Remain,

Yep, you have got that one nailed.

Ok, let�s have a look at what you said. You said I think you see being open with him as confronting him with complaints or disagreeing with him. I don�t see communications as confrontations.

Notice something I just did in those last two sentences???? I used �I� so that you realize that this is my problem/understanding of something rather than yours. It is a very effective way to discuss something without it sounding like an attack.

So let�s go a bit further shall we? You said This one is sooooo easy. Each and EVERY time he does this, you say stop! You cannot tell me any more than I can tell you what to feel. What you hear is how I feel and then you leave the room. You do this without fail every time he critiques your feelings. You have failed to communicate to him how angry/hurt/frustrated/and diminished you feel when he does this so he continues. Your feelings are not a subject of debate or his evaluation. Same with your wants although stating anything as a �want� sounds like a demand or a critique from you. This one is easy. YOU SIMPLY DON�T PUT UP WITH IT.

You also said Ok, if want to see quiet you should see how I am when I am mad. If you want to see deadly, you should see how I am when I am attacked, silence doesn�t begin to describe it, it is total focus on accomplishing my goal, the destruction of whoever is attacking me. Men tend to get angry and loud about things that annoy them but are not serious, they tend to get silent as things become more serious, and they for the most part become silent around women because violence which is often not far from the surface is not acceptable to them or society when it comes to women. In short, his response is pretty normal.

Another piece of advice, men don�t fear silence like women seem to do. Silence does not bother us much at all and we KNOW that it does women so if they are on us for something,, �yes dear� and no more, works well. :p Now the real issue is he reacting to things that should NOT be bothering him, but do anyway? That is something to discuss with him. If you have a good sense of humor you might try that when he goes silent but I think leaving him alone to sort himself out is often best.

You also said See the first part of my answer to his approach to your feelings. You tell him when he hurts you otherwise he doesn�t know. As for counseling, yes by all means but with a pro-marriage counselor.

The following statement is a Disrespectful Judgement, DJ, You don�t know how he will react, but if he does this, simply ask him where he got his degree in counseling or if he feels he is so skilled he why he cannot communicate with you instead of lecture you? Just ask and then walk away.

I�ll end with this. You asked Whether you are the WS or the BS you can NEVER make a straight-up demand. Make demands and/or issuing ultimatums is calling someone out for a fight. Your marriage, my marriage, no marriage needs a fight. What you can express is something along the lines �When I hear� I feel as if I have no value and I am left to wonder what my role in this marriage really is.� Notice the I statements, notice the implied mention that you are evaluating your role and the implication you will make decisions on appropriate actions. Note you have expressed what is bothering you as well. Never corner someone unless you want a fight, never make demands because it forces someone to either fight or back down. In either case you are not making your relationship a positive one. Always leave them the option of doing the �right� thing.

You can express to him that some actions worry you, you can defend your boundaries such as not having your feelings disected. Those are good things to do.

Remember I asked you a lot of questions earlier. The reason was to see if there are ways under his defenses. Go back and read what I and Stanley have written now, and I think you will see where you are being guided to. New perspectives mean you will see your H in new light. You will see more strengths, but you will also see more vulnerabilities which often explain his reactions to things.

I must go, but please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

these are all boundary issues! one can avoid DEVELOPING chemistry by not buddying up to members of the opposite sex. one can refuse oneself the opportunity. one can QUIT BEING VERY FRIENDLY. i could have avoided my affair, and i chose not to. Darwin's lasso did not compel me. i made a choice.
constantly tempted, but now wary of sources of temptation. call it aversion training.
"Staaaan. The Memes-meister, talkin' some meeeeemes, makin' some copieeeees." OK, OK, seriously though: No family history of adultery of which I'm aware. but even if there were, i am really leery of pursuing that line of thought--biological and cultural influences are FACTORS, for sure, but it comes down to personal responsibility. even if my ancestors did nothing but cheatcheatcheat like randy minks for 40 generations, even if their earliest hieroglyphics depicted adulterous tribesmen slaying adulterous buffalos, that wouldn't absolve me of responsibility for my actions.
how much could you trust yourself if you believed your behavior was dictated solely by your genetic makeup and your heredity? hmmm, and wouldn't that give one license to indulge in all manner of base behavior? what if you were descended from a line of thieves, or brawlers, or just plain old JERKS? "i've got a gold-en tick-et.."
(insert singing smiley-face here)
what's your angle, Professor? how much stock do you put in the "Darwinian soft-wiring" theory? i'm inclined to dismiss it.

one step ahead of me, there, JL! THANK YOU!!!

I agree, memes do not play a role here.

How about?

1. Need for admiration
2. Being friendly
3. Struggles with monogamy
4. Impulsive, risk taker
5. Thrill seeker
6. Issues with H (see your prior posts)


You are already quite savvy about MB principles and very wise about everything else in life. I also love the fact that you understand rationalization and justification quite well. However, one can still justify even if one knows the meaning of justification.

Basically I see an unstable element that needs to decay into a more stable form.

What do you think?

Note: Not implying that the list is good or bad. In fact, I believe the list has common traits that apply to many.

You said in the 1st post of the thread:


As per your discussion with JL. You cannot open to H.

Shall I add that to the list?

1. Need for admiration
2. Being friendly
3. Struggles with monogamy
4. Impulsive, risk taker
5. Thrill seeker
6. Issues with H (see your prior posts)
7. Cannot be open w/ H

OK, 1 and 2 are boundary things. now that i know what i'm doing--being indiscriminately social is being EMOTIONALLY PROMISCUOUS--i can simply stop. i'm considering working for a very non-glamorous and low-profile non-profit, in fact, to avoid ADM-OPS. (that's "admiration opportunities", like it?)
if i make H my only legitimate source of admiration i'll have to depend on him more, and i'll wind up doing more of the stuff that HE admires in me. (plus it'll bring in enough to ease his immediate $ stress without screwing up the provider dynamic.)

3,4,5 i crossed out because they describe stuff that i'm INCLINED to but that i've always fought and don't indulge. even outside of adultery, there's not much room in our marriage for impulsive behavior and thrill-seeking.

6 and 7 are communication things and i haven't had tried JLs suggestions yet. there are some things i just need to grow up about, and that's one of them.


i see what you're saying. for us to be AFFAIR-PROOF, it's not enough to just avoid temptation. we've got to have a happy marriage as well.

is that scary or what. maybe they really COULD tell something about me that i didn't know. at any rate, i'm prepared to spend the rest of my life proving the smarmy little jerks wrong.

my time was screwed up. it should read 3.5 years ago. D-Day was november 08. also, what a despicable, pious little whiner!

I could be wrong, but for some folks infidelity is unavoidable and if they want to remain faithful they must behave like folks that belong to AA.

Do you think you can stay out of the bar where they serve booze for the rest of your life?

Not saying you are like an alcoholic, but it is something to ponder. I also do not believe you will cheat again. However, anyone can have an affair------including me.

I think i already asked this question, but here it goes once again. I ask because your posts suggest a mismatch.

Are you and H a mismatch? Sorry, but reading your posts to JL brings this point to the surface.

What you saw at age 18 is not what you see today.

BTW, why did you marry at age 18?


Well you were 18 when you got married and then there is that list. BTW, some of those points in the list apply to my wife who was 19 when she married me. However I was 23.

Remain,

You don't need to seek situations where your character is admired, where your talents admired. That was never the point. The point was that becoming vulnerable because you are admired is selling yourself...cheap. You should enjoy admiration, but you must also recognize it from your H as well and not only accept it, but acknowledge it to him.

Here is something for you to think about. You married young, especially in my book. I was 31 and my W 25 when we married. So you see my bias here. However, when people marry young they, as do anyone else but especially young people, either grow together or they grow apart.

Why are we focusing on the young part. You might well have been a mature young lady when you married, but I KNOW that you are more mature now and you will continue to grow into who you really will be in the coming years. Your H like many guys probably didn't really mature until his early 30's. He may have tried to act more mature than his age, but maturity isn't just about age. It is about brain development, and experience. Most guys are sort of "iffy" until around 30, even if they behave well in their 20's.

So given that you both have and are changing. Given that you have added children to the mix. Given that your H has gone through a variety of careers and you have had an affair, isn't it a given that you two really need to decide to grow together?

The conversations I mentioned to you in my last post are me pointing out that as a mature and worthy woman you must value and protect your boundaries. Your H as a mature and worthy man, must do the same. However, this does not mean you draw lines in the sand, it means you both discuss, plan, and execute a plan to bring happiness into each others lives.

Stanley knows this as do many of the BS' here. They don't want a spouse walking two steps behind with their head bowed. They want a partner, they want someone they can depend upon and talk with and plan a future with. Your H wants this if he is worthy of the title of H. You should want it if you are worthy of the title of W. The only issues are how to get there.

The info on this site offers ways to get their. But, it doesn't happen unless you get over your fear of your H and speak to him from your heart. Tell him what he is doing great at and where he is falling down. You need to hear the same from him, but you two need to be a team.

Have you read Harley's four rules for a good marriage? If not do so. Print them out and show them to your H and discuss them. Use them as a blue print for you two to discuss how you would like your marriage to proceed. Your H is an intelligent if slightly arrogant man. He thinks he knows alot.

Look at my login name. I chose it when I came here 11 years ago, because frankly I (in my 50's) clearly did not know as much as I should have about relationships and you know what? After 11 years here I am still "just learning". I come here to learn and see things in a new ways. It is true that there are definite patterns to how people handle things, say things, and do things, which is why MB works, but it is also true that as you see the patterns you begin to change your perspective on things.

So think more about the communications, but also read Harley's four rules for a good marriage and let's talk.

God Bless,

JL
PS: Have you noticed how many people have been reading your thread? It means that many are learning from your experience and are interested in you being a success.

That would mean staying away from all males for the rest of my life. so, NO. i think if i were an inveterate cheater, an addict, i would have done it before. there are hundreds of opportunities for everyone, every day. what i CAN do is try to be satisfied with my husband...and try to make sure he's satisfied w/ me. as i said, i THINK i'm meeting his ENs, but i can't be sure. all i can do right this instant is keep us both SFed to the gills so we don't have the PHYSICAL temptation. if you're worn out, you can't be restless, is my thinking.

YES, we're a mismatch. we're a TERRIBLE mismatch--right now. but i never told him so, i just tried to change myself to keep up with him. i played the game, and instead of TELLING HIM when i'd reached my threshold for faking it, i went and cheated instead. my rationalization was that it wouldn't be fair to ask him to change himself, it was probably impossible, etc etc, but i never gave him a chance to show me. he might BE willing to change. our personalities may be incompatible forever, but if we can adapt our behaviors to accommodate one another, then we retain our true selves and still make each other happy. so, to recap--it would certainly seem that we're a rampant, glaring, erroneous mismatch, but THAT MAY NOT BE TRUE. see?

i'll have to find my original post about getting married so young--in short, i didn't FEEL 18. i felt that i could go toe-to-toe w/ most 30-year-olds re life experience, smarts, etc. i felt very sophisticated and very much a grown-up, and i even remember thinking, "wow, who ever would have thought i would FINALLY settle down?" LMAO!!! basically i was PRECOCIOUS without being particularly MATURE.

you and your wife go waaay back to when you guys were teenagers, right? i read your original archived thread...sounds like she was a "likely candidate" given family history, etc., but she's faithful now, and you guys are happy together. what kind of incompatibilities did you guys have to overcome? expectations of each other, etc.?

here's my fear, stan--i'm going to be 100% candid. if my husband had been the one to stray, i would have immediately used it as an excuse to divorce him. i would not have fought for the marriage, because i didn't want to be married to him anymore. i was frankly shocked that he wanted to stay married to me. i still didn't like him when i found this site. now i'm realizing that we actually have a chance, that it's not impossible for me to happy WITH HIM, and to make him happier than he ever expected. i've got to try--married almost 9 years and i'm just now giving it a proper try???

we have radically different concepts of what marriage is for and what it entails. you've read what i want; you know the classic biblical model. I want that. In a secular sense, quite simply, I want us to be each other's favorite people. he sees marriage primarily as a stable foundation for raising kids. sometimes it sounds like he loves the INSTITUTION of marriage, but that he didn't realize that being married meant having a wife.

My wife waited 30 years before her affair and she probably had many opportunities. Let me add that she is a beautiful woman and always got the attention of men. I had opportunities too, but somehow did not have an affair. When my wife had the affair we were passing through a good moment, in fact our marriage was probably a 9 out of 10. Our firts marriage counselor thought my wife was nuts for cheating. The so-called distance between us developed when she started her EA. And that is part of rewriting history.

What I am trying to say is that anyone can cheat if the planets are aligned. Opportunity, the right conditions, and a willing cooperative affair partner. It is not so much that the WW decides to have an affair. The affair comes after there is emotional separation from the H and emotional connection with OM. For some that may take all of one night and for others it may take a year. But, the affair is not the problem. The problem is the deceitful behavior and the lying. Let me put this way. If there was a thing as affairs withou deceit life would be different.

So it may be more than the struggle of monogamy.


I knew my wife since she was 5 years old because we grew up i the same neighborhood. Lets talk about memes, LOL: Everybody in her family cheated. Therefore, I was doomed. In any event I had success for 30 years.

My wife's cheating had nothing to do with me as a person. In the end she would have done this to any other man. However, she never had compatibility issues with me. If she had said half of the things you said about your H I would have divorced her.


Obviously, your affair is different.

Does your H knows you feel this way?
If I was your H I would want to know.

OH NO. THIS is what a WAYWARD wife says all of the time to her Betrayed Husband. If that were so true? Then, your BW could just go find a DIFFERENT wife. He wants to try to save THIS marriage. The one with YOU in it. Stop putting judgments onto him that are NOT there. Has he ever told you that he only wants to have the INSTITUTION of marriage and NOT you?

MB CREATES compatibility in a marriage. A couple BECOMES incompatible through their actions pre-A. A couple not meeting each others ENs start living an incompatible lifestyle. Hence, any couple that experiences infidelity had an incompatible lifestyle.

i've asked before why he married me. not just out of the blue, mind you--last time was our 7th anniversary and we were in reminiscing mood...and he told me:

"after meeting my family", he was "confident we would have attractive and intelligent children".

i was a "warrior", a "trooper", and "not like all those other women who think their husbands are gonna going treat them like princesses."

that i was tough, and "didn't use tears to manipulate men."

that he had initial misgivings about my maturity, but that i "proved myself". and that his family agreed.

that i was "versatile and able to adapt to different circumstances without acting out" and that i was "at ease in all different social situations" so i would be be able to hold my own in public "regardless of what career path i pursue."

welll...that sounded to me like "good breeding stock, cleans up nice, doesn't whine too much, doesn't ask for too much, presentable enough if i decide to go into politics."

but he said the whole thing in this loving, nostalgic tone, like he really meant it. and it was our anniversary, i wasn't going to ruin it by saying WAIT a second, WTF?? are you kidding me, that's why you MARRIED me???

i've done my best to live up to it. and i want to continue to do so without disillusioning him, but i don't know how to ask for anything without becoming ONE OF THOSE WOMEN.

i know, i know--i just clarified in my post below. he DOES want to be married, TO ME in particular, he's told me so specifically. but the qualities he describes are not what i've got. so i've tried to be that, not to disillusion him, and it's killing me.

scotland, he has told me before that he wishes everyone would go back to the system of arranged marriages so that women wouldn't have these unrealistic expectations of their husbands. and he's included me graciously in the fortunate group who DOESN'T have unrealistic expectations of their husbands.

i don't want to disabuse him of this idea. i want him to be proud of me. i don't want him to think i turned out to be a demanding little princess after all.

i want to meet his needs so well that he gets receptive to meeting mine, without me ever having to tell him i HAVE needs, let alone tell him he's not meeting them.

Okay let me look at this a bit differently for you, shall I?


Doesn't that sound a LOT better than what YOU heard. THAT IS why he married you. BECAUSE HE THINKS YOU ARE GREAT.

BTW, sorry about the colour choice, I won't use THAT one again.

He HAS been PROUD of you. He sees things in you that you may not. Following MB plans and concepts will help you NOT be demanding but still sharing that you DO have needs and that he was not meeting them and you would LOVE for you BOTH to meet each others needs and have the most fulfilling marriage you could ever imagine. You could and WOULD become the ENVY of everyone because you would have the marriage most people dream of, IF you work the plans.

I am sorry but I don't remember a lot of your sitch right now, where are you at?

Scotland, i swear to you i'm not a weeper, but i'm shedding real-live tears.

was that residual fog-blather? was i just spouting resentful nonsense about my husband?

i so want him to love me. i want to do so much better than not "disabuse him of that notion." yet here i am being frickin snotty about something kind he said that i chose to misread.

i have so far to go.

THANK YOU!

You married him because he admired you. In fact he used typical OM smoothness to give you the admiration you wanted.

You also show a strong desire to please so you can get admiration in return. You want to be a perfect wife. I would not be surprised if you also wanted to be a perfect mate in the affair.

Within the context of looking for admiration I understand why my wife's OM was such a physical mismatch. All she cared about was the admiration. Thank God I dated her when we were teenagers running on teen hormones.

Is your inner self similar to your outer shell? Just checking.

I'm currently engaged in a modified reverse Plan A: over-the-top meeting of all his needs, fabulous attitude, lots of flirting, excellent cooking, kids out of the way, lots of sex.

not talking about the marriage per se; saying a lot of stuff like, "hey, d'you know what i'd LOVE to do?" "ooh, you know what i'd LOVE to do with you?"

positive reinforcement out the wazoo for any behavior i like; pleasant neutrality for stuff i hate. (and then i vent most pathetically and dishonorably on here after the fact. ;))

i feel really good and really confident about what I'M doing, and i'm at a chicken impasse when it somes to asking him to stop doing this or start doing that.

he seems really comfortable w/ the current condition of our marriage. he is of a strictly DEATH TO ALL PROGRAMS mentality, so all MB concepts are being introduced verrrry obliquely and w/out terminology.

i am not. i need to find a tactful, sweet, loving way to get what him to see what i'd like from him. eventually.

quite simply, i...am...scared.

but let me hasten to add, read my recent posts re boundaries and lack thereof, and what i see that needs fixing on MY part. it's not all evil fogulous ranting about H. we've come a long way.