Ok, heres my two cents,

First of all, a question. How did your lawyer act when you asked him what was the reason he didn't show that day? Was he REALLY sorry? Did he convince you he was at least? I hope he was at least that smart enough to know you needed him to, and that good of a talker to make you believe him, whether he was or not.

But onto other things, I will also say how it is true that the bank does not want your house, but you have filed and understand that.

Your husband most definatly deserves the credit for attempting to be responsible and supporting his family, does he still realize that it sometimes is a thankless job? The boys don't seem to be helping this much, which might be adding to his stress. Now when he gets pushed into these corners and he blows up, he makes things worse. THATS why he needs the anger management classes. He probably thinks its about him getting more pressure, but its about the proper way to handle stress. Him trying to bear the load for everyone and then getting disrespected is not the goal. Its about his learning that and many other things to keep him from losing his cool. Let him know that it is OK to get angry about what he is going thru, but not OK to lash out at others who either don't have a clue about his sacrifice, or are just to selfish to care. Also he is probably blowing up and taking it all out on one person when this happens. He needs to make those responsible be accountable for the things they did, and manage his stress. Not just suck it all up. In the end he still will have to let some things go, because children don't appreciate things like we want them to.

Ok enough about that, Now about that law suit.

The Plea bargain seems like par for the course for the legal system. To get the system to work hard enough to clear your son you will have to spend enough money to do it, or they will have to want to do it because there is some other benifet to them in it. I wouldn't count on them wanting to see truth served as the motive unless you think they will understand why your son had sex with this dumb girl. Do you? Then don't expect to sell them a story that your son is a poor victim here. If right and wrong are the motivation for seeking justice and you want to count on thier rightious indignance to prove that the prinecess wench is a manipulative liar, than the indignance just might extend towards your son sleeping with her too.

If this lawyer is really sure that he can get the plea bargain with the terms you mentioned then it is probably the best bet. It is important that he can get this done. I am leary on his maybes.

I would still get the lie detector test, I would still get the IMs verified. I would have this done privately and only if the results were positive would I make them known to the lawyer and/or court. Then any positive results I would use to light a fire under the Lawyers feet. Seek counsel on how you can get the IMs verified outside of a court order, it will probably be more reliable, and yes it will cost money. I am sure there is services that will do it for you, and if you really believe that your son did not send them, it will be the evidence that can win a court case. So get moving!

So do your boys appreciate what your husband is doing for them? It seems like they think hes a boob or a fool for working so hard and they are working some angle. Just know that an attitude can be developed in desparate neiborhoods especially in children who are surrounded by thugs and drugs. I am not picking on them as much as it is my observation,(and experience), and maybe moving to Luris neck of the woods or something similar might be a good idea for the future. Sometimes people need a fresh start. I'm not confident you should be trying to change the enviroment you live in, thats the politicians job, and they want money too.

As far as your son who has the drug issue and is on probation, I hope he is learning from this, and not getting more of the attitude of,"See, the cops and law are all just scam artists and crooked". Some may be, but it is peoples choices that give them thier job, you reap what you sow.

I beleive your whole family needs help in dealing with issues. I am sure you are trying but with the attitude everybody but you and your husband have its no wonder he is stressed out and things are crumbling. You must take care of You and your H first and no amount of Money will fix some problems. I know thats hard to hear writer but if bitterness and resentment continue to take its toll on your familys attitude and steal your hope it will just get worse.

Get into some family counseling and make those kids tow the line, respect what you are trying to build, and get behind you and your H. My heart truly goes out to you and your struggles.

I would like to tell you this long story comparing how my life as a young man sucked and how I had a lot of circumstances and an enviroment that was dragging me down too, but my experiance with that is people think thier different and how thier life is worse so they just brush it off. I think once this is settled you should move away from the enviroment and the people who seems to be influencing your Husband, You, and your children. Get some counselling for them all, and some distance from all this. Then there will be no reasons,(or excuses), for them all to screw up or blame the world for thier problems. It could be an eye-opener for them and an opportunity for a better life.

Some people just need to get away from adversity cuz they can't handle fighting all the demons. Theres no shame in admitting that, we wern't supposed to fight them anyway, just avoid them. Let God handle them.

Something I wanted to add to your knowledge base writer. Peoples brains do not fully develop in the Prefrontal-cortex,(the part responsible for reasoning and good choices), untill they reach 25 years old.

Something that might help your H when he tries to understand why these boys don't use thier heads. They can't, but don't mistake it thats no excuse for not respecting your parents and following the rules/law.

Kids are just pressured into growing up when they don't have any idea what that means really, and they are so looking for approval from anyone, and they wont admit they need help, are confused, and not as adult as they think they are.

Imagine, why do 18 year olds have the ability to put themselves into debt? What is the percentage of those that do learning about finances and benifiting compared to those who owe thousands of $ for years for stupid purchases? Think about it, was it designed to help them or take advantage of them?

Thats what i would have done too, after I greased him with 5G and all he had to do was enter a plea. After he didn't show I wondered though, and I have to admit, the Lie detector test and possibility of finding out hose Ims were bogus is just so tempting.

Remember, any evidence they present that can be refuted helps you. The Lie detector test is not admissable, The He said She said and the possibility of the court believing her version, ( she might just be crazy enough to belive her own lies, crazy people can be very convincing liars), is to dangerous.

But this evidence of the IMs is the only refutable thing they are bringing to bear against your son, and it could be the angle you can use to make sure he gets the plea deal that the lawyer is selling. Remember how I said you should hold his feet to the fire? Also, when it comes down to the time when the plea is on the table, it would be better if you knew thier evidence is bogus before hand, and you would be better prepared to decide whether to take the plea or fight. I wouldn't show your hand untill court though, there is a chance that this is all they have, and they might not use it if they know you can beat it. You will want them to use it if you can beat it. It will prove that they are lieing.

In the end the plea is cheaper, and though money should be no object to clear his name he has no record when it is all said and done. The small amount of time he has to serve should help him learn about how to stay away from little wild ones.

I am not sure what will show up in the future if he goes to trial, even if he is proven innocent of the threats. He still might have to publicly deal with the fact he slept with " lieing wench-princess of the duke of coke-dealer". Once it hits the dockets it becomes even more visable and might show up somewhere in the future.


Writer, It seems to me your lawyer has doubts that your son is innocent or he would have the IMs investigated, or he doesn't think its worth the expense when he can,(maybe), get a plea deal and avoid a trial you can't afford.

You on the other hand, have this opportunnity to find out that the evidence of the IMs is false, (or true if you are wrong), and it will make this all more clear in your head whether to fight it, or whether you are lucky to get whatever you can in a plea deal. Please investigate this for the sake of your exploring all options for your son, and of course your consciences sake.

Ok, does anybody think this makes sense? Can I get some feedback on this suggestion? Should They get the LD Test and the IMs investigated privately? To cement thier conviction that the boy has not done what he is accused of and use this if nessesary to make the plea details go thru or take it to trial?

PLease don't tell me you can't afford it. We have beaten that horse to death.

That won't happen because he's a juvenile and the records will be sealed FOREVER.


I think you're right about the attorney but not for the reasons you stated. I don't think the attorney cares one way or the other if her son is innocent, what's important is whether he thinks he can win.

The IMs probably CAN be analyzed and it WOULD be expensive, however, I don't believe they would be admissible at all because they are HEARSAY under the Rules.

I agree that she should get a private polygraph if at all possible and keep any unfavorable results quiet, however, analyzing the IMs would be a waste of time and $$.

I'd be willing to bet the plea offer is already on the table and the attorney is stretching it out until the last minute ($$) especially if Writer has mentioned wondering where all the retainer $$ has gone.

Really, geez..

I thought it would be admissible. Well what CAN be challanged?

Was the IMs part of thier case against her son? Were they going to use them? Why did the lawyer bring thenm up in the first place?

Im going back and read it so I can understand it better

The thing is, we can't have the IM's analyzed without the DA knowing about it. THEY have his computer. We don't have any access to it all. We can't get it back unless the judge orders it. Our attorney could request to have them analyzed, but the DA would require him to turn over the results if he did it.

So let me get this strait.

The D.A (Prosecutor) has your son's computer.
The computer that has the I.M. logs on it.

You're lawyer is telling you that as long as you don't ask to have the logs analyzed, the D.A. will never know about it?

Ummmm....

Does this sound silly to anyone else, or am I just not understanding how Law and Prosecution works?

The DA knows about the IM's. The girl gave them a printout of them when she filed the charges. The DA is just accepting her word at face value that they are real. So far, they haven't actually gone onto my son's computer to verify this one way or the other.

This is her first post about them and it doesn't explain why or if the emails could be verified independantly. It implies that in order to be verified, everyone would know about it. I don't know if thats true, and I doubt that it is. Maybe thats wrong but I am pretty sure there is some agency that can verify them discreetly, because I am sure that it is a security measure done to protect other people outside of legal actions.


Again the reference that Lie detector or email verifications will become automatic public knowledge. This is what leads me to belive its about money, because if court ordered verifications are cheaper or free for the defendant,because they allready have the computer in thier posession, then that would be the only explaination of how they become such knowledge to the court and can hurt them. I can't beleive that the lawyer would pay to get these done by an outside source, and then hand them to the DA when it will hurt his client.

Again Money and the disscussion of how expensive it will be..

Just something LG said that brings to mind not only the advice I also believed, but points out that when the plea gets offered, you better be ready to decide then what you are going to do.
So now I understand why he said this, but what I don"t know for sure is whether his email activity can be traced from his end. If he uses an email provider that can do this or not, or if there are ways to get this looked into by an outside source. I'll bet he wrote her angry emails, and suggestive ones, and he can't remember what he said. If what little wench is saying is that the emails are proof that he raped and threatened her, then what harm would it be if Writer found out exactly what they say by looking into this from her sons email client.?

Why not look into thier gun and see if its loaded?Here she talks about IMs too. You can set your instant messenger to log your convos. She also mentions those being analyised. Im am sure the little girl has printed those out after she set it to log and agravated her son into arguements with her to set him up. Many IM programs keep records on the server for quite some time and are available at a cost, (go figure). Writer can look into this herself too, and the records will be hers to do with what she wishs.

Again is this gun really loaded? How deadly are the bullits?

Even without the emails.. OK im spliting hairs here, but is there emails AND Ims? But beyond that, is the DA going to use them? If so, and I imagine they prove some threat or we would not be talking about them, knowledge of what exactly they say can work for her son either in difusing the wild acusations the girl has made by proving them false or benign, or taking any plea and being happy with it because they are proven to be just what she is accusing him of. This knowledge is power and will make it clear.

If he doesn't use the Emails and IMs, because the girl has embellished thier toxicity, Writers lawyer can use them to show how he was not what she paints him out to be.

Right now they are scary ghosts and they have no idea what they are.
Point that I was going to make too. As Tom said too , he is legally an adult and he should be ready to face the consequences and make the choice. If he is innocent and worrys about what can be proven versus the truth, it is up to him to choose the plea or the trial. The IMs/Emails are a scary variable because he says they are false, verification that can be brought up in a trial either way would help him make that choice.
This is reasonable advice IMO but even you wondered about why they were reluctant to go to trial Meggy. This fueled my resolve to push this too. Because the evidence or lack of? If thier evidence is ruled as hearsay, then it comes down to her word against his, then evidence of her character oppossed to his can be brought up?

If the DA does not use the Email/Ims becuase they are bogus then can Sons lawyer use them to prove his innocence or at least evidence that he was being goaded into this situation? What about her original threats towards him when she found out he was seeing a new girl? If Writer had all of the IMs and Emails instead of just the ones that help the girls case, wouldn't that help? It might make a more well rounded picture of what happened. Without all the Ims and Emails the wench can paint half a picture, and if they bring them up in any way, can't writers lawyer use them?

So thats what I was thinking about anyway

What makes you believe they wont?

Does this girl or her family have any history of trouble?

Lol your probably right on this. I have probably spent more time on this than he has, and am more concerned

Gack. As far as i remember you have to set up IM to log your convos. I used to do this for my kids.

The girl obviuosly did this before she goaded the boy into rage. But I bet she didn't print out everything and just gave the DA what would help her.

Writers son might not have records of IMs on his comp.

He might have email signature info there and copies of that activity tho

Her family are POS from what Writer said before. Her son talked about there drug use while he was there I believe.

Daddy was slick and used to deal coke when he was a truck driver but never got caught.

I mentioned bringing this up in court but got no response, I don't know if it would help, Writer has made no comment about my question of what the lawyer said about it.

Right now, I am just waiting to hear back from the lawyer about the plea bargain. He is hoping to hear something back from the DA by Friday. We are going to hold off on making a decision about anything else until then. My son has expressed a desire to take the plea bargain as long as it isn't something that will go on his permanent record, send him to prison, or make him register as a sex offender. Those are deal breakers for us.

Our attorney is reluctant to go to trial regardless of the IM's. He said it is very risky to put ourselves in a situation where the girl is able to take the stand and turn on the water works and tell her story, and I have already seen from our court appearances so far that she is very good at bringing out the drama. Our attorney has seen cases of he said/she said that had absolutely no evidence and the man was still convicted simply on the word of the victim. I'm hoping we don't have to take that chance, but we will know in a few days.

CP: Just some clarification. She printed the IM's from her computer. She had her Instant Messenger set to save conversations. My son did not. He also cancelled his Instant Messenger after they broke up (but long before she filed these charges) because she kept trying to contact him through it and he didn't want to have anything to do with her. We do have some emails she sent him in February (2 months after the alleged rape) telling him how much she missed him and cared about him and still wanted to get back together with him.

Gack: The father admitted to my son that he used to deal cocaine when he was a truck driver. But he never got caught, so he doesn't have a record. Her brother is apparently a drug dealer now. My son saw the paraphernalia when he was over at her house. The brother used to live with them, but I don't think he does anymore. That's all I know.

CP: I asked our lawyer about bringing up the family's history of involvement with drugs, but he said it wouldn't help because they don't actually have any convictions.

I thought that writer said if it goes to trial and he loses, then it will mean all kinds of exposure for him, but if the plea bargain goes thru, it will be sealed.

I was thinking along the lines that if they didn't take or make the plea bargain, there was no gaurantee that it would be sealed.

There was some talk a way back about whether it was going to be statitory rape or not and it depended on the age difference of the two at the time. It was a while ago so I will look it up. What I will guess is that if it was not found to be that then he would be charged as a minor. Let me quote that; BBS

Ah Bummer for ya.

That californian lingo isn't it?

As a juvenile, his records may be sealed even if we go to trial and lose. However, he will in all likelihood have to register as a sex offender if that happens, and that will definitely be public knowledge. His picture, name, address, crime, etc. will be published on the Megan's Law website for all the world to see.