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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
(((Anne))) I know how you feel. And I'm glad you've figured out that he can look you dead in the eye and lie. That is part of what did me in with my WH....I knew I could never trust him.

I shudder to think of what he's done with ButterFace that he doesn't consider to be cheating. He's really taking the high road, isn't he?

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Two things for you, Anne...,

One, I still think your husband is mostly out to impress DB, and that his indiscretions are just a symptom of that. His affair is with DB, not with any one woman. I think you (or one of the other posters) pegged it in that his "boundary" is if it's not intercourse, it's not adultery. Not an acceptable situation by any means, but you know who your true enemy is.

I still think you have a chance to bring his world crashing down with a confrontation and then you could take advantage of it to build a marriage that gives you both fulfillment.

Two, do not mix lawyers, divorce, etc with plans to reconcile. They do not mix. As YEG pointed out, lawyers have no interest in MB's or recovery, they want to follow through on divorce and make their money.

At least mine was up front with me, when I told him I was still hoping for reconciliation, he point-blank told me I wasn't "ripe" yet, and to call him in a couple months when I had made up my mind.

And, some of the MB's principles will actually backfire on you once you go ahead with divorce. A successful divorce is not about emotions or how you part, it is a business deal where you try to get the best settlement (both for money and custody) as possible, whether by agreement or full-on battle. Winning at divorce is often diametrically opposed to trying to reconcile.

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I am in serious need of guidance. My husband and I have been leagally seperated and living apart since Oct 27, 2009. Shortly after the speration he tried to get back together and I was not ready. Things became very ugly dealing with the custody of our children. In Feb. I foundout he was dating a lady from his work. He then asked me to get back together again and I just could not even stand to look at him knowing he was with someone else. I rejected him. Things became even more hostile and ugly in dealing with our children. He moved his GF and her son into our house and introduced them to our children in April. This is against a court order to not introduce a significant other to the children after 6 months. I became very upset and approached him at our house. His GF was there and threaten to call the cops if I did not leave. Well she ended up doing so and I was later arrested. My husband said he needed documentation for court and custody. In May of this year our youngest daughter became ill and was hospitalized for many days. This was the first time my husband and I were able to talk alone with no outside influences. We learned that much that we went through was dictated by other people. We cried and held each other all night and told each other that we love one another. His response is what do I do now? - I have a woman and her son in my house. I told him not my call. It has been 41 days since we started talking again and rebuilding our relationship the problem is that his GF and her son are still in the house and he has not told her anything. He said that he is afraid that WE will not workout and only time will tell. We went to the movies last night as a family and it was such a great feeling. Yet when the night was over he headed back to our house where his GF and son are. It feels so wrong and I get physically sick over it. I tell him he cannot burn the candle at both ends and he agrees and tells me to be patient...it will all work out. WHAT??? US??? I live alone except on the weeks that I have my kids. When they are with their dad I get soooo lonely and depressed. What do I do?

schtoop #2399359 07/01/10 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by schtoop
Two things for you, Anne...,

One, I still think your husband is mostly out to impress DB, and that his indiscretions are just a symptom of that. His affair is with DB, not with any one woman.


This amazes me---how differently some see it compared to how I see it. I see DB and the WH as two peas in a pod. If anyone is trying to impress anyone I think DB tries to impress her WH...DB is the one who goes all the way with no apparent remorse.



Originally Posted by schtoop
Two, do not mix lawyers, divorce, etc with plans to reconcile.

I'm curious how you expect to know if you can reconcile before you even confront? She HAS to protect herself legally. She MUST know what her options are legally. She is pregnant, a SAHM and has two other young sons.

Originally Posted by schtoop
And, some of the MB's principles will actually backfire on you once you go ahead with divorce. A successful divorce is not about emotions or how you part, it is a business deal where you try to get the best settlement (both for money and custody) as possible, whether by agreement or full-on battle. Winning at divorce is often diametrically opposed to trying to reconcile.

How would a person attempt to win at divorce while attempting to reconcile..?? I think Anne hasn't made up her mind what she wants to do about the marriage. Naturally, it seems she will go one way or the other. She is hardly a scatterbrained, knee jerk reactive BW.

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Originally Posted by lovefear
I am in serious need of guidance. My husband and I have been leagally seperated and living apart since Oct 27, 2009. Shortly after the speration he tried to get back together and I was not ready. Things became very ugly dealing with the custody of our children. In Feb. I foundout he was dating a lady from his work. He then asked me to get back together again and I just could not even stand to look at him knowing he was with someone else. I rejected him. Things became even more hostile and ugly in dealing with our children. He moved his GF and her son into our house and introduced them to our children in April. This is against a court order to not introduce a significant other to the children after 6 months. I became very upset and approached him at our house. His GF was there and threaten to call the cops if I did not leave. Well she ended up doing so and I was later arrested. My husband said he needed documentation for court and custody. In May of this year our youngest daughter became ill and was hospitalized for many days. This was the first time my husband and I were able to talk alone with no outside influences. We learned that much that we went through was dictated by other people. We cried and held each other all night and told each other that we love one another. His response is what do I do now? - I have a woman and her son in my house. I told him not my call. It has been 41 days since we started talking again and rebuilding our relationship the problem is that his GF and her son are still in the house and he has not told her anything. He said that he is afraid that WE will not workout and only time will tell. We went to the movies last night as a family and it was such a great feeling. Yet when the night was over he headed back to our house where his GF and son are. It feels so wrong and I get physically sick over it. I tell him he cannot burn the candle at both ends and he agrees and tells me to be patient...it will all work out. WHAT??? US??? I live alone except on the weeks that I have my kids. When they are with their dad I get soooo lonely and depressed. What do I do?

Love/Fear can you start your own thread? It will be easier for others to help you if you have your own thread. Just copy and paste your first post to a new thread with your own title.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
How would a person attempt to win at divorce while attempting to reconcile..?? I think Anne hasn't made up her mind what she wants to do about the marriage. Naturally, it seems she will go one way or the other. She is hardly a scatterbrained, knee jerk reactive BW.

You're right, I don't know what I want to do about this marriage and I won't know until I have confronted him. I do know that I need to know my options before I do that. There is no way I could be accused of being a knee jerk reactive BW. If anything, most people on here think that I am not reactive enough!

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Originally Posted by anne505
If anything, most people on here think that I am not reactive enough!


You should extricate that thought from your brain, my dear. smile I think we can all appreciate the risk of a false recovery, and I suspect most are waiting to chime in if they feel they are needed after you either find out more or decide on a plan of action.

I know you have identified with SmilingWoman's situation, but I would have to echo schtoop's perspective. I think it was schtoop who predicted some time ago that this drawn-out approach will rapidly drain your LB$, and the tone of your posts suggests that is happening.

You certainly don't seem the reactive type, but I just want to give my opinion that, as low as your LB$ has gotten, as similar as this may seem to SmilingWoman's sitch, remember that with your WH, somewhere in there may be a wonderful man - and marriage - that can yet be rescued.

Last edited by Mrs_Vanilla; 07/01/10 03:59 PM. Reason: darn extra bracket

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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
remember that with your WH, somewhere in there may be a wonderful man - and marriage - that can yet be rescued.

This is true. I had other issues with my WH besides his adultery. The history of deceit was too long and deep for me to ever get past it. It may not be that way with your WH.

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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
as similar as this may seem to SmilingWoman's sitch, remember that with your WH, somewhere in there may be a wonderful man - and marriage - that can yet be rescued.

Whether or not that is true remains to be seen. The more I find out, the less likely this seems to be. He's just lied to me so many times and about so many different things. His priorities are certainly screwed up. He spends a lot of time talking to Dirtbag, going out with Dirtbag, making plans with Dirtbag not to mention his little outings with ButterFace/OW. He hardly talks to me (and when he does he's usually telling me a lie about something) and the last time we did anything together without the kids was February. He has no interest in me at all.

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anne505 #2399459 07/01/10 05:12 PM
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Do you want to continue at all @ this point? Recovery is even harder than this, and typically the BS has to pull a lot of weight. It is one thing if you are done; it is another, however, to still entertain the idea of reconciling.

There are many here on this board who have endured years of what you describe, or years of various other assaults from WSs. I've posted SadSoSad/MadSoMad/DancesWithGoats's thread below. She is just one example of a situation that seemed insurmountable, and yet her (F)WH appears to be turning things around.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=155413&Number=2191290#Post2191290



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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Do you want to continue at all @ this point? Recovery is even harder than this, and typically the BS has to pull a lot of weight. It is one thing if you are done; it is another, however, to still entertain the idea of reconciling.

There are many here on this board who have endured years of what you describe, or years of various other assaults from WSs. I've posted SadSoSad/MadSoMad/DancesWithGoats's thread below. She is just one example of a situation that seemed insurmountable, and yet her (F)WH appears to be turning things around.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=155413&Number=2191290#Post2191290

Thanks for sharing that. We'll see what happens once I confront. I'm trying to be realistic and not get my hopes up. Sorry if that comes across too negative.

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One other thread for DancesWithGoats in Recovery.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2396004#Post2396004

I understand about not wanting to get your hopes up. And obviously I have my own bias here, being the WS in my M. I think the chance for transformation is a good thing. smile


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I wish you didn't have to wait till you see a lawyer, I wish you can confront him now laugh

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Originally Posted by SapphireReturns
I wish you didn't have to wait till you see a lawyer, I wish you can confront him now laugh

It would be nice to have it over but I've waited this long, I can wait a few more weeks. I just feel that seeing the lawyer first will give me some much needed confidence and will help me to keep a level head once I do confront (information is power). Also, I won't confront immediately after seeing the lawyer. I will talk it over with my therapist at my appointment the next day and give the situation some serious thought first.

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(((((anne)))))

If he falls apart and really works at changing you will still have to decide if it has been too much. For me there was not a single good part in my marriage to pine over or to lose. For me it is all up. That is, if he can maintain. Recovery is very hard but it is helping us, with set backs here and there but GM is remorseful and has committed to me for as much as it takes for as long as it takes. Is it the truth? Truth is something that never entered his mind before, truth to him was whatever he wanted. It takes a while to assess the honesty and commitment. I am not done yet but I think he is honest this time about it. Remember, if you do decide to recover we will help you. If you do not decide to recover we will help you.


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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Originally Posted by anne505
If anything, most people on here think that I am not reactive enough!


You should extricate that thought from your brain, my dear. smile I think we can all appreciate the risk of a false recovery, and I suspect most are waiting to chime in if they feel they are needed after you either find out more or decide on a plan of action.

I know you have identified with SmilingWoman's situation, but I would have to echo schtoop's perspective. I think it was schtoop who predicted some time ago that this drawn-out approach will rapidly drain your LB$, and the tone of your posts suggests that is happening.

You certainly don't seem the reactive type, but I just want to give my opinion that, as low as your LB$ has gotten, as similar as this may seem to SmilingWoman's sitch, remember that with your WH, somewhere in there may be a wonderful man - and marriage - that can yet be rescued.

Sorry to jump in. I have been following this from the beginning, and Lord knows, I have my own issues and work ahead of me, so I am as far from an expert as anyone can get, but I agree with you, Mrs. Vanilla. None of us knows the WH except for Anne, and there may be other issues afoot that we haven't been privy to. But if love was there once, it can be recovered, and from what little I have read here, he seems more immature and under the thrall of a nasty frat boy-type friend who is a bad influence, than he is a guy who is hopeless or unrecoverable. He doesn't apparently know what marriage really is, as I didn't. The depth of his immaturity, selfishness, and perfidy is obvious but is orders of magnitude less than my own was, but if they loved each other once, then MB principles, assiduously learned and practiced, can completely recover that love, if they want it, and can bring a mature and admirable guy and true husband into the world. Thinking about divorce and consulting a divorce attorney at this point with the finality that seems to show itself in Anne's writings, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. As long as Anne has protected herself, her expanding family, and her share of assets in the event that this guy is irreversibly a truly bad and calculating man, then giving him every opportunity to break down and change himself around makes the most sense to me. There just seems to be a big piece of this puzzle missing. One either wants to recover broken love and restore respect, or recovery has already been written off. And MB is about the former.

I would add, though, that MB can also help a BS recover, even if the marriage is not salvageable. They say that time can heal all wounds. That doesn't mean that a bad scar is not permanent. A scar, though, is very, very tough.

Last edited by GreenMile; 07/01/10 07:57 PM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thinking about divorce and consulting a divorce attorney at this point with the finality that seems to show itself in Anne's writings, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. As long as Anne has protected herself, her expanding family, and her share of assets in the event that this guy is irreversibly a truly bad and calculating man,

I believe that is why she is consulting a divorce attorney. I don't understand why everyone keeps discouraging her from doing this!


Originally Posted by GreenMile
then giving him every opportunity to break down and change himself around makes the most sense to me.

Well, sure IF that is what Anne wants. Who could fault her for walking away?


[/quote]There just seems to be a big piece of this puzzle missing. One either wants to recover broken love and restore respect, or recovery has already been written off. And MB is about the former.[/quote]

There is a big piece of the puzzle missing....how her WH will react to confrontation. It isn't always so cut and dried GM. I believe Anne is in that questioning phase. She doesn't KNOW what she wants.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thinking about divorce and consulting a divorce attorney at this point with the finality that seems to show itself in Anne's writings, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. As long as Anne has protected herself, her expanding family, and her share of assets in the event that this guy is irreversibly a truly bad and calculating man,

I believe that is why she is consulting a divorce attorney. I don't understand why everyone keeps discouraging her from doing this!


Originally Posted by GreenMile
then giving him every opportunity to break down and change himself around makes the most sense to me.

Well, sure IF that is what Anne wants. Who could fault her for walking away?
There just seems to be a big piece of this puzzle missing. One either wants to recover broken love and restore respect, or recovery has already been written off. And MB is about the former.[/quote]

There is a big piece of the puzzle missing....how her WH will react to confrontation. It isn't always so cut and dried GM. I believe Anne is in that questioning phase. She doesn't KNOW what she wants.
[/quote]

That is so true, SW, including the part about the missing piece.

I am sorry, Anne, for having this side conversation on your thread about your plight, but Smiling Woman has a better grasp of this. I suppose I am personalizing it too much, since the person I was for so long was so much worse than your description of your WH. But that guy is gone, and I made a deal with him, that I would forgive him as long as he never showed his face around me or darkened my door ever again. There are echos of him, reverberating progressively a little less and fading away, but he has kept his end of the bargain. The only thing I want in return is to become the best person I can be and the best husband to DancesWithGoats that she could ever imagine, hoping that it will make the painful scars I caused, more and more tolerable over time. But your husband is a different person, and whether he will react that way is very much in question. So, you are right to get all your ducks in a row, so you can handle a divorce in the calmest and most beneficial way possible to yourself and the children. If he is not interested in changing totally, you have to spare yourself the unnecessary agony and wasted years, because it will only get worse. It would definitely be best to move on.

Just one more thing, Anne. From your detailed description, your WH is not necessarily morally bankrupt and irreparably damaged in his values. It could be that he simply has no concept of what marriage is, and has refused to turn over his separate self to a single entity where everything you both do is with the enthusiastic agreement of the other, with no secrets, and complete devotion to meeting the others needs. The separate self has to die. It can't be worshipped like it is in our popular culture, or there is no marriage. He has to give up the separate self. From his current standpoint of "being his own man" and not giving up himself, his actions to him do not seem morally bankrupt. If his concept of self and concept of what a marriage is is jolted into its rightful place by the reality of losing you, and what that would mean to him, his transformation is possible, and he can get the help he needs to figure it out here.

Last edited by GreenMile; 07/02/10 02:37 AM.

FWH, age 63. 24 years of narcissistic behavior, infidelity, and emotional abandonment of my BS, age 57, DancesWithGoats (DWG). D-day two years ago, leading to emotional breakdown. Been working MB program and toward spiritual transformation and personal growth since then, with some slow but real progress. DWG still with no trust, but with grief starting to subside a bit.
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Originally Posted by DancesWithGoats
Remember, if you do decide to recover we will help you. If you do not decide to recover we will help you.

Thank you for saying that. It's good to know I will have support and help no matter what I decide.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by GreenMile
Thinking about divorce and consulting a divorce attorney at this point with the finality that seems to show itself in Anne's writings, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. As long as Anne has protected herself, her expanding family, and her share of assets in the event that this guy is irreversibly a truly bad and calculating man,

I believe that is why she is consulting a divorce attorney. I don't understand why everyone keeps discouraging her from doing this!

Actually, seeing an attorney at this point makes perfect sense to me. As I don't know what my outcome will be, I feel most comfortable confronting him once I know all my options. Knowledge is power.


Originally Posted by GreenMile
then giving him every opportunity to break down and change himself around makes the most sense to me.

Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Well, sure IF that is what Anne wants. Who could fault her for walking away?


He will have the opptornity to break down and change himself around. I just don't have any confidence that he will take it.


[/quote]There just seems to be a big piece of this puzzle missing. One either wants to recover broken love and restore respect, or recovery has already been written off. And MB is about the former.[/quote]

There is a big piece of the puzzle missing....how her WH will react to confrontation. It isn't always so cut and dried GM. I believe Anne is in that questioning phase. She doesn't KNOW what she wants.
[/quote]

Yes, exactly. Since I don't know how he will react, I want to be ready for all possible scenarios. Seeing the attorney will help me to do that.


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