strictly ACT on it, minus the terminology, till H is totally onboard.) i don't believe it's too late for anyone if they want to make it work.

What if my husband doesn't believe in romantic love? can it still happen or are we just going to wind up as really good friends and roomates?

recon, i had to track down your past posts to get a feel for your background--i'm so sorry about your situation and i hope it's improving, or better yet, HAS improved.

thank YOU, sir.

Remain,

You said

Romantic love??? Oh man! Ok, let's take this from the top. First do you recall your marriage vows? Of course you do. Do you recall promising to love, through sickness and health, good time and bad?? You probably do. Your H made the same vows right?

Ok, here is the deal. How can anyone promise to "feel or be" " IN LOVE for a life time? Our feelings change all of the time. We cannot make that promise. What we can promise is to "LOVE" our spouse. But, here the word is a VERB, an action, something we do whether we feel like it or not.

The love I am talking about and the love you promised in your vows is not a Hollywood/novel/mag "romantic" love. Nope. The love you are promising is a deep abidding love, that is grounded in your commitment to act/be "loving" to your man. You control it, you do it, and you don't wait until he deserves it.

Ever wonder why people celebrate long marriages? Ever wonder what is so special. It is not the romance they are celebrating, it is the years of commited love on both of their parts. It is knowing that during many times in each of their lives there were probably better fits to each of them with someone else, but they held true, they promised to quit looking and they promised to love and they had done it. Further, they were the recepients of this love. It showed itself in many ways, often little, rarely grand.

A nice meal, a gentle thank you, doing tasks and listening. Touching, and helping one another through the rough spots of life.

If you want to share your life with your H don't look for romance, although that is nice. Look for LOVE of the deep kind. Look for love that is there through thick and thin. Look for love in the common things and the quiet things. And give in the same measure to your H the love that you have.

The media of today, has little concept of what Harley is telling folks on this site. If you finally realize that you are happy with yourself or on the path to address things you need to address, then you will be more able to give the love you promised, but more importantly able to recieve the love you are given.

Remains, there is not a single thing on Harley's list of NEEDS that you truly need to survive, not a one. Those lists and the ENQ are for each of you to realize how to show and receive love so that your partner recognizes it. Your H does not have to be romantic. What he has to do is love you. That is all he needs to know is that you need and require the "act" of love, not the superficial trappings that are often confused with love.

I will also tell you that men are often not good at 'romantic' love, but that does not mean they are not good at the act of love. You and he need to recognize this and discuss it. If you like flowers in your house get them, don't wait for him to buy they or remember to buy them. If you need to be held when you are down, or need to be intimate, or just need to feel close to a human, tell him, let him know. Most of us guys love the feel of a woman in our arms especially one we love.

ARe you seeing what I am on you about. You have "expectations" about love that are not real. Expectations lead to resentment, and as the saying goes

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I fully understand the scriptural concept of love as an action and a choice rather than a feeling. i was familiar with the concept of the "honeymoon phase" and KNEW that the infatuation would eventually wear off and be replaced with something deeper and truer. i'm not a disillusioned wife moping around the house wishing for flowers.

fact is, H and i treat each other with consideration and kindness (aside from my affair). we're civil even when we're angry. we don't argue. we don't have a problem with conflict--it's not that we can't get along. i resigned myself long ago to an amicable partnership.

Dr. Harley's books, etc., are the FIRST i've come across that PROMOTE romantic love, that encourage couples to expect more from a marriage than an absence of conflict. in the absence of romantic love, it would be nothing more than a very efficient program of behavior modification designed to generate approval and avoid disapproval. i sincerely hope he's right and that if we follow his guidelines we can CREATE romantic love, because otherwise it comes down to something like this:
"i find your behavior satisfactory. TRUE/FALSE. you fulfill your obligations adequately. TRUE/FALSE."
THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING UNTIL NOW. even people in arranged marriages can cultivate a fondness for each other based on mutual respect and considerate behavior. why can't we? we already LOVE each other in the technical sense, that we PERFORM LOVING ACTIONS. i want to be infatuated with my husband. i want him to fall in love with me. i don't just want to fulfill his requirements, i want to make him HAPPY. i don't want him to go through the motions of meeting my needs, i want him to ENJOY me.

i have carefully schooled myself against disillusionment since day one of our marriage. i know infatuation doesn't last. but i live for it. why can't we have both? on one hand there's obligation and self-sacrifice and obedience and submission, but on the other hand you've got the Song of Solomon. doesn't God want us to take JOY in one another? WE DON'T. I WANT US TO. can it happen?

Remain,

Interesting questions you are asking. You seem that the "act" of loving is mechanical and not romantic. This is not a binary situation, it is a flowing changing situation. Harley's approach can build romantic love, but it MUST be based on the willingness of both of you to love (as in the verb to love).

I wrote to you because expectations often lead to resentment and you seem to have expectations of romance that will not be available to you on a full time basis. There are things like brain chemistry and real life that get in the way.

But, I must say you still think that excercising free will and determination to love is "not romantic". You said

You seem to be confusing being "friends" with loving someone. As you said even people in arranged marriages cultivate fondness and respect for one another. IN fact people in arranged remain married at a much higher rate than most in the US do. The art of this is being loving toward your spouse and having your spouse appreciate what you are doing as well as respecting what you are doing.

I will leave you with a quote that seems to summarize what you feel

You will find that the more you love your H the more you will feel attached to him. The same applies to you. If you read here very long you will hear a very common theme.

"I don't know how the affair started. He and were just talking about his problems with his W and family and I was just offering advice and gradually my feelings for him just got stronger and stronger, and then I was in love with him."

The act of giving often leads to love. Whereas most people think that the act of receiving is the main way we fall in love.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

x

Remains,

You are a very young woman and I have been married longer than you or your H have been on this planet. It tell you this so that you understand my perspective. I read what you posted with horror. I am not a biblical scholar, but one thing I know is that the Bible instructs us (male and female) to become ONE when we marry.

In my mind that does not mean

There is a long thread started and mostly contributed to by Mortar Man on marriage and the roles of men and women. I think you would find it very interesting and enlightening.

When you post here please understand that no one can really attack you, they can only offer their perspectives on things. You are free to and should evaluate this perspectives and see if they offer you something. There is no need for you to defend. The goal here is to build marriages.

I can see where you might pick up that I am offering advice similar to that which was offered to your H. I am not trying to curtail your sense of romance. What I would like you to see is that within the advice and plans that Harley offers is not only "romance" but something deeper, but it requires that both spouses actively contribute to the marriage. Further, while it can sound or seem mechanical to you, especially when viewed in the context of today's media, it is not.

It is far more subtle than that as is the institution of marriage. Today the focus seems to be on "equality" when in my mind the focus should be on "balance", weaknesses supported by strengths, and the couple becoming one.

It is my hope that as you read and master the MB material that you will see these things and hence my worry about the "romantic" point of view. It can cloud ones expectations. Romance is good, but a shared live both physically and emotionally is better. That is my perspective.

I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I went and found Mortar Man's post on the roles of husband and Wife, it is religion based. It may or may not be what you are now heading toward but you may find it interesting. Just click on the bookmark Husband&W roles

JL, i appreciate your advice immensely, just for its sheer wisdom and correctness--hearing that you've been married forever makes your input even more valuable to me. you should add a line or two in your signature so everyone knows! your posts have considerable authority anyway, but i truly view you and many others on here as mentors. every bit of advice i've received has been good, but yours has been thoughtful and incisive as well.
i read the thread--well, 13 pages of it anyway--Mortarman is one of my new heroes. he not only broke down the original scripture in a way that's both biblically sound and accessible to the layman, he managed to overcome the harshness a lot of people perceive in the prescribed roles of husband and wife. King James doesn't mince words when it comes to how a wife should and should not behave, and it's easy for women to get offended by the tone. Mortarman also answered questions and elaborated graciously, even for folks (ARK, anyone?) who really didn't want to hear it.
i don't believe our MC's deliberately subverted God's word--i think they either had a rough day and didn't choose their words with care, or that my husband misinterpreted what they said and took it way too deeply to heart. keep in mind, i didn't hear this straight from them. i bear them no grudge. my husband has a way more solid foundation in scripture than i do--his family's been in the ministry for generations. i think their offhand warning scared him because he trusted them and he been deceived by his ex-wife. he believed they had seen something fundamentally untrustworthy in me, and started looking for it himself.
he got very cold and critical after that. then started wrestling with the decision to leave the ministry. then got deeply depressed--clinically so. it was like he was immune to joy--i exhausted everything in my make-your-husband-smile repertoire for 2 years and finally decided he just didn't like me anymore. i even talked myself into believing that HE must be having an affair. (no way, in retrospect.)
when he told me last week about the warning he got from these well-intentioned MCs, he also told me that their assessment of me was a deciding factor in his leaving the church. he's still bitter against them. i wish he had told me before.

next post will pertain directly on MB principles and impact of same on our marriage, promise!

Remain,

I am glad you got something good out of MM's thread. He is a very good man and he did an incredible job in dealing with his W's affair. I also thought he had good insight into the scripture. You said Isn't odd how folks pickup on one thing and miss another. Because within the King James version there is the admonition that I mentioned earlier, that husband and wife were to become one. Sort of at odds with the concept of a "power" struggle between men and women isn't it?

Now that you know what seems to have tipped your H over, what are your plans for rebuilding this marriage? I find it so sad that, I presume, well intentioned people had such a negative impact on your H, and consequently you and your marriage.

But the job at hand now is for you and your H to get on the same page and develop some plans to address the marriage and make it something that you both can draw joy and support from.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

ok, check this out--i have my H's ENQ results and i've been on a mission, but i've been skirting around giving him mine. still working up my nerve.
but for the past week, he's been AWESOME. not just considerate--he's always pretty considerate--but FUN. i'm not getting that labor-of-love, grim-obligation-but-i'm-toughing-it-out-because-it's-my-duty-as-your-husband vibe from him. it's like he's reading my mind...i mean, a lot of the stuff i want can't be quantified...here are a few notable examples of wonderful and off-the-wall things he's been doing--

1-we took a long drive and talked politics a few days ago. i LOVE to have serious, speculative conversations with him because it makes me proud that he sees me as smart enough to debate with; a worthy adversary, so to speak. and it fuels my admiration for him because he's a great conversationalist, clever, thinks on his feet, well-read, interesting, animated. we had fun.

Conversation is one of my biggest emotional needs and i've never been able to tell him that because...

2-he bought me a happy surprise: i'm addicted to an obscure brand of lethal, low-rent generic popsicles that i'm addicted to and that he detests. he brought home a big ol' box! that took some thought, too--they're hard to find, i'm the only one in the house (possibly on the planet) who will eat them...indulging someone's bizarre eccentricities isn't the kind of thing you do out of obligation. regarding someone's weird popsicle addiction as endearing and cute? sounds like puppy-love...

3-he's been hugging and kissing me when he goes to work and comes home and leaving me silly-a55 notes: we always make fun of couples who call each other cute names, so the notes are addressed to: Alligator Muffin. Monkey Princess. Crispy McRiblets. Sweet Pumpkin Wrangler.

Affection is important to me, but my attitude towards that was pretty much the same as re conversation--if you want to hug someone, you're going to hug them. i didn't feel like i could ask for it either, because i figured it would take time for him to WANT to express physical affection towards me. and silly notes? how do you ask for THAT?

4-he's been eating way smaller portions and lifting weights--and it shows already. also, if i change or improve my appearance in any way, i'm always eager to show it off and make sure he notices, but he's the opposite--i might say something like, "your shoulders are looking good, will you flex for me?" no way. he's always been anti-show-off. but he came to me all "notice anything different about me?" AWESOME!

here's the thing--the attractive-spouse deal is HUGE to me, but i've always felt like a shallow jerk for it. i thought about how i'd feel if he told me i needed to change some aspect of my appearance in order to fulfill HIS emotional needs. i'd do it, and i'd act cheerful, but i'd be thinking mean thoughts. so i've never even HINTED to him that he needs to get in shape, because he's keenly aware of it already. my thinking was, ok, if you KNOW, and you're unhappy about it, FIX IT. he's impeccably groomed, and he wears clothes really well, but i'm the only one who gets to see him naked, so i always figured he cared about his public appearance, but not about how he looked to ME. look--


5-suggested we do something fun this weekend...i said great, what did he have in mind? "oh, i don't know," he said; "i was thinking maybe we could go fishing or something."

funny you should mention fishing, because:

hmmmm....y'all see where this is going?

No need to skirt around your ENQ anymore since he already read it online.

Sometimes guys surprise you if they get a chance.

H and I had a great, great talk tues night--we stayed up all night. he told me he had read all my posts on here, both on this thread and everything else...at first he was really angry that i was being candid with strangers and evasive with him, but he also says he can understand totally why i wouldn't tell him some of the things i wanted from him.

he said i hurt his pride with some of my characterizations of him because i had been reading him wrong; he said some of the other stuff hurt because it was true and i had held my tongue and not told him; and some of it gave him hope because it showed him that i'm dead serious about making our marriage work. not just WORK work, we've got the well-oiled-machine thing down pat, but be truly happy together.

so...he's basically seen the inside of my head, at this point. i feel a little wierd about that, but also a deep sense of relief. so much for sparing his feelings, ouch--he knows everything i've been trying to hide from him. and he loves me anyway, plus understands me a heck of a lot better.

and you know what? he told me pointedly that he hadn't been trying to check up on me, and that he hoped i wasn't mad. say WHAAAT??? i told him i always assumed he was still checking up on me and that he had every right to do so, forever, any time he was curious or suspicious or just felt like looking. and THEN he told me he wouldn't read my posts anymore because he wanted me to be able to speak freely and anonymously on here and not worry about what he was going to think.

that's demonstrating a lot of trust.

LMAO! true, true! i was getting to that!

Remain,

I am going to tell you a true story. Many years ago a woman came to this site. She was ready to leave her H because �he did not care�, �never bought her gifts, not birthday or even Christmas� and all he did was work. So I and others started talking to her and after a few weeks a few things came to light.

It seems that he had given her gifts but she did not like them and took them back to the store. It seems she was very very picky about what she wore, had in the house, etc. Apparently, he had picked up on this and simply stopped giving her gifts. It also turned out that he was very successful and his company consumed a lot of his time. She had the house she wanted, drove the car she wanted, the kids went to the school she wanted them to go to. In short he supported her but the cost was he was very busy.

So to make a long story somewhat shorter we addressed her issue of not receiving gifts. We suggested that she make a list of the things she would like for her birthday, which was coming up. She rebelled saying it wasn�t a �gift� if she had to tell him what she wanted. We responded that given that she was very picky, given that he never left work when the stores were open, and that he was not a shopper, she need to consider making this list. Further we pointed out if she made a lengthy list it would still be a surprise gift, as she would not know which one he chose, but she would get something she liked.

After much debate back and forth she agreed to do this. She composed her list and presented it to him a few weeks before her birthday. Her birthday came and we did not hear from her. The next week we did. He had NOT done what she thought. He had not selected a gift from the list.

Instead he had bought her EVERYTHING on the list. He was so happy to buy her something she wanted, would use, and not return, that he bought the whole thing. In fact, he stated he had a ball getting the gifts because he always wanted her happy he just did not know what to do, and now he did. She was shocked�and as she thought about it she was very pleased. He had indeed surprised her. She was happy, and he was happy.

My message to you is to consider telling your H when you need a hug, it will help him to read you better in the future, it will help him to know he is NOT intruding into your space, and it will allow him to show you that he cares/loves you. You need conversation, tell him. You in essence have done this by him reading your threads and see how that worked out????

Remains have you figured out he doesn�t want to hurt you or lose you. He just doesn�t know how to love you as you like. If you tell him, my guess he will love you AND he will be much happier as well.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

RN, I wanted to answer your questions about what happens at the beginning of PLan B. You asked whether the WS would KNOW about the impending Plan B. In MY case, my WH doesn't even know about Marriage Builders and SAA. He has NO CLUE about DrH. I think it is the case in MOST of the stichs. Usually, the BS finds this site after desperation and searching for something to save their marriage. There are times when the WS knows about MB and I often wonder how that plays out in those sitchs. How does it work when your WS KNOWS that you are working a Plan A and that you WILL go into Plan B?

So, to answer your question, the BS DOESN'T tell the WS that there is an end date to Plan A, because the WS would have NO CLUE what the BS meant. Plan A-meeting all of your WSs important ENs and avoid LBs. Plan B-remove yourself from the drama and abuse to protect your LB balance. Also, wait out the end of the affair and remove yourself from the cake eating equation of the wayward.

That's a SUMMARY. If you have any more questions about the plans, ASK.