My entire family has been thrown into a crisis situation, and I really need to just get the story off my chest and share it with someone. An anonymous forum seemed like the best place, since I�m not really allowed to talk about it anywhere else. This will probably get long, but I appreciate anyone able and willing to listen.

On Tuesday, my 17-year-old son was arrested for a crime he did not commit. I�m sure all mothers would defend their child in such a way, but it is true. He has been accused of a horrible crime by a very vengeful and mentally unstable ex-girlfriend. This is my �good� kid, and I really mean that. He has never been in any sort of trouble. He�s never been arrested, never been suspended from school; I�ve never even heard a single complaint about him from a teacher. He�s never once even given me cause to ground him. He is a senior in high school, two months away from graduation. He works on the yearbook staff and is an assistant in the office on campus. He is a very talented graphic designer and just an all-around goofy, funny, good kid. There is no physical evidence to back up the allegations this girl has made against him. It is just her word, and apparently, that is enough.

This good son of mine spent three days in juvenile hall with gang bangers and murderers and kids accused/convicted of other terrible crimes. We had to go to court on Friday and listen to someone say terrible things about him and sit quietly and not respond. Our son was released into our custody, but he cannot return to school. His senior year has been destroyed. We have no idea if he will even be able to graduate. He will miss his prom, grad night, and most likely walking at his graduation ceremony. All for a crime he did not commit.

We are trying to retain an attorney, but the fees will be $5000 - $10000. We live paycheck to paycheck. We have no money, no equity in our home. We own nothing of value. We have asked all of our relatives to help out, but they have very little. There is a possibility that my son�s biological father may be able to help, but he wasn�t around for 15 years of my son�s life and is very unreliable. The attorney we spoke with seems to think the evidence in the case simply isn�t there and our son has a very good chance of being cleared of all charges, but we have to come up with the money to pay him to take our case. If we cannot, we will have to go with a public defender.

My heart is breaking. All of this is happening because my son found out that this girlfriend was cheating on him and he decided he didn�t want to put up with it, so he broke up with her and started dating someone else and she couldn�t handle it. This incident she is accusing him of allegedly happened in December, and she just decided to press charges in March, literally within days of him starting to date someone else.

This situation has placed a terrible strain on my already strained marriage. My H and I have been having problems again for months now, though I suppose the problems never really went away. It seems like all we do is fight. If I try to express any of my fears or emotions over what is going on in this situation, he gets mad at me. I feel like I can�t talk to him at all, because I am met with only anger. I know he is hurting too, but I think it is important for us to pull together at a time like this, but we just seem to be drifting further apart. To make matters more complicated, as a condition of my son�s release, he has to be supervised by my H or myself or another adult approved by the court at all times. They generally only approve family members, and we do not have any nearby. Therefore, my H and I will have literally no UA time. Legally, we cannot. We cannot even go for a walk around the block without taking our son with us. Our house is very small and privacy is almost non-existent. This is really taking a toll on us, and it could go on for many months.

It feels like life is just trying to kick us when we�re down. Financially, this will ruin us. We will probably lose our home and have to declare bankruptcy. I fear that all of this is a blow that my already shaky marriage may very well not survive. I feel hopeless, torn up. It feels as though a bomb has gone off inside of me. I burst into tears for seemingly no reason at all. I am barely functioning, but I keep getting out of bed every morning because I know that there are people who need me to.

Thank you for listening. If anyone has any advice, or just words of comfort or wisdom, they would be greatly appreciated.

I am sorry you are going thru this. My girlfriend had a son same age, fought all the time with his girlfriend and he actually accidently killed her. They lost a lot in the court case and I think he is out of jail now.

Why did he date a mentally unstable woman in the first place? Did no one teach him how to break up with someone who is mentally unstable?

Maybe he could call her up and pretend to get back with her. If she drops the charges. Then get her to sign a paper saying he never raped her after all.

Then, once it all works out, he can let her down slow and easy by telling her some lie like he has herpes or AIDS or is GAY. That way she won't want to date him anymore. He can make himself undesireable to her. That is what he should have done from the first with that mess of a girlfriend. It is always better to break up with a clinger by "letting them break up with you". By making yourself undesireable to them in some way.

Did he dump her in a really hurtful way or something? Did he promise marriage and then dump her like a rock? Did he lead her on and then smash her ego?

For one thing, he will have to give up the new girlfriend. That is a must until he is thru this issue. Then you have to find out why he is attracted to crazies.

You have three adult children. Put all your kids to work at jobs and you will have the money for a good attorney. I bet the 15 year old could mow lawns. It would unify your family...to have to work toward a goal.

1. The 18 year old could bring in 1000 a month
2. The 20 year old could bring in 1200 a month
3. The 17 year old can mow lawns with dad when dad is home
4, Dad can work overtime perhaps (maybe he can net 5000 a month)
5. You can work fulltime bringing in 1200 a month
6. One of the kids can babysit the baby. While you work
7. Go to Winco to get food, it is a lot less
8. Call credit card companies and pay those off or settle.
9. If you all can bring in 10000 a month for a year you will have the money that is needed.


Then, when all this is over, make your 17 year old son work to pay the family back. He can work a couple years and pay the family back.

Get a referral to an attorney who will not only get him the proper defense for a conclusion of innocence, but stick her with the bill for malicious false accusation.

Call Greg Skordas' office and get a referral for an attorney who would take the case on this basis.

He will miss his prom, grad night, and most likely walking at his graduation ceremony. All for a crime he did not commit.

I would not worry about this, all this is boring crap anyway.

Get some evidence that she was cheating. That would help too. I i cannot remember who you call for someone to go interview her cheating partners and get affadavids telling when they cheated.

Was your son having sex with her? At that age sex can lead to explosive results. He is too young to be having sex. Is she underage?

Let's see. He broke up with her because he found out she was emailing naked pictures of herself to someone she barely knew who she met on the internet.

We didn't know she was crazy when he was dating her. When she started doing weird things (like the one above) he broke up with her.

Getting back together just to get her to drop the charges seems like a very bad idea, and he can't legally do it. If he has any contact with her, he goes right back to juvenile hall.

My two oldest children do not live at home. My DS 20 lives in Colorado and my DD 19 is a full time college student and lives in the dorms. I can't get a job because my son was released to my custody due to the fact that I am a SAHM and could provide 24-hour a day supervision. My H's work doesn't offer overtime, and because of the commute, he is already gone for 12 hours a day, so getting a second job would mean we would never see him and he would never sleep. We do all of our shopping at Winco. It is my favorite grocery store. My H has called the credit card companies, since we were having trouble paying even before all of this. We were doing okay with the payment plan we set up before, but it'll be difficult to impossible to pay anything on them now if we have to pay an attorney basically more than we make. He wants to set up a payment plan over 3 months, but we don't even bring home $10,000 in 3 months. Not even close, actually.

My son was very involved with school. He was very much looking forward to these things. It was important to him.

How old was she when she did this? She could be charged with distributing child pornography.

I'm sorry this is going on. Can he attend those events so long as you are with him?

Apparently, the guy she was sending naked pictures of herself to doesn't even live in our state. She's never even met him. She was sending naked pictures of herself to him even though she didn't actually know him. According to my son, she has deleted all evidence that she was doing this from her computer. I have no idea how to find out who this guy is.

Yes, my son admitted they were having consensual sex for 2 months prior to the incident. You're right, he is way too young to be sexually active. He realizes this now too, but it's a little late. I had no idea this was going on. I thought they were being properly supervised when over at her house. Apparently not. We know her parents. We talked to them about this extensively and thought we were all on the same page. My son has told me some very scary things he witnessed while over at her house. He didn't tell us about them at the time, because he liked this girl and didn't want us to make him stop seeing her. It seems that her parents are physically/emotionally abusive to her and that they use illegal drugs in their home. I just never would have expected it. They are very religious and I had no reason to suspect any of this was going on.

Get someone else, another adult, authorized to babysit your son while you go to work. Find out who this girl sent her pictures to and get copies. Have a detective in that state interview the reciever of the pictures.

If she was sending naked pictures online, she surely was having sex with your son, right?

She's 16 right now, so she must have been 15 or 16 when she was doing this.

He might be able to walk at graduation. The rest, probably not. We don't even know if he'll actually get his diploma, since he still has 2 months of school left and we don't know how he will finish them. It's spring break here, so I haven't been able to contact the school yet.

Sorry he had sex with her, sorry.

Sorry that she was not the age of consent.

Your attorney should subpoena her text/phone records to demonstrate the px came from her. Case should be thrown out at that point and your son reinstated to school.

Words of comfort here: I once went through an experience that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. There were about 60 of us in this class. Two were selected by the staff for a specific experience, which left them going through a celebration toward the end of the experience excluded from the celebration. I was aware of them being left out and wondering how things would ever be made up to them.

I listen to the leader of your church speaking about this same thing this morning - how will this loss be made up to your son?

I promise you - be faithful to your faith; teach your son to be faithful and trusting in Heavenly Father. The miracle will happen - if not in time for prom and graduation, in other ways, more lasting and better.

Teach your son Romans 8: 28 - and believe.

Another thing is that your son will have to grow up from this experiance and hopefully he will quit having sex until he is much older. This issue is difficult but could prevent him from getting into worse trouble in the future.

Just like me. I had breast cancer and doing the chemo and radiation for 8 months was really hard. But as my husband said, sure it is difficult but just think, doing that now could prevent a worse type of cancer from attacking you in the future!

Bubbles - I have a 17 year old son who is of the same faith as writer1's young son. You have no idea how hurtful your "helpful" comments are right now.

**** edit - you're right - there was sex. so there's another tough hurdle to get over. The conflict with his own faith's teachings. He may get in the way of his own defense.

Writer1 - have you and your son talked with your bishop this week? Enlist his help. You don't know all the workings of God's hand in this to bring your son back from a terrible brink. Trust Him.

There are so many other worse things that he will be protected from now.

1. He won't marry a woman like that now

2. He did not get her pregnant

3. He did not marry her or elope with her

4. He did not get his other girlfriend pregnant, yet

5. He will learn from this experiance and be wiser

6. He can quit having sex with girls until he is at least 21

7. You as a family can develop a better rule system for him


Lots of good can come out of this terrible situation.

""Yes, my son admitted they were having consensual sex for 2 months prior to the incident. You're right, he is way too young to be sexually active. He realizes this now too, but it's a little late. I had no idea this was going on. I thought they were being properly supervised when over at her house. Apparently not""

OK, I am outta here!!!

((((writer))))

Just a few thoughts. First, there are things you can't control. One of them is the past - even five minutes ago. Might your son have made a bad dating choice? Yes. He's a teenager. What's done is done. Has your son had sex? Yes. I wonder how many people on this board had sex while still teenagers. If every person who had sex as a teenager is devoid of morals, most of my high school friends must be sociopaths. Your son made some mistakes. He is being punished by this girl not because she was brutally assaulted but because she has sour grapes and wounded pride from being broken up with.

I wish I knew someone who took cases like this pro-bono or that I was independently wealthy so I could help. I can pray that this girl blows it and that she is seen for what she is. The charges being dropped altogether would be a wonderful thing.

As far as UA goes, that stinks. But sometimes in crisis it really just isn't possible to do everything MB perfect. It just isn't. If my H had a stroke tomorrow and couldn't communicate, the EN of conversation just wouldn't be met in the same way until he regained his speech and coordination. Life gets in the way sometimes - it just does, at least in the imperfect world around me.

Please take care and keep us updated. From one mom to another, consider yourself hugged.

Writer, I am so sorry this is going on, and humbled that you have shared it with us. I will definitely be keeping you and your son in my prayers. I can't imagine the pain and grief your son must be feeling right now. I'll bet he now knows who his true friends are, and I hope he has a few good ones who are loving him through this, just like his family.

Writer I'm very sorry this is happening to your son & your family.

I have seen or witnessed this happening on several occasions.
Yes, technically is was stat rape but this law needs to be altered.

Yes , I know these laws are in place to protect but when it is consenual, that is totally different. Every instance needs to be looked at individually considering under what circumstances.
Before arresting a young kid & ruining his life & the rest of his HS career.

A guy I went to high school with had this happened he dated the girl for 2yrs & after they broke up,her parents found out about them having sex & filed charges against him. It was so sad & unfair.I do not even know if he ever got the legal trouble resolved to this day. I do know he was labeled as sex offender for many years.

Like you his parents racked up many $$$$$ fighting for their son.

Just a suggestion there are lawyers that take cases based on the unfairness of situations that work for pro bono or a small fee. Let your fingers do the walking & start calling & searching online for lawyers that handle these types of cases.

I realise you do not have time on your side but you have to do something to keep yourself sane !

Their has to be a silver lining in this some where !

Just remember everything happens for a reason , we may not know what at the time but there always is.

What does not kill you will only make you stronger !

Thank you everyone for the words of comfort and encouragement. I can really use them. I am reading, even if I'm not responding too much. I guess I just don't know what to say. My head is still reeling. It's been less than a week since our entire world was turned upside down and I'm still processing everything I guess.

Right now, we're going to the Wild Animal Park as a family and just walking around and looking at some beautiful butterflies and hopefully talking about anything but this. It's all we've talked about since Tuesday and honestly, I just can't think about it right now. I just want to sit under a tree and stare at a gorgeous blue sky and watch some giraffes munch on hay.

I will be back.

It isn't statutory by Utah law according to what I have read.

I do think it was good advice to let your fingers do the walking through the yellow pages. You can get a terrible attorney that way, but you can also get lucky and find a young lawyer trying to build his/her practice and who would do a great job. It costs you nothing but time to talk on the phone or even go see one for an interview and a free consultation.

If your son has the details of substance abuse, then extract those details from him and let your attorney know. He will find a way to use that as leverage if it is true and I have no reason to not believe what you son is saying.

Have you discussed a polygraph test? Has CPS been called? They have the ability in most states to do a polygraph and she is underage and so is your son. In fact, maybe CPS would be a good place to go if you can get them interested. You have information about substance abuse and child abuse. Of course they might blow you off because of the court case. But they may not if you can find a sympathetic case worker.

One more stone to overturn.

Larry

She's in California, though.

How are you today, writer?

SC: Yes, I'm in California.

I'm okay. I haven't been sleeping or eating well, but I'm hanging in there.

I keep looking at the clock, thinking how my son should be in 1st period right now, but he isn't. It's hard. I have to call the school this morning and figure out what our options are. I just want him to be able to graduate. That is my focus for the day. That and taking the baby to the doctor for her 18-month checkup.

writer,

He's being charged as a juvenile & being held in juvenile hall, not jail, right?

I know, if this is the fact, it doesn't make it any easier on you. As a mom, it kills to see you child going through such a serious problem and you feel helpless.

My suggestion, having "been there-done that"...

Quickly gather some "character reference" letters for him. Get family, friends, neighbors, church, school to write letters for him describing the type of person he is. Let the court know he has support behind him, he is NOT a troublemaker, and he is loved & admired by many & typically a good kid. Get those letters & ask the public defender if you can have them presented to the court.

And, yes, I said "public defender." Writer, don't let a court appointed public defender scare you. You are not tossing your son to the wolves or giving up on him by allowing him to be court represented.

True story-- a young man (kid) was charged with a crime. Naturally his mother was frantic. She also did not have alot of money but checked with local highly respected lawyers (free consultations) to see if it would be possible. It wasn't. With an extremely heavy heart she attended the court appearance when he was assigned the public defender. Who was he assigned? THE very lawyer she had wanted if she had had the money ($8,000)!!!!! Not all public defenders are brand new with little to no experience. Many seasoned, highly respected established attorney's sign on as court representatives too when their schedules permit. And it's OK if your defender isn't highly experienced. Sometimes the newer ones tend to try harder to win to establish their reputation. PLEASE don't kick yourself over this and put your family's future in great jeopardy. A public defender is OK, writer!! Honest!! This kid? Charges were eventually dropped due to the lawyer's perseverance and the kid ended up with no record.

Be sure to let us know what happens writer.

Hang in there!!!!

((((writer))))
Sorry your family is going through this. I hope your son is able to use this time to grow emotionally, rather than become bitter. Lots of kids make mistakes--no one was killed (right?) so most of this will be reparable. Ten years from now, he won't care about the prom, etc., even though I know he doesn't believe it now.

Yes, my son is a juvenile and being charged in juvenile court. He spent 3 days in juvenile hall and is now on home probation. He has to call a probation officer everyday and whenever we leave the house and tell them where he's going. He has to be in my presence every minute of the day, or in the presence of another adult approved by the probation officer. We haven't figured out how to get anyone else approved yet. You only get a machine when you call and they aren't too good about returning calls.

Our experience with the public defender hasn't been great so far. I liked her when we first met her, but she didn't do much when we got to court. She hardly said anything. She didn't even fight it when the judge decided my son wouldn't be allowed to finish out his last two months at the high school. She never said anything at all really. She's very young and probably not terribly experienced.

We will only be able to hire a private attorney if my son's bio father pays for it. He's supposed to be wiring the money to the attorney today, but of course, he isn't returning our calls again, so who knows what's going on. He disappeared for 15 years after he was ordered to pay child support, right after the first payment was taken from his paycheck. My son has only seen him twice in the past two years. I don't feel too bad about making him pay for this, since he owes me for 18 years of back child support, which I know I'll never see. Of course, getting him to do anything he says he'll do is like pulling teeth.

I know your senior year isn't that big of deal in the long run, but high school was my son's entire life right now, and the entire thing was just ripped out from under him. It's very hard for him right now, and no I don't like to see my kids suffer, especially when he didn't do what he is accused of doing. Yes, he made some stupid mistakes, like any kid, but my son is NOT a rapist. That much I know. I've lived with this kid for almost 18 years. He's a good kid. Even the attorney we spoke to and the public defender do not think the case will ever go to trial. There are way too many holes in the girl's story and absolutely no evidence. But that's not stopping her from ruining his last few months of school.

Writer


You do understand you can make his bio father's life a living hell over back child support if you want to, right? It isn't like it used to be. He won't be able to get a driver's license if you want to really go after him. You can always offer to settle his back cs if he pays for a lawyer now.

Larry

Again, unless you think that your son is not telling the truth, CPS may be an angle you want to try. They can give polygraphs on a whim. And they actually have more real authority than just about anyone else in the real world. It bothers me what you said about drugs and abuse.

Larry

Larry, I have no reason to think that my son is lying. He's never lied before. I'm just biding my time right now. I want to speak to our attorney before I do anything regarding the info my son has given me about this girl's family. I want to make sure I handle this the right way.

As far as back child support goes, I have thought about it. But my son is only about a month away from turning 18, so I would have to do it before then. At least, that's how it was explained to me. I have a support order against him somewhere, but he disappeared for 15 years, and the DA closed the case some years ago when they were unable to locate him. Turns out, he was living in Mexico. I only have a cell phone number for him now, and it's still unclear if he lives in Mexico or Texas or possibly both. I actually called the child support offices last week, but I could only get a machine, and I couldn't get anywhere with the machine unless I had a case number, which I don't anymore. I finally got a line that seemed to be leading to a live person, and then was told the line was too busy and I'd have to try back later before it hung up on me. Ugh!

I am really becoming quite jaded against the American judicial system very fast.

I have to believe you've already googled "California" plus "Age of Consent"

Here's wikipedia:





Subsection (c) is the scary one. When is the young lady's birthday. I believe you said she's already 16 and your son has yet to turn 18, thus, they are less than 3 years in age difference and Subsection (c) doesn't apply. Subsection (a) applies...by making it illegal for him (and the girlfriend) to have sex at all...but you have to read down to figure out where to classify such "act".

Which leaves Subsection (b) as the only applicable subsection. A misdemeanor. A misdemeanor shouldn't require a sex offender registry nor should it involve jail time. Since it appears the only applicable subsection...I doubt it will ever even go to trial. Not to mention, in lieu of a trial, many counties have diversion programs which allow "defendents" to avoid prosecution by staying out of trouble (i.e. Probation) and doing some required work (counselling, community service, etc.). Their records will become "clean" once completed ("minors" records are usually sealled anyway but at least he'll never have to disclose it even on say, a law school application as the diversion program is as though it was never prosecuted at all). In fact...by the subsections terms the X-girlfriend could be charged with the same misdemeanor. My feeling is the judge is being hard on him right now (not allowing him to finish out the high school year) because, in the end, the fear of prosecution and missing out on school will end up being the only punishment he gets.

That is...as long as there isn't a THREE year PLUS age difference between the two of them. If there is a 3+ year age difference he COULD BE prosecuted for a felony and/or a misdemeanor. There are also fines involved with money going to a teenage pregnancy information fund. Again...diversion programs may exist.

Mr. Wondering

Mr Wondering, I have the feeling her son is accused of way more than two minors having consentual sex. The young girl is probably accusing him of forcing her to have sex with him.

If it was just a case of two minors having sex, then they WOULD BOTH get misdemenors for what they did.

But it is not simply that.

Also, the boy would not be under house arrest for simply having agreed upon sex with the girl.

It has to be much worse than that, what this girl is accusing Writer's son of doing.

He has been charged with one count of rape by force and one count of oral copulation by force.

The girl waited 3 months to file charges. During that 3 months, they spoke on the phone over 200 times. Some were him calling her and some were her calling him. Many of the calls lasted over an hour. During this time, my son repeatedly told her that he didn't want anything to do with her and she repeatedly tried to convince him to take her back.

She filed the charges about a week after my son started dating someone else, after calling this girl and badmouthing my son to her repeatedly.

There is no physical evidence because she did not go to the doctor and there were no witnesses.

My son has talked to a few mutual friends and has been told this girl has admitted to at least one person that she was filing these charges just to make his life miserable. Of course, the person she told was her best friend, who is very much on her side, so not likely to help our case.

That friend needs to be subpoenaed and have the fear of perjury put on her butt.

W1:

Sorry to hear about all this.

Don't be afraid to ask for a different public defender...

LG

Sometimes it works. XH wasn't paying. Letter to the local CS office in his county through the CS office in this state and about three months later, the money flowed like the river. It was that or he lost his driver's license, hunting license, etc. The lady in the county CS office in his state is a serious pit bull.

Talk to your Lawyer about CPS. CPS can give lie detector tests in most states on a whim. Yea, not allowed in court, but as a practical matter, most of the time a DA will see a negative one and dismiss the case immediately.

And I agree with a deposition for "Best friend." It is amazing how fast one will sell out when they get in an intimidating atmosphere with an Attorney asking questions. If she is a minor, might not be able to force her to testify depending on the state you live in.

There are people advertising on the Internet who can supposedly tell you where a cell phone is located. I understand the technology and it is possible.

Just out of curiosity, ask the Lawyer if CPS gets involved in the case anyway because she is a minor. I dunno if she can be forced to get on the stand or not. The case load for a public defender in most offices is at the point of insanity. So you have to be very determined to do what you can to get the lawyer on your side so they will go the extra mile to take care of your son's situation.

Larry

Writer, I cannot do anything but support the advice of MrW, Larry and the others who know about the Law.

Getting the character references and even mailing them to the judge who will hear the case along with the district ATTy might be a good Idea also.

What CW said about getting your sons new GF to testify or seek CPS for help against this attack might help too. Call the Gov office.

I bet I know how your son is. He is generally quiet and kind? He got hooked up with this girl probably because of that trait. If her family are addicts they know first hand how to manipulate and they will do everything out of selfishness.

Get some info on the family also. I bet they have been in trouble before. Do you have any freinds who can help you do these things while you are hurting so bad?

IMO and it seems MrW who I believe is a lawyer it seems to me that if you get enough evidence o your sons good character and enough of her familys bad and get it in front of the DA and Judge this case may never go to court.

Again CPS is very powerful and could expose her whole family for who they are. Start the process for a new PD even if you plan on hiring another lawyer. Any messages that the court hears or see that show that you are going to fight this will cause them to look into details more sharply. You want that if you can prove the character of the girl and her family can be shown.

Even if your son has allready admitted to the court that he had sex with her if you can prove it was consentual and that she was only calling it rape after he broke up with her, (like the new GF testimony).

Or CPS blowing the door off there drug addictions and causing the parents to get in trouble because of what there daughter did(which will cause great problems with those ppl and divide her family).

Again get a freind or someone in the church to help you by spending time with you and making calls with you.

Tell your Son not to stop being a kind kid and you guys hang tight. This too shall pass.

Praying this will draw you all closer together and I hope your H will go to counselling with you and son so you can work through this without LBs

I hope you have a better day today W1

It's very sad what this young woman put you through. Your story is an example of why I plan on having some serious discussions with both my daughter and my son as they get into that portion of their young lives. So sorry for your son.

I hope today will be calmer.

For now, my son will stay officially enrolled in his high school, but will be on independent study for at least the next month. This was the best we could do, and the only option that would leave the door open for him to walk at graduation if we can get the judge to agree to it at our next hearing.

Imanotherone: We've had that talk with all of our kids. We also had a no dating until the age of 16 rule. Guess that didn't work. So, as far as the baby goes, she's officially not allowed to have a boyfriend or date until she's 30 and married.

I hope all your days are calmer. Prayers are up for you and yours. We have a local girl in trouble for sexting pictures of herself to several boys, and the parents of the girl are angry that the boys she sent them to are not also in trouble, which I find troubling. They didn't DO anything. But it gives me hope that some judicial systems are reasonable, and I pray that yours will be in this matter.

That's like my rule, writer. Mine are not allowed to date until they are older.

Than me.

Good rule!

See, I just tell my DD that dating is irrelevant because I am sure God loves me enough that Jesus will come back before she is old enough to date. She just rolls her eyes.

I think these are all excellent strategies!

Writer - it's past time to reconnect this young man and yourself with your faith. I've been feeling so strongly about saying something for the last week since you posted it but didn't really know why.

It's such a part of who you are, that I'm certain that the distance is adding to your pain right now.

Please go with your son and talk to the bishop and seek a blessing.

Two really good books to help: "He Did Deliver Me From Bondage" - I only remember the author's first name "Colleen". And the other is "The Worth of Every Soul" or the previous title "The Worth of A Soul" by Stephen Cramer (he used a pseudonym for the first edition, then re-wrote it under his real name). You and your son could benefit from reading these two books together while he's home on independent study. Pray and fast about a solution.

Writer - I'm new to the forums (posting at least, been lurking a while) but I've always admired you and your story. I just wanted to let you know I'm very sorry for the situation your family is in and I'm praying for you. I'm also LDS and if I knew your name I'd put it on the temple prayer roll (you're free to email me, my addy should be in my profile - I'm not sure if I can put Writer1 down on the little slips, though I'm sure the Lord knows what I'd mean).

I don't have much advice but just lettin' you know I'm here. Oh and I am completely on board with your dating strategy for your daughter....

Writer-I continue to hope for a good outcome for you boy. I'm sure this is a horrible time for you. I shared a bit of your story with my 13-year-old this morning--told her that young women should NEVER abuse the truth for personal gain.

I did the same yesterday with my 17 yr old son; told him if by chance I had a daughter, I'd be having a similar but different conversation with her.

Thinking and praying for you, W1

I'm glad our story is touching other people's lives for the better. We've had many "sex" talks with our kids, mostly revolving around the fact that you shouldn't do it until you are old enough and mature enough to accept responsibility for your actions. We've always made it clear to our kids that sex is for committed, mature, married people. My son has told me many times over the past week that he wishes now that he would have listened to us on this one. It never occurred to me that something like this could happen to our family.

Kayla: I have been contemplating the church situation for a long time. I didn't grow up in the church, or any church for that matter, and I realize now that I joined for all the wrong reasons, mostly social. There are some things I struggled with for a long time, and then when I started grad school, I really started to question everything I had done and why I did it. I still don't have all the answers. Sometimes, I feel as though I really want to go back to church. There are some things I miss about it a lot. But there are still a few unanswered questions and issues standing in my way. It seems so difficult to overcome. Plus, no one else in my family is thrilled about going back. The boys would rather sleep on Sunday mornings, though they do attend Seminary and Mutual (well, I guess my 17-year old won't be going to Seminary anymore, since he isn't allowed near the school and the church is across the street). My H has developed a bit of a coffee habit. I don't know how many cups a day he consumes to keep himself awake at work, since none of us are getting much sleep these days. He seems amicable enough about going back, but not terribly excited.

We're taking a night off tonight. My 17-year-old is staying with my mom and my other son is watching the baby and my H and I are going to see Five For Fighting in San Diego. We've had the tickets for awhile and didn't want them to go to waste. I'm having a hard time getting into the thought of going to a concert right now, but I'm sure we'll have fun once we get there.

Don't let coffee or sleep keep you away - your family desperately needs the spiritual fortification right now. I've read what you write, when you write about your faith and while you have questions, you also have more answers than you give yourself credit for. Use the link I posted in OT and watch Elder Holland's talk, then watch two a day until you've watched the entire conference - there were some great things shared that would comfort you or direct you right now in this situation.

Also - call your son's seminary teacher and see if he can watch conference talks and write reports or something to help him keep up there. I realize that his admitted behavior with this girl may keep him from graduating from seminary, but he still needs the spiritual strengthening.

I don't want you to blame yourself here, but please realize that your son's recovery will be easier with the return to his faith than without it.

And your marriage has a greater probability of survival in activity than outside of that activity. Going to church, reading scriptures and praying as a family tends to help husbands remember their priorities rather than blame.

P.S. I didn't grow up in an active family - everything I do within my faith is because my husband and I chose to make it a priority. Our path has not been easy; in fact it's been pretty doggone tough, but I would hate to see how I would think and feel about my life if it weren't for my faith and daily renewal in that faith.

Writer, I understand your frustration. We can talk to our kids about the dangers of premarital sex, and of having sex at a young age, but it seems we can't arm them with the tools necessary when those strong teen urges strike.
Look at the Palin family. I'm quite sure that mom and dad told Bristol "just say no," but when push came to shove, those hormones kick in. Your situation is compounded not by an unexpected pregnancy, but by felony allegations. In many ways, to your son, I'm sure this is worse than an unplanned pregnancy. I wish I had an answer.
Sadly, I don't think any of our Western religions do a good job in preventing teen sex. In some, it just encourages kids to get married "very early," to prevent unwed sex, but is that really the solution? Had your son "married" this girl, were they really adult enough to be committed? Of course not. So, in the eyes of the church, your son gets tossed, while some other 17-year-old who decides to marry his teen bride gets a pat on the back. Neither was ready, IMO.
But that's for another day, after we get past this crisis. I feel terrible for your son. And in the "church of imanotherone," he certainly would be welcome

Talked to a prosecutor friend of mine here in Michigan whose had to make decisions in these type cases many times.

He suggested you try to get a PRIVATE polygraph test. If your son passes (which he should...right?) then you give the private test results to the prosecutor and offer to take a state one thereafter...if required (they MAY rely on the private one since most private ones are adminstered by the same people they know and trust). IF he fails...you keep the results your own little secret and WORRY because your son is lying to you. Probably plea bargain time at that point.

He also said that 99.99% of the time, a woman that young will NOT recant her story. She's too invested in the lie and mostly do to parental pressure will NOT cop to the truth. Her friends will most likely lie for her too (as will/would your sons friends) so all those outside parties just aren't trustworthy no matter what they say. [though getting HER friend to incriminate her would be beneficial].

As a prosecutor...HE, personally, was reticent to prosecute and charge people in these situations UNLESS he felt he could get a guilty verdict. He wondered if there was more to the story or if the prosecutor had a few "golden nuggets" of information (like maybe an email or saved chat session wherein your son "apologized" for being "aggressive" or forcing her or something) because that's what it would have taken him to move forward (based upon the facts & circumstances you gave me including...the delay, the phone calls and the timing of the charges). He also thought the "house arrest" was suggestive that there was MORE evidence in the file than just a "he said-she said" case. Your defense attorney will be able to see anything they have in due course. My friend said he operates under a duty to not waste the taxpayors money. HOWEVER, not all prosecutors office operate that way. Many, maybe even most, don't feel ANY duty to "decide" to not prosecute. They feel that is the juries decision to ascertain the truth and as such they have a duty to charge EVERYTHING and allow the chips to fall as they may. [sidenote: this philosophy also guarantees JOBS....be it court personnel, defense lawyers, judges, prosecutors, etc.].

As far as using the court appointed attorney or not. It's a crap shoot. Some court appointed attorney's are GREAT whereas others are fresh outta law school and merely on some list and don't have a clue. The same can be said of a PAID attorney, though most that claim a speciality will at least have SOME experience. He recommended interviewing the court appointed one and going on your gut. If you can't afford an experienced one and don't like the one appointed...TRY to switch.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

I tend to think this case is one that keeping everyone employed. I have the luxury to believe what ppl say based on the story you have told I would do the lie detector thing MrW suggested.

In times like these when you might feel God is punishing you or you have reaped what you have sown, (all not true), it also might be difficult to expect victory in this battle.

I encourage you to not accept the accusations of the enemy and to instead expect God to provide a way.

Remember, we are the apple of His eye and He will protect us.


Get some practical help from friends, fellow parishiners, or even a law student from a local colledge for phone calls, running errands and any documents chasing.

"Hope maketh not ashamed"

I agree with the advice that you're getting from Mr. W. Early in my career I worked for the public defender's office, juvenile division. I was in charge of interviewing the parents the morning after their children were arrested and before they went into the hearing to see if they would be held or released to their parents pending trial.

In my experience, they are more likely to hold a kid if the charges are very serious or if they were at risk to offend again. Your son being released to you is a good sign IMO. I agree with Mr. W, get a private polygraph done, and start gathering character witnesses for your son. Showing the Court AND the prosecutor that you are going to be a proactive parent in defending your son will look good for you as opposed to the type of parent who tells the detention center to "keep 'em". (I actually had parents who did this.) I also had parents who swore their kids had the rent money in their pocket when they were arrested for selling drugs.

We will be meeting with our attorney either Monday or Wednesday of next week, so I will ask about a polygraph at that time.

Next Thursday, we meet with the investigator for the probation department. It's a very important meeting, because the investigator will recommend one of three things based on the interviews with our son and us. He basically has three choices. 1) 6-month probation without having to admit guilt. 2) 1-year probation, my son has to admit he's guilty. 3) No probation and the case goes to trial. Obviously, we're hoping for #1. #2 leaves a bad taste in my mouth, since I would essentially have to tell my son he has to admit to something he's already insisted to everyone that he did not do (and I believe him) just to avoid going to trial. Neither our attorney or the public defender think #3 is all that likely, based on the lack of any real evidence and the fact that my son has no prior record. I would love the case dismissed altogether, of course, but only the judge could do that. It isn't within the investigator's jurisdiction to make that recommendation. At least, from what I understand so far. We should know more after Thursday.

Right now, my son is at youth conference for our church. We got permission from the person in charge of his home supervision so that he could go. I'm so happy he's getting a chance to get out of the house and be with some of his friends and have a little fun.

We're getting started on the independent study, so he won't fall behind in school. I really hope he gets to walk at his graduation ceremony at the very least.

His grandparents want to be present at our next court hearing in May. Does anyone know if extended family are allowed to attend? I'm going to ask the attorney when we have our meeting next week, but just wondering if anyone else knows the answer to this question sooner.

Usually juvenile cases are closed hearings and no one is allowed in except the immediate family members. They may allow grandparents to attend especially if they have been active in his life. It would definitely look good for the whole family to show up in support.

The investigator is doing the prosecutor's homework for them and the prosecutor will more than likely give their recommendation a lot of weight.

From everything you've described, I think your son will be okay. Even if #2 happens, he's a juvenile and his record will be sealed-- unles for some strange reason they decide to try him as an adult. Based on what you've said however, I really don't see that happening.

I know it's scary Writer, but I really believe this is going to be okay. Hard lesson learned for your son but one I'll bet he'll never forget.

(((Writer)))

((writer))

Just found out that the money my son's biological sperm donor was supposed to send to the attorney hasn't arrived yet. Big surprise. So, we won't be meeting with the lawyer tonight for sure. If the money doesn't get there in two days, we may very well have to go to the interview with the investigator on Thursday without an attorney. I've left messages with his bio dad, but he isn't answering his phone. I'm considering pawning our wedding rings to come up with the money. That would probably get us the retainer at least, but the rest of the $5000 to $10000 would be due in 3 months. I would have to rob a bank and land myself in jail to come up with that kind of cash.

Is just a little bit of good news really too much to ask for?

If the girl sent naked pictures of herself and then erased them, unless she wiped her hard drive clean then the files are still there. What happens is the PC just erases the pointer to the file. Why not ask the lawyer if they could subpoena her computer and have a forensic computer person recover the files?

We would like to do that, just as soon as we manage to actually get a lawyer.

It's going to take a miracle.

I just wanted to tell you I am thinking of you and your family today, Writer1.

Thinking of you, too, Writer!

Confirmed with my son's bio dad that he never sent the money. He kept reassuring me that he would have it before Thursday, but it isn't going to happen. Will be calling pawn shops today to see how much we can get for our wedding rings. My H will probably have to cash out his extremely small 401K plan and pay a huge penalty. It'll screw us next year at tax time and we'll probably owe the IRS money we almost certainly won't be able to pay. Our tax returns are the only thing that have saved us in the past few years. Bankruptcy is almost a certainty at this point. Losing our house is a probability. We couldn't even afford our property taxes this year, so we didn't pay them. I guess the house would have went anyway eventually. Once the house goes, my H and DS 15 will likely end up living with my MIL and the baby and I (and DS 17 if he's not in jail) will end up sleeping in my mother's extremely dirty living room until we can figure something else out. My MIL has the room to take us all in, but I know she won't do it. She's made that pretty clear in the past.

My life officially sucks! Sorry to vent in such a negative way, but really, it just feels like it's all over and there's no use even trying to fight anymore. What's the point?

I'm so so sorry.

I too am so, so sorry. Stupid teenage girls have no idea how their little schemes can so deeply cause harm to so many people.

I'm sorry, writer.

All this has not happened yet, so there's a chance that it might not. Please don't despair.

From what this stupid teenage girl said to my son and some mutual friends, it seems it was pretty much her intent to cause our family as much harm as possible, so I think she knows exactly what she's doing.

Our finances have been hideous for awhile now. This just seems likely to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Maybe a huge lottery win would save us, but since we don't play the lottery, that doesn't seem likely.

How does one overcome the urge to crawl in a deep hole and never come out?

I hope they put this stupid teenage girl up on the stand and crush her.

That probably wasn't productive. But I'm angry for you Writer.

I'm guessing this girl's parents are religeous? How do they think outright lying to destroy a young man will sit with THEIR god?
So sorry you have to go through this.

(((writer))) I rarely read this board and didn't realize life has gotten even harder for you. I will be praying about this for you, hon.

Thanks Faith.

My H just created a thread on the forum yesterday. Sort of threw me for a loop, since I haven't even really been able to get him to read on here before, let alone post anything.

He is TWOPENNIES and the topic of his thread is titled: Financially responsible if no adoption?

I'm sort of taken aback by the fact that he is considering divorce (on paper only, but still...) as a way to protect our family's finances from this mess we are in. The financial aspect of all of this didn't occur to me until we met with the probation officer yesterday. One of the papers we had to sign indicated that part of my son's probation (if he ends up getting probation) could include paying the "victim's" medical and legal expenses relating to the case. We can't even pay our own expenses. No savings, huge credit card debt, outrageous student loans, an upside down mortgage, and now this? I'm beginning to feel a bit like Job.

So, how do I handle this talk of getting a legal D and putting everything (house, credit cards, and itty bitty checking account) into my H's name? It feels a little like getting thrown under the bus, from my perspective. I wouldn't even be able to go to the store by myself unless he gave me some cash. And if something ever happened to him, God forbid, I would pretty much be homeless and penniless, unable to access any of "his" money.

Ugh. Ugh. UGH!!!

We have that too. You could put everything in his name, then if he died, have a will giving it all to you.

It can be protective. And just think, it is a nice offer of "amends" (i forget the word) to make up for what you did to him.

Asset protection is very important. This could benefit you both.

Bubbles: What I did to him? The current situation has nothing at all to do with anything that either one of us did. This is about our son.

Writer, I will probably be rebuked for this, but this makes me nervous. I don't know why. If you do decide to get a divorce on paper, it should not be out of some affair-related guilt. Because you are right; they are not related. Don't do what I did. For a long long time I based every decision on some idea that since I had an affair I couldn't have an opnion. WRONG.

For me, right now I wouldn't want to D on paper because I am not sure H would want to un-D. But y'all may not be like that.

I am just so sorry that all this has happened.

You should be ashamed, Bubbles to kick her when she is down.

Do you feel good doing that?

I would do everything possible to avoid divorcing, even on paper. My SIL did this to avoid financial repercussions from her H being sued by his former business partner. They did it to protect their personal assets but guess what? He had an affair and there was nothing should could do because they were already D'd.

I don't think divorce is necessary at all in your case.

I put another legal post on your husband's thread.

Mr. W

Thanks Mr. Wondering. I read over the info you posted on my H's thread, and that's very reassuring. $1000 isn't pocket change for us, but it's certainly nowhere near the amount I was fearing. Maybe I've been watching too many courtroom dramas, where the awards always seem to be in the six-figure + range.

I also want to encourage you to fight this.

Get that Private Lie Detector Test.

If you son passes then FIGHT IT.

As someone said on your husband's thread. The prosecutor doesn't have your best interests at heart and will STRONGLY encourage a plea/settlement. He'll promise that it pretty much means NOTHING.

However...such plea WILL follow your son around for life. He'll never be able to work for a government agency that includes a background check as he'll be asked about any and all crimes he's ever even been charged with and the result of such charges. That means he can't be a cop, a teacher, a DEA agent...nothing. Even Law Schools require you to disclose your criminal record from birth as does the State Bar when you finally pass the Bar Exam...

and more and more things require background checks every year. Heck, just volunteering at my kids school or at the hospital requires one and even though it's supposedly sealed as a juvenile record...it's still essentially a lie for him to withhold the information when specifically asked.

Because he's a juvenile the negative consequences of fighting AND losing likely aren't so bad.

Hope you find a way to beat this wrap.

Mr. W

We're having loads of problems with our so-called legal representation. My son's bio father has quit returning our calls, so unless a lot of money falls out of the sky, hiring a private attorney is pretty much impossible. I've been trying to reach our PD since last week, but she doesn't answer or return our calls either. Other than a few minutes before our last hearing and one phone call, we haven't even had a chance to speak with her. She still hasn't even heard my son's side of the story. I have no idea how she's going to defend his case if she only knows what is in the police report. I asked if we can change PD's, but apparently that's not allowed. You just have to take what you get. To top it all off, the probation officer in charge of my son's home supervision isn't returning our calls either. My oldest son is staying with us and I'm trying to have him added as a supervisor so we can actually leave the house without having to take our son with us. I've left her multiple messages over the last several days to no avail.

I feel like there is literally no one on our side at all. We found out that the "victim" is now posting pictures of my son on the My Space page of the girl he was dating before his arrest. The picture supposedly shows my son kissing some girl while he was dating his girlfriend, basically his ex trying to convince his girlfriend that he was cheating on her. The clincher? My son doesn't even know who the girl is that he is supposedly kissing. The picture of him is old - he's wearing a hat in it that he hasn't even owned in ages. So the picture couldn't have been taken in the last few months, as his ex-girlfriend is claiming. And, since he doesn't even know who the girl is, it is obviously fake. My son sent the picture to several friends who do graphic design (my son has also taken 3 years of graphic design) and the consensus is that the photo is fake. I'm pretty sure the "victim" is violating the judges orders by posting fake pictures of my son on the internet. The judge specifically said that neither of them are to have any direct or indirect contact whatsoever while the case is still open. I can't do anything about it of course, since I can't get anyone to return my calls.

How do I get myself off of ignore and get some of these people to actually start doing their jobs? I am so frustrated.

Sorry...I don't know what to say or how to make it better. I don't know how public defenders work in Michigan let alone California.

As far as getting the ex-girlfriend to stop harassing your son...I say...let her harass away. The more you can document her vindictive actions the better because that's your whole defense anyway. Just be CERTAIN your son stays WAY above the fray. Neither he, nor his close friends, can be seen as trying to intimidate the "victim" or harassing her to recant. That will just give her ammunition if and when she testifies crying her heart out about all your son has supposedly done to her (the night he allegedly forced himself upon her and EVERYTHING thereafter.

Really...your son needs to be instructed that any type of manipulation on his part or his friends part WILL backfire on him. Let her do WHATEVER crazy thing she wants...be HAPPY when she does....just don't react (which is what she WANTS and NEEDS him to do). Hopefully, the less he reacts the crazier she will get.

Mr. Wondering

Ditto Mr. W on keeping your DS *AND* his friends above the fray... but DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT everything she does. Get date-stamped screenshots of things she sends to facebook, text messages, etc. and burn them to non-rewritable CD's to preserve the date stamps. If you have any techie friends, enlist their help in preserving documentation that will prove it is her, and when it happens. Even if your PD falls down on the job, you can present this info to the judge yourself.

I hate for you that this is happening, but keep your chin up and keep fighting for what's right!!

There is just a chance that your PD is stuck in Europe, unable to get out because of the airline crisis.

I cannot imagine why else she would just not be responding to you.

I'm sure she'll be in touch soon.

PS: I realise that my suggestion might sound far-fetched from where you are. It's just that, in the UK, half the country seems to be stuck abroad. My workplace is half-empty and so is my son's school. There are not enough teachers, so kids are being given a day off in rotation.

Silly Europeans...

Americans we just pee on Volcano's to put them out and carry on.

Smoke????....I don't see no stinking smoke.

Ash??? We've got more ash than any country on the planet and we ain't shutting down our skies for NOTHIN'.

I live in Southern California, where the motto is: Never trust any air you can't see, touch, and taste.

And yes, we have driven it home to our son that he is to have absolutely no contact with his ex. That's not too hard for him, since she seems to be the last person on earth he wants to have anything to do with. It is hard for him to just sit back and do nothing, but he understands that she is her own worst enemy. The only reason he knew about the picture at all was that his more recent girlfriend (they aren't currently dating, because of the situation) told him that the ex had posted the photo on her MySpace page. Obviously, the ex-girlfriend is tired of sitting around waiting while nothing much happens, so she's trying to stir up the pot a little. I hope she does a few more stupid things between now and the next court date. I just need a way to let the judge know what is going on. If we can't get together with the PD and give her all of this info, he may never know anything. Last time, court was very much do not speak unless spoken to, so if the judge doesn't ask, we won't have any opportunity to tell him anything. He made it very clear that if anyone spoke out of turn, they would be forcefully removed from the courtroom and fined and/or jailed. He's a real lovely person.

Update: Just spoke to the PD. She called while I was typing this. We're meeting on Thursday, the 29th to discuss everything. Yeah!

Hurrah! She's not stuck in a volcano!

It would be great if you had your own private Polygraph done by that meeting. I don't think you need to wait for the public defenders instruction to get it done...just do it. You are by far your own best advocates. Even if you were paying for your own attorney...nobody can represent you better than you.

It would be great if the PD would tell you to get it asap and who to go to as she may have a relationship with someone who will give you a better deal (someone she refers to often) or better yet...someone she knows the prosecutors office trusts such that the results will be trusted without having to endure ANOTHER polygraph issued ON THE RECORD by them. Do you have an email address for her??? [on the other hand...April 29, in terms of how long these things tend to drag out...is really not that far off. You can wait to discuss it with her then]

Again...your son can fail a private polygraph, but if he consents to a public polygraph the results likely can be used against him (you'll likely have to consent to such BEFORE taking the test). Never consent to a prosecutor's polygraph without KNOWING what the results will be aforefront.

Mr. Wondering

Hi Writer-
I agree with Mr. Wondering--Get that polygraph, no matter what you have to pawn to get the $$. It should only be a few hundred bucks, and I know the word "only" doesn't apply for you, but it's going to be worth it's weight in gold.
There's got to be some potential $$ somewhere, even if you have to ask relatives, the older kids, or sell something. Does DS have a car? If so, sell it. He won't need it if he goes to jail, and if this gets him off, he can always work toward a new one. Leave no stone unturned in the quest for money. And don't give up on DS's sperm donor either. File for back child support, seriously, before DS turns 18.

We have court tomorrow. Everything is a mess. The baby has been throwing up since Saturday night. I have no one to watch her, so I have to take her to court sick. We asked our youngest son to miss the first few periods of school tomorrow so he could watch her, and he absolutely refuses. He has ADHD and who knows what else and is verbally abusive on a regular basis to everyone in the house. If we ask him to do anything at all, he throws a fit and threatens to run away (he's actually done it numerous times in the past). He doesn't even go to class half the time when he does go to school. He has tardies/truancies every single day. He isn't passing anything. I really want him out of my house, but I have no choice but to put up with all of his crap for another 2 years until I can kick him out. He openly does drugs and brags about it and has been suspended for possession of marijuana recently.

So, we asked my MIL to come over and watch the baby. This is a woman who has baby sat our kids maybe twice in the entire 16 1/2 years I've been married to my H. Will she come over and babysit the sick baby? NO! Her reason? She's too upset about everything that's been going on with our son and the court battle and she just can't handle it. I'm not even flipping asking her to go to court. I'm just asking her to watch the baby so we don't have to bring her to court where she's bound to puke all over everyone the entire time we're there. UGH! UGH!!! UGH!!!!

Tonight, on the way to the store, the clutch went out in my H's car and we got stuck for 2 hours before the tow truck showed up. Both of my credit cards were refused when I tried to rent a car.

I've been trying to reach our public defender since last week and she doesn't return any phone calls. We called today about seeing if she could postpone the court date because of the baby's illness, but of course, she can't do that if she WON'T RETURN OUR PHONE CALLS!!!

I am sick and tired of waking up every morning wondering what's going to go wrong today. Nothing goes right. EVER! I am living in a nightmare of Murphy's Law.

I am so sick of my life!!!

Sorry, this was the only place I could go to rant. There isn't anyone I can talk to at all.

Wish I could help you more. Praying for your family writer.

((((((( hugs )))))))

Hey just a thought maybe the baby will puke on the ex GF in court tomorrow !!!!! lol
Hey it could happen I had a exocist baby who projectile vomited all the of the time !!!!!!!! Wasn't funny at the time but like making her feel guilty now that she's 22 & can pick on her about it.

You know that made you smile !!!!! Just admit it !!!!

I'm really worried about the baby. She really isn't keeping anything down. She hasn't eaten since Saturday, except for a little applesauce, which she threw up almost immediately. She isn't even keeping the pedialyte down. I was going to take her to the doctor today, but then she seemed to be feeling a little better. Not anymore. She doesn't want to do anything. She just rolls around on the floor and whines and moans. Most of the time, she just wants to sleep. How on earth am I going to get her up 3 hours earlier than usual tomorrow and drag her to court? She can barely sit up.

I'm so sorry, writer. I know it's around 5:30 there now, and I hope she is doing better. I am saying a prayer for all of you.

Court did not go well. My son can't go back to school and cannot even walk at his own graduation ceremony because the little b*@!ch wants to go and watch her friends graduate. We're also stuck with yet another month of home supervision even though my son turns 18 in 8 days and isn't even legally eligible for it anymore after that. Apparently, the judge doesn't know the law. DA is pushing for 2 years in prison and 4 years of probation, ending when my son is 24. His life will be ruined. I doubt he'll ever get a job and my H and I will have to support him until we die and then I have no idea what he'll do. Our PD doesn't listen to anything we say and seems to assume that my son is guilty.

We are hiring a private attorney. We are going to stop making our house payments to pay for it. We'll almost certainly lose the house, but there seems to be little other choice.

The baby has hand, foot, and mouth disease, which is highly contagious and will probably spread throughout our entire family. At least it's nothing serious, just 7-10 days of misery.

I am no longer speaking to my MIL, ever.

Am feeling very low. Murderous. Suicidal. What's the point even trying anymore? They always win. We always lose. They get everything. We get nothing. Guilty until proven innocent, but don't even bother trying, because once you walk into this building accused of something, you're already guilty and there's nothing you can do to change that. That, my friends, is what we refer to as justice in this wonderful country of ours.

(((( hugs ))))

What happened to "getting a polygraph" to prove your son did not force sex on her????

Either your son is guilty, and needs to be punished,,,OR, he is innocent and needs a polygraph and a good attorney. (Maybe if he is half guilty, he needs a good attorney to get out of it...)

Why blame the universe that he had sex with a 16 year old? It is his fault.

Which is it?

not nice Bubbles !!!!!

Bubbles: I'm not sure why I even bother with small-minded people like you, but if you would really like an answer, here it is:

My son wants to take a polygraph. He has asked to do it. The PD doesn't want him to, because she seems to be pretty much of the opinion that he's guilty. Hence the reason we are financially ruining our family and putting ourselves in jeopardy of losing our home by hiring a private attorney that we cannot afford. I wouldn't do that if I didn't believe 100% that my son is innocent.

Our family has been kicked enough for one day. Stay off my thread. I don't care to hear anything more that you have to say. You aren't remotely helpful to anyone on this forum, as far as I have been able to tell. You certainly aren't offering any helpful advice here, and your under-handed, immature jabs are not welcome.

My son wants to take a polygraph. He has asked to do it. The PD doesn't want him to, because she seems to be pretty much of the opinion that he's guilty

Can't you do it yourselves? Pay for one and do it?

Yes, we can. We would just like to do it while being represented by someone who believes in my son and supports us in the decision to do it.

I asked that so that others can help you. Thank you for your insults to me, I am sure that helped you let off some steam.

It did. I've been doing that a lot today, unfortunately. I apologize. I think I need to talk to someone, but not sure who. I'm having a very difficult time dealing with all of this. I'm trying to encourage my son not to give up hope, but it's difficult. He's really struggling with staying motivated.

I'm truly sorry and wish I'd never told you to try the public defender in the first place. Obviously, you got yourselves and idiot.

I also encourage you to click on Bubbles name and then click ignore.

It's not like you can or should walk into any old polygrapher and take a lie detector test. Looking one up in the yellowpages is RISKY. You need and want a referral from YOUR ATTORNEY so you get one that your attorney trusts.

Polygraphers are typically ex-cops. IF your son, by chance...FAILS the private test an untrustworthy polygrapher MAY leak the results to the DA's office. Not that they will or can ever use the private results...but you can be certain they won't be then offering any deals or breaks after getting tipped off that they appear to have a guilty one on their hands.

Get an attorney and THEN the polygraph.

Mr. W

Thanks Mr. Wondering. We've got a call into the attorney now. Hopefully we'll here from him tomorrow. I don't know a thing about choosing a good polygrapher, so I definitely need the guidance of an attorney.

The thing that bothers me the most about the PD is that she lied to us. She said our son definitely wouldn't be taken back into custody when we went to court today (turns out, that was actually a real possibility that thankfully didn't happen) and she told us that he wouldn't be eligible for home supervision any longer and that restriction would be lifted (it wasn't). When I asked her about those things after the hearing, she denied ever saying them. My H, son, and I all heard her. I don't think all three of us could have heard her wrong.

Right now, I'm hunkering down to spend a very long night with a very sick baby. I keep wondering if we got a complete diagnosis. From what I've read, foot, hand, and mouth doesn't seem that terrible, but our baby is miserable. She won't sit up or stand at all. She hasn't eaten since Saturday. She'll take little sips of juice now and then, and she'll nurse occasionally. Mostly, she either sleeps, or whines and moans constantly. I feel so bad for her and I just don't know what to do to make it better. And I am so angry at my MIL for refusing to come over and watch her this morning so we wouldn't have to take a sick baby to court. I ask almost nothing of this woman. And I don't think it has anything to do with the whole OC, that's not my REAL grandchild kind of thing. She was like this with all our other kids too (including biological grandchildren) and just about everything else we've ever asked her help with (of which there have been precious few, precisely because the answer is always no). Vent over.

Good night.

Please bring the child to the hospital. The diagnosis could be wrong. The baby could die. And thanks Mr Wonderin. You are a peach.

writer, my heart is hurting for you. I know that feeling - that's what the*&%#$&*^%(&*^% is the point feeling. I wish there was something I could do besides pray. But you said you have no one to talk to. If you want my email address, just let me know or let the mods know. I'm not an attorney or a therapist, but I can listen and sympathize and curse all those darn idiots with you. I'm good at cursing darn idiots.

I think you have gotten good advice from Mr. Wondering. Polygraphs have always scared me because I am so hyper/bipolar/weird. But they are pretty advanced now and are supposed to be accurate. That will give everybody concrete peace of mind, and you can hold it up to the world and say, "See! I TOLD YOU!"

Thanks Luri.

I can't even think right now. I don't eat well, I don't sleep well. I feel nervous and tremendously upset all of the time.

My son is a good, sweet-natured, funny, helpful kid. Out of all my kids, he has caused me the least amount of problems. He's never had any discipline issues at all. I keep obsessing over what 2 years in prison with hardened criminals will do to him. I feel like I'm going to lose my son.

Try to think positively. He's not there now. Maybe he won't be. If this isn't a picture of what angry, bitter, vengeance (which is what is motivating this girl) does to a person I don't know what is. I feel really sorry for people who are so angry or so lacking in people skills that they have to make others miserable.

(((Writer)))

Hon, do you still have my email addy? I am available also if you need a shoulder. I live in LA so it might be possible to meet up in person at some point.

Writer,

I just read part of your thread. I'm sorry about your son.

As far as polygraphists go, your state should have a professional association of some type.

I'm in FL, here is the Fl polygraph Association website that you can see as an example. (I don't know how to link.)

http://www.floridapolygraph.org/

If you look at the FL site under "Find a Polygraphist" you'll see a slot to click to Post-Conviction Sexual offender Testers. In my state, these professionals have gone through the Dept of Law enforcement certifications to to do examinations on people who have been accused and convicted of sex crimes (and are on probation or the FDLE offender's list). The test findings are used by the court and law enforcement.

Maybe your state has a similar association that will allow you to contact an examiner who is certified to test in situations like your son is in. If your state's dept of law enforcement has such certification for it's specialized examiners, you might want to consider having your son tested that way.

If you can't find that type of examiner, select someone with former law enforcement/polygraph experience. Former LEO's are more credible as witnesses to the court.

As far as an atty is concerned, you're going to want to a board certified bulldog in criminal law for your son. Please do all in your power to get the $$$ to retain that type of atty. PD's are known for plea bargaining...that's not what your son needs.

Not to be nosy...but it looks like your in CA....

here's the CA site link

http://www.californiapolygraph.com/members/roster.htm#The%20following%20CAPE

Thank you. Yes, I am in CA. I'll check it out.

One question for Mr. Wondering or other attorneys. My daughter has a friend whose father is a retired attorney, and he brought up a possible concern about the contract the attorney we intend to hire wants us to sign. Basically, it outlines his fees as $5000 if the case doesn't go to trial and $10,000 if it does. The concern is that such a contract may lead to the attorney trying to drag things out as long as possible, since that means more money for them. Or, this could just be standard practice? I don't really know. Does this seem like a typical contract when hiring an attorney in a criminal case. This attorney came highly recommended from a friend of mine who is an attorney, though she doesn't do criminal law. We've had several conversations with him and I am quite comfortable with him and the amount of help/advice he has offered thus far even when he wasn't being paid. I just want to make sure before we sign.

Sorry to hear the latest developments, Writer. After being away and looking back at your story with fresh eyes, it seems to me that your priorities should be, and in this order:
1. Making sure dear baby is not seriously ill;
2. Working on getting DS a fair trial.
Nothing else should be on the radar screen. Make NO OTHER PAYMENTS to anyone, mortgage, electric bill, etc., until you've handled those two young ones. You can always get another house, you can always get another car, liquidate everything you own if you have to. The only thing that matters is the health and welfare of those children in crisis.
And yes, special place in he11 for MIL. So there is NO ONE else in the community who can help? What about church members?

Writer, I know you are inactive, but there are probably Church resources you could still use. If you can, get in contact with your Bishop- if you don't know your's any Bishop will do, they're usually in the phone book. I know that fast offerings are typically used for food for families in need, maybe you could get in on that.

Also, as this is such a trying time you may want to consider getting a blessing for your family members from the bishop/ home teachers (I can't remember if your husband is a member too). When the walls are closing in around you sometimes all you can do is lean on the Lord.

(((Writer1))) I'm praying for you and your family.

Writer:

The PD costs you nothing, And that is what you seem to be getting.

However.

You can probably spend $500 to $600 to get the Poly done, and your probably going to have to do it with the $5k guy.

So save the $5k. Spend it on the Poly. Ask your PD for a recommendation. Ask the Attorney your talking to for a recommendation. Then get the Poly done. The CJ system moves slowly, but things when they are happening, happen fast. So get your Son to a Poly, and get it DONE.

Understand, we had a family friend that was disappointed in the PD. So he spent $10k on the attorney that would make sure he wasn't getting a raw deal, and a lazy PD. The prosecuter told him: "Glad you got the new guy, but nothing has changed about your status...." And it hasn't. This guy is MORE guilty than your son, but think about that for a minute.

And, it just might make better sense to spend $5k on an interventation for your 16 year old. A Poly may get you older son off. It might incriminate him. I hope it gets him off. But the 16yo is heading to a early grave, or a long prison term.

LG

I'm asking a criminal defense attorney friend of mine but I'm pretty sure...considering the seriousness of the charges and that you are in California where EVERYTHING is more expensive...I'd say this is the low end of the price range.

IMO, he's not REALLY more motivated to take the case further as usually lawyers are outcome driven...they like to WIN and prefer HAPPY CLIENTS that refer them business and pay their fees. Besides, it's not like going to trial is a $5,000 BONUS to him...trials are WORK. If anything he sets that extra trial rate to encourage his clients to settle because going to court is the hardest and most time consuming part of his job (as well as the most risky...legal malpractice, appeals of HIS mistakes and maybe being reponsible for messing up and contributing to the incarceration of an innocent person all weigh on these guys). Trust me...he's much rather take your $5,000...have a few meetings with the DA's office and resolve this whole thing quickly so he can free up time to golf and/or take on more clients. Closing files is a relief to these guys.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - Remember...you'll need to pay costs, including the private polygrapher

Writer I feel for you,

I believe that it would be better to live at the Y or a shelter than to see your son go to jail. If you you can get a REAL lawyer then do so ASAP.
As someone aaid b4 it might be that the PD is inept or somehow intimidated by the court. I wouldn't trust her.

Im sorry you are going through this. I pray the baby gets better.

Thanks everyone for the input.

Yes, I would rather be homeless than see my son go to jail. The PD is inept and isn't doing her job, so my only choice is to hire someone who will fight for my son. Financially, we're pretty bad off anyway so we don't have a whole lot to lose.

Mr. Wondering, that does make sense. And I would prefer not to go to trial too, but the way the PD was talking, settling without going to trial would almost certainly mean some amount of jail time for my son, and I'm obviously not happy about that.

The other day I was at the school and the principal's secretary came up and started talking to me, volunteering all sorts of information about the girl's family. Apparently, she's known the mother for over 20 years and she said that the entire family is crazy. I found out that the mother left her previous job because she claimed that someone was sexually harassing her in the workplace. So, it seems they have a history of filing these sorts of charges. I wasn't even the one who brought up the case, since I've been advised not to discuss it. She just started offering the information.

The only people who seem to think my kid is guilty are the ones who don't know him - the judge, our PD, the DA. Every person who actually knows him thinks this is all insane. It seems as though plenty of people who know the girl think she's entirely capable of lying about all of this.

My criminal attorney friend confirmed that that is not too bad a price considering the charges. It's the low end and he agreed with my reasoning. He likes turn-over with favorable outcomes but if the DA won't deal and your client is innocent...trial is really the only choice. Which often results in delays anyway from the DA's side as they put off trial so they can put more pressure on your son to plead. The PENDINGNESS of the case will just SUCK and they KNOW it. It's not like the Ex-girlfriend is going to be pressuring them immensely to prosecute the case though her parents might (because they believe their daughter to the same extent you believe your son). It's the DA that doesn't want to go to trial the most and without much evidence ....may make a substantially better offer at the last minute to avoid it.

It's all a game...that hopefully your attorney knows how to play AND win.

Sucks..

Mr. W

It does suck. I would like off of the Monopoly board now.

Tomorrow, I have a meeting with the school principal. I'm filing a complaint against the girl's father for making threatening phone calls to my son and stalking him around campus before the charges were filed. After yesterday in court, where he made some very obvious death-threat gestures in the general direction of my entire family, I do not feel that my son who still goes to that school is safe. When that man stared at me as I was walking out of that courtroom, I saw pure evil and hatred in his eyes. It sent a cold shiver down my spine. My son has been warning me for awhile now that he fully believes her family will retaliate against us outside of the courtroom. I finally believe him. I'm not going to sit around and wait for something bad to happen. I'm going to ask the attorney for info about restraining orders as well. I wish there was some sort of order we could get to keep this girl from posting immature, moronic, and false allegations against my son on the internet as well. So far, it seems as though she's being allowed to say anything and everything she wants, and if my son even blinks the wrong way, he goes back into custody.

I really hate this country. Sorry to any of you who may be patriotic. I used to think we lived in the best country on earth too. I don't think I'll ever feel that way again.

I hope you can provide documentation and sworn testimony of thier behavior. If so then get a restraining order. Also if they have records get them in front of your new Atty and or judge.

The restraining order is important here. You need to protect yourselves from these sleazes.

When its all over I would move to another county, state whatever writer if you think for any reason these ppl might retaliate. .

Yes this country is in bad shape. Mr Wondering is right, whats happening to your son is part of the game. SPare no expense and get that lawyer he will be better than the wimpy, powerless and intimidated PD who is probably in the game to make friends. Really don't know.

I don't want you to have any mercy for that family and be sure they don't have any for you.

Prayers for you guys. I hope you are digging up dirt about theses people that yuu can prove because judging from what you have told me about this family , the drug abuse, and so on, The old GF will lie and they will swear to it. Your only hope is that you sway the judge with a good lawyer and so much information that they will fear repercussions larger than letting your son off would bring

I am so frustrated right now. The other side of this is, my son is already turning into a different person because of this. He's angry all the time. He yells and flies off the handle every time we try to talk to him about any of this. He doesn't want to do his school work anymore because he doesn't see the point in getting a diploma if he's just going to prison anyway. This isn't my son. I'm tired of getting yelled at. I'm tired of getting blamed because he's missing out on everything and cooped up in the house all of the time and unable to see his friends.

I didn't have sex with his girlfriend. I didn't mouth off and say things I shouldn't have said. I didn't do any of this!

Every minute of every day of my life is filled with conflict. I want to quit. I want out of this entire thing. I cannot handle anymore yelling and screaming. I cannot remember the last happy moment that I had.

I AM DONE!

writer1...I don't know the whole story, so I'm sorry about posting this if it's a repeat suggestion, but have you looked into a defamation of character suit against her?

No need to explain again if it's already been discussed.

So sorry to hear that Writer

He is just afraid. Nobody can blame him. What is H doing about this? Do you have counsel for your son as in spiritual/therapist? If your Son can reach out to someone outside the family right now it would be good for him. He needs to accept that this has happened and that reacting will just make it worse

Prayers

I think someone outside our family for him to talk to is a good idea. My H tries, but he isn't getting very far with him either. I think I'll ask our bishop for a suggestion, or maybe he can talk to him himself. I know he's afraid and he has a lot of pent-up anger and no real way to let it out. His 18th birthday is next week, and he isn't allowed to see any of his friends or go anywhere without us. I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. It's frustrating for all of us. I know we need some help dealing with this. We had an appointment with the bishop set up for tonight, but we couldn't go because the baby is still too sick. I think she's on the mend, finally. She's kept down some applesauce today, which is a huge improvement.

We can't really do anything about defamation of character until this is all over. If my son is found innocent, that might be a possibility. That would require a full-blown trial though, and even the mere thought of having to go through something like that terrifies me to death.

Glad to hear the baby is better. I know it seems like the end of the world to your son, but if he can stay out of jail, this will all be a distant memory in a few years. I would get him into counseling.
I can understand how it would shake your faith in this country and if it were me, it would shake my faith in God as well. I just can't understand how these kind of things happen to good people.

Ima: My faith in God has been on shaky ground for some time now. It's something I'm working on.

My fear is that this seems likely to end in some way that will negatively affect my son's ability to get a job for the rest of his life. If he has something permanent of this nature on his record, he'll probably never work even if he doesn't go to jail. It's difficult enough to get a job without a criminal record nowadays, probably impossible with one. That makes it difficult for me to motivate him as far as school is concerned.

Well, he was charged while a minor--even if he's 18 when the disposition takes place, maybe get it sealed?

It's good that you can admit to yourself and us that this is a FEAR. And fears (and other feelings) are not FACTS.

There is so much you don't know about your son's future, regardless of how this all ends up. Today has enough of it's own problems, without adding fears about future ones. There are so many people out in the world who have truly screwed up big time, were not innicent one iota, and who found redemption and a future. Surely, your son, who is innocent, will also have hope too.

My heart aches for you and your family.

Something you might want to remind yoru son is that no one knows what his future holds. He has only limited control over the future even in the best of circumstances, even if this whole horrid thing had never happened. He has very little control over anythign right now. And it seems that the one thing he DOES have control over is his schoolwork. I know for me when I am feeling powerless, I tend to try to control other areas of my life through neglect, but I only end up harming myself. It's taken me many years to learn that by controlling myself in positive ways, I am doing myself a huge favor. If he could learn that at his young age, surely there is reason to hope that his future will be bright.

I hope this is coming out right. If it strikes a raw nerve, I apologize. I never know how to say stuff sometimes. ((((writer))))

Many employment applications ask, "Have you ever been charged with a felony offence." In which case, even if the record is sealed, one would still have to answer about charges filed as a minor.

However, if his record is expunged, then it is as if it never happend, and he could answer "no" to that question and legally be OK.

At least, that is my understanding. I have a neighbor who is a prosecutor, and has also been a PD, and was picking his brain about this to see if there was anything I could add. But there isn't. It's been covered pretty well.

We'll be meeting with the new attorney next week, so I should be able to ask some of these questions and get more detailed information then. I think the PD mentioned something about the possibility of having his record expunged, but I'm imagining if he gets a 2-year prison sentence and 4 years of parole, that's something that is going to show up on a permanent record and have to be listed on an employment application, which in all likelihood will mean that my son will be unemployable for life.

So, for a more practical problem, since so much of this is out of my control at the moment. This home supervision thing is getting very tough. It's driving my son nuts, of course, but it's also taking a toll on other people. In the past month, I doubt my husband and I have had 15 hours total of UA time, let alone 15 hours a week. We literally never get to go anywhere without our son unless we can find someone to stay with him. All of our family are at least 1 1/2 hours away, so they can't help much. My older son is staying with us (for free and eating our food), but he's working now, and even when he's not working, he doesn't want to help out much. When I ask him if he can stay with Ryan and the baby for an evening so my H and I can have a date night or something, he either doesn't answer, or is vague with his answer, so I never know. He comes and goes from the house and I never have any idea where he'll be or when he'll be back. I know he's used to being on his own and not answering to anyone and this is hard on him, but we could really use a little help and support here. I'm not asking for much. Just a couple hours a week.

It was okay when the home supervision was only supposed to last for a month, but now I really have no idea when this will end. My friend who is a lawyer said that if this goes to trial, it could drag on for 1-2 years, and since the judge already stated that our choices were home supervision or back to juvenile hall, it is feasible that he could be under home supervision until he's 19 or 20. He's already going crazy with it after a month. I don't think any of us could survive years of this.

What can we do? My M wasn't on the sturdiest ground before all of this, and I'm very afraid that this could be the proverbial nail in the coffin. I don't want that to happen, but it's very difficult for my H and I to have any sort of relationship when every minute we spend together has to take place in the company of a baby and several teenagers. I know this shouldn't be my main concern right now, but it is a concern. As much as we have to deal with all of this, we have to deal with the rest of life too. We can't just put everything else on hold indefinitely.

I'm sorry, writer. I thihnk you should draw up a contract with your older S, wherein so many hours of lawful supervision is his "rent." I think you are wise to consider your M even in all this. H and I put our M "on hold" for a time ealier in our M, and it was NOT a good thing.

It's just annoying to me that there are people out there doing awful things and being given the benefit of the doubt all over the place, while a teenage boy is already being "imprisoned." Sometimes life makes no sense. I wish I could do something for you.

"Son, the only way we'll be able to continue to provide you with food and lodging is if you can contribute to the family upkeep by staying with Ryan and the baby for X hours a week. If you can't do that, you're going to have to find somewhere else to live."

In the mean time, calculate how much having Older Son live with you is costing. That's how much you will have to apply toward paying another adult to stay in the house while you and your husband go out. But don't share that information with Older Son. He's likely to use it as a negotiating point or to manipulate you. Also don't make your effort to work on your marriage part of the conversation with Older Son. As I understand it, he's your son but not your husband's? In which case, he probably feels under no obligation to help you out for the sake of the marriage. In other words, don't even bother trying to appeal to his sense of family or common decency. Just cold hard consequences: if you can't do this, you can't stay here.

Good ideas. We do need to talk to him about this and set up an arrangement that will work for everyone. Originally, he was only supposed to stay here for a few weeks and then he was going back to Utah to work. He changed his mind and decided to look for work here and found a job. I know he wants to find his own place as soon as possible, but while he's here he is going to have to contribute. His status isn't so much "guest" anymore, which is how I saw it in the beginning, but more "resident" and residents have different expectations than guests. I guess it's time we made that a little more clear.

And no, he isn't my H's bio son, but he was only 4 years old when we married, so my H pretty much raised him. His bio dad wasn't really in the picture (he would call once or twice a year, but that's about it). Really, all of the kids seem like "ours" to both of us, since we raised all of them together under one roof. There was no visitation from the other bio parents or child support, or anything like that.

Still, our son providing a service to us and contributing around the house in exchange for a free place to live and food to eat doesn't strike me as unreasonable. He may feel differently about that, but if he doesn't like the rules, he's free to find another place to live anytime.

OK, I didn't have that part quite right. It sounds like he'd have more interest in the health of your marriage than he might if your husband had come into his life when he was 13 or so. But he still may not be in a place to appreciate the efforts you and your H need to make to build your marriage, so consider carefully whether you include that in the conversation.

If the record was sealed Think there is no way they can find out unless they were a high security type job employer. Granted, Son might have to settle for something less than what he had planned for in youth but I would like to beleive he would work whereevr he could if he had a chance.

This to me speaks of the scripture, "Be ye as wise as serpents, but as gentle as doves". I wouldn't be attempting to explain this situation to the average mid-grade job manager and expecting anything but rejection. I would tell them whatever to get a job and not think twice about it because my willingness to work for a living would outweigh my desire for absolution from the general public. This is something your Son will have to proess Writer as he learns to live with these consequences.

I am sure that in time your Son will see that he has learned a valuable lesson in life from the scummy XGF, her family, and a court system that trys to deal with truth but can only use proven evidence to protect the innocent but is flawed. Its people, of course its flawed. It can't know the complete truth of what happened or what your Sons intentions were/are. It attempts to make the consequences so severe that not only will it deter him from any furthur involvement it will scare anyone else who hears about it. . But the system is not allseeing or have allknowledge. That is smething he will have to trust God for
Hang in there day by day and encourage son to get counsel.

I would ask older son to contribute to the family as explained by the other posters also.
In my prayers Writer

I'm thinking it might be a good idea for me to speak to a counselor. We have an appointment with our bishop on Wednesday and I'm going to ask him about it then. Our church offers family and marital counseling with licensed therapists, and since our medical insurance doesn't cover counseling (unless there is a medically diagnosable condition) that might be the best way to go. I don't feel like I'm dealing with any of this well. The anxiety, loss of sleep, and loss of appetite are starting to take a toll. I've been sick all day. Don't know if it's what the baby had or just stress.

We went to church today (before I got sick). Other than once to listen to my daughter give a talk in sacrament last year, it's the first time I've been in almost 3 years. It was awkward. I almost chickened out. I'm still not sure how I feel about the whole thing. I just knew I needed to do something this morning and I didn't know what else to do.

Writer,

So sorry to hear that things have not gone well.

I have a few things to offer.

1. I am in LA county, you in San Diego? The polygrapher I used was a compassionate female former cop. $500. Glendale or Burbank.

2. Edited-- the offer still stands but now that you've seen the info I want to take it off the public board.

Let me know if you want to pursue. I don't check this forum hardly ever, so maybe a shout out over on recovery would be best. Hugs to you.

So, tomorrow is my son's 18th birthday, and I'm not sure what to do. He isn't allowed to see friends, and since he's been out of contact with all of his friends for so long, and so many nasty rumors have been circulating around school for months now (all started by one person) I think he's starting to feel like he doesn't have any friends anymore and that everyone has turned against him or forgotten him. He has been very isolated, and that is a difficult thing for a young, social person.

So, how do we handle this day? I want to do something for him, but I don't know what. No one here has been in a very celebratory mood here lately, so we haven't planned anything. There isn't much money, so whatever we do will have to be fairly cheap. Any ideas how to handle this?

Also, looking for ideas on how to get through June 3, which would have been his graduation day. That's going to be a hard one for everyone.

Can he get emails from his friends? Maybe they could send him encouraging b'day emails?

He must really be a wonderful guy, by the way. Most wonderful people were born in May

Let me take a stab in the dark here Luri, but by some chance, is your birthday in May?

Well, I mean, if you're gonna just badger me (chocolate), I guess I'll tell you it's Saturday (pedicure), and that I'll be 42 (dinner). But I don't want anyone making a fuss (giant letters at the top of the web site).

Happy early birthday Luri!

How are YOU doing today?

Better than yesterday. I'm still sick, but I think I'm on the mend. I'm still not able to eat anything, but I've kept down a little Sprite, so that's something. I hate being sick.

My son wants to go to Magic Mountain for his birthday, so we're looking into that for this Saturday maybe. My H gets discount tickets through his work, and compared to other amusement parks in So-Cal, that one is pretty cheap. I will be hanging out with the baby all day in Thomas World and Bugs Bunny Land.

Go and have some fun at the theme park! That sounds like a much-needed respite during this whole thing. Still hoping the karma bus rolls over that young tramp.

This Saturday coming up(Forgetful)

Aw, thank you SSO

Writer, you can have one of my balloons! How are you???

Thank you for the balloon.

When it rains it pours. My mother fell yesterday and broke her ankle in 2 places. She's been stuck on the couch ever since she got home. She can't even get up to go to the bathroom. She lives with my 88-year old grandmother who is in a wheelchair and my aunt and uncle, both in their 60's, and none of them can get her off the couch either. She's an hour and a half away and called this morning asking me for help, but my van is making all sorts of weird noises and I'm afraid to drive it that far. Heck, I'm afraid to drive it down the block. I was told 6 months ago that it needed $5000 worth of work if we wanted to keep it running, but we couldn't afford it, so we never made the repairs.

UGH!

I would not recommend anyone stand too close to me in a thunderstorm.

Sorry for the latest news, Writer.
I can't remember, but has your mom been much help as far as coming over to help you with DS?
I'm asking because it seems like everyone in your life is a "taker" and you are a "giver." I mean, when things were critical on court day, no one stepped up.
When you asked older son who was sponging off you to help out, he didn't step up.
Is this commonplace in your life? Maybe it's time to stop spreading yourself so thin and let others look out for themselves. If older son won't help out, he can go live with your mom and help her. If mom wasn't much help to you, then she can hire a respite nurse to come around the house.
I'm sorry this keeps happening to you.

My mom did come to court with us, but she can't really watch the baby. She has very bad arthritis in both knees and has difficulty walking. The baby was sick and having to be carried everywhere and my mother can't carry the baby anymore. Her knees, combined with the broken ankle, are compounding her problems right now.

Yes, my oldest DS certainly could step-up and help out more. He's been living on his own for the past year, so he's just not used to answering to anyone. It's probably more work for me having him home. This morning, he forgot to close the baby gate at the top of the stairs and the baby was standing right there about ready to go down (which she doesn't know how to do) when I realized the gate was open. It about gave me a heart attack, since our stairs aren't even carpeted.

Last night, I finally realized that I've been spending far too much of my life trying to "save" everyone. I'm trying to save DS 18 from the mistakes he made that have put us in this legal situation. Even though I know he isn't a rapist, the fact is, he was the one who decided to have sex with this crazy girl and then hide everything from us when she started threatening him with all of this. I'm trying to save DS 15 from a multitude of poor choices including smoking marijuana and chronically ditching school. I'm trying to save my mother from years of neglecting her health and failing to control her diabetes. I realize I don't have control over anyone else's decisions. I guess I just don't know how to turn my back on any of these people that I love and let them suffer their own consequences.

It's hard, especially with my kids, because their actions have consequences for me as well. My DS 15 has been issued 3 "tickets" in the past year - for possession of tobacco on a school campus, possession of marijuana on a school campus, and truancy. All of those tickets have been written to me and my H, since he's a minor and we're the parents. All of his problems occur at school. I tried to have him placed in an independent study/home schooling program so I wouldn't have to send him to the school anymore, and they turned down my request because his grades and attendance were too poor to qualify! WTF? He gets in all kinds of trouble at school, but I am legally forced to continue sending him there, and then when he gets in trouble again, they punish me.

My life is insane. Really, it is. Over the past few weeks, I have contemplated just taking the baby and walking away from all of this more times than I can count. Some days, I just don't know how much more of this I will be able to put up with.

Okay, I have a question. What do you do with an out of control teenager?

My DS 15 is completely out of control. He freely admits to using drugs at school on a regular basis. He won't listen to anything we say. If we tell him he can't go somewhere, he just leaves anyway. If we try to ground him or take away privileges, he simply refuses to comply. If we try to take away his stereo or phone, he barricades himself in his room and refuses to give them to us. If my H tries to force his way into the room to take things away, my son gets physical. He has pushed my H and shoved him down on the bed. They're about the same size, but my son is much younger and stronger. If I tell him to get off the computer (in the living room) he just sits there and continues to do whatever he wants. I'm afraid to turn off the computer because he is much bigger than I am. He has absolutely no respect for anyone, in our house or out. He has been suspended from school for fighting, drugs, smoking, truancy. None of these offenses have apparently been bad enough for them to put him in juvenile hall. I specifically asked when he was arrested for possession of marijuana and was told by the arresting officer that they wouldn't take him into custody for that.

I need some immediate help here. I do not feel safe in my own home and I don't know what to do. I've been told by law enforcement that I can't legally kick him out of the home because he is still a minor. But I can't keep living like this either. I feel like a prisoner hiding out in my bedroom with the baby trying to avoid him.

Does anyone with any legal expertise know what options are open to us? I don't think I can do this for 2+ more years.

I'm so sorry, writer. Yes, it does sound like there's a nasty pattern going on in your life. At least you are now taking a step back and realizing it.
Re: the DS15 (does D now stand for delinquent?-just kidding). Is there a "tough love" kind of group for troubled youth in your area? I know you said it's not too urban where you are, but maybe there is some kind of program like a "scared straight?"
I haven't dealt with the troubled teen years yet, but from what I see, it's all about your peer group. Sounds like DS15 is getting validated by his peers. Obviously, they have to go--but he needs to make that choice. Those programs are actually pretty successful, if you can find a good one.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

What does your son want to do when he graduates? Does he have any particular area that he's more interested in than others?

How about getting him involved in volunteering or getting him hooked up with a trusted mentor in the area that interests him?

Could be there is just too much chaos going on at home for him right now and he needs a healthy outlet.

Right now, DS 15 is not on track to graduate, ever. He is supposed to be a sophomore, but because of his credits, he is still technically a freshman. And this year, he's only passing 2 of his classes. He'll never graduate from high school the way things are going now. We are looking into doing some sort of home schooling or independent study with him next year, but frankly, I'm very apprehensive about it. He has no respect for me (or any type of authority for that matter) and if he won't listen to me, I don't know how I can teach him.

We've tried looking into some residential programs, but they all cost $2000 - $5000 a month. Who in the world can afford something like that? It's simply impossible for us. I have a call in to the director of student services at our school district. Our bishop referred me to him. He may have some information about other programs that don't cost as much, but the way things are for us right now financially, it would pretty much have to be free for us to afford it.

I don't think DS15's problems have anything to do with the current situation with our older son, because we've always had problems with DS15. He's had huge behavior issues since he was 2, when he started getting sent home from preschool because they couldn't handle him. It's been downhill ever since. He was diagnosed with ADHD and has been on a number of medications over the years. Now, he refuses to take medication, and they never helped much anyway. I honestly think he has more than just ADHD, but I don't know how to get a proper diagnosis. He isn't exactly open to seeing a psychiatrist, and since he's 6' tall and I'm not, it's pretty difficult to get him to do anything he doesn't want to do.

Where we live is a huge issue. It's all illegal immigrants and gangs around here, lots of meth labs, lots of pot farms. I recently found out CA's Inland Empire is considered the meth capital of the US. Lovely. Troubled teens seem to be the rule here rather than the exception. Whenever I go to the school for help, I'm pretty much told to take a number and get in line since they have so many problem kids to deal with that are far worse than mine. Really! That is so helpful.

I'm actually hoping the bank does take our house. I've been trying to get out of this place for 9 years and nothing else has worked.

DS18 has gone out to stay with my mom for a couple of days to help her out. It takes at least 2 people just to get her standing up now. I don't know what we're going to do with that. My mom can't stay with us since all of my house (living room, kitchen, etc.) is upstairs except for our master bedroom and bathroom. I can't stay with her because there just isn't room. She lives with my aunt and uncle (who won't help her at all - long story) and my grandmother in a very tiny and unsanitary house that isn't at all safe for the baby. I think she's going to need long term care, as will my grandmother, but I don't know what our options are. They live off my grandmother's social security. My mom can't work now, and even before the accident, most of her earnings went toward her health insurance. I know they can't afford to have someone come in and help out.

Does anyone have some Calgon I can borrow?

Check United Way and your relatives' insurances to see what is covered. Make sure their insurance doesn't cover at-home care of some type.

I would then visit area nursing homes. Ask people in your social circle who have family in nursing homes and get their opinions. Google area nursing homes and educate yourself.

Some skilled nursing facilities (otherwise known as SNFs) also allow intermediary/ambulatory patients. This might be a nice option if there is one available, because an SNF will provide therapies after, say, a hip fracture or heart attack and wouldn't require a transfer to another type of home after the hospital discharge.

If your relatives who need nursing care need to be admitted under medical assistance, I would call the board of aging for the county they live in to get details and direction.

Also, the human services/social worker at the nursing homes should be able to give you details on what is required for admission. Sometimes there is a waiting list. Sometimes medical assistance patients are last on the list where privately paying or insured patients take precedence.

An alternative is to admit her into a county run home and transfer her when a bed becomes available at a nicer place. I'd avoid that if you can and shoot for a clean SNF in compliance with the state.

writer,

Have you tried this for you DS15?

Hotlines for Troubled Teens

I admit I didn't check out all the links but maybe something there might lead to a possible solution.

I am sorry that your family is in such dire straits writer. I have no calgon, just some tough-love measures. Your description of your 15 year old is chilling. It seems that you are living in fear of your son's potential violence. You are going to have to face that fear, and deal with it head-on, rather than give in to it as you have been doing.

If, for example, you told him to get off the computer, and he wouldn't, I would simply pull the plug. Same goes for when he leaves the house without permission. If he assaults you or your H, I would call the police. An assault charge will land him in juvenile hall - or better yet, an early intervention program.

When he turns 16, given his abysmal performance in school, I would tell him that it's time to get a job and go for his GED. Perhaps he is the type who would do better working than being in school. If you are giving him money, cell phone or a car I would stop that now. And he can't buy drugs without money.

I know that these measures may seem radical, but what you're describing is a situation that is only going to get worse. You don't need worse.

Take care.

pk

Writer - patients who are admitted into nursing homes under medical assistance generally:

1) Are allowed an irrevocable burial fund to be set up prior to admission. Generally, these funds have no ceiling but are not able to be touched until after the death. Check with the board of aging on this - ask what is allowed in your state for this. Ask about life insurances policies. They may not allow both.

2) The house will probably have to be sold unless someone is living in it 6 months out of the year. (Again...check with the board of aging on the rules in your state) Not sure how they look at vehicles or furnishings or other assets.

3) When a patient is admitted into a nursing home uncovered by insurances and with just a social security and/or pension as their income and no other saved money, a portion of the check is set aside for their extraneous toiletries or other small things every month, such as a special toothpaste or chocolates. The nursing home generally can take charge of that and hold that in an account for her. You usually can provide receipts of these items when you visit to get reimbursed. (Check with the nursing home)

4) The rest of the check goes towards their care, and the state will then provide a supplement to help the nursing home with the expenses. Then I believe once a year, the nursing home will submit a cost report to the state for a lump sum of all the cumulative MA losses for all the MA patients, and they'll get a portion of that loss back. The rest is written off.

5) You can legally become the responsible party for your grandmother's account and thus would be the only person capable of withdrawing from her personal account when you buy her little things. Also, you can arrange to have the social security check mailed directly to the nursing home where an office worker can take it to her to be signed or (X'd) and witnessed. If she is unable to sign it, it can be made out so that the nursing home can just endorse it and deposit it towards her care.

Note to you: If your relative is able to sign it, let her. This helps maintain some sense of independence and control and pride in helping to pay for her own care.

Solee: Here is our situation as far as the nursing home options go. My grandmother owns a house that is largely paid off (I think she owes about $30,000). The house is worth around $300,000 - $400,000 (not sure of the exact amount, considering the current state of the housing market, but she has quite a bit of equity). My mother, aunt, and uncle all live in the house with my grandmother. When my grandmother had her stroke, they looked into the possibility of having her put in a nursing home at that time. What they basically found out was that her social security/medicare would only kick in to pay for a nursing home if the house was sold and all of the money from the sale of the house was first used to pay her expenses.

My mother has no money, no retirement fund, and no property. My aunt and uncle are even worse, since they have none of these things either, and they have a huge amount of debt. All three of them are basically banking on inheriting my grandmother's house when she passes away, selling the property, dividing the assets equally between my aunt/uncle (they're married, uncle is my grandmother's son) and my mother, and retiring on that money. If they have to put my grandmother in a nursing home, they will lose the house, lose where they are all currently living, and lose their retirement money.

My H and I have been aware of the fact that there is going to be a huge battle when my grandmother passes away over that house. There has been squabbling over it for years now. My aunt and uncle hate my mother, and vice versa. They fight and argue all the time. My grandmother has a will, but I don't know the particulars of it. I just know it's going to get very ugly. I've done my best to stay out of this, but it hasn't been easy. I'm just a grandchild and I'm not in the will and I wouldn't want to be under the circumstances. That's way more headache than I care to endure right now. I've talked to my mother hundreds of times about my concerns regarding the situation and she doesn't want to listen. I have no authority here, so I don't know what else I can do.

As far as DS15 goes, we don't give him any money. He doesn't have a car or a cell phone (anymore). I don't know where he gets the drugs. He says his friends just give them to him. We have plans to call the police whenever he starts to get violent or make threats from now on. Ideally, we would like to find him some sort of program that might give him the help that he needs. Trying to find one we can afford is proving quite difficult.

Writer -

After her stroke, she might have qualified for skilled care with therapies and such. Under that diagnosis, from my memory, her insurances probably would have covered her for quite a while. Once the insurances ended, they could have brought her back home before she needed to be assessed for medical assistance.

Based on the fact that people are living in the house, they might not have had to sell it for her to qualify for medical assistance.

And I do believe you need to be co living in the house for a set period of time before the admission for this to all be valid and for it not to be deemed a ploy to outwit the MA system.

I suppose every state is different, writer, but from what you're telling me and basing it on the laws in my state from 20 years ago (long time ago, I know) there might have been a misunderstanding.

As far as admitting your mother, sounds like she would qualify for MA.

Generally when I was working in an SNF...if you broke a bone or had a stroke or heart attack, Medicare would cover you at that time for 100 days because you were going to need possibly intravenous and therapies. After that up to the 365th day, BC/BS would cover you. During that time of recuperation, your health was assessed regularly by your doctor. If he or she deemed that you no longer needed skilled care, you would have three choices:

Be discharged, go through the MA application process with your assets assessed to determine if you needed to liquidate and pay with those proceeds for a time until you qualified for MA, or if you were a veteran, the VA would pay for your stay instead of MA. Now...that's 20 years ago.

As far as your son...honestly I would consult a good attorney and talk to other parents with similar problems who have been through your local court system before I'd ever get the police involved in my child's problems.

Sounds to me like it's time to let the bank repo the house, and to get out of that godforsaken area and find a real job and live in an area with some hope for the future. Can your husband relocate or find employment elsewhere? It's not like you have to stick around so DS15 graduates or anything... And DS18 is done, so a fresh start might be what he needs.

It was our plan to move after DS18 graduated this year, but now I'm not sure what we're doing. Obviously, we can't go anywhere until this case is decided. If he gets some sort of probation or, God forbid, ends up in jail, we won't be able go very far for who knows how long.

Writer,

Do a google search for your county for "mental health court" and "juvenile mental health court."

Please tell me if you find anything. Sometimes you just need to know what rock to turn over.

If he gets probation, you should be able to relocate. The courts should look forward to getting both sons away from a toxic peer group situation. Make sure your lawyer fights for this.

Sorry, I was offline all weekend. Magic Mountain was fun. I let myself get talked into going on a few roller coasters, even though they're really not my thing. I'm more of a special effects, Universal Studios/Disneyland type of girl. But, my son had a good time and I'm glad that we went. Sometimes, you just have to put all of the problems out of your mind and forget about it for awhile.

Now, back to reality. We have a meeting with the lawyer tonight at 5, so hopefully some of our questions will be answered at least. I just want a plan, and with the PD, it always felt like the "plan" was for my son to accept the fact that he's guilty and try to get the shortest/lightest sentence possible. This was not a good plan, to say the least.

My mom has an appointment with an orthopedic specialist this morning, so we should find out soon if she will require surgery. We contacted the church in her area and they've been bringing over meals and having someone stop by during the day to help her out. It isn't much, but it's something. Surprisingly, my aunt and uncle have even been running some errands for my mom and grandma and helping out a little.

Chrysalis: I will google those words today and see what I find. I know I've been putting my DS15's issues on hold because of all of the things that have been going on with my older son. I feel like I can only deal with so many issues at once and here lately, I've been on overload.

How are you holding up?

yes whats goin on writer?

We went to court today at our new attorney's request. He wanted to see if he could get my son some of the privileges that the PD wasn't able to. The judge refused to reconsider letting my son walk at his graduation, but he is going to allow him to go to grad night (which my son wanted to do more than walk at graduation anyway). I got the feeling that the new attorney pretty much convinced the judge that not allowing our son to walk at graduation didn't make much sense, but the judge just didn't want to change the orders because doing so would have meant having to admit he'd made a mistake, which is probably something most judges don't like to do. The new attorney is definitely worth the money. He actually speaks in the courtroom and stands up for my son's rights, which the PD didn't do at all.

I will try to update more tomorrow. I'm just too tired right now. We've been so busy lately.

Writer, I have read your story. My heart goes out to you. I have a 13 yr old son with a "steady" gf and .... I could not imagine going through what you are dealing with. Crazy. I am glad your new atty is better. God Speed.

Thanks for the update writer--you've been in my thoughts a lot lately. Glad your son gets Grad Night.
Reinforces the old saying: you get what you pay for!

I had a little sleep and am feeling better this morning. I just haven't been sleeping well at all.

DS 18 will be completely finished with high school as soon as he completes his last two take-home finals, which are due Tuesday. He's quite excited that he gets to go to grad night, since it is at Disneyland. I'm glad he gets to do that at least, since he's missed out on everything else his senior year. On Thursday, which would have been his graduation day, we're either a) taking the family out to dinner if we can afford it or b) having a BBQ at the house and making steak kabobs if we can't and then he'll be off to grad night, which will be the first time he's seen many of his friends in 2 months.

We go back to court for some kind of pre-trial hearing on June 8. Not sure what's going to happen there, but I feel a little better now knowing that at least we have someone who is representing us and looking out for our best interests.

We're looking at a military-run program in Orange County for DS15. It is through the National Guard and is a 5 month residential program that is completely FREE (!!!!). He would go to school on the base and participate in community events, job training, physical activities, etc. It seems like a really great program and he's super excited about it. Of course, we don't know if he'll get accepted yet. It's for at-risk youth, but there are only enough slots for about half the applications they get. If he doesn't make it into the July class, we can try again for January, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The application process is extremely involved and he has an interview in a week and a half.

DS 20 is still staying with us and still giving grief if I ask him to stay with DS 18 so my H and I can have some UA time. We've talked to him about it, but it doesn't seem to do much good. He's looking at apartments and contemplating starting an 18-month degree in recording arts at a school in L.A. in August, but right now, we're still supporting him and housing him, so I gently remind him of that every time he rolls his eyes when I need him to do something for us.

DD 19 will be leaving for Alaska in two weeks. She'll be gone all summer working at a resort in Denali National Park for Princess cruises. I'm really going to miss her.

My mom is in a convalescent home recuperating from her surgery. She's working with a physical therapist daily. The cast will be on for another 5 - 7 weeks, and we're not sure when she'll be able to come home. I've been to see her twice. I wish she was closer so I could go more often, but she seems to be doing well.

It's busy, busy, busy here. I'm not getting anywhere near enough writing done, but hopefully things will calm down sometime and life will settle into something more close to normal again. For now, I'm just taking everything one day at a time.

Glad to hear you have had a few positive things happening. I really like the sound of that at-risk-youth program for your DS15! Try to have a nice weekend!

Next court date is July 8 for pre-trial hearing. Tentative trial date is July 29, though the lawyer says it isn't a done deal that this will go to trial yet. It all depends on what his investigation over the next month turns up. It's such a wait and see game, and I am not a patient person.

Things in my M have not been good lately. Last night, my H and DS 18 got into a violent fight that ended with DS 18 walking out in the middle of the night and H taking off in the car. DS 20 was able to find DS 18 and bring him home before he got caught violating his home supervision order. H spent the night at his parents house I think. He called me on his cell phone while he was driving around and we argued until 1:30 in the morning. He kept hanging up on me and calling back. He emailed me this morning, but I don't know if he's at work or still at his parents' house or what, since he didn't say where he was. I'm so very tired.

My H has had these angry, violent outbursts for our entire M. They don't happen all the time, but they do happen. He's never hit me (though he has gotten in my face, screaming and out of control, and restrained me in a painful way to keep me from escaping). I know he's hit and violently shoved the kids. He gets angry sometimes and he completely loses control. Last night, the incident started right in front of the baby. Instead of staying and trying to break it up like I usually do, I just grabbed the baby and took her downstairs as fast as I could. We could still hear the screaming and scuffling. The incident probably blew up more than it would have since I didn't stay around to diffuse it, but I just can't expose the baby to that kind of thing anymore. I read her a book and played with her in my room and then after they'd both taken off, I took her upstairs and put her to bed. It took me 45 minutes to finally get her calmed down enough to go to sleep. She didn't get into bed until 11:30.

I'm so tired. I just don't know if I can do this anymore. After my A, I stayed because my H honestly seemed to want to change, but nothing has changed. There's still the yelling, the arguing, the terrible uncontrolled outbursts. I don't want to live like this anymore. I just want a peaceful, normal, happy life. Is that too much to ask?

I'm sorry. I'm rambling. None of this makes sense. I simply don't know what to do. How do I stop the craziness that seems to be erupting every where around me?

writer...I don't know the whole story. I just wanted to pop in and lend a cyber hug ((writer)) and remind you that you are only one person and can only reasonably do so much. The rest you are going to have to somehow let go of. I know that's hard.

How are the summer plans for your kids going? Has your daughter left yet? How about your youngest son? Did he get into the program you were talking about?

I can remember years ago feeling horribly overwhelmed and feeling like a horrible and incompetent mother. I finally sat down and wrote down what things about motherhood that made me feel the most fulfilled. I can remember one of them was making sure my kids were read to daily. Another might have been sitting them down to do some sort of art project?

Since your kids are older, maybe a sit down meal as a family. Maybe taking 10 or 15 minutes a day with each child alone, talking? What would make you feel better as a mother that you can reasonably do? Figure it out, and do start doing it.

Your husband is an adult. How he reacts is not in your control. Do you have health insurance? Would it be possible to ask him to get some anger management therapy/classes in? Maybe this was all covered in your thread earlier. If so, I apologize and no need to explain again. If you were to approach him from a concerned standpoint, do you think he would get angrier?

Honey, I'm so worried about your level of anxiety and blood pressure. How do you feel about taking a brisk walk each night after supper to blow off some of the negativity? If I checked out some books about anger from the library, would you consider reading them for me?

Writer...have you looked at the notable posts? I believe there may be a title or two of books about anger there...

Hang in there. This time next year, even 6 months from now, your life will be considerably different - hopefully drastically improved and more peaceful. Life never stays the same for long, that's for sure. Stay strong.

Not sure if you're a praying person, but if you are, you can make a list of all your worries and the people you're worried about. Take 10 or 15 minutes in the early morning to pray. Sometimes that's all we can do. I once read about a woman who used visual therapy when she prayed. She actually pictured herself carrying her family members, one by one, and laying them at the foot of the cross, along with her worries for each one, asking God to 'take over' so to speak. Might help you too.

Sorry to hear about the altercation, writer. It's probably like a powderkeg in your house, with you and H being forced to spend every waking hour with DS18.
Do you think the fighting is because your H is not DS's biological dad, or are they fighting like a typical dad and son? Also, this was the first I had heard of your H's propensity to be violent, including physically with the kids. Just curious--if he knows that striking you is a boundary he shouldn't cross, why would it occur to him that striking a child is somehow more acceptable? It's assault.
And right now, with your son's legal troubles, H needs to cool it or stay out of the house. It's a shame your MIL won't help out, but maybe it would be a good idea to give H some cooling-off space.
((writer))

He doesn't have these outbursts often. But they've even happened with DS 16, who is his biological son, so I don't think it has anything to do with biology. He just loses his temper sometimes and gets out of control. Stress is definitely a factor. It happened once way back when we were living with my mother early in our M. H had a huge blowout with my mother and grandmother that involved lots of screaming and some pushing, but no hitting (though there were threats of getting the police involved and we ended up staying at his mother's place for 3 weeks before everyone cooled off enough for us to go back to my mom's). He's never hit my DD or me or the baby (I would kill him if he hit the baby). It's just the boys he seems to get into these altercations with, so I'm guessing it's some sort of male testosterone thing. We have had some fights too, and there are times when I've been afraid. My H is 6'1'' and 200 lbs, and he's much, much bigger than I am, so it is scary to have someone that size get up in your face and yell and scream at you, even though he's never hit me.

He's said he's willing to go to anger management, but he's said that before, and it never happens. It blows over and things are okay for awhile until the next time. I'm so tired of walking around on eggshells wondering when the next blowup might occur and trying to figure out how to keep things from escalating to that point.

We're still waiting to hear about the program for DS 16. They will be making calls for the next two weeks, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. DD leaves for Alaska on Wednesday morning. DS 20 has applied to a music school in Los Angeles but is awaiting news of financial aid.

Maybe you should ask him the question I asked about boundaries:
Why is it acceptable to hit DS's when it's unacceptable to hit anyone else? Why is it somehow NOT assault?

I would follow through on the anger management too, writer. Ask him how he would feel if you made an appointment for him. Tell him you need the home to be a haven, not a battle field, for everyone involved - and you need him to be the protector in the family from anything that makes anyone in the home feel unsafe, including his own anger.

Remind him that the boys are at an influential age and are watching his coping strategies and look up to him.

Ask him to go for a brisk walk when he begins to feel bored or frustrated. I think boredom can lead to a lot of negative feelings.

It may be time to consider family counseling as well. Your family is going through some extraordinarily stressful events. You could use the support of someone who does not have an emotional stake in the relationships. Someone who can give you a neutral view of your family, from the outside, along with some sound advice.

I think my H knows it's wrong to hit anyone. He loses his temper and then he loses control and does things he wouldn't normally do. Maybe, with the boys, he sees it more as two men fighting, which is more socially acceptable than a man striking a woman. Of course, DS 18 is 5'5" and 100 lbs. soaking wet, so I'd hardly call that a fair fight. He didn't get hurt though. My H has never hurt any of the kids. He has enough restraint at least to realize his own size and strength, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.

I honestly don't understand it. I'm not a violent person. I've never resorted to physical violence. I get mad. I yell and scream and occasionally curse in a manner that would make a sailor blush if I'm really angry, but I don't hit. Maybe that's because I'm a woman and not particularly big or strong, so physical violence would be counterproductive, since I would likely end up getting hurt. I think men in general tend to see violence as an acceptable way to solve a dispute more so than women. Not all men, of course, but some.

We need to do something about this. This isn't an acceptable way for anyone to act. I need my H to be an adult and control his own behavior and learn to deal with his anger in more constructive ways. I'm going to try to find some books and I'm going to insist on the anger management classes if he wants to continue to live in this house. I'm not going to have my family exposed to this any longer. I've looked the other way and put up with it for far too long.

Good for you, writer. Stick to your guns. You have to be the rock in the family for your kids, and this is what they need. Your home needs to be a place where they feel safe. You can do this.

Tell him you love him. Tell him you have a lot of faith in him and know he can be a good man and a great dad, and this is what will help...

I am sorry, I feel like I am grunching this thread. I also am not speaking from any MB perspective so take my opinion for what it is worth.

These physical acts against your children are never acceptable. A husband physically restraining his wife and screaming out of control. Hit and shoved teenage and adult boys. Please get a restraining order ASAP, before your husband does permanent harm to either yourself or your kids. Please seek a shelter if you can not afford to live on your own. He may be in "control today", but if he ever losses "control" we can not email you at the morgue. This is serious, do not let someone abuse yourself or your family. Do not allow your husband to abuse your family, nor be a enabler in abusing your children.

writer - I'm here again to support the above post. If there is any threat of violence to you or your children, you should seriously consider what Dr. H says about it. Hit the search function and type in the word 'abuse' and you'll eventually come across what Dr. H prescribes.

I think it's good to support your husband to get the help, but if you have any reason to be frightened for yourself or your kids, I would ask him to stay somewhere else and not to come back until he's gotten the therapy.

Straight from the doctor's mouth:

Throughout my career as a marriage counselor, I have done whatever I can to save marriages, but when it comes to domestic violence I draw the line. Unless a spouse can guarantee the other's safety from their own anger, I don't believe they should live with each other.

Hi Writer,

I am sorry you are still having such a hard time. When stress just doesn't seem to end....I know it's exhausting.

I do not have rages anymore now that my BP is treated, and I never hurt the kids, but I would rage at DH. When that ball of anger would just start growing and growing...I became another person. I wish I could go back and undo all of that. But one thing that DH did and does if I ever seem headed that way now is to draw a line in the sand. He doesn't engage -- at all. He says he will not talk about X right now and he leaves the room. If I try to follow him (which I no longer do), he sends the kids to their room and he locks our bedroom door. I could yell and scream and pound and throw dishes if I wanted, but he will not respond. At first it made me crazy...I had nowhere to vent my anger. So guess what?? I had to CONTROL it. It has been years since I had any kind of outburst. If I feel that trapped kind of feeling, I tell him, and I either go do something or take a nap or take a shower and cry.

That old idea of "letting all the anger out" is one of the dumbest ideas psychology ever came up with. Anger just begets more anger. Can you do what my DH did/does? It made me madder at first, but it worked because it placed all that emotion back on ME.

I do not believe that my H poses a danger to me or my kids. If I did, he wouldn't be here. As I said before, he's never actually physically harmed anyone. Maybe a bruise or some red marks here and there, but that's it. Mostly, his outbursts are verbal in nature with some pushing and shoving and smacking. As far as I know, there aren't punches being thrown. I can't say that for sure, since the altercation last night started in the living room and then moved to our son's room, and I wasn't present for most of it, since I was in our bedroom with the baby, but physically my son seems fine today. So, even when my H has these outbursts, there is a certain amount of self control involved that keeps him from becoming all-out physically violent.

I do try to separate myself and get away as much as I can, but I can only do so much. Last night, I chose to remove the baby from the situation as quickly as possible, which pretty much meant leaving DS 18 to fend for himself. The fight wasn't one-sided. DS 18 was yelling and screaming and pushing right back. But the baby is small, and for me, my number one priority was trying to shield her from the fight as much as possible. And honestly, I didn't really want to get in the middle of two grown men who were pushing each other around and screaming at each other because they're both quite a bit stronger than I am and I don't think anything good would have come of that.

After my H left, he called me repeatedly, and I told him over and over again that it was late and I didn't want to discuss this right then when we were both worked-up and upset and tired. When he gets like that, he doesn't usually respect my wishes to postpone discussing the issue until he's calmed down. He pushes and pushes and usually says a lot of things he regrets 100% the next day. He emailed me this morning, and true to form, apologized for almost everything he did and said last night. I knew that would happen, which is why I didn't want to talk to him. I suppose I could have just turned off the phone, but it was the middle of the night and he was very upset and driving around and I was worried about him. I didn't want anything to happen to him.

I'm not sure what causes these rages. Most of the time, he is a very docile, laid-back, easy-going kind of guy. It's kind of like he turns into the Incredible Hulk when he gets angry (though obviously not to that extreme). I think he may have ADHD, though he's never been diagnosed. Our DS 16 has very extreme ADHD and my H has recently been in contact with his bio dad after many years of no communication and learned that he has it as well. There are a lot of symptoms in my H that fit, especially descriptions from my MIL of how my H was as a child/teen. I don't know if that's related to his current issues though.

This paragraph above can be written by many victims in domestic abuse shelters.


YOu were protecting the one who needed protecting, but you shouldn't have stopped there.



This is the abuse pattern. It is almost text book.


Everything in your life is out of control.

It is the lifestyle that has been chosen for all of you. It has worked for so long. And NOW, the fruits of that lifestyle are coming home to roost.

Stop enabling bad behavior. Stop enabling abuse. Draw the line on your Husband. Anger Management classes or move out.
Draw the line on DS20. Straighten up, or move out.

And if you say you are going to do something. DO IT. DS20 in mouthy? Tell him that is unacceptable, and wait for an apology. Start acting like the adult.

This may sound harsh to you, but you have to stop looking at your lifestyle as being appropriate. It is a madhouse.

Sorry. If you were to read what you just posted and it had been put up there by someone else, you would be appalled.

LG

I agree with others...you have been in this situation so long you think it is normal. You don't want to expose the baby to these outbursts...why would you want the older kids to see it?



If you had a daughter and her boyfriend was doing this, would you counsel her to stay with him? If you were meeting a new man for the first time and he did this, would you have a second date?

You have asked him to go to anger management and he hasn't. You know what? You can't make him. But you know what you can control? Your reaction to that. You can say that you don't want to live with a man with this behavior who is not getting help for it. And then you leave or you ask him to leave. You are teaching your older kids that this behavior is okay by not standing up to it. If you are afraid to stand up to it, then contact your local domestic violence shelter for help. You may say "but it isn't that bad"...I bet alot of women said that before things got worse. Don't let them get worse.

Here is a website to check out:
http://www.drirene.com/cyclesof.htm

Writer, when I first "met" you on MB, I recall you speaking very glowingly about your H. You mentioned a long pattern of selecting poor partners and said that the bio-dads for the other kids were pretty much jerks.
And then you find your DH, and everything is wonderful. He accepts your children from other relationships, and goes on to have bio-children with you. Then, he even accepts that you have a child as a result of an affair. Wow! This guy must be a saint, I'm thinking.
All along, I'm wondering what's in it for him? Why stay when there are so many unresolved issues, so much baggage? In fact, although writer is clearly a charming and special woman, knowing most men in my life, I wonder how she was able to meet Mr. Perfect despite all the difficulties of her past life.
Well, now, the picture is coming into focus. He's a closet abuser. And has been all along. Writer just hadn't felt the need to divulge that. But now, because of the issue with DS18, all the cracks are showing. This isn't an issue about you and H needing more UA or meeting ENs.
YOU CAN'T REASON WITH AN ABUSER.
In some ways, your life has some parallels with SisterReed. She feels guilty about her "affair," and allows her H to abuse her as a result.
DO YOU REALLY WANT YOUR CHILDREN TO GROW UP THINKING THIS IS HOW YOU TREAT YOUR SPOUSE?
Time to draw the line in the sand. Counseling. This must NEVER happen again.

Yesterday, he contacted someone about anger management classes through the employee assistance program at his work. I told him last night that I am not going to live like this anymore and I will not have our kids exposed to these outbursts again. I think it's a good sign that he made the call. He's never done that before. It was after hours when he called, so he's calling again today at his lunch break. I'm not exactly sure what's involved with anger management, but when we talked last night, he did seem very motivated in his desire to find a new way to deal with his anger issues.

Ima: I think we posted simultaneously. My H is a good person. He has a lot of good qualities. He definitely isn't a saint. We have had our problems, and I've discussed some of them on here before. My H was in a long term EA with his ex-girlfriend that began a week after our wedding and lasted (off and on) for the next 10 years. Basically, he married me, even though he knew he still had feelings for her, and for a very long time managed to convince me that we could all be friends (even though they were much more than friends and I simply didn't realize it). So, I don't think I was dishonest about my H's shortcomings.

I didn't bring up the angry outbursts because he hadn't had one in a long time. The last one that I can remember was during the early days of my A, and considering everything that was going on at the time, I pretty much figured I deserved that one. But since the problems started with DS 18, things have been very tense and stressful. My H has had two of these episodes in the past several months (one with DS 18 and one with DS 16, though the first one with DS 16 wasn't nearly as bad). There has been lots of yelling and screaming, but only two incidents that were physical.

My H made a lot of changes after my A. I honestly thought these things were behind us, but the stress of the situation with DS 18 seems to be bringing up some old issues that we apparently never properly dealt with before. I do want to deal with them now, and my H seems to be on board with that.

Definitely hoping and praying that all is worked out with your H, writer. None of us are perfect, but we should all try to improve, especially when the shortcoming is as glaring as this one...
Glad he's going to some counseling. Hold firm on that boundary...

Hugs writer.

Im am glad H is willing to go get some help with anger and I hope it will lead to some other counselling for him also. He is able to change if he is willing. All youguys could use some sound optimistic support right now.

In my prayers

So what.

He made a phone call. After hours. Then at Lunch maybe today.

The staff will be at lunch too.

Writer: He NEEDS TO DO THIS.

You minimized his abuse AGAIN in your very next post:

This is indicating that you percieve all this as NORMAL.

It is NOT.

And if the Employee Assistance Program doesn't cover it, it doesn't get him off the hook. And it porbably WILL NOT cover it. He needs to find a program and DEAL WITH IT.

This is where setting boundaries and keeping to them start to make a difference in your LIFE.

THere have been none, and anything goes. You going to a better place, so stay on the road.

LG

Hi Writer, Thinking about you....how are things going?

Hanging in there. It's going to be a busy couple of days. We met with the lawyer last night and he gave us a list of things we need to do, so now we have homework. The lawyer seems to think that the judge is not leaning toward a prison sentence for our son, so that's something. He's worked with this judge a lot, and apparently very few cases that end up in his court actually go to trial. I'm really hoping this will all be over soon, but the uncertainty is still hard to deal with.

My mom is being released from the hospital tomorrow. Even though the cast won't come off for a few more weeks, her insurance only covers 30 days of rehab. So, we have to go over and try to figure out how to carve a path through her extremely dirty and cluttered house so she'll be able to get around in the wheelchair and walker. We're looking into Meals on Wheels and home visits by a nurse as well. It's hard being so far away, because I can only do so much. And I feel like I'm neglecting so many things with my own house/family.

Life has to become more sane eventually, right?

Hi Writer-
How are things going?

Okay for now. Thanks for asking.

We had a run-in with my 18-year old son's accuser at the mall yesterday. Always a pleasure. I'm hoping we don't get in trouble over this, since my son was walking around with his younger brother while my H and I shopped for clothes for my SIL's wedding. Technically, our home supervision order doesn't state my son literally has to be standing right next to me everywhere we go, and I'm hoping the judge will respect the fact that no 18-year-old boy wants to go bra shopping with his mother. We were in the same mall, but not the same store. My son saw her first, and she turned on the hysterics, burying her head in her arms and bursting into tears as soon as she saw him. We saw her later (I didn't even know she was in the mall at the time because my son didn't call and let me know he'd seen her) and she wouldn't even look at us, but I know she saw us. I don't see how she expects everyone to believe she's so traumatized just by having to see my son when she managed to go to school with him everyday for 2 months after this alleged incident occurred and she was perfectly fine. I'm so ready to be done with all of this. I haven't talked to the lawyer in awhile, but I'm going to call him today and let him know about the run-in.

Right now, we're just getting ready for the wedding on Friday. Lots of stuff to do. My mom is home and doing okay, but we pretty much have to go out there every weekend and run errands for her and help her out. It doesn't leave much time to get stuff done around here.

As far as the anger management stuff goes, nothing much happening there. Other than the phone call, my H hasn't taken any other steps to resolve the issue. He said he was going to the bookstore today to look for a book. We had a couple of arguments over the weekend, but they didn't escalate too far thankfully. We had some "alone time" too, and that was nice. I had to break the law (i.e. leave my son home alone for a couple of hours) to get it, but what can you do? It's been 3 months, and it's sort of hard to take him everywhere we go. I think my Love Bank is fairly empty right now. It's just tough to deal with so many different problems at once.

I'm so sorry there hasn't been much improvement, and I certainly wish a pox on that girl and her family. (Alas, my wishes don't carry much weight...)
Your son will survive this--just think about how far you've come from when this first broke...
Sadly, I'm disappointed to hear your husband's reaction to the anger stuff. This is the classic abuse cycle---big blow up, big empty promises, no follow through.
A BOOK? Seriously? He thinks A BOOK is going to solve this problem? Hun, this is a ticking timebomb. I really wish he's see how serious this is... but unless you push him, he won't. I completely understand that you have other things on your mind, and don't have energy to focus on this, but it needs to be a priority for both of you. The next escalation could be more serious, and do you really need the police involve with your son's legal case still unresolved? I'd say no.

Hope you have a nice holiday, writer!

Thanks Ima. You too!

Getting ready to go to my SIL's wedding tonight. Busy, busy, busy.

Hope you had a good weekend, writer!

We did, thank you.

We went to my SIL's wedding on Friday, which was beautiful. On Saturday, we drove up to apple country for a hometown jamboree. Sunday, we went to the park and watched a fireworks show. Busy, busy, busy.

Now, we're gearing up to go back to court on Thursday. I'm nervous, because we haven't spoken to the attorney in a couple of weeks, so I'm not sure what's going on with our case. We have a call in to him though, so hopefully we'll here something back soon.

Fingers crossed for your court date!

Just got back from court where .... nothing happened .... again. It was supposed to be our pretrial hearing, but the date got moved back to July 19, with the trial date (tentatively) scheduled for July 29.

One interesting development did occur after we left the courtroom. We were in the hallway near the stairs talking to the investigator that works for our attorney and the "victim" and her family walked by. Her dad starts yelling at us right there in the courthouse, telling my son to "man up" over and over again before his wife can steer him down the stairs. This after the judge specifically ordered that neither of our families are allowed to have any communications with each other at all. Luckily, our investigator and several court employees were witnesses, and the investigator said we now have grounds to get a restraining order. He's going to inform the attorney about what happened and get on that. Her family is totally crazy. I so want this to be over.

I'm so sorry writer. I would definitely take steps to deal with what the father did.

Well, what would you expect the parents to be like? If the daughter is bizzare, she probably learned it from the looney parental units. Sorry for you and your fam!!!!!

Yeah, I knew her parents were crazy. I'm just happy that they're starting to express their craziness in public, in the courthouse no less, where there are plenty of witnesses. Stuff like this certainly isn't going to help their case, but it may help ours, so in that respect, I welcome it.

Thinking of you today, Writer. Isn't this the next court date?

Thanks.

Today was supposed to be our pretrial hearing, but our attorney was sick, so another attorney sat in for him. Apparently, this means we have lost our opportunity to have a pretrial hearing, so the case goes straight to trial. Trial date is set for July 29th.

It isn't looking good. According to what I have been told by various people in the legal field, a case only goes to trial for one reason - the DA is pretty sure they can get a conviction. I can't talk to our attorney until tomorrow, so I don't know anything for sure, but it's looking like there's a fairly good chance that my son will be convicted.

I have no idea what to do at this point. We will incur another $5000 in attorney fees if the case goes to trial. We haven't even paid off all of the last $5000. He wants $850 a month, which is about a third of our take-home pay right now. If we can't come up with some more $$$ fast (yeah, right) we'll probably have no choice but to go to trial with a PD.

Things just feel so hopeless right now. I'm so tired of fighting this. It doesn't seem to do any good anyway. In cases of he said/she said, it's pretty apparent that her word is taken over his pretty much every time.

So sorry about this, Writer. I can't believe your attorney took your money and then didn't even show up for pre-trial. Is there any recourse there? That seems even worse than what the PD did. I'm not a legal expert, so I can't offer anything there. I'm really sorry you have all this in front of you, though. Did you do the lie-detector thing?

Writer, it sounds as though the pretrial conference WAS held even though another attorney (from his office) sat in on it. A pretrial conference is really just for the attorneys and for the judge to get a handle on the outstanding issues to be heard at trial. Will this be a jury trial?

Please don't panic without more information. The other side of a DA taking a case to trial is because they CAN'T get a plea bargain agreement from the defendant and they have no choice, other than to dismiss the case. It doesn't necessarily mean they have an air-tight case. Has there been any talk about a plea?

That bites about the $$, unfortunately there isn't too much you can do about that. Your son's attorney could very well withdraw from the case for nonpayment but if he did, the case would certainly NOT go to trial on July 29. The Judge would have to give a new attorney (even if it is a PD) time to get up to speed on the case. I say the longer the case is delayed the better the chances for your son.

Mainly, you should listen to your attorney. If you're not happy with him, then you should tell him so and why. BTW, if he DOES withdraw, I would suggest asking for a detailed accounting of how that $5,000 retainer was used.

None of the issues were even brought up in court. We were in the courtroom for less than a minute. The substitute attorney only showed up a few minutes prior to that, so I don't see how any sort of conference could have taken place.

It is juvenile court, so there won't be a jury.

I was happy with the attorney up until a few weeks ago. We haven't spoken to him in several weeks. We've called, but he doesn't return our calls directly. He usually has his secretary relay messages. On July 8th, he was supposed to pick up the evidence that the DA had, but we haven't spoken to him since then, so we don't even know what evidence there is in the case. I was told that the DA wants to "win" and that a plea bargain is considered a "win" so, if the case isn't air tight, they will usually go for the plea bargain and get their "win." They only do a trial when they are fairly certain it will be a win, because it looks bad on their record to lose.

I'm considering breaking NC with the OM (OC's bio dad) and asking him for the $$$. He hasn't provided a single cent since the OC was born. I hate having to do this, but we've tried every other possible route to get the $$$ and we're running out of time.

These are very serious charges. If convicted, my son's life will be permanently ruined. I cannot just sit by and allow that to happen. I do not trust the PD to handle such a serious case.

I would not let up until you reach your attorney. Can you send him an email? I would tell him that it's reaching the point that you are seriously doubting his commitment to your son and his case.

Contacting OM for the $$???? How does your H feel about this? This goes against everything MB. Bad idea IMHO.

Our attorney is sick and won't be in the office until tomorrow. The secretary said that was the soonest we'd be able to contact him. I don't have an email address. All our contact has been in person or over the phone.

My H and I discussed the possibility of asking the OM for $$$ several months ago, but then we weren't sure there was going to be a trial and we thought we could handle the $5000. We've known all along that we wouldn't be able to come up with $10,000 without resorting to drastic measures. We emptied out H's 401K to come up with some of the first $5000, but that was the last big chunk of $$$ we had access to. The rest we have to pay from my H's paychecks, and they aren't even enough to cover our monthly expenses without the $850 a month going to the attorney.

From a legal standpoint as far as contacting OM, under what guise would you ask for the $$? Child support or as a favor? If you ask for CS, he would be an idiot to just hand over cash because if you ever took him to court, any informal payments would not be considered CS. Are you going to "blackmail" him? If you don't help me out, I will file CS on you? What? How will you approach this?

Honestly, I think you're opening up a can of worms you REALLY don't want to open, from a legal standpoint, AND for the health of your marriage. Come on Writer, you really can't be serious about this.

I am actually serious. It would probably qualify more as blackmail. OM's family doesn't know anything about the OC, and he doesn't want them to. His daughters, his ex-wife, his current wife - no one knows. I don't want to have to hold that over his head, but it seems like a better option than robbing a bank at the moment.

I'm a mom. I'm trying to keep my son's entire life from being flushed down the toilet. And I've been doing some reading about the deplorable conditions in CA's 10 youth prisons. It's so bad, USA Today even did a feature on it. Kids going to school in cages that aren't even big enough to stand up or turn around in. Food that's all blended together and shoved through a slot in the door for the kids in solitary (which, as a sex offender, is where my son would likely end up). I am NOT sending my son to a place like that. He is a good kid. I don't want to know what something like that would turn him into. And even if he does make it out relatively unscathed, he'll never be employable. We'll have a difficult time even finding a place to live, since he'll be on the Megan's Law website, and he'll have to live with us for the rest of his life because he won't be able to support himself.

So, yes, I'm serious. Blackmail doesn't sound so bad compared to the alternative.

You're assuming that your son will be convicted AND sent to prison. This is his 1st offense? IF he is convicted, I seriously doubt he would be sent to prison. Also, there are exclusions to the Megan's Law registration and I'm sure your attorney would tell you that your son could be excluded. Even if he was required to register, I doubt it would be for the rest of his life. My BIL (an adult) had to register for 10 years (the length of his probation). Once his probation was up, his name was removed. He was convicted in Montana (through a plea agreement) and then served his probation in Texas. California is a little more lax than other states but I think you're making this worse than it really is.

I know you are worried. I'm a mom too.

I still think going to OM for $$ will backfire on you and be a HUGE mistake.

I'm just freaking out. Sorry.

Going to trial seems so risky. I have no way of knowing when I walk into that building on July 29th if my son will be walking out with me. That is a scary thing. All along, our attorney didn't seem to think this would ever go to trial. I don't know what has changed. No one is telling me anything.

Even if my son only had to register for 10 years, he's only 18. 10 years is a lifetime at that age. It's hard enough to get a job now as it is. How will he ever get one if he has a felony sex conviction on his record? It seems like his entire future is being ripped right out from underneath us.

The hardest part is, I really do believe in my son's innocence. He's been very consistent with his side of the story. I asked our attorney about the lie detector test, and he recommended against it since he couldn't use it in court anyway. This is so hard, because I really used to believe that everyone accused of a crime was guilty. I just didn't think things like this happened. My entire faith in the American judicial system has been completely destroyed. I don't trust anyone anymore. I hate how angry and bitter this is making me and my son and our family. I don't want to have to be skeptical of everyone and their motives, but I don't feel as though I have a choice.

((((Writer)))))

The number one thing you need to do ASAP is TALK to your attorney. Don't quit talking until you understand EVERYTHING, every risk, EVERYTHING. K?

Today, there is nothing you can do. Right?

So breathe and try to relax. Do something to take your mind off of all of this. Tomorrow will come I promise you. Control what you CAN, you'll make yourself CRAZY trying anything else.

Don't step in and try to take God's place. Let Him have the reins.

I'm so sorry writer. This just makes me so upset for you and your family. And I would call every 15 minutes if you have to tomorrow to talk to that lawyer. I know that the NOT knowing what is going on has to be driving you crazy.

Hate to be a downer, but I would get a lie detector test. Doesn't matter if it would hold up in court. I think if he passed one, it would help his case, at least with the prosecutor.

My son still wants to take a lie detector test too. But our lawyer said not to do it and it isn't cheap. We can't even come up with the $$$ to keep the lawyer as it stands right now. I have no idea where we would get hundreds of dollars more to cover the test. Right now, it is a massive understatement to say that we are living paycheck to paycheck. The next check is gone weeks before we even get it at this point.

I would lay the bulk of this aggravation at your lawyers feet. I was very glad to read that you got the high-priced lawyer instead of the half-assed PD and as far as law goes, you ussually get what you pay for.

But he dropped the ball, and he didn't even tell you about what was going on. Where does the 5G go in this case? How is it justified? He is supposed to be a counselor and keep you in the loop.

There better be a good reason for this and I would threaten him with whatever I could and hold his feet to the fire to get your son off. The money is not the issue now, the law firms integrity is, and that will be much more painful than him not getting paid.

Im sorry this has happened Writer. I don't want to worry you any more than you are, but if he isn't dancing on top of his desk with a broken arm or something,(sick?), telling you how he is going to make up for it then I would really be ready to find a way to procecute him if its possible. This isn't freakin K-mart where gettin your money back will do.


As Far as hitting up OM for help, I am for it if he has any character at all, or has grown some or a pair. I would keep it disceet though and let H do the talking or an intermeditary, appealing to his sense of responsibility for a child he helped bring into this world. It has to be a one time thing and between you adults and him. This shouldn't be ever seen as his door to start having a relationship. It would depend upon his character.

That all depends tho if he knows about him allready because then it will definatly backfire. More input on that from others here. .

I understand the money situation. But how are you going to pay the attorney?

I couldn't give you advice that goes against what your attorney is telling you to do.

Just my opinion. I've been through something like this with a friend. He was a great guy, almost perfect. He was accused of molesting his step daughters. No one could believe it. I advised him to take a lie detector test. He let me know that his attorney advised against it because it wouldn't be admissible in court.

Instead he lost his wife, his family, his step daughters, and had to register as a sex offender.

I had some dealings with investigators, the prosecutor and others. They all pointed to him refusing a lie detector test.

God Writer,

I saw the signs on the SAA forum for people to look in on you, esp. attorneys, so that is what I am doing now. I believe I have seen you post on the SSA site. I thought I had problems a few weeks ago, and I did. But, you are facing some issues now and my heart simply goes out to you. I do believe you have some recourses tho. I am NOt an attorney, so if I can do no more that offer you support and prayers, that is what I will do.

I would like to offer a couple of suggestions. If I were you I would try to replace your attorney. I say this because I have had a few instances in dealing with attorneys - one when I had a dui, another with my W's dui's, another when my son committed a misdemeanor when he was 16, and another when I was apppointed my mom's guardian. In all those experiences the attorneys were timely, they updated me or us, and they Were available. I have never had the experience of having to go into a court unprepared, uncoached, or uninformed. You would need an expert opinion from princess meggy or someone else qualified to advise, but I think you could at this time apply for a PD. And, I believe you should. As I understand this would have to be decided by a judge, and if you qualify financially I feel that could happen. A change in attorneys could result in giving you more time, and more strategy. It really sounds like the attorney you hired is out of his league in this case. Other option is for you and your H to just show up at his office like late in an afternoon an demand that he see you.

Another thought. Have you and your H considered talking directly to the state's attorney? This would be a little unusual, but I think possible. He does not know you personally or you son, but sometimes I think that is what defense attorneys do - to make the defendents visible as people. I think he would have an obligation to meet with you.

I have not read your full story, but enough that I believe I have the flavor of it. There was one time that I raised my hand to my W and that was to restrain her back in 1982 when she had a manic episode, and that was to prevent from taking off with her car. I have been physical with my son and daughter when they were young but only spankings, and I did not like that at all. This is something that you most likely will have to handle when the situation with your son is over, but I, as a guy, feel you need to get this guy your H out of your house. You have been tolerating too much and that is enabling him and excusing him. This would have to be done tho when you are thru this crisis.

Well that is all Writer, just get a good nite's sleep and wake up to a sunset hopefully, and that you will have my prayers starting tonight.

Tom

I agree with believer.

At this point your attorney,*cough ,gag* , would be protected if there was no lie detector test showing your sons innocence wouldn't he?

Just another thought you don't need writer I know, and I hate to put down this lawyer and make you paranoid but this really sucks for you.

This is how I would handle it tommoroww when your talk to him.

Let him tell you what is up and what happened. See what he says and at the very most let him know you are not happy. Don't threaten him. But see what he is going to do now. Don't let him off the hook by firing him out of rage.

Behind the scene get a lie detector test yourself done by an acredited administrator. Sell your Car if you have to.

Research what you can do if anything and what that involves against butterfingers while you wait for the Lie detector results.

If there is no legal recourse then look into a possibility of a mistrial or something that would cost the lawyer more in aggravation than the 5G and in the long run hurt his credibility.

When you have done all this and know where you stand with the law legally and have all the options laid out, give him a copy of the Lie detector test and tell him you sure hope he gets your son off, cuz here is more proof he is innocent.

Thats it, don't threaten him, it will be implied.


I sure hope this site can't be traced by this lawyer of yours, I better look out my window for the guys with no necks and pinky rings now.

Oh and I also think you should get another attorney lined up AFTER you get the Lie detector test so if you can fire this guy,(Talking to states attorney like Tom said is a good idea), and you can get your 5G back, you can hire a real lawyer.

Hi Writer,

One more comment, and since I read further I now realize about your temptation to ask OM for financial support. NO! Simply No.

As a husband and as a guy how do you think your H will feel if your former lover had to bail you out? For me that would be a deal breaker. You guys are a family (hopefully) and as such you do not need this guy in your life again to totally break that exclusive circle called marriage.

Please think of Your family if you do want to preserve that.

Tom

The thing is, up until less than 2 weeks ago, I really liked this lawyer. He was available to us. He came very highly recommended by a friend of mine who is also an attorney (not criminal law). He has a very good reputation. I'm not sure what's been going on the past few weeks. I hope things will get straightened out when we speak to him tomorrow. Right now, I just don't feel as though I've gotten my $5000 worth, so I'm reluctant to fork out more $$$. We've only met with him in person once (we also met with his investigator once) and he has appeared in court twice (each time was about 10 minutes). We've spoken to him on the phone a few times as well, but only for a few minutes each time. That just doesn't seem like $5000 worth of work.

Do you, whilst recommending asking OM for money, realise that he is not the father of the son in question?

He is the father of writer's baby daughter. After the birth, writer and her H decided against asking him for child support, because doing so allows OM to go to court and get visitation, and be in their marriage for ever. Dr Harley advises that a couple should not go for CS if they want the best chance for their marriage, because of the connection between CS and visitation.

As I understand her to be saying, writer has recently considered asking him for money now, so that they can put it towards this son's defence.

Also, as I understand it, writer asked this son's bio father for money when these events first unfolded. He too does not pay for his child. Sadly, although this is his son and he has been told how critical the situation is, he has declined to pay. He lives abroad and an order could not be enforced in the few week before writer's son turned 18 - which he is now.

Hence princessmeggy's questions about what writer would tell OM - the baby girl's bio father - to get money from him. If she calls it CS he might well ask for visitation, which will affect their marriage long after this legal trouble is over. he also will seek legal advice, and will be told not to give her voluntary money, because he will still have to give her statutory money as well, if an award is backdated. If she says it is to help a child that is not his, then why would he pay, since he hasn't fallen over himself so far to help this child that is biologically his?

Visitation ALWAYS opens the door to a relationship that the BS would rather not have. writer's H is committed to bringing up the little girl as his own. He should not have to have OM in his family for any reason if he does not want that, which he does not.

Tom her H would have to be OK with it of course first and be involved. This is not about pride and they don't have enough money to eat it sounds like.

As far as I am hearing, H is stressed out of his mind right now and needs anger management intervention. If he can accept help from her sons Dad maybe it will help him open up to other counseling that he needs.

I can only believe that Writers H is very concerned with the safety of the OC and that this is stressing him very much. I can't imagine what it will do to the family if the young man gets convicted.

How would you feel if your acting father left any stone unturned in this case?

For all we know the OM has learned something about life in the last 18 years and is able to be discreet and help support a life he brought into the world.

Writer, really, what are the chances the OM has grown up enough to handle this? Is there a chance he has the money? How much do you know? You really shouldn't know anything as it applies to recovery for your marriage.

How about your husband? Is he on board with this?

Give this seriuos thought, you don't want to jump from the frying pan to the fire.

Hi again writer,

Well is totally up to you, and your family. I would seriously question him, and look at the alternatives I suggested (and of course I have no legal background).

Right now I am going to watch a Chicago Cubs game on tv, and damn i hope they lose...*s*. I am from wis. and my W 'forced' me down here, and I am glad for that due to the good jobs, but am still a Brewers and Packer fan.

Anyway, that was meant as lite humor. So, I feel what you need to do tonight is try to get a smile on your face no matter what you and you son are facing, and show that to your H. Watch an old tv show with that silly Ted Baxter, or whatever makes you smile.

And yes, as a human being, you Are going to have my prayers tonight. So, relax and smile, but then get with it.

Tom

Nope, I assumed it was his son. That makes it completly different and in no way would I ask him for a dime to help her family unless it was just support for the daughter.

I was going from this statement writer made, I'm sorry writer


But the rest of my statements about getting the lie detector test and finding out more about this lawyer debaucle I still stand on. Unless a lawyer has better advice to help her fight

Thanks for stting that straight SugarC,

I remember her mentioning the Boys real Dad and contacting him before, and his houdini act. I thought this was more of the same man and another opportunity for him to help that hadn't been explored.

And Tom, My apoligys to you too

Have you gone to places like Catholic Charities or the United Way? What about calling 211? Or even a women's shelter? These sorts of places should have resources to you help you, if nothing else, with your day-to-day budget. Perhaps that might help your budget..

Our financial troubles started after our OC was born, when I lost my job. I was a substitute teacher, and I had no family who could watch the baby and couldn't find a daycare that would only charge me for the days that I worked, which were not regular at all. So, while my son's legal issues are the cause of our immediate problems, our long term problems are definitely tied to the birth of our OC. We have been looking at the possibility of having to file for bankruptcy (almost a certainty now) for some time. That was my reasoning behind seeking money from the OM. A baby is extremely expensive, and my H and I have shouldered 100% of the brunt of that, while the OM has paid for absolutely nothing.

We are still trying to get money from my 18 year old son's bio dad as well, but as someone mentioned, he isn't living in the U.S. I have tried his many contact numbers, but he isn't returning our calls. I actually do have a child support order against him. I've had one for about 17 years, but he hasn't paid a single dime of it. The court "closed" our case a number of years ago because they couldn't find my son's dad to enforce it (he disappeared for 15 years). He owes about $50,000 in back child support, but there's a better chance of a cow jumping over than moon that ever seeing any of that money. He is an expert escape artist. I don't know his address. Most of his phone numbers don't work. He doesn't respond to emails. I can't very well go to Mexico and track him down (though I've considered it).

And Tom, thank you. I appreciate all the prayers and positive thoughts I can get. I think I'll watch the Bachelorette. Nothing like a bit of cheesy, melodrama to take away the tension.

Didn't you find out that they had convictions of drug abuse? Did your lawyer mention getting that in front of the judge somehow?

Maybe the law doesn't allow you to use that stuff in court but because its your sons word against hers it sure would be nice to show thier true colors.

I am worried now about your lawyer you hired. I was very hopeful when you posted that you got rid of the PD and got this guy that you would get good representation. Now I feel this has brought you back to a place of doubt and gloom. I know how worried you allready are and stressed the whole family is so I hope there is good news tommorow from the lawyer when he appears.

Is there a way I wonder for you to get the date delayed, get your money back, and find another lawyer if he doesn't satisfy you with what he has planned? Can you use his non-appearance as a reason for this? You mentioned that you didn't trust anybody before when you didn't have anything but a PD, I can't imagine how you feel now. You need a break writer, you should at least have confidence that the $5000 you spent was for the best defense for your son, and that is being tested too.

Its like you are in the wilderness with all this testing your faith. I heard this said once in a movie but it applies in every situation where we feel lost also.


" What do people die of when they are lost in the wilderness? They die of shame. They waste thier time blaming themselves, I should have done this, I shouldn't have done that. They do the opposite of what will save them, and that is thinking of how to get home"

I want to encourage you that you have nothing to be ashamed of and have all the right to fight this attack on your family with any means possible, whithin truth and integrity, or else what are you winning? Bad things happen to good people and this crazy girl is going to reap what she has sown one way or another. Do not despair, take heart and leave no stone unturned to make the law work for you. Bring her to justice and protect your son and family any way you can boldly before the throne of grace.

If you can't get another lawyer and no other legal counsel speaks here take action that will make this lawyer you have tow the line. Make your issue with the integrity of his performance now because that is what is being attacked with your son. That $5000 was a symbol and a sign of respect you sacrificed for this guy. You deserve to get the same respect.

I know I posted a lot on this thread tonight but it really bothers me when this stuff happens to struggling people like you and your family. I will lay off and pray for the best for you and yours. May God work miracles for you tommoroww.

Her parents have no drug convictions, but her father has admitted to being a cocaine dealer back when he was driving truck. Apparently, he was a very good one, because he never got caught.

I'm not making any decisions until I talk to the lawyer tomorrow. I can't think right now.

OK, well it's "tomorrow" now, so first thing in the morning, get on the phone with your attorney's office. Go down there and camp in the lobby if you have to.
Also, you need to dig deep here--you will need to start selling everything off and your family will need to help. Everyone in your circle should be asked to chip in. If it was a cousin of mine that I hadn't seen in years, but she called me with your situation, I'd chip in at least a few hundred bucks, even though I can't afford it.
If the option is your son in prison or the OM chipping in a few grand, I'd consider having an intermediary talke to the OM. He's gotten off scott-free in this situation. But only ask him if you think he's in a financially secure situation. No need to go to him if his bank account is dry.
Ask your H to ask his worthless mother to help, too. You have to swallow your pride and do what you can. At 18, your son might not be sent to juvenile prison, so you need to do what you can. Your entire family should sit down and everyone, especially DS18 needs to say what they can do as a family to get this ironed out.
And I still think you need to cough up the $$ for a lie-detector. It's small change compared to what this is costing you in the long run.

writer,

The fact is that you could still ask the court for a public defender, given your financial situation. Your son has a right to one.


Your OM has no responsibility to pay the court costs...

You would have to go to court and get an order for OM to make payments to support OC, which certainly would help in your struggle. If it is already in place, then you need to get those payments done via the system so OM has no way to escape paying, and you can ask for that to happen. It takes awhile for his check to be garnished for support - but the state will take money from his check to support OC. Get the ball rolling on it, and don't delay.

You do NOT have to contact OM to do this. Let your atty handle that stuff - you do not need to break NC to do it, and you never have to speak to OM to get money to support OC. Just doesn't need to happen. It is a legal matter, and therefore attorneys handle it all. No contact for life means just that. YOU do not call OM, write letters, nada. Support for OC goes thru attorneys, and that is that.


Good luck with your son's situation. If this is a high school drama, which it appears to be, I hope the DA figures it out and realizes the girl is being a vindictive little witch and that nobody's life needs to hinge on her temporary anger.


SB

Ditto

There are three problems with going this route. 1st -- they need the money now to help DS with HIS legal problems. It takes time to go to court, establish paternity, get a child support order in place, and then wait for the payments to start happening.

2nd -- if they go this route, OM will probably assert his rights as the father and insist on visitation. Even worse, if he figures out what is going on in Writer's family, he may claim that Writer isn't capable to be the managing possessory of this child and try to go for full custody himself and then end up getting a CS award against Writer. It's a gamble.

3rd -- If any kind of visitation were awarded, there would be contact, if only in the logistics of trading off the baby for visitation.

I still think this is a very BAD idea. It will end with broken contact, make Writer's H feel like crap knowing that OM is back in the picture in any way.

I say hold the attorney's feet to the fire. Writer, I also think you should get a private polygraph if there is any way possible. You don't need to show the results to anyone if they are not favorable. However, if they are, I would show them to your attorney, mail a copy to the DA, post them everywhere, shout it from the rooftops.

What did the attorney say today?

I'm coming in late and playing catchup, let me see if I understand.

1. You have a 17yr old son who is in legal trouble.

2. You are thinking of asking HIS genetic father for monetary help in his situation.

3. This 17yr old was not a product of adultery against your husband. He either pre dates your current marriage, or is a COM.

Is this correct?

Because I swear, If your thinking about breaking contact with your adultery partner (Your youngest child's genetic father) to help pay for something that is not even about OC........

I'm going to reach through this monitor and thump you in the nose!!

Go ahead, Gack, make my day.

As I've stated before, our financial issues go far beyond the scope of our current legal problems. The issues started 2 years ago, when the OC was born and I lost my job. Yes, I need money for our current legal issues, but I also need money for our house payment (which OC lives in) and our credit card bills (which we ran up buying the amazing amount of stuff a baby requires and which I no longer had, since my oldest was 14 when she was born). Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to feed everyone until my H gets paid on Thursday. We haven't been grocery shopping in 2 weeks. The pickings are getting sparse.

My son turned 18 in May. He predates my current marriage. I am also trying to get the money from his bio dad, but he's a slippery fish who tends to disappear for decades at a time when the going gets rough. He has apparently pulled another Houdini, because all of the phone numbers I have for him have mysteriously stopped working.

Did you reach your attorney yet today?

Ditto IMA

We've left messages. He's generally in court in the morning and doesn't return calls until late afternoon. I'm hoping to hear something soon.

That is exactly what's she's thinking about doing Gack. The $$ is to pay the legal fees for her older son, who is not OC.

Initially yes, but now I'm looking beyond our immediate problems. This isn't going to end after this court case is over. We were struggling and falling behind on our bills long before my son ever got arrested. Once this is over, we still face foreclosure on our home, bankruptcy, no credit, and a crappy job market that makes it pretty darn difficult to secure gainful employment. Those are the same things we were facing prior to my son's arrest. This situation just sped up the process a little. It didn't create the problem.

No it isn't pm and Gack!

writer is thinking of asking the BABY'S genetic father for CS, and using this to pay 18 year-old son's legal costs!

IS THAT CLEAR NOW?!!

I thought that's what I'd said.

Okay, would it make everyone feel better if I use OUR $$$ to pay for the lawyer, and OM's $$$ to help pay for the mortgage (on the house OC lives in), food (OC eats) and diapers and such? Because I don't have enough money for any of that stuff either.

Well, you agreed with Gack, and that isn't what HE said!

Writer, I understand where you're coming from, believe me I do. It's called "survival mode"-- doing whatever you can to make ends meet.

If you were struggling BEFORE this all started, and you say it's because of OC, it may be time to rethink how you're living. I agree OC's father SHOULD pay child support, but really going to him and hoping for a lump sum payment is really taking a HUGE gamble in ways I've already stated. But, it's your life... and your OC's life... Will this be what's best for OC?

I wish I was wealthy Writer, I'd help you myself!

((Writer))

I should have been clearer... this is only part I agreed with:

A lot of people have brought up lifestyle changes - all of them are people who don't know how I live.

My house is old, falling apart, and located in a neighborhood full of drug dealers and gang bangers. I have 2 cars. 1 is my H's work car, and it is 6 years old (paid for) and has over 200,000 miles on it. 1 is my van (needed to take kids to school, which is 6 miles away with no public transportation available) and it is 10 years old with 160,000 miles and barely runs. I do not own any sort of recreational vehicle. I do not own a fancy big-screen TV. I do have basic cable/internet/phone and I won't give it up, because it's about the only "fun" thing I get to do, and going crazy sitting staring at a wall all day will cost more in medical bills than it will save. We don't take vacations. Our date nights (when we have them) usually involve a coupon. Every trip I take to the grocery store involves multiple coupons. I honestly don't see how I can downgrade my lifestyle anymore. It already fairly well sucks.

Writer, as soon as Random House gets here, I'll send you half my advance! I really would if they would come! I think your husband needs to look for a job in a tiny Alabama town, and then you and I can sit outside the courthouse where To Kill A Mockingbird was filmed and be inspired to write. And your son, who is cleared of all charges with apologies, will flourish and take music classes from my DH. Then, because your DS has been refined into an awesome young man through his trial by fire, I might allow him to date my beautiful, smart, funny, talented DD when she is old enough. She likes to write too.

And we all lived happily ever after

I like it.

This is definitely the best idea I've heard all day.

But I'm not sure I could learn how to speak Southern. Don't ya'll have your own language and such?

I'll teach you. And you can, like, totally teach me to speak Valley Girl. Gag me with a spoon.

Actually, let's take a spoon and gag this girl who is making y'all's lives miserable. A really big spoon.

(I'll bet you didn't know y'all had a possessive form!)

My H is fond of using all-ya'll. He thinks he's a Southerner because his bio dad is from Georgia and he lived there for about a year when he was 5.

Oh, and just so you know, for the really big gag jobs, we use a pitch fork in my neck of the woods.

Thump!!


How many times have we talked about this over the last year?
If you do this, you WILL cause more problems than you will solve!

If I where in your husbands shoes there would only be two options, Increase our combined income or live in a box.

The other options all end with Divorce.

Since we first started communicating, how many applications have you filled out? How many temporary staffing services have you applied to? Have you finished your novel?

What have you done to increase your combined income?

I want the best for you, I really do. But weather you like it or not you are still living beyond your means.

You have to either increase your income, or reduce your lifestyle.

Fore example.
My mother-In-Law is about to move into a MotorHome and live behind her sisters house. Why? Because that's all she and her husband can afford right now.

Well Gack, right now, I've got 3 of my sons, our OC, myself and my H living in our little 1400 square-foot house. I don't think there's a motorhome out there that could fit all of us, and I don't know where I'd get the money for one anyway.

Applications: I lost count, but lots.

Temporary Staffing Services: They don't work with a baby, for the same reason substitute teaching doesn't work. You never know when a job will come up and you have to be ready to go at a moment's notice. I don't have family who can watch the baby and daycare centers expect you to pay whether you come everyday or not, so I would have to pay for days I don't even work and would probably end up spending more than I make. Also, I am under a court order to provide 24-hour a day care to my 18 year old son. I don't know a daycare on earth that would take him.

Novel: I'm getting really close. I'm hoping to be ready to start the agent search by early fall. I'm working on it every chance I get. In fact, I stopped writing to respond to this post. Bad me.

Writer, you can save your home if you want to. Have the 20 year old, the 17 year old and the 19 and 15 year old get part time work and bring you 50-100 dollars a week.

That way, you will have extra $1000-1600 a month to support the family and get past this difficult stage. There is no reason they cannot do this. At least for the summer months.

Even better if one of the kids works at a restaurant and brings home leftovers...this would help feed the family too.

Would this be enough extra money to get you thru the summer?

We have an appointment with the lawyer in 2 hours.

We are going to start charging the 21 year old rent. The 18 year old can't work right now, since he's on court-ordered supervision. The 19 year old is in Alaska. She's paying her own way through college, so I'm not going to burden her even more by asking for money she doesn't have. Our 16 year old has a lot of problems (ADD, behavioral disorders) and it's all I can do just to keep him out of jail (for things he actually does). He's currently on 6 months probation for truancy and possession of marijuana.

Writer1,
Knowing nothing about your novel, but a good bit about publishing, forget the agent. A good agent doesn't need you, because he has established authors. A struggling agent won't do you much good. Identify the right publishers yourself, do the submissions, and keep the 15% you'd pay an agent.

I have an anonymous email just for MB: mbretread@yahoo.com

I will be happy to help you get directly to a few of the reviewers who read manuscripts for the editors, who are close friends. Those people can give you feedback and steer you to the best publishing house for your genre.

Thanks Retread.

I'll be in touch when the novel is ready to go. This court case has set me back some, but I'm still trying to work as much as I can.

I'm glad you are still writing. If you are like me...writing is sometimes the only sanity saver!

Hi Writer,

I now am looking in here at your story because my heart goes out to you. Well, I think someone advised you to sit in your son's attorney's office to insist on seeing him. And yea I know, attorney's are normally in court in the morning, then back in office in pm or evening. Why have you not gone there in person?

Writer, in regard to finances, it is tough, believe me I know. Huge hospital bills in past for Char when, even tho we had ins. paying 50% (normally the max on psychiatric diagnosis) it was still tough. So, yea you are going to have to reinvent your lifestyle to either cut deeper, get additional income, or obtain a subsidy. Writer I am not trying to upset you - just trying to urge you to not continually wring your hands at this time. You seem to be panically now. Here are my suggestions:

1) Prioritize your creditors. Most important are of course your mortgage and your son's attorney. Less are other creditors such as, bank cards, etc. For those, try to call them and work out a deal..like $10 a month. From what I have heard, most creditors will take anything over nothing.

2) Look, I am 68 years old, and I have had three part-time jobs over the last five years - one at Kohl's in the mens' dept., one at a really nice local hardware store, and one at the local library. You don't need special or proven skills for these jobs, and in alot of cases they will conform hours to your schedule. Good computer skills including spreadsheet knowledge would certainly be good, and I assume you have that. Temporary agencies I would agree with you would be out unless you have affordable child care. I didn't really need to work these jobs but a) it was nice to have extra $, and b) I want to work until I am 95. Okay.

3) I am not sure about Catholic Charities and United Way agencies as to their ability to help you. Based on funding cuts over the last 20 years I believe these agencies have pretty much diminished. You have to have a local food bank tho. Here in IL I have volunteered with a bank that serves northern IL. The financial criteria for qualifying for food is failry flexible, but it is dependent on community drives and contributions rather than a state's budget. At least you could obtain the staples - dairy, bread, and a few other things. And no, no ice cream..*s*.

4) Do you have a minister or priest who you feel you can condide in, and who could help you network, not only for a job but for financial support, or child care if you found a job?

Well you may have exhausted all of these options, I do not know, it is hard to even try to encourage or attempt to advise anyone online these days. But, you do seem to be a little wringy and resistive, and the people who are on here talking to you are Real people. Financial distress really does cause most people who face it to panic. I believe it is the Leading cause of divorce and separation in a M in this country, bar no other reason - adultery, irreconcilable differences, abuse, etc. I really think Writer you need to take a step back and breathe for awhile and regroup. And do not please let this distress influence you to stoop to contact the OM. I could tell you stories and stories of people I have met and who have influenced me, yes even now, and events that have influenced me when in the darkest hour. Do you not think that other people, yea historical types too, have not sweated it out in a situation? Take Eisenhower in June 1944 with the decision to 'go' and possibly risk having thousands killed and lose the offensive and possibley the war? You are Not Ike, but you are Writer. Okay.

Well wow...ya know I have wanted to write a screenplay and have seemed to have great ideas and after first page it goes away and I just get busy with daily life. Keep your dream.

Tom

Good advice Tom, I remember when we lived off the food bank and those horrid twinkies.
Luri that was an awesome post, love that attitude.

Writer my daughter was 16 when my wife stared to fall apart, There has not been one day since then that every one of my kids have not given thier last penny in support of the family. Since my wifes passing I have been able to let them off the hook, as it should be, but L would never deny them the chance to help, and they would never think twice about it. They grew up poor and never knew it. Family is everything and they know/knew it.

The OC,(the babys), father might be a good choice for support for your household but its the timing and situational curcumstances that we are all, (at least me), concerned with. It looks so bad because you are willing to seek him out regaurding your 17 year old, but before you were proud and willing to tough it out in the name of integrity and love for the little girl. It seems/looks like you are selling this out in desparation, we all are afraid of what this will do to your family, and I see it as desparation. Which I understand why you are. I would appeal to whatever conviction the kids have, and give them the chance to support the family any way they can.

If you are seeking child support for the little girl, and you can get OM on board with his wife and estabish a situtation where he would not seek visitation or contact in any way with your family,(long deal with lawyers involved), then I don't see a problem morally or MB policywise. Any attempt to get a fast cash result to help you with your son in trouble may make sense to you as far as your budget and money problems, (past and present), but it just can't be justified to be done immediatly like you have been expressing.

If the intentions were expressed to OM or lawyers, it would be just seen as you are bad parents and it could result in the loss of your little girl, especially if OMs new wife , family, or lawyers are of a mindset to try to take her.

Do you see what I am saying?

If you want support for little girl, I would find some good legal advice, and be sure to cover your backside.

So what is the lawyers excuse? Why was he not there? What are his plans?.

I pray retread can get you some help with publishing. But I would shovel cowdung if i had to to fight this little wench and her halfaZZ coke dealing parentege. I would be proud to shovel it and thank God for the opportunity to. There are no small jobs, just small people.

Hang in there writer, and tell your H we are all pulling for you guys.

Prayers going out, can't wait to hear what this lawyer says, hope my blood pressure holds out.

Some idiot Kid killed/shot a mockingbird at my daughters house. His stepfather came over and told them when they came home, all bragging and excited. "you don't have to worry about that bird anymore"

Geez he is lucky i wasn't there. Remember that line from the movie? "Its a sin to kill a mockingbird, they never hurt anybody"

Are we going backwards?


BTW Loved the spirit in this post Luri

Don't worry...Boo Radley will come after them

I am tired and exasperated, but I will try to give at least a little update on the meeting with the lawyer.

He wants to avoid going to trial if possible. He said our chances don't look good if we go to trial because of the email evidence that the girl has. Now, the emails have not been verified, and our lawyer doesn't want them to be. If they could somehow be traced to my son, we would have no hope of avoiding prison. Basically, in a plea bargain, we're probably looking at probation, community service, and perhaps a short (30-60 day) stay in juvenile hall or county jail. Anything more than that, he doesn't recommend accepting. If we go to trial and lose (basically, if the judge takes the girl's word over our son's, which often happens) he would be looking at 2 years in prison, 4 years probation, and having to register as a sex offender. A plea bargain would prevent anything from going on his permanent record (since it is a juvenile case, it will be sealed, and technically doesn't count as a conviction - not sure if I got that right, but something along those lines). I'm sure I'm messing everything up, but my brain is fried. We should know in a few days if the DA is willing to bargain.

Any thoughts on going to trial vs. plea bargain? Our lawyer is strongly recommending we do not go to trial if at all possible. He isn't optimistic about our chances in a trial.

Any chance that you can get another opinion or two from a lawyer?

Honestly, I'd probably do a plea bargain.

I don't think that you are off base about his life being severely harmed with being labeled a sex offender. In our city, there was a story once done about men who were legal and had consentual sex with minor girls. Not one of the men profiled was able to get a chance in life. Meaning, they were in half way houses working minimum wage jobs when given the chance to work.

I was reading on Megan's law (I was curious, and my husband is a recovering sa. So, I like to know a bit about what happens to sex offenders, since this could very well touch my life). It seems as if your son goes to trial is convicted and is labeled a sex offender, he could apply for a rehab certificate 7-10 years after probation has been complete. If he gets the rehab certificate, it looks like then he would no longer be labeled a sex offender. Best case, your son could try to put his life together when he got to his 30's.

I guess I'd also take into consideration what your son's goals are..Does he want to go to college? 4 year? 2 year? Does he want to be a professional electrician or painter? If your son is looking at a trade, he doesn't need a college degree, and might be able to find people who are more willing to give him a chance. Then, maybe I'd roll the die and take it to trial.

Does your son think he might want to get married and have kids? That's something that would sway me one way or the other. I'm supposing not too many parents would set up play dates with a child whose dad is a registered sex offender, no matter the reasons why the dad was given that label.

Writer - have you checked into a mortgage modification due to your severe loss of income?

Have you talked with your bishop and asked for help?

If you are desperate enough to break NC with OM, you need to get yourself back to church and humbling yourself enough to seek help!

I probably could get a second opinion, but a free consultation would not involve an attorney that would be able to look at all of the evidence and everything that is going on in the case. If I wanted another attorney to take that thorough of a look at the case, I would almost certainly have to pay him. I just can't afford to pay another attorney.

Kayla: We have gone to the Bishop's Storehouse in the past. We could do that again, and it would help some with food. The church doesn't help with mortgage payments, so there's not much that can be done as far as the house is concerned. We have looked into mortgage modification, a number of months ago in fact, but the process is so painfully slow and nothing much has happened with is so far. They just aren't easy to get.

If you're going to be foreclosed on anyway you might as well start the process of modification. It only took 45 days for me to get a modification qualifying period started - 3 months, paying on time, lower payment, obtain the final documents about three weeks later, sign and fedex back, and another three months of paying the qualifying payment while fielding foreclosure notices before you get an updated mortgage contract.

You might as well take action instead of being paralyzed by the current situation. A month from now will come regardless of whether or not you have an application in process.

Get it going!

Writer - is there a Ward Employment specialist in your ward? Perhaps you can look and see if there is and see if they have options as far as finding work. If not for you, then for your boys.

I'm sorry things are going so rough. I'm prayin' for you, hon.

Writer-I'd say the plea bargain looks pretty good at this point. Also, I think you NEED to put your DS16 and DS18 to work right away. EVERYONE needs to chip in. Your DS18 can help you or your husband mow lawns, or he can babysit (especially after the plea bargain allows him home alone) so that you can work. It seems like with the exception of your DD, you've got some free-loaders around the house. And their IDLENESS is what's getting them into trouble.
They need to step up and be a part of the solution, not just a part of the problem.

It's hard to tell somebody they're taking the easy way out, especially when life is so hard on them. But writer - that's what you're doing.

You've got to find your "can do" spirit instead of finding another way you "can't do".

You've got to. Now. Life's going to go on way too long for you do make things worse by bringing OM into your little girl's life, no matter what the reason is.

There is work that can be done from home. My mother works for 1-800 flowers and several different call centers from home. If you're stuck home with your son and baby, let him watch the baby and see if you can do some from home work.

There's also transcription and other from home work options.

I used to do the call center stuff from home. It's not much, but it's a paycheck - if you speak spanish it's even better.

Seriously, if you want some information my email address is in my profile, just email me and I'll see if I can give you some leads.

Where, doing what?

Is your husband off on the weekends?

Children have a lot of energy. They can use that energy to get into trouble, to accidently hang around toxic friends, to be influenced by bad stuff, to get into drugs, or to become criminals.

On the other hand, if properly directed, that energy they have can be focused and targeted in order for the child to become productive, to study, to work and to have normal decent friendships.

I can see these kids had way too much time on thier hands. Perhaps you were busy with the baby and saving your marriage to direct these kids into jobs, school, etc.

But now is the time, before your whole family is trashed, to salvage these two kids, the one who had sex with a 16 year old, and the other one into pot and drugs....

YOU CAN SALVAGE THE REST OF THIER LIVES BY DIRECTING THEM INTO WORK AND OTHER THINGS TO HELP OUT THE FAMILY AND THEMSELVES.

If you are not willing to redirect the energies of your children, thier lives will be ruined.

Just wanted to pop in and say you are in my thoughts.

Bookstores, and various jobs in the field of education. Those are the areas where I have the most experience. I worked retail for 5 years and in education for 7. Retail just doesn't pay much and education is doing very crappy in CA with all of the massive budget cuts and teacher layoffs.

www.agentquery.com

Get moving, Ms. Fifty Drafts.

What in the heck are you waiting for???

Bubbles, my 18 year old is a good kid. Yes, he made a mistake by deciding to become sexually active. But he wasn't just sitting around with a lot of time on his hands. He was going to school at the time and doing well. He was actively involved in various activities with church. He wasn't working, but that's because it was his senior year in high school and he so much else going on. He wants to get a job now, but he cannot until we settle this court case. Ultimately, he wants to go to culinary school and become a pastry chef. He's already looked at a number of programs in our area, but there's not much he can do until we find out if he's going to jail or not. Other than this one incident, he has literally never had a single discipline or behavior problem in his life. He has always been my most easy-going, cooperative, hard-working kid.

As for the 16 year old, he has had bad behavioral problems since the age of 2, so I don't think it's just a case of having too much time on his hands. He has been diagnosed with ADHD, though I strongly suspect there is more going on than just that. He's been on several different medications over the years, but none really seem to help. Really, he is the only one of my 5 kids to have long term behavioral issues. Currently, he is involved in a youth program where he has to do community service, sit on a "jury" for youth cases, take a "Scared Straight" type of tour of a local jail, and attend drug rehab classes. He is also actively trying to get into a military program where he would have the opportunity to make up some of the school credits he is behind on.

Please don't think that I am not actively involved in helping all of my children. Yes, the baby keeps me busy, but I do not neglect the needs of my other kids.

I've heard of this site. Thanks for the link.

I'm a perfectionist. I really don't want to send it out until it's ready. It's hard to sell a first novel right now. As with everything else, the publishing industry has suffered due to the recession. Hopefully, things will start to pick up soon.

Luri: Thanks. I appreciate it. Still waiting.

On a positive note, I went to the doctor today and discovered that I actually weigh 6 lbs. less than I thought I did. Apparently, my home scale isn't calibrated correctly. It looks like I am now back to my pre-baby weight. I probably have been for awhile and I just didn't know it. I think I should treat myself to a nice hot fudge sundae to celebrate.

Congrats on the weight loss, remember stress will do that too, so don't get carried away!

I would go to trial.

I would get the Lie Detector test done.

I would quit trying to make others pay for your mistakes. (Blackmailing OM for CS)

Your life is crazy right now. Someone has in thier signature: "You can choose the actions, but you can't choose the consequences."

Action: Have an Affair.
Consequence: An OC
Consequence: Can't work
Consequence: No Dollars in the house.

Action: Son has SF with GF
Consequence: She is a whack job
Consequence: Thousands in court costs.
Consequence: Possible Sex Offender registry.

Action: No Lie Detector test.
Consequence: The court system grinds away, and you can't afford it.
Consequence: If your son passes the test, MAYBE, the prosecuter drops the case...
Consequence: If your son DOESN'T pass the test, then you go for the Plea Bargain and close this chapter as quick as possible.

Action: No boundaries in the household
Consequence: A drug addict son, who refuses to help AT ALL around the house. At a most dire time in the families existence.
Consequence: Charges against the "good son"
Consequence: Kids who travel away from the home and don't want to come back.

Sorry, writer, when you stated you needed to hit up the OM for lawyer money, that just pushed me over the edge...

It was another desperate move, illogical and in keeping with the past. MB is about responsibility.

It would be a responsible act to file for the loan modification program. But you don't.

It may take a number of months to get approval, but the clock does NOT start until you apply. The bank DOES NOT want your house. But your family has to do the work to save it. I have seen this process be a life saver for several of my clients...

Your son might go to jail. You might lose the house. One of these actions you can proactively prevent. And one you could have if you spent $4-500 dollars.

But no.

I know that you are living on a shoe string. And its a SMALL SHOE. I have lived the same, the electric and the natural gas have been turned off on us when I was younger. But my brother and I delivered newspapers, and my sister worked at Burger King when she was 16. When we got our drivers licenses, out we went to other higher paying jobs.... And we gave the $$$ to my Mom to help out. Not all of it, but some. But it lightened her load...

BTW: Has you husband ever followed up on those anger management classes?

This all sucks for you. You don't have to live this way. You just have to claw your way out of these behaviors....to a better way of doing things. MB can help. Its NOT just about the marriage, really.

LG

It is no harder to sell a first novel than it is to sell a second novel. It is no harder now to sell a first novel than it was years ago.

It has to be good.

It does not have to be perfect.

It only has to be good.

After 50 drafts, it is either good or not. Send the queries. Send the MS. WHAT do you have to lose???

LG:

I probably can't answer all of this with a baby crawling on me, but I'll try to cover what I can.

Our attorney doesn't want us to do the lie detector (or verify the emails) because he is afraid that if any of the results come back negatively, we will lose our ability to plea bargain. He doesn't want to go to trial either, because if we lose, my son goes to prison and becomes a registered sex offender for sure. I don't want to go to trial either, because I just CAN'T come up with another $5000 without resorting to drastic means that no one seems to approve of.

I wish I could get my grown kids to want to leave the house and not come back. Not been a problem so far. All but one is currently living at home, and she would be here too if she hadn't gotten the job in Alaska.

My 16 year old "drug addict" son has been clean for 2 months now and is following the program he is on. He does the same chores around the house as the other kids. He always has. They have assigned chores (dishes, trash, yard work).

I agree with all of the consequences of my A. I take responsibility for that. I always have. But, as our financial woes continue to mount, I have had a difficult time accepting the fact that the OM doesn't have to suffer any of those consequences, even though his actions were exactly the same as mine. I'm sorry, but that pushes my "No Fair" button. Right or wrong, it does. He still has a job, he hasn't had to pay a penny for his actions. He hasn't even had to tell anyone that he actually created a child he decided to take no responsibility for. The long list of deadbeat dads in my life (my own included) has left me feeling very bitter about the fact that it always seems to be the women who end up paying for these types of mistakes, while the men just get to walk away.

We did apply for the mortgage modification. I thought I said that before. It just hasn't gone through yet.

No, my H hasn't followed up with the anger management. I'm not really pushing it right now because we really have too much going on right now, and sometimes, you just can't deal with everything at once. But there have been no further outbursts or problems. We will deal with it, but I just can't take on anymore right now. My H has his problems (don't we all) but he is a good person. Not perfect, but far better than most of the men in my life. He's still here. He gets up everyday at 4:30 a.m. and goes to a job he doesn't really like just to put food on the table. He tries everyday to be the best person that he can be. He may not succeed everyday, but neither do I. Right now, it's enough for me to know that he is trying.

Lousygolfer-excellent post, and it's clear you care because of the time you put into collecting your thoughts.
Writer, when I was younger, between the ages of 12 and 16, I was too young for a work permit, but my family was deperately poor.
I did so many things to help make money for the family. I raked the yards of my neighbors (didn't have a lawnmower). I did gardenwork for the old ladies on the block. I ran errands for people. Heck, I even mended clothing, like sewing on buttons for a quarter each.
The point is, I knew the family was in trouble, and I knew everyone needed to contribute. It's easy to say that your DS16 ws "bad" since the age of two, but honestly, it's time for some tough love. My DS9 is a PITA ..MOST of the time. But I don't let up or give up on demanding that he behave appropriately.
Now, I don't have a baby to care for, so I'm able to be more persistent and consistent, but now is the time for you to demand that he man-up on behalf of his family.
And back to LousyGolfer's comment--did your H ever follow through on that anger management or is that pot about to bubble over again? Come on, lady!! We're with you on this--trying to help you hold EVERYONE'S feet to the fire. You can't do this yourself--everyone has to chip in.
Let's get away from shoulda-coulda-woulda thinking and get to what we can do NOW. Get everyone to step up and man up.

Writer, I will congratulate you on the weight loss ONLY because I like you and because you need a happy moment. But on the inside I am insanely jealous and would like to hit you. Ha ha. Fine....I guess I'll have to go to Lane Bryant by myself.

Send that manuscript to everyone you can think of, even if you did forget to dot an i on page 237. Write a general query letter and tailor it to fit different places. And remember that Stephen King got about 50 rejections before he published, so if someone says no...it's their loss!

I feel for you about your kids. My brother and I were raised in the same household. I was the good girl who sang in church and did her chores. J drank and got sent home from church camp for vodka and sold drugs and had secret trysts on band trips with other guys. We were raised THE SAME....so I don't think anyone can say it was our parents' fault. Then again, I grew up, got married, and had an A 12 years later. THAT wasn't my parents' fault either.

Prior to July 21, 2010, you have been imperfect and made some bad choices. But starting today, things can get better. Nobody can change the past. And maybe nobody can take away the consequences of the past. But if you're like me, nothing good is going to come of taking out all of your failures and dissecting them either.

So eat the ice cream sundae, send off that novel, and make your kids do the laundry.

I'll be back later to take up an offering to go with that sermon...no cash, just chocolate,

I agree with all of the consequences of my A. I take responsibility for that. I always have. But, as our financial woes continue to mount, I have had a difficult time accepting the fact that the OM doesn't have to suffer any of those consequences, even though his actions were exactly the same as mine. I'm sorry, but that pushes my "No Fair" button. Right or wrong, it does. He still has a job, he hasn't had to pay a penny for his actions. He hasn't even had to tell anyone that he actually created a child he decided to take no responsibility for. The long list of deadbeat dads in my life (my own included) has left me feeling very bitter about the fact that it always seems to be the women who end up paying for these types of mistakes, while the men just get to walk away.


Hey, the woman do not have to pay for these kinds of mistakes IF they do not have affairs or IF when having an affair, (or having any kind of sex) they use proper birth control.

Who wanted the baby? Who failed to use birth control? Who failed to get an abortion?

Who wanted the baby? Before conception - neither. After, both for a time.

Who failed to use birth control: Both.

Who failed to get an abortion: I hardly think becoming a murderer would have made the situation any better.

Next time you have sex, use good birth control.

Writer:

Then send a letter to all of OM friends and family and TELL THEM what he did.

You should not suffer, and he skate.

He might just say he wants to see the child once a week and every other weekend. Are you ready for that?

Do you think that the anger management classes, had your husband started to go, would help, when some of the things that are coming up, start to hit? HE NEEDS TO DO THIS.

I would get the Lie detector test, or analyse the emails, and NOT reveal the results to the attorney, since he is so scared of them, but if they HELP exonerate your son, WHY NOT?

Many pleaa bargains are settled two days before the trial. Becasue the judge doesn't look kindly to a jury being called, and then having the legal teams state that there has been a "bargain"

If your son is innocent, then fight as much as you can. If he is innocent, he can get a job the next day after the trial and pay everyone back. Like HIS LAWYER at $500 a month.

Your Lawyer appears to be motivated by the lack of funds, and not by the lack of evidence.

I think a jury can look through the rantings of a spiteful young lady, and see a thoughtful young man. If this IS the case. Princess'es sometimes don't understand that people do not ALWAYS believe them....

LG

B4U: I thought I was being harsh, but this is a little over the top...

Well, considering the fact that I only plan on having sex with my H for the rest of my life, and he had a vasectomy 12 years ago, I think that's covered.

LG: OM lives 3000 miles away. I don't think he'll be able to see the baby once a week or every other weekend, unless he decides to move clear across the country.

We are going to look into the anger management as soon as possible. As I said, things have been going okay on that front.

We could do the lie detector test without our attorney's knowledge, but we can't have the emails analyzed. The computer has been in police custody for the past 4 months. We have no access to it. Our attorney would have to go through the court to get access to it, and there's no way to do that without the DA and the judge having access to the findings.

I'm planning on having my son pay back the attorney fees once this is over and he can get a job. We've already talked about it.

It's a juvenile case, so it would not be a jury trial. A single judge would decide his guilt or innocence, and the same judge would decide on his sentence if my son was found guilty. Juveniles do not have the same rights as adults under the law. I don't agree with that, but it is what it is.

Sorry. was harsh. It is an irritating issue for me, the failure of people to use BC and then accidently bringing innocent kids into the world.

It hurts everyone.

What about supermarkets?
Department stores?
Restaurants?
Local Govt?
Shipping?
Delivering Pizza's?

Pick up the paper and apply to every job in it until you land one. Stop waiting for an opening in that one narrow feild and take what you can get!

HELLO????

Your husband did not just walk away when you poped out someone else's kid did he?

From my point of view the person paying fore "This type of mistake" is your husband, NOT you.

So drop the victim routine.



Now,...
I missed it, what is the child actually accused of?
What do you believe are on these e-mails that "May" be evidence?
Is a lie detector admissible in this case?

Gack: In this thread, I have expressed many times that my H is the one paying for all of this when he shouldn't have to. I realize he is the real victim in this situation. That's what makes me angry. And I am completely grateful that my H didn't just walk away. He really is one of the few decent guys I've known in my life. I am thankful for that everyday.

As far as jobs go, the area where I live is fairly rural. Most of the jobs (when you can find anything at all) pay minimum wage. Unfortunately, the daycare centers charge more than minimum wage, so that doesn't work. My H has to drive 50+ miles to get to his job. That's what most people who live out here do. But it just doesn't work with both of us doing that. I don't have a car that would drive that far, not for more than a few weeks. Unemployment here is really bad. We've been on many of the national lists for worst job markets, worst housing market, slowest recovery.

I used to work nights and weekends, and it was very hard on our marriage. My H is already gone over 12 hours a day, so really, we only see each other for any length of time on the weekends. I don't want to take a job that would basically make it so that we never spend any time together. Solving our financial problems while destroying our marriage doesn't seem like a good solution. And even that type of job would be hard to find here. The economy is very depressed. Lots of stores here are simply going out of business. The ones that are still open aren't hiring.

My son has been accused of rape by a former girlfriend. She has 3 pages of IM's where he admits to raping her. My son claims he didn't write them. The DA has not analyzed the IM's, but is just taking the girl's word that they are real. My attorney feels that it is too much of a risk to have the IM's analyzed, because if they do turn out to be real, it would be very bad for our case. I know my son, and many of the IM's do not sound like him at all, but the attorney still doesn't want to take the chance. He's pretty confident that he can reach a plea bargain that will not send my son to prison and will not make him have to register as a sex offender. He believes that if we go to trial, our chances do not look good. In cases of rape, even without the emails, the judge simply has to believe the victim over the accused, and that is enough for a guilty verdict, even with no evidence. It is a huge gamble to go to trial, and my attorney isn't comfortable taking that sort of risk. Neither am I. And no, a lie detector test would not be admissible.

"The bank DOES NOT want your house. But your family has to do the work to save it." - per lousy golfer

Hi Writer,

Believe it or not I still don't know how to create the exclusive quotes, but anyway the above opinion is exactly correct. Also, I believe it is still possible to pay the interest portion only and not the principal portion for a specified period of time and with agreement of the lendor. Most mortgages have been sold and resold several times, especially the troubled ones, and in this economy the end deal creditor is usually willing to make a deal, within reason.

I don't have much in way of suggestions for you at this time. I just wanted to tell you that you have been getting tons of good advice here and you seem to be a little less desparate now than you seemed other day, even tho I know you are exasperated. One suggestion is that after my W taught 4th grade for 7 years and felt she needed to resign due to the stress, she got a contract to edit text book drafts at home. This was well before the Internet (back in late 70s) but I still think these positions are available.

I think the most important question right now is what does your son want to do. If he is age 18, he is the one who should be making this decision about his current situation, and the risks that may affect his future. He is old enough to vote, enlist, and put his life on the line in combat. I hear your love and concern about your son, but I think you need to step back and take this burden off your shoulders now, and with a comforting and advisory role as his mom, present the situation and the risks to your son (bench trial vs. bargain) and let him make his decision. I say that because if your attorney has advised you of Not going to trial, your son may really be guilty of the charges. I am not trying to dispute with you or get you down Writer, just trying to be realistic with you and to make sure you know I am concerned about your welfare.

Please relax, watch the batchlorette or some other silly program tonight to help you laugh, and then just get a good nites sleep. Prayers.

Tom

You have no family that can help?
You have no friends that can help?
There are no charities that can help?

If he did write them, make the plea bargain.

If he did not, take it to trial!

Just explain to him that if he DID write them and you go to trial, he will go to jail.

This is not necessarily true!

I believe it WILL end up being her son's word against the girls in the end. Writer, I understand your attorney NOT wanting to analyze the IMs because he can probably keep them out as hearsay. Otherwise, the DA would have to technically "prove" that they came from your son. I agree with your attorney about this. That's why I don't understand his unwillingness to take this to trial, what else is there in the way of evidence? Have you see the state's discovery?

Regardless, if son is convicted either through plea agreement or by finding of the court, I don't believe the punishment will be very harsh because he's a 1st time offender and basically a good kid. (Caveat: unless the Judge decides to "teach" Writer's son a lesson.)

Our attorney said that usually, in the case of a conviction, the judge goes along with the recommended punishment from the Probation department. In our case, that was 2 years in prison and 4 years probation, plus having to register as a sex offender. In other words, his life is over. Yes, it probably will be he said/she said. So, we have a 50/50 chance. That's a huge gamble to take with someone's life.

Our attorney thinks he can get a plea bargain that will probably involve some sort of jail/juvenile hall time (not prison). He said he is going to try for no more than 30-60 days, plus probation and community service. It's a juvenile case, so the records would be sealed. My son would not have a felony on his record and would not have to register as a sex offender.

Would I rather see him completely cleared of all charges and found innocent at a trial? Yes. YES! YES! YES! However, our attorney has many years experience in criminal law and I do not, so I'm going to trust that he has our best interests in mind. I would never forgive myself if we went to trial, lost, and my son's life was forever ruined.

Ok, heres my two cents,

First of all, a question. How did your lawyer act when you asked him what was the reason he didn't show that day? Was he REALLY sorry? Did he convince you he was at least? I hope he was at least that smart enough to know you needed him to, and that good of a talker to make you believe him, whether he was or not.

But onto other things, I will also say how it is true that the bank does not want your house, but you have filed and understand that.

Your husband most definatly deserves the credit for attempting to be responsible and supporting his family, does he still realize that it sometimes is a thankless job? The boys don't seem to be helping this much, which might be adding to his stress. Now when he gets pushed into these corners and he blows up, he makes things worse. THATS why he needs the anger management classes. He probably thinks its about him getting more pressure, but its about the proper way to handle stress. Him trying to bear the load for everyone and then getting disrespected is not the goal. Its about his learning that and many other things to keep him from losing his cool. Let him know that it is OK to get angry about what he is going thru, but not OK to lash out at others who either don't have a clue about his sacrifice, or are just to selfish to care. Also he is probably blowing up and taking it all out on one person when this happens. He needs to make those responsible be accountable for the things they did, and manage his stress. Not just suck it all up. In the end he still will have to let some things go, because children don't appreciate things like we want them to.

Ok enough about that, Now about that law suit.

The Plea bargain seems like par for the course for the legal system. To get the system to work hard enough to clear your son you will have to spend enough money to do it, or they will have to want to do it because there is some other benifet to them in it. I wouldn't count on them wanting to see truth served as the motive unless you think they will understand why your son had sex with this dumb girl. Do you? Then don't expect to sell them a story that your son is a poor victim here. If right and wrong are the motivation for seeking justice and you want to count on thier rightious indignance to prove that the prinecess wench is a manipulative liar, than the indignance just might extend towards your son sleeping with her too.

If this lawyer is really sure that he can get the plea bargain with the terms you mentioned then it is probably the best bet. It is important that he can get this done. I am leary on his maybes.

I would still get the lie detector test, I would still get the IMs verified. I would have this done privately and only if the results were positive would I make them known to the lawyer and/or court. Then any positive results I would use to light a fire under the Lawyers feet. Seek counsel on how you can get the IMs verified outside of a court order, it will probably be more reliable, and yes it will cost money. I am sure there is services that will do it for you, and if you really believe that your son did not send them, it will be the evidence that can win a court case. So get moving!

So do your boys appreciate what your husband is doing for them? It seems like they think hes a boob or a fool for working so hard and they are working some angle. Just know that an attitude can be developed in desparate neiborhoods especially in children who are surrounded by thugs and drugs. I am not picking on them as much as it is my observation,(and experience), and maybe moving to Luris neck of the woods or something similar might be a good idea for the future. Sometimes people need a fresh start. I'm not confident you should be trying to change the enviroment you live in, thats the politicians job, and they want money too.

As far as your son who has the drug issue and is on probation, I hope he is learning from this, and not getting more of the attitude of,"See, the cops and law are all just scam artists and crooked". Some may be, but it is peoples choices that give them thier job, you reap what you sow.

I beleive your whole family needs help in dealing with issues. I am sure you are trying but with the attitude everybody but you and your husband have its no wonder he is stressed out and things are crumbling. You must take care of You and your H first and no amount of Money will fix some problems. I know thats hard to hear writer but if bitterness and resentment continue to take its toll on your familys attitude and steal your hope it will just get worse.

Get into some family counseling and make those kids tow the line, respect what you are trying to build, and get behind you and your H. My heart truly goes out to you and your struggles.

I would like to tell you this long story comparing how my life as a young man sucked and how I had a lot of circumstances and an enviroment that was dragging me down too, but my experiance with that is people think thier different and how thier life is worse so they just brush it off. I think once this is settled you should move away from the enviroment and the people who seems to be influencing your Husband, You, and your children. Get some counselling for them all, and some distance from all this. Then there will be no reasons,(or excuses), for them all to screw up or blame the world for thier problems. It could be an eye-opener for them and an opportunity for a better life.

Some people just need to get away from adversity cuz they can't handle fighting all the demons. Theres no shame in admitting that, we wern't supposed to fight them anyway, just avoid them. Let God handle them.

Something I wanted to add to your knowledge base writer. Peoples brains do not fully develop in the Prefrontal-cortex,(the part responsible for reasoning and good choices), untill they reach 25 years old.

Something that might help your H when he tries to understand why these boys don't use thier heads. They can't, but don't mistake it thats no excuse for not respecting your parents and following the rules/law.

Kids are just pressured into growing up when they don't have any idea what that means really, and they are so looking for approval from anyone, and they wont admit they need help, are confused, and not as adult as they think they are.

Imagine, why do 18 year olds have the ability to put themselves into debt? What is the percentage of those that do learning about finances and benifiting compared to those who owe thousands of $ for years for stupid purchases? Think about it, was it designed to help them or take advantage of them?

Thats what i would have done too, after I greased him with 5G and all he had to do was enter a plea. After he didn't show I wondered though, and I have to admit, the Lie detector test and possibility of finding out hose Ims were bogus is just so tempting.

Remember, any evidence they present that can be refuted helps you. The Lie detector test is not admissable, The He said She said and the possibility of the court believing her version, ( she might just be crazy enough to belive her own lies, crazy people can be very convincing liars), is to dangerous.

But this evidence of the IMs is the only refutable thing they are bringing to bear against your son, and it could be the angle you can use to make sure he gets the plea deal that the lawyer is selling. Remember how I said you should hold his feet to the fire? Also, when it comes down to the time when the plea is on the table, it would be better if you knew thier evidence is bogus before hand, and you would be better prepared to decide whether to take the plea or fight. I wouldn't show your hand untill court though, there is a chance that this is all they have, and they might not use it if they know you can beat it. You will want them to use it if you can beat it. It will prove that they are lieing.

In the end the plea is cheaper, and though money should be no object to clear his name he has no record when it is all said and done. The small amount of time he has to serve should help him learn about how to stay away from little wild ones.

I am not sure what will show up in the future if he goes to trial, even if he is proven innocent of the threats. He still might have to publicly deal with the fact he slept with " lieing wench-princess of the duke of coke-dealer". Once it hits the dockets it becomes even more visable and might show up somewhere in the future.


Writer, It seems to me your lawyer has doubts that your son is innocent or he would have the IMs investigated, or he doesn't think its worth the expense when he can,(maybe), get a plea deal and avoid a trial you can't afford.

You on the other hand, have this opportunnity to find out that the evidence of the IMs is false, (or true if you are wrong), and it will make this all more clear in your head whether to fight it, or whether you are lucky to get whatever you can in a plea deal. Please investigate this for the sake of your exploring all options for your son, and of course your consciences sake.

Ok, does anybody think this makes sense? Can I get some feedback on this suggestion? Should They get the LD Test and the IMs investigated privately? To cement thier conviction that the boy has not done what he is accused of and use this if nessesary to make the plea details go thru or take it to trial?

PLease don't tell me you can't afford it. We have beaten that horse to death.

That won't happen because he's a juvenile and the records will be sealed FOREVER.


I think you're right about the attorney but not for the reasons you stated. I don't think the attorney cares one way or the other if her son is innocent, what's important is whether he thinks he can win.

The IMs probably CAN be analyzed and it WOULD be expensive, however, I don't believe they would be admissible at all because they are HEARSAY under the Rules.

I agree that she should get a private polygraph if at all possible and keep any unfavorable results quiet, however, analyzing the IMs would be a waste of time and $$.

I'd be willing to bet the plea offer is already on the table and the attorney is stretching it out until the last minute ($$) especially if Writer has mentioned wondering where all the retainer $$ has gone.

Really, geez..

I thought it would be admissible. Well what CAN be challanged?

Was the IMs part of thier case against her son? Were they going to use them? Why did the lawyer bring thenm up in the first place?

Im going back and read it so I can understand it better

The thing is, we can't have the IM's analyzed without the DA knowing about it. THEY have his computer. We don't have any access to it all. We can't get it back unless the judge orders it. Our attorney could request to have them analyzed, but the DA would require him to turn over the results if he did it.

So let me get this strait.

The D.A (Prosecutor) has your son's computer.
The computer that has the I.M. logs on it.

You're lawyer is telling you that as long as you don't ask to have the logs analyzed, the D.A. will never know about it?

Ummmm....

Does this sound silly to anyone else, or am I just not understanding how Law and Prosecution works?

The DA knows about the IM's. The girl gave them a printout of them when she filed the charges. The DA is just accepting her word at face value that they are real. So far, they haven't actually gone onto my son's computer to verify this one way or the other.

This is her first post about them and it doesn't explain why or if the emails could be verified independantly. It implies that in order to be verified, everyone would know about it. I don't know if thats true, and I doubt that it is. Maybe thats wrong but I am pretty sure there is some agency that can verify them discreetly, because I am sure that it is a security measure done to protect other people outside of legal actions.


Again the reference that Lie detector or email verifications will become automatic public knowledge. This is what leads me to belive its about money, because if court ordered verifications are cheaper or free for the defendant,because they allready have the computer in thier posession, then that would be the only explaination of how they become such knowledge to the court and can hurt them. I can't beleive that the lawyer would pay to get these done by an outside source, and then hand them to the DA when it will hurt his client.

Again Money and the disscussion of how expensive it will be..

Just something LG said that brings to mind not only the advice I also believed, but points out that when the plea gets offered, you better be ready to decide then what you are going to do.
So now I understand why he said this, but what I don"t know for sure is whether his email activity can be traced from his end. If he uses an email provider that can do this or not, or if there are ways to get this looked into by an outside source. I'll bet he wrote her angry emails, and suggestive ones, and he can't remember what he said. If what little wench is saying is that the emails are proof that he raped and threatened her, then what harm would it be if Writer found out exactly what they say by looking into this from her sons email client.?

Why not look into thier gun and see if its loaded?Here she talks about IMs too. You can set your instant messenger to log your convos. She also mentions those being analyised. Im am sure the little girl has printed those out after she set it to log and agravated her son into arguements with her to set him up. Many IM programs keep records on the server for quite some time and are available at a cost, (go figure). Writer can look into this herself too, and the records will be hers to do with what she wishs.

Again is this gun really loaded? How deadly are the bullits?

Even without the emails.. OK im spliting hairs here, but is there emails AND Ims? But beyond that, is the DA going to use them? If so, and I imagine they prove some threat or we would not be talking about them, knowledge of what exactly they say can work for her son either in difusing the wild acusations the girl has made by proving them false or benign, or taking any plea and being happy with it because they are proven to be just what she is accusing him of. This knowledge is power and will make it clear.

If he doesn't use the Emails and IMs, because the girl has embellished thier toxicity, Writers lawyer can use them to show how he was not what she paints him out to be.

Right now they are scary ghosts and they have no idea what they are.
Point that I was going to make too. As Tom said too , he is legally an adult and he should be ready to face the consequences and make the choice. If he is innocent and worrys about what can be proven versus the truth, it is up to him to choose the plea or the trial. The IMs/Emails are a scary variable because he says they are false, verification that can be brought up in a trial either way would help him make that choice.
This is reasonable advice IMO but even you wondered about why they were reluctant to go to trial Meggy. This fueled my resolve to push this too. Because the evidence or lack of? If thier evidence is ruled as hearsay, then it comes down to her word against his, then evidence of her character oppossed to his can be brought up?

If the DA does not use the Email/Ims becuase they are bogus then can Sons lawyer use them to prove his innocence or at least evidence that he was being goaded into this situation? What about her original threats towards him when she found out he was seeing a new girl? If Writer had all of the IMs and Emails instead of just the ones that help the girls case, wouldn't that help? It might make a more well rounded picture of what happened. Without all the Ims and Emails the wench can paint half a picture, and if they bring them up in any way, can't writers lawyer use them?

So thats what I was thinking about anyway

What makes you believe they wont?

Does this girl or her family have any history of trouble?

Lol your probably right on this. I have probably spent more time on this than he has, and am more concerned

Gack. As far as i remember you have to set up IM to log your convos. I used to do this for my kids.

The girl obviuosly did this before she goaded the boy into rage. But I bet she didn't print out everything and just gave the DA what would help her.

Writers son might not have records of IMs on his comp.

He might have email signature info there and copies of that activity tho

Her family are POS from what Writer said before. Her son talked about there drug use while he was there I believe.

Daddy was slick and used to deal coke when he was a truck driver but never got caught.

I mentioned bringing this up in court but got no response, I don't know if it would help, Writer has made no comment about my question of what the lawyer said about it.

Right now, I am just waiting to hear back from the lawyer about the plea bargain. He is hoping to hear something back from the DA by Friday. We are going to hold off on making a decision about anything else until then. My son has expressed a desire to take the plea bargain as long as it isn't something that will go on his permanent record, send him to prison, or make him register as a sex offender. Those are deal breakers for us.

Our attorney is reluctant to go to trial regardless of the IM's. He said it is very risky to put ourselves in a situation where the girl is able to take the stand and turn on the water works and tell her story, and I have already seen from our court appearances so far that she is very good at bringing out the drama. Our attorney has seen cases of he said/she said that had absolutely no evidence and the man was still convicted simply on the word of the victim. I'm hoping we don't have to take that chance, but we will know in a few days.

CP: Just some clarification. She printed the IM's from her computer. She had her Instant Messenger set to save conversations. My son did not. He also cancelled his Instant Messenger after they broke up (but long before she filed these charges) because she kept trying to contact him through it and he didn't want to have anything to do with her. We do have some emails she sent him in February (2 months after the alleged rape) telling him how much she missed him and cared about him and still wanted to get back together with him.

Gack: The father admitted to my son that he used to deal cocaine when he was a truck driver. But he never got caught, so he doesn't have a record. Her brother is apparently a drug dealer now. My son saw the paraphernalia when he was over at her house. The brother used to live with them, but I don't think he does anymore. That's all I know.

CP: I asked our lawyer about bringing up the family's history of involvement with drugs, but he said it wouldn't help because they don't actually have any convictions.

I thought that writer said if it goes to trial and he loses, then it will mean all kinds of exposure for him, but if the plea bargain goes thru, it will be sealed.

I was thinking along the lines that if they didn't take or make the plea bargain, there was no gaurantee that it would be sealed.

There was some talk a way back about whether it was going to be statitory rape or not and it depended on the age difference of the two at the time. It was a while ago so I will look it up. What I will guess is that if it was not found to be that then he would be charged as a minor. Let me quote that; BBS

Ah Bummer for ya.

That californian lingo isn't it?

As a juvenile, his records may be sealed even if we go to trial and lose. However, he will in all likelihood have to register as a sex offender if that happens, and that will definitely be public knowledge. His picture, name, address, crime, etc. will be published on the Megan's Law website for all the world to see.

Only if you use too much bleach on your hair.

Ran into this..Mr Wondering is sly

Stuff like this makes me think there must be SOMETHING out there a lawyer can use

which of couse sucks cuz your lawyer wants to settle

This is just some of the stuff i found looking back, plus the stuff about photoshopped pictures and the little wench putting crap all over the internet. I can't believe that all this inadmissible if it goes to court. Did you ever get the restrainig order agaist them for the threats her father made against your son?

Ok here is the leagal jargon MR. wondering pulled up some time ago from Wikipedia

Well again I am not sure of this lawyer, I tend to think with Mr Wondering that he wants to take the easy way out. Also what Princess Meg says that he is making it look like he is earning his 5G.

In the end if it was a sure thing that the plea was going to work out like he said, It wouldn't be a bad deal but its not the same as if he were proven innocent.

And of course, it is not something you want to gamble with, if you know for sure he is being victimized,and he has to suffer longterm, it will hurt him. and the punishment wont fit the crime.

Prayers for you guys writer

So that is that, I pray all my hullabaloo is a tempest in a teapot and your wishes come true with the plea. God bless you writer and maybe soon this will pass. I am sure the little girl who is so lost will lead an awful life untill she, if she ever, learns better. I can only pray for her and her twisted family, and hope God reaches them some way. It seems they have the legal system under thier control. Maybe next time they will mess with the wrong family.

Peace to you writer

Thanks CP. We're hoping for the best, but the waiting sucks.

Writer1, just reading through. You and your family are in my prayers.

Be still and breathe.

Wait to see what the plea bargain is

Talk to your son. Do not accuse. Ask him if there is anything that he has emailed or IMed to this girl that can be used against him.

Trust your instincts and ask God for guidance.

In your financial struggle check your withholding on your H paychecks. I changed my withholding from 0 to 2 and got a few hundred back extra. Just a thought

Funny story.

When my wife was 16, she was framed for felony theft by her brother and sister and forced to plead No-Low by her mother to keep her sister, who was already on probation from going to jail.

Her records where to be sealed and upon her turning 18 the records where to be expunged. (Expunged=It never happened)

I have spent about $3,000 over the last 12yrs "Re-Expunging" her record. 4yrs ago she lost her job at SunTrust because the darn thing poped back up from the dead, again.

And a few weeks ago, out of the blue, her current employer sent her a notification that they where going to perform another background check on her and asked her what her criminal record is. She is afraid they "Expunged" record is going to cost her this job as well.


Lawyer/Judge may say if he takes the plea it will go away, but trust me. It will still haunt him and it can be found.

Okay, I didn't realize they had his computer, I thought ALL they had was a stack of printouts. With his computer, they CAN verify the IMs and they WILL be admissible. Does your son know this? Have you asked him point blank about the IMs? If they are his, the DA WILL discover that. He needs to know that and if they are his, he needs to take the deal.

Expungement doesn't happen automatically. The convicted has to make a formal motion/request to have that done. I'm surprised you're having to pay that much to get it done though and then to have it keep popping up. Wow!

My BIL went through a similar thing. He had a sexual conviction and was placed on the sexual offenders list for 10 years - in Montana and then here in Texas when he moved here. After his probabtion was up, he had a heck of a time getting his info removed from ALL the databases. He would think it was done and another database would pop up with his info.

Ths computer is a wonderful invention, but sometimes it can be the source of great irritation on corraling/deleting information.

I guess I'd have the lie detector done MYSELF because that would help the attorney decide if he wants to look at that computer. The questions would be:
1. Did you send exGF threatening IMs?
2. Did you rape exGF?
3. Have you been totally honest with us about this whole thing?
If he comes up clean on those three, you show it to the lawyer. If anything is shaky, take the plea.

And that was done.


Lawyers are expensive.

Just piping in with my quiet .02.

I know of two incidents where people who were convicted of crimes came forward to their employers (or prospective employers) with the truth that the employer would likely see something on their record, a crime done in their youth usually. Imo...it is better to come forward and be honest than for the employer to find it through a background check without the person being upfront about it. Otherwise, it appears that they were being elusive and dishonest.

I think with good character references, that person has a good chance. I believe that a lot of people are forgiving and believe in giving others a chance.

Just editing to say that I'm sure there are those who will say 'no way', but there are exceptions.

The way our attorney explained it to us is that a juvenile's record is automatically sealed when he turns 18. It isn't the same as being expunged. We talked at length about this with our attorney, and he assured us over and over again that no one would be able to see the record, and that it would not be considered a felony conviction, so he would not have to answer yes to that question on a job application.

The bottom line is, our attorney doesn't feel our chances of winning are good if we go to trial. So, if we don't take the plea bargain, my son will still in all likelihood have a record (which would also be sealed) and have to register as a sex offender (which would be visible to everyone).

So, here are our choices. 1) Take the plea bargain and accept whatever consequences go along with that. 2) Go to trial and hope we win (but the attorney isn't confident that we will) and risk having my son sent to prison and being a registered sex offender. 3) Have my son run for the Mexican border and live the rest of his life as a fugitive from the law.

Boy do you have rose colored glasses, especially when it comes to large corporations.

I had that same conversation with our lawyer almost 12yrs ago. Records sealed at 18, it never happened Expunged from the history of the world.

I just like to use the word expunged.

She still got fired from SunTrust many years after her records where "Sealed" and it has resurfaced several other times.

And just like your Son, she was told to not answer yes to any question about a past conviction, because the records are sealed. (It never happened/expunged)

Trust me, in about 5-10 yrs you will find out I am right.

As for your Lawyer...
What research have you done on him?
Have you looked at any references?

I'm gonna tell ya, I might look for a different lawyer.

Maybe, but I believe that it's going to depend on the crime and the age of the individual at the time. Everyone makes mistakes. It doesn't mean their life is over. That's a very oppressing and limiting way to look at it.

The lawyer has a good reputation, and he was recommended by a friend of mine who is also an attorney and who I trust completely.

I can't look for a new attorney. I can't afford it and there isn't time. The judge made it quite clear (even when we were forced to show up without our attorney because he was sick) that he would not postpone the trial again.

And with his computer in custody if he is innocent, its a good thing they have it. It doesn't matter now , the lawyer is going for the deal Fri. , and her son says he wants it. I read between the lines that he feels guilty, or at least has written some foul things that can be proven if the DA inspects the Pc.

I still don't like it that wench and her family could get away with all this crap. But the world can be a crappy place.

CP: My son still says that he didn't write the IM's. We had one night when we knew that he was going to be arrested, and my son went through his computer before it was taken, trying to find anything she could use against him or anything he could use to help his case, but he was unable to find anything. He didn't have any of their IM's saved on his computer. He didn't even have the IM program on his computer anymore at all. All of the IM's that they currently have in their possession apparently came from the girl's computer, which of course, we have no access to. It was never taken into possession by the police or analyzed. They are just taking her word that the printouts she provided are legitimate.

His life isn't over, but his past will haunt him posibily and people don't forgive very easily. When HR depts see anything they just look at the other applicants who don't have past issues. Security type posiitions just won't take the chance.

But his life is not over that is right soolee, that is a bad attitude I agree. It will be a thorn in his side.

I tried to write a menu yesterday so that we could go grocery shopping. But every time I wrote down something that I wanted to fix, I couldn't remember the ingredients necessary to make it, or which of them I may already have in the cupboard or would need to buy. I wrote down three things and sat there staring at the paper for 5 minutes, before crumpling it up and starting over. The second time, I only made it to the second item before I wrote a "b" instead of a "d" and so I crumpled that up and gave up. I went to the store and bought some buns and ice cream and now we're eating salmon burgers for dinner tonight and after that, I just don't know.

How can I plan out a menu when I don't know what my life is going to look like a week from now? I don't know how many people I will be feeding. I don't know if I will be saying goodbye to my son for a month or two years, or maybe even running across the Mexican desert, laughing at all those silly Arizonans expecting to catch people only going the other way.

I remember saying things last night to my H that didn't even make sense to me when I was saying them, and now I can't remember them at all.

I think I may seriously be losing it.

Your over analyzing of everything is paralyzing you, and it comes across as apathy to many of us.

Write out simple menu's for the week. This is what I do. Then I e-mail them to myself. For dinner, it is a protein, a vegetable and a starch. Three things on a plate are healthy and good and easy.

Buy some fruit, vegetables, potatoes and frozen chicken or beef.

Gee, Gack, I'm so sorry that I'm not dealing with this crisis in a manner that suits you. I'm doing the best I can. I'm still getting out of bed every morning. A little empathy might be nice, and if you can't offer it, kindly stay off my thread.

Monday:

Breakfast: Oatmeal and fruit
Lunch: Sandwiches
Dinner: Chicken breast, brocoli, baked potato


Tuesday:
Cereal and bacon
Salad with chicken and fruit
Hamburgers and carrot sticks and celery
Snacks: Fruit and cheese

Etc, etc..........

I wish I had more time and did not have to work 10 hours a day like I do now. At least you have time to cook, clean, and care for your family. If you choose to do so.

I'm going to try going to the store again on Saturday, when my H can go with me and help out. I will try to keep it simple. I just kept staring at next Thursday on my menu, wondering, who will be here to eat whatever it is that I fix? Will it just be me, my H, the baby, and our 16 year old? Will I be able to take my son to the courthouse and say goodbye for however long he will be gone and then come home and do something so ordinary as fix dinner. How can I fix dinner when I won't know how he is or how he is being treated? This isn't like when my daughter went away to college or my older son moved out. I knew they were okay. I knew they were happy, doing something they wanted/needed to be doing. I knew I could call them up and talk to them any time I wanted. I won't have any of those reassurances if my son goes to jail.

No one can help you with those feelings. You have to get strong and tough inside and get some counseling if you cannot deal with this. I can imagine that not knowing how things will turn out is killing you. So, for now, quit thinking of it. Thinking of it is hurting your life.

I know this is a shot in the dark...but have you tried calling up the California Innocence Project?

All they do is get people out of prison who have been wrongfully convicted. The work is also done Pro Bono.

I just can't imagine that some legal person in this world wouldn't give you a half hour of their time for you to explain the situation and offer a bit of advice. Particularly if you consulted with a group that offered pro bono work.

Who cares if it suits me, I don't think it suits you.

Don't sell yourself short. I believe if you research the heck out of the law, his charges, and similar cases,..... you could have this dismissed. (Or at least win the trial)

Many of us have dealt with, or know someone who has dealt with a similar situation. And we are telling you something is not right about how this is progressing.

We are trying to help you.

Good!

Because I'm gonna tell ya, the alternative sucks

Better than that, you have my sympathies, and my support.

I just refuse to believe there is nothing you can do about any of this.

Technically, it would be "Stay out of my thread"

And we love you too!

Here are some things that the Innocence Project considers bad lawyering:

� failed to investigate alibis
� failed to call or consult experts on forensic issues
� failed to show up for hearings

I googled "teen crisis la" since I would consider this a crisis.

Here's the Web page for a crisis center
http://www.1736familycrisiscenter.org/help.htm

They even take collect calls. And they have a youth advocacy program for first time juvenile offenders (not saying you'll need this. But it does seem like they might be a resource for you). I'd be surprised if the center had no way to support you or your family.

ETA:
Here's a link from a site on domestic violence. It's about computer safety, and how there's always a computer trail. Furthermore, they tell abused people to not use IM to try to get help, because there's a trail.

http://www.nnedv.org/internetsafety.html

Hey Writer,

Are you sleeping? I mean more than 30 minutes at a time? Are you eating? Is there anything you are doing besides all of this?

Your grocery list debaucle has me concerned. Maybe because, as a person with a diagnosed illness, I hear the old "suck it up it's all in your head" song and dance way too often. Kind of like, "I know a truck just ran over your leg, but grit your teeth and walk it off." I also know you have no spare penny to go to a doctor or get prescriptions. So I am not going to say call a psych because I know you can't.

But do you have bendryl in the house so you can sleep at night? Can you cut out caffeine? Is it safe to take a walk in your neighborhood. Would you like to email me a chapter of your novel and have me tell you how good it is (because I am sure it is, besides, all us teachers do in the summer is eat bon bons anyway!)

I am not an attorney. And even though I love Law and Order and Matlock....uh, no. So I have no idea how to help you there. But I can tell you that I can tell you love your kids. I can tell you that, as Cory Ten Boom wrote, "There is no pit so deep that God is not deeper still." I can offer to find stupid youtube stuff to make you laugh. I can tell you what size pants I wear so you can feel really skinny and sexy. I can tell you that my drinking, rebellious drug selling brother (when he was in high school) is now a successful tech coordinator for his state department, he owns a house and a car and a cute dog, and he is one of the coolest people ever.

I can tell you that when I die one day and walk through the gates of heaven Jesus is not going to say, "Hey, aren't you that girl who had an affair/has bipolar disorder/wore pants from lane Bryant/never could keep her house spotless?" I've never seen a grave stone that said "She wore a size 16," "He ran over a squirrel," "She was a tactless smart-a**."

When you are in kindergarten, you learn that 2+2=4. When you take trig in high school, they add x's and z's and all sorts of weird symbols. Grown up life is sometimes way more confusing symbols than it is 2+2, and this is one of those times.

Hang in, get my email from the mods if you need to scream (as long as I can scream back someday). Eat that ice cream. Kiss your baby. Tell your 16 year old that one day he will have life lessons under his belt that those who had an "easy" road can't even fathom. Hug your other DS's that no matter what there ARE people in their lives who will ALWAYS love them. Tell your daughter that a strange Alabama woman would love to see Alaska someday. Give your DH one of THOSE kisses.

I haven't even READ your novel, and I'm already a fan. I have probably made you gag from sugar shock, but I don't care. When I lost my job and knew the gossip around the school was flying and couldn't control anything....I longed for somebody to come beside me and be silly and obnoxious and full of encouragement I couldn't yet believe. So that's my self-appointed role.

Ok then why does he want to take the plea? Please don't say its the money or that your lawyer is doing the best for you, I don't ses it that way.

But why have a half-aZZ lawyer go to trial for you? I think your stuck unless you follow that link given you that takes 800 calls now cuase of the time table and because the judge won't continue any more.

If he is going to do the plea tommorow then you don't have time to think about it. I know this is hard and I hope it works out, just hang in there

Writer,
If you have faith in your son and he said that he did not write those IM's I would go the way of the trial.

If there is nothing to verify then let them look and then the girl will be the one who has falisfied documents

His attorney needs to believe in him. Do you know what any of these supposed IMs said?

take care

I don't know how anyone can consider IM's legitimate evidence. Unless the entire conversation is a series of screen shots, the conversation saved as a text file can be edited by anyone.

When my H and I were going through the immigration process, I saved our IM's to serve as proof of our relationship and at the time, I noticed that I could have written anything I wanted. They were just plain text files.

I truly don't get the justice system.

As printouts they pretty much ARE useless, however, with new electronic discovery processes, forensic guys actually analyze the computer files that store the IMS and read the metadata as well from those and emails. I was just reading an article about this from the American Lawyer. Fascinating stuff.

Yeah and the Instant messenger has to be told to log convos. Its default setting is not to, so why did she set it like that? To entrap him of course.

I thought that AIM or whatever IM he uses might have a transcript available alao. WOW keeps thier server texting for a couple months,(yes they see it all), and can pull up any convo made on the server.

If they can identify his screenname on the PC logs she has it still isn't proof yet. The service will have to prove it, but the warning is, maybe the court wont go that far and verify it. They might just take the IMs she turned in at face value. They really can't take that chance with this lawyer, he has allready shown his colors, he will do the least amout of work possible for his 5G.

I would before it to late writer call that number someone linked to you. At least you can hear from real lawyers what can be done to protect your son and it will be free. They might be able to give you some pointers.


In Mass back in the 70s at least a minor girl was not questioned at her word in the case of stat. rape. I knew a guy who went to prison for two years because he acceptted certain sexual favors from a 16 year old girl who was well known for this in the neigborhood. Didn't matter, his lawyer could not even cross-examine her, and because he was slow and an easy target, he went to jail. Yeah he was guilty and deserved it, but her story was not the way it happened, and everyone else who did the same with her walked away. She was an evil little B**&th and loved it, but the waterworks came out in court and she cried rape. This girl did not see justice done or even get help for herself, she just had a new angle to explain why her marks were bad. The simpleton,(he was barly smart enough to have a job, he really was simple), only went with her once. The minor girl got pregnant by one of her minor boyfriends and didn't want to get in trouble for having sex so said she was raped by this guy who had a target on his back.

The court tends to listen to the girls version.


See above the story about the "sealed", records and bouncing expungments.

Its going to be tough any way you look at it. A lifetime of hoping the records are sealed and don't jump up and bite him, ( if the plea goes thru), or a well prepared battle in the courts to get the truth out.

I would look into that number and see what they can help you with before they close today. Its 3:00 PM there now. At least they will be on your side writer.

Thats what I thought Meggy, but doesn't that just prove that the original message came from someone, and not show editing? tell me it shows editing!!

And of course we will be dealing with hand picked communication too of course.. They will need to go into public servers to get it all. I don't believe the court is going to do this easily or with this lawyers request anyways. There will have to be more muscle

Its been a long long time since I took Criminal Procedure in law school, but I am almost certain Rules of Criminal Procedure for every state include Discovery provisions. Your son's lawyer should be able to get everything the prosecution intends to use as evidence at trial and should have made this request LONG ago. The prosecution is also legally bound to turn over anything that could raise reasonable doubt. I don't have time right this second but when I have a sec, I will look at CA's Rules of Criminal Procedure to see what you can and can't get. I strongly suspect you will be able to use legal maneuverings to find out if the intend to introduce a forensic analysis of your son's computer. If not, the print out of the IM conversation would have to be authenticated by the girl and she would be subject to cross examination by your son's attorney. Also, your son's attorney could put on an IT professional to explain how print outs from IM work and how the can be adulterated/created simply by using Word Perfect.

DISCLAIMER: I am not licensed to practice law in the State of California and the following should not be construed as legal advice. What follows is simply a cut and paste of text from the California Penal Code. Any and all legal advice and interpretation of the following text should be obtained from and attorney licensed to practice law in the State of California.

DIRECTLY FROM THE CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE

1054.1. The prosecuting attorney shall disclose to the defendant or
his or her attorney all of the following materials and information,if it is in the possession of the prosecuting attorney or if the
prosecuting attorney knows it to be in the possession of the
investigating agencies:
(a) The names and addresses of persons the prosecutor intends to
call as witnesses at trial.
(b) Statements of all defendants.
(c) All relevant real evidence seized or obtained as a part of the
investigation of the offenses charged. (d) The existence of a felony conviction of any material witness
whose credibility is likely to be critical to the outcome of the
trial.
(e) Any exculpatory evidence.
(f) Relevant written or recorded statements of witnesses or
reports of the statements of witnesses whom the prosecutor intends to
call at the trial, including any reports or statements of experts
made in conjunction with the case, including the results of physical
or mental examinations, scientific tests, experiments, or comparisons
which the prosecutor intends to offer in evidence at the trial.


Writer, if I were you, I'd be asking your son's attorney if he's done this and what is there regarding proof of the IM conversations. If there was no forensic review, that girl's authentication of the print out is attackable by anyone with an IT background bys imply explainin how the file is convered to a Word document and after that, it is subject to edit by anyone with access to the Word file.

I don't know anything about the law, but would it be better to allow the prosecuting attorney to screw up and bring these things up without disclosing them first?

Could anything brought in like this without notice to the defense be permanently disqualified as evidence to the prosecution?

Soolee,

I will leave strategy to an attorney licensed to practice in CA.

http://www.nnedv.org/internetsafety.html

About IM trails I guess

It was just an open ended question to whomever.

Like I said, I don't know anything about the law.

Ah Brits,
She is supposed to hear from her Atty, who by the way, if you read back some, is not wanting to take this to court. He wants a plea deal, and IMO is not a good atty for her.

But they are going to hear about the plea deal tommorow, and the judge wont continue the case, even because her atty did not show up last time. She already had changed from a bad PD

I don't think the atty even looked at what the DA had. At least that was my impression. His advice was it would be his word against hers, and he wasn't confident that the judge would believe her son.

Writer and her son are going to take the plea as it stands now, as long as he delivers what he promised. Tommorow I think.

Im glad you posted this info, it might help if they do go to trial, and at least she can tell if her lawyer is doing all he can and should for her.

We will know tommorow the news anyway

If something was braught up that wasn't disclosed to writers atty beforehand it wouldn't be admissable I don't think.

It is up to writers atty to look into the DAs case against them. Which we don't know how much work he has done towards this. we just know that he doesn't feel he can stop the girl and her family from putting a blot on her sons reputation, we don't know all the details why, just that he can't find a way to fight it. IMO, he isn't gonna bother.

Read back on this Brits, see if you agree, I think the lawyer is lazy, not because hes a lawyer, but because he can be.

It was a good question

Hi Writer,

Just thought I would like to check in on your story. I am not an attorney, and it sounds like Brits_Brat had an excellent suggestion, but it seems like you are down to the 11th hour now on deciding. Even so, although it seems likely you cannot possibly afford (on your own, and not with any unlikely financial help form the OM) to retain the current attorney, if you AND YOUR son decide to have this case tried even at the 11th hour I would consider a PD IF you and your son decide this is the best option. Okay, so the judge gets p.o.'d on July 29 without legal representation, I cannot believe that a local or municipal judge could proceed with a trial, when even at the last minute and for lack of finances, a defendent decides at the last minute that he (your son) does not have adequate legal counsel. My point in saying this is simply this. As you are well aware, people with less financial resources are charged and convicted of crimes to a much higher degree than people with more. So, please do not come down to the wire and allow your current financial situation to determine the best legal remedy for your son. Lt's face it Wirter, if you had $100k to allocate to his case this would not be stressing you nearly as much because you would have been able to afford the best and highest defense. I just feel that by this current attorney not even having the consideration of keeping you posted and in the loop for the last two months he has now allowed a good family to dangle in the wind. You would definitely need some advice from someone in the legal profession, either online here or in person.

That being said Writer, know what, I am concerned about you and your family too now as lurioosi2 is. So okay, just a few suggestions for your menu. Kraft Classic tangy spahgetti - comes in a box for $1.89. Only other thing required is a $0.79 can of tomato paste. Feeds four (lightly). So double it and for $6.00 you have a really full meal for at least four. I lived on this when I was in college - at least 3 times a week. And, tuna - canned about $.99 per can and failry high in protein and served with pasta a good meal. Or, 70% or 75% ground beef (maybe mixed with a small amout of 85% lean) - add a can of cream of mushroom soup and a can or two of cut green beans and is filling. Even add some torn up bread to the hamburger mix before you fry or grill it. And yea another of my favorites from college..franks. Just boil the beef franks, slit down the middle, not in two tho, use the cheese you got from the food bank to slice little strips and put into the franks...microwave or oven bake for about two minutes and serve with inexpensive macaroni salad or also inexpensive potatoe salad. And yes, there is Chef-Boy-Ardee (sp) in a box for about $3.89 here. Makes two pizzas serving 6. Sprinkle top with chopped and fried ground round and and chopped onion and maybe a few diced olvies and there you go for a nutritional and filling meal for a Sat. night when you guys watch a dvd movie that you checked out from your local library.

I am not being facetioous (sp) toward you Writer or in any way disresepctful toward you. Just saying that I would rare back now on the legal situation ( if only it is in your son's best interest) and trying to help you in anyway I can even tho I realize it is in very tiny chunks.

By way, as regarding cooking and food. Except when I go out with friends or my son or wife (who is in a nursing home now and that does not happen much) I have eaten one meal a day - primarily supper - for last five years. Partly because back in 2005 I had to pay off her hospital bill Not covered by ins. and partly because I have gotten used to it. Am still alive and feeling good at age 68.

Well can offer you no more except a special prayer for you and your family tonight as you face this crisis and decision.

My Best to You and Yous,

Tom

Thanks CP. I think I've been watching too many Boston Legal reruns.

Sorry, but I'm back thinking about a lie detector test.

Son insists that nothing happened. The authorities have his computer to verify.

Son is agreeable to a plea bargain.

Sorry, I've been gone all day. We decided to take the day off from freaking out and go swimming. Wouldn't you know it, the attorney called while we were gone even though he wasn't supposed to call until tomorrow. I tried calling him back when we got home and he was already gone. Ugh. Guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out what's going on.

On the positive side, I feel a bit more relaxed and the sunburn isn't hurting too bad yet.

I need to catch up on all these posts.

Update, what did the atty call about?

He left a message saying he wanted to talk to us about our payment plan and something that he spoke to the probation department about. He didn't mention anything about talking to the DA, so I don't know if he's spoken with them yet. I probably won't be able to talk to him until later today since he's almost always in court in the morning. I hate waiting.

So he calls when it's about HIM but doesn't call when you're in need? Hmmmm--do you think you might express your frustration to the guy who gave you the referral? Does the attorney KNOW you were a referral?

I think the main point of his call is to discuss something that he spoke to the probation department about regarding our case, but we'll have to wait and see what that is.

Thinking of you today writer.

Thanks Luri.

And thank you for the encouraging (and funny) words yesterday. You always make me laugh.

Remind me, whens the court date?

Trial is set for Thursday, July 29th.

So then why is he talking to the probation department about a payment plan? Has the deal already been made? I know there are probation fees to pay when someone is placed on probation. Is that what he's talking about? Is this none of my business?

Sorry for the confusion. He wants to talk to us about two separate issues. 1) Our payment agreement with him. 2) Something he spoke to the probation department about yesterday regarding my son's case. I have no idea why he was talking with probation. When we met with him on Tuesday, he only said he was going to try to talk to the DA about a plea bargain. I don't know what this new development might be, but the waiting is killing me.

This has become my son's favorite video over the past few months. He dedicates it to his ex-girlfriend.

Found out our attorney is in court this afternoon with another trial, so it may be awhile before we can speak to him. Why do I have to have such an impatient personality? I absolutely hate waiting.

You're not being impatient, you're concerned about your son and your family. Of course, I am likely 100 times more impatient than you, so by comparison, you are most likely Job.

Ha, ha, Luri. You are the only, and I mean ONLY, person who has ever compared me to Job. Though there are some similarities. I do seem to live under the banner of Murphy's Law, don't I?

Just so you know, Murphy was an optimist...

Nothing is ever so bad it can't get worse.

There is a logical progression for everything, from bad to worse...
This is cyclical. (Murphy meets the dialectic)

Anything that can go wrong, will�at the worst possible moment. (Finagle's Law of Dynamic Negatives)

Those involved in research and examining how things work tend to reject any data that does not support the hypothesis and overstate the importance of data that does. (Confirmation bias)

A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure. (Segal's Law)

Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you. (Proverbs 2:11)

Okay, well then, I suppose my life is governed by Finagle's Law of Dynamic Negatives then.

But back to Murphy. If everything is a cyclical progression from bad to worse, how do we know when we have hit the absolute bottom? Is there a bottom if nothing is so bad that there is always something worse? These statements seem contradictory. One cycle must necessarily end (meaning that a bottom has been found and the absolute worst has been attained) in order for the entire process to start over again. But if there is always something worse than the current situation, how can one ever find that bottom in order to begin the cycle once again at the top?

Us BP'ers like this one:

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.

Remind to to book Mark for my next "Power of Positive Thinking" seminar!

Ah, but you see, as soon as you feel the bottom beneath your feet, it is likely that it is only a momentary thing before it drops out from under you, plunging you again downward into the pit...

And actually, the quote from Proverbs should give you hope...

It's how you avoid the never ending cycle of choices that result in negative consequences the attempted recovery from which leads you to make other choices that lead to additional negative consequences.

Discretion will protect you, and understanding will guard you.

The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry but he thwarts the craving of the wicked. (Proverbs 10:3)

When the storm has swept by, the wicked are gone, but the righteous stand firm forever. (Proverbs 10:25)

When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him. (Proverbs 16:7)

Better to be lowly in spirit and among the oppressed than to share plunder with the proud. Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD. (Proverbs 16:19 & 20)

So what if I didn't know what went wrong was wrong?

Like , "Oh thats a bad thing when smoke comes out of the engine?, I'm glad i brought it in for a tune up then, put it on my card"

Of course its all about perception isn't it?

Average american man complains, "I have to work two jobs to afford all I have".

Average immigrant coming to america from impoverished country, "I can work two jobs!?!?, Thank Providence"


Comesback to how wise really are we when we know something bad is going to happen so we expect it so were not surprised, dissapointed or embarassed. I'm not drinking the kool-aid, but I would rather be positive and maybe appear gullible to others than the other options if I have to make a choice.

Expectations from God and his promises writer, Murphy sure made some funny laws/observations but when I am down they don't allways seem funny. I know they are suppossed to knock us out of our bad mood, but when things are black they are nothing but someodys thoughts who doesn't careyou as much as the God that created you, and is inside you, preparing a miracle.

I allways wonder why people say "The patientence of Job", Job suffered as he waited for the God who gave him everything to return it to him. He wasn't waiting for what was owed him because God doesn't owe us anything so why would he even even have to exercise patience? Job was completly subject to God andeven gave Him credit for his thoughts andemotions and that was the lesson wasn't it? That he had no choice and he knew it, and God knew he knew it, but Satan did not.
I have had people call me Job before too, and I took it as a compliment because it was intended to be, but it perplexed me when people says he was patient, heck i would call it desparate and longsuffering if anything, cuz he knew God held his future.

You will come thru this Writer and be stronger for it. Your son will have learned one of lifes lessons the hard way and it will help him avoid these type of people. He will be able to work somehow at something no matter what the outcome if he can put the past behind him and he will keep on fighting the good fight.

We all get dealt bad cards sometimes but if we stay in the game long enough we learn how to cut our losses and not lose our shirts. This crisis is also an opportunity for everyone to pull together. I hope they all do.

So now we have to wait how long for "Atticus Finch" to get back to you?

I heard it "Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean people are not talking about you" but its funny either way.

This makes attempting to correct one's past mistakes sound rather futile, don't you think? If bad things are going to continue happening because of something you did in the past, then why even bother? I thought attempting to recover from bad choices made in the past was a good thing, but if that attempted recovery only leads to additional negative consequences, where's the point? I must be missing something.

And does it matter if I'm not particularly religious?

Trust me, we are all religiuos

My head hurts! Stop being all, like, deep and junk.

Let's talk about puppies!

I think taking responsibility for them is all we can do, that way were recognize mistakes and avoid future ones, while cleaning up our messes. I literally live by "Show me a person who has never made a mistake and i will show you someone who has never learned anything"

I tell my kids this, check me if you think I'm wrong.
"The bible wasn't written for you to study as a textbook and then be put away, many things wont even make sense to you untill you are older, and many cannot be truly appreciated until you experience them. You will never come to a place where its wisdom will not teach you or guide you every day, and you will never be more spiritually entitled than anyone else becuase you read it more. Its truly alive and has killed more people than you can imagine."

We all are religiuos becuase we have belief systems that lean upon for security. "If I do this then that will happen" sorta thinking. Even the athiest thinks that way. If things didn't happen that force us to have faith in something beyond that world, we would stay there. If it were only that simple. But as you have experienced, Bad, unfair things happen to people, then there are oodles of people waiting to show you howyou were wrong and its all your fault and how you should pay for it.

The bible says that in order for us to judge others we must know the sin in our heart, therefore it allready exists in us to begin with. Also to be careful in how we hand out judgement, because with the same measure it will be measured out to us.

This isn't to say we should be lawless, but it does teach us something of moving forward from the past.

Gods gift, Puppie breath

TTYL companys here

Talked to the lawyer.

The DA has decided to talk to the "victim's" family before discussing any plea bargains. Translation: We're screwed. There's no way that the "victim's" family is going to agree to anything that doesn't involve my son going to prison for a long time, being a registered sex offender, and going to the gallows. Her father has made underhanded death threats against my son (yep, the DA's aware of this, as is the judge).

We won't know anything for sure until Monday or Tuesday, but it's just a technicality. This family wants to make my son pay and pay big. If the DA didn't care what they wanted, I can't imagine why he would bother talking to them. Obviously, their wishes are going to be considered in this, and even if there is a plea bargain, it won't be anything we can live with. Our only other choice is going to trial on Thursday, which our attorney doesn't think we will win.

I am not okay. I am trying to be okay, but I am not okay. I have spent 4 months hoping and believing that innocent people really don't go to prison for crimes they did not commit. People have been telling me stories where this exact thing has happened to others they have known, but I didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe in justice. I wanted to believe that truth matters. It doesn't. Nothing matters. You can go along and try your best to do what is right and live within the parameters of the law and guess what? IT DOESN'T MATTER! It just doesn't. So, that is the lesson that my son and my family will walk away having learned from all of this. That is what we will take with us into whatever the rest of our lives will be.

Don't tell the truth. It won't get you anywhere anyway. It has taken me 39 years to figure this out. Me, the person who abhors lies and deceit. The person who has spent her entire existence lecturing everyone about the importance of being honest, no matter what. Where has it gotten me? Nowhere!!!

I am so ANGRY!!!!!!!!!

I am so so sorry writer. And I understand why you are not okay. I believe that you will be....but I know that doesn't matter a whit now. You have my permission to scream obscenities into your pillow.

writer1,

Don't assume anything. Don't assume that the DA is on the side of the other family because he is talking to them. I am not up on the laws in CA, but unless it has been changed, their Victim's Rights Act requires the family to be consulted and heard regarding prosecution, at trial, and prior to sentencing. That doesn't mean the DA is buying into their side. I don't understand why your attorney is not keeping you better apprised of the process at every turn.

Writer,

Ya know, sometimes people would like at least acknowledgemnts of when someone does try to offer advice and support even when it is just simply encouragement! I fully realize they should not expect it. I realize you are very stressed and busy, but still. Just shaking my head.

Tom

I don't know what this is in reference to, but if I have ignored or offended anyone, I am sorry. I don't mean to not respond, but there is just too much going on in my head right now, and sometimes, I just can't.

Retread: Our attorney told us on Tuesday that he did not think the DA would need to talk to the family, so it can't be required by law. The DA has chosen to talk to them. Much of what we have been told by both our PD and private attorney has not actually turned out to be the case.

I'm going to take a drive now with my H and try to clear my head.

I do appreciate all of the help/advice/support everyone is offering. I'm sorry if I'm not doing a very good job showing it. It's all I can do to remember my own name at the moment.

writer, almost all of us can understand that. I have no idea why you were attacked like that by one poster at this very low point for you. Please pay no attention.

If any poster feels that their help has not been sufficiently acknowledged, they are free to stop posting. This thread is not about them.

Perhaps Jack Daniels was in the house today.

I think I am just done with this.

I have tried to talk to my son a thousand times, and I get nowhere.

Most of my questions are answered with sarcasm and anger. All I get is "I don't know." The only thing he is sure of is that he did not rape her. He doesn't know if he wrote any of the IM's. He doesn't remember. He may have written them and admitted to raping her just to get her to leave him alone. That's what he says. The IM's may be real. They may not. He may have admitted to raping her. He may not have. He didn't do it, but he might have said he did. Who knows.

"I'm screwed. Just accept it." "I just want to enjoy my last few days of freedom." "It's over, there's nothing you can do about it." "I don't want to talk to you about it."

That's all I get. He won't talk. He won't fight. All he does is lash out at me if I even try to suggest something that we could still do. "It won't work, why bother?" "AREN'T YOU LISTENING? I'M SCREWED." These are the things I hear, over and over again. I've been hearing some version of them for the past 4 months.

I can' fight anymore. I can't do this by myself. I feel like everyone has just given up - my son, the attorney, my H. I don't know how to fight this battle alone. This is my son, and I don't want to give up on him. But he's already given up on himself. I just want him to help me help him. And he won't. And I don't know what to do with that.

So basically, He had sex with this minor girl , (he was a minor when it happened too),and she is calling it Rape? Thats what I got from it all.

If it goes to trial like you suspect the only hope is you can show the truth which from what it sounds like, she lied about consenual sex and she is entraping him. The lawyer implying that he is powerless sounds like crap to me, cuz they were both legally minors when the sex was happening. Plus this lawyer doesn't sound quite right anyway.

So maybe he did say some of the things they are accusing him of, maybe he is guilty of being nasty at some point. What your lawyer hasto prove is that she had consentual sex with your son, and she is trying to get even with him.

Find aut about that law help link that talks about what you can do if your lawyer doesn;t show up in court, the one about fairness. Call them and get more help. Maybe you can get a mis-trial or something, at least you might get a specalist who will tell you what can be done, instead of the advice from the lawyer you have and us in the peanut gallery.

He didn't Rape her, right? She is making this up to get back at him for breaking up with her and dating another girl right? Its all over the internet and you have all kinds of evidence this is a "high school drama" right? Her family threatened your son pubicliy, has had incidents with the law, is know to be trouble right?

Use that information and find a way, (lawyer), to help you. Its too bad the one you spent money on has failed you but there is still help somewhere, start with that link.


If he was not a minor when this happened I would say different but he was so it comes down to the WHOLE truth in court, not to just thier version of it.

Don't let the possiblity that this lawyer was not what you needed be a reason to feel powerless or guilty. The truth is still the truth.

Half representation is worse than no representation IMO.

sending positive thoughts your way, writer!

OK, writer, I found a good-paying job for you:
http://www.salon.com/life/life_stor...2010/07/26/write_college_essays_for_cash
Maybe time to post an ad on Craigslist?

That was a funny read Ima. Thanks for the laugh.

It seems a little like scholastic prostitution. But it does make me want to go into teaching and hopefully prevent kids from turning into the sort of college students who would actually consider paying someone else to write their papers for them.

Perhaps the DA smells a rat.

Have you entertained the idea that the reason your lawyer does not want to go to trial has nothing to do with your chances, but has everything to do with the effort he would have to put in if you do go to trial?

To him, it was not financially beneficial to put in the effort it would take for a trial.

Translation = You weren't paying him enough to bother with it.

Now he may have to go to trial. This may not be a bad thing, his attitude may change now. Either way, I do not like your lawyer.

What evidence do they have against you son?

Also, once things have settled down a bit, you might try this book out.
http://www.amazon.com/48-Days-Work-You-Love/dp/0805444793/ref=pd_sim_b_2
I have heard Ramsey recommend it several times on his show.


I wish you and your family the best in this hard time.

Thanks Gack.

I actually own that book. I haven't read it yet, but I want to. Right now, it seems I have the attention span of a cricket... Hey, is that a tree?

Read the reviews!

Nothing but a printed out IM log, correct?

Yes, about 3 or 4 pages of a printed IM log.

Will the court allow, and can you quickly come up with some character witnesses?

Is your lawyer going to point out that a printed out IM log can easily be fabricated?

We have character reference letters. We are trying to come up with some people who may be able to come to court and testify as well, but I'm not sure if we'll be able to. It's very short notice and everyone works.

I hope my lawyer will point out that the IM log can be fabricated. At first, he was saying that it wouldn't even be admissible if they couldn't verify it directly from the computer, but he seems to have changed his tune about that. Now, he's saying they don't have to verify anything. I'm not sure why. He said he can request the IM record to be verified, but he doesn't want to do that, because if the record does trace back to my son's computer, then it would be even worse for our case.

The IM's were written 8 months ago, so of course, my son has no idea exactly what he wrote to this girl. He did say that she was constantly harassing him every time he went online, and he may have flippantly agreed to/apologized for raping her just to get her to leave him alone. However, the IM messages the girl produced are much worse than a flippant agreement. They are pretty damning. Several of them were written on days my son insists he wasn't even in contact with her. They broke up on the 20th of December, and he says he didn't have any contact with her until a week later, after Christmas. But the first two IM conversations are dated Dec. 21 and 23.

The thing about IMs is that you can't even verify that you're talking to the same person. For example, sometimes when I open my computer I can see my daughter hasn't logged off her facebook account. I could easily strike up a conversation with her friends in the chat mode and there is NO WAY they could even verify it was me.
Secondly, I remember my daughter getting a facebook message from a boy saying he was madly in love with her. Now, he's a passionate kid, but I don't see him doing that. Well guess what? He was at the mac store using a new ipad demo unit and forgot to log out of facebook. Some total stranger started spamming all his friends with messages like that one.
So... IMs, even if they are "real" cannot be definitely your son's. If he leaves his computer logged on and has friends over, you never can tell what they might do, just to defend their friend.
A polygraph will verify your son's intent and honesty.

I hope my lawyer will point out that the IM log can be fabricated. At first, he was saying that it wouldn't even be admissible if they couldn't verify it directly from the computer, but he seems to have changed his tune about that. Now, he's saying they don't have to verify anything. I'm not sure why. He said he can request the IM record to be verified, but he doesn't want to do that, because if the record does trace back to my son's computer, then it would be even worse for our case.



Writer, this seems to be the key to your son's freedom...

How could this be worse? I would insist on an explanation.

One more thing. The girl knew my son's username and password. Apparently, an analysis could reveal not just if the IM's were sent from my son's account, but if they were sent from his actual computer. If they were sent from his account, but not his computer, we could disprove them. If they were sent from his account, from his computer, the info would probably hurt us, since he was never over at her house after the incident. She could have logged onto his account after that night, but she couldn't have done it from his computer.

Yeah, it could have been someone else on my son's computer, but really, the only people who would have had access to it would be our immediate family, and I don't see my other kids saying stuff like that and pretending to be my son. If they were going to pretend to be him as a joke or something, I'm sure they wouldn't have been saying THAT.

My son will not do anything to help himself and he will not let anyone else help him. If I try to talk to him, I get verbally abused and told how stupid I am. All he wants is to enjoy his last few days of freedom. He will not listen to me. He will not do anything I ask him to do. He will not talk to me in a decent or respectful tone. I ask him to leave the room, and he will not do it.

He won't fight this anymore. All the advice I am receiving on here won't do a bit of good if he refuses to allow me to help him. I am trying. I am listening to what everyone has to say. I want to help him. BUT HE WILL NOT DO ANYTHING! I can't do this by myself. I am not the one who has been accused of a crime. I can't fight this unless he agrees to fight as well, and he will not. Every time I bring up anything we can do, he becomes hostile, defiant, and verbally abusive.

I really can't take this anymore. I cannot take the yelling and screaming. This isn't good for me. This isn't good for the baby. I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE!

And you allow this?
(My momma would smack me!)


What does your husband think about all this?
Has he attempted to help at all?

No, I don't allow it. I asked him repeatedly to get off the computer and please leave the room. He repeatedly refused. I manually shut off the computer, and still he wouldn't leave. I had to call my H at work and have him talk to him. After a lot of yelling and screaming, my son finally went downstairs and slammed his bedroom door loud enough to probably break it.

I don't hit, so any suggestions other than smacking him would be greatly appreciated. I certainly don't want to be the doormat around here anymore, but I don't believe in physical violence either. I'm quite a bit smaller than most of the people in my house anyway.

Just checking.

Don't sell yourself short....


Get, it...



Short


...... Sounds of crickets..........


Ok, so that wasn't funny at all, but hey I tried.



My question about what your husband thinks was a more general question. I mean about the entire situation? Has he helped with the lawyer, had input into the situation, etc.

My H is generally very Type B (except for when he gets truly angry, as I mentioned a few weeks ago with the blowup that occurred between him and my son. Think Incredible Hulk). When we go to the meetings with the lawyer, he either takes over the responsibility of watching the baby during the meeting, or if we get a babysitter, he just sits there and doesn't talk. We've talked about the situation a lot, but his stance is pretty much to just trust the lawyer 100% and let him deal with everything.

Writer...I've heard of some parents who physically remove the bedroom door. Privacy is a privilege - not a right. When the teenager can learn to treat you respectfully, the door goes back on. Rinse and repeat. Seems like a pain, but doable with your husband's help. Probably won't have to do it more than once.

You can also slowly remove furniture from the bedroom. Leave just the mattress on the floor. Remove all but the essential things. Give him a clothes basket for a dresser.

You can remove his computer. Lock it up at a grandparents' house.

Soolee: My son's room is in the garage. It isn't really a bedroom. My FIL did it, though it is pretty nice for a garage room. I wouldn't feel comfortable removing the door, since then his room would be open to the rest of the garage, and we've been having a vermin problem. Something large is living in our walls. It's not in the house, but it may be able to get into the garage. Two visits from the exterminator haven't been able to catch whatever it is. I certainly wouldn't want it getting into my son's room.

The police took care of the computer. They confiscated it 4 months ago as "evidence" though as far as I can tell, no one has even looked at it since then. He's been using the "family" computer in the living room, which is old, slow, and barely works.

Writer, is there someone who is close to your son who can sit him down and explain how he needs to fight this?

How do you know that this girl has his password and account #. Have you told the attorney this? It is very important.

I think it would be worth it to have this verified especially if he did not communicate with her after Dec 20 and the first IM's were sent on the 21st.

If this blows up in the girls face you can sue her for defamation of character when she loses.

I'm going to see if our Bishop at church can talk to him, but we're running out of time. The trial is scheduled for Thursday.

My son told me that the girl had his password. They had been dating for a year and a half. She'd had it for a long time. And yes, the attorney is aware of this.

I really think we need a deferment if we are to have any hope of winning this, but I'm not sure if we can get another one. The judge seems to be really pressing to get this over with as soon as possible. It was the judge who told our attorney that he needed to talk to the DA about a plea bargain. Even the judge doesn't want the case to go to trial, though I'm not sure why or what this means.

Judges pretty much ALWAYS encourage pleas (in criminal cases) or settlements (in civil cases) because it clears their docket and moves the system along. It more than likely has NOTHING to do with the specifics of your son's case.

I guess that's good to know. At least it doesn't mean the judge thinks he would have to convict our son if it does go to trial, so he was advising us to settle for something less than he would have to impose in the case of a guilty verdict. That's what I thought it meant.

But if this is true, then it seems to me that almost everyone accused of a crime is ultimately found guilty and must suffer a punishment (since accepting a plea bargain is basically admitting guilt, at least on some level). So, once charged, you have an extremely good chance of being considered "guilty." That hardly seems right.

I used to believe that most people charged with a crime were guilty, that a case generally wouldn't go to trial unless there was enough evidence to prove the accused really committed the crime. But, in our case, there isn't much evidence at all. In fact, other than the questionable IM's and the girl's word, there isn't any evidence. Is it common for someone to be charged with a crime and have the case go all the way to trial when there is little evidence to support the charges?