|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
After, during, the court case I hope your son sees that his temper tantrums are not helping him in any way, and if he doesn't have the worse happen to him in court, he still has to change how he handles conflict.
He might not have raped her, I doubt that he did. It sounds like just what you have described. If this goes to court, he will need to tell the truth if asked and not pretend he is innocent. She slept with him willingly, and she is lieing about the rape. His clamming up will just make the court suspiciuos that he has not seen his mistake IMO. It might make it worse for him.
I can't see the lawyer advising to deny it all, but I am not practicing Law there. Isn't it true that with the age differance it was not considered statutory because they were both minors and within the 3 year age differance when it happened?
If that is true its easier to make it look like it is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234 |
I don't mean to butt in like that, writer, but sounds like there's a ton of anxiety and angst in your household. That can be hard for even the toughest kid to live around, and add a situation like this to the mix...
We tend to think kids that age can handle the world, but sometimes it takes a few more years.
Sooly
"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."
Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
I don't mean to butt in like that, writer, but sounds like there's a ton of anxiety and angst in your household. That can be hard for even the toughest kid to live around, and add a situation like this to the mix...
We tend to think kids that age can handle the world, but sometimes it takes a few more years. I agree
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
Prayers and hugs to the family writer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
The lawyer wants my son to testify if we do go to trial. He has agreed to do so. He isn't denying that they had sex. He was 17 when this happened and she was 16, and my lawyer said it isn't illegal for them to have been sexually active.
I don't think my son is a rapist. I see nothing in his past that would have indicated that he is violent, sexually or otherwise. He's never even been in a fight before. It just doesn't seem logical that a normal, average kid with no history of violence, no problems in school, no discipline problems at home would suddenly rape somebody.
Physically, my son is very small. He's 5'4" and barely weighs 100 lbs. soaking wet. He's a computer nerd, not really into sports. He looks much younger than 18. He's pretty goofy and immature for his age. The girl is his height and probably outweighs him by 10-15 lbs. The girls' father is over 6", burly, and extremely mean (in actions and appearance). He's an admitted ex-cocaine dealer and has a beard about a foot long. My son may not always think things through clearly, but he would have had to have a death wish to rape this girl while her father was in the next room. The girl claims to have screamed during this attack, and she even admits in her statement that she doesn't know why her parents didn't hear her or respond. Their house is single-story and not big. Her room is right across the hall from her parents' room, and according to her, some portion of the "attack" took place in her bedroom. Things just aren't adding up in my mind.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234 |
I would check his health records, writer, and see just out of curiosity how tall and how much he weighed at that time too. Let the lawyer know.
And I would bend over backwards to find out about that IM.
Sooly
"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."
Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
Of course, one might say pressing the young man, or any man after they have indicated in word and in deed they do not wish to discuss a matter a form of abusive behavior as well.
Like it or not, he's now 18, he's legally an adult, and if he doesn't want to discuss a matter, no matter what his parents think, he has the right not to discuss it. If he doesn't want to mount a defense, that is (sadly) his prerogative.
Pressing him on it is simply a form of DJ.
We would all like to see him take an active means of defense. For some reason, right or wrong, he thinks it to be fruitless.
Instead of faulting him for thinking this way, provide him with some assurance that his concerns are not well founded. After all, given that writer1 seems to think things are close to hopeless, then why chide him for adopting the same mindset?
Folks make decisions, they pay the price for those decisions. This young man chose poorly. Either he did rape her, or he chose a willing sex partner who could not be trusted. Either way, he decided to engage in the behavior. If he doesn't want to mount a defense, then it's on him.
He's had 18 years to learn how to behave. The law will likely see him as an adult, and treat him accordingly.
If there is a way to determine the IP address the IM's came from, that may help. One may need AOL or Yahoo or whomever is the IM provider to help with that information.
It is somewhat telling if the young man doesn't want to mount a defense. Perhaps he knows more than he's telling? I don't know, nor do I have an opinion either way.
What appears evident is that something makes him think he can't win. If that can be addressed, then address it. But if he doesn't want to talk, it would be abusive to keep trying to force him to have a dialog he does not wish to have. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Harley's principles were meant to be applied to the marital relationship and not the parent/child relationship. Some of them simply wouldn't work between parents and children. For example, could you imagine trying to apply the POJA to a parent/child relationship? "I'm sorry mom, but I'm not in enthusiastic agreement with you taking my phone away because I ran up a $1000 bill." I care very much about how my son feels, but I do not think he has the maturity or life experience to deal with this situation on his own. Yes, he is 18, but my high school English teacher taught me a very important lesson about becoming an adult. She said that attaining adulthood did not magically happen on one's 18th birthday. Adulthood is a level of maturity that, according to my teacher, needed to be demonstrated by the individual's ability to support him or herself financially, live independently from one's parents, and take full responsibility for one's needs. My son lives at home. My H and I support him financially and in every other way. We are meeting 100% of his needs. He is by no means an adult just because he turned 18 a few months ago.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
Aside from your son giving up I wouldn't pay to much attention to his attitude. He's feeling sorry for himself and maybe victimized. He's just a kid.
Have you tryed any of the links shown to you about protecting him from poor representation? This seems nessesary with this lawyer and nobody would blame you,(or should), for ding everything to protect your son.
She knows his IM info and the password? OMG, jeez, whathaveyou! Sounds like a setup.
Yeah Gack maybe the judge wanting to talk to the family is because he smells a rat. I was hoping this accually.
Again Writer, did you call those people who represent those who have not been represented correctly in the court system?
And did you get the information from the net and whatever other sources that shows the wenchs family are wackos to your lawyer? I have been doing some internet searches, but I can't find any free legal services (other than those provided by the PD) available to someone facing criminal charges. Most of the free legal stuff I can find in our area is related to wills and bankruptcy and things like that. I'm going to keep looking. We do have screen shots of the things the "victim" has posted on MySpace and other sites over the past few months. We have screen shot printouts of the emails she sent my son saying how much she still cared about him and how much she wanted them to get back together. We have screen shot printouts of the photo the "victim" posted on the MySpace page of the girl my son was dating back in February that supposedly showed him kissing some girl he didn't even know. She posted this picture because she was jealous and wanted to break them up. We have since found the girl in the picture and she has confirmed that the boy in the picture is not my son. Our lawyer has all of these in his possession. We have copies of everything as well.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736 |
Of course, one might say pressing the young man, or any man after they have indicated in word and in deed they do not wish to discuss a matter a form of abusive behavior as well.
Like it or not, he's now 18, he's legally an adult, and if he doesn't want to discuss a matter, no matter what his parents think, he has the right not to discuss it. If he doesn't want to mount a defense, that is (sadly) his prerogative.
Pressing him on it is simply a form of DJ.
We would all like to see him take an active means of defense. For some reason, right or wrong, he thinks it to be fruitless.
Instead of faulting him for thinking this way, provide him with some assurance that his concerns are not well founded. After all, given that writer1 seems to think things are close to hopeless, then why chide him for adopting the same mindset?
Folks make decisions, they pay the price for those decisions. This young man chose poorly. Either he did rape her, or he chose a willing sex partner who could not be trusted. Either way, he decided to engage in the behavior. If he doesn't want to mount a defense, then it's on him.
He's had 18 years to learn how to behave. The law will likely see him as an adult, and treat him accordingly.
If there is a way to determine the IP address the IM's came from, that may help. One may need AOL or Yahoo or whomever is the IM provider to help with that information.
It is somewhat telling if the young man doesn't want to mount a defense. Perhaps he knows more than he's telling? I don't know, nor do I have an opinion either way.
What appears evident is that something makes him think he can't win. If that can be addressed, then address it. But if he doesn't want to talk, it would be abusive to keep trying to force him to have a dialog he does not wish to have. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Harley's principles were meant to be applied to the marital relationship and not the parent/child relationship. Some of them simply wouldn't work between parents and children. For example, could you imagine trying to apply the POJA to a parent/child relationship? "I'm sorry mom, but I'm not in enthusiastic agreement with you taking my phone away because I ran up a $1000 bill." I care very much about how my son feels, but I do not think he has the maturity or life experience to deal with this situation on his own. Yes, he is 18, but my high school English teacher taught me a very important lesson about becoming an adult. She said that attaining adulthood did not magically happen on one's 18th birthday. Adulthood is a level of maturity that, according to my teacher, needed to be demonstrated by the individual's ability to support him or herself financially, live independently from one's parents, and take full responsibility for one's needs. My son lives at home. My H and I support him financially and in every other way. We are meeting 100% of his needs. He is by no means an adult just because he turned 18 a few months ago. I understand that. What I'm saying is that folks are comparing his unwillingness to talk with abusive behavior. Yet no one is saying that the drive to compel him to talk, to act or whatever is likely just as abusive. He's now an adult by what is admittedly an arbitrary line. So while you are not married to your son, it's just as abusive to perpetrate a LB on him as it would be to do so to a spouse. Trying to force someone to act, is abusive it's it's spouse to spouse or adult parent to adult child. So to those calling his silence or unwillingness to talk an abusive pattern, I'm simply pointing out that forcing him to act, now that he is an adult is also abusive behavior. Even if you mean it for his best wishes, he ultimately gets to decide now that he's an adult. You and I may not agree with him. But then just because one doesn't agree with a spouse doesn't give us the right to force them to act a certain way. In the same fashion, it doesn't give us the right to force an adult child to act in a certain fashion. So while I agree that SOME principles don't apply, the LB's are for the most part LB's and by Dr H's definition, abusive, regardless if they are perpetrated on a spouse or an adult child.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234 |
I wonder if you should get an affidavit from the girl who says that was not your son in the picture? I guess it would have to be written on the same piece of paper the picture is printed on?
Sooly
"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."
Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
The way I see it, EE, my son is not truly an adult. He is living in my house. He is being completely supported by my H and I. If he chooses to live under my roof, then he chooses to live by my rules. If he (or any of my other "adult" children) do not like that, they are free to leave. I certainly won't keep them here against their will.
I am not trying to force my son to do anything. I am simply trying to get him to understand that he needs help and we are here to help him. I never at any time attempted to force my son to talk. I was asking him questions and he became verbally abusive with his answers. At that time, I asked him to leave the room, because I didn't want to be subjected to his AO's. He refused to leave the room and get off the computer. I shut off the computer and continued to ask him to please leave the room and he continued to refuse. Things escalated until he finally went downstairs (after calling me dumb and stupid a dozen times) and slammed the bedroom door. I think I was purely within my rights as the parent and homeowner to ask my son to get off MY computer and leave MY living room when he began to talk to me in a disrespectful manner. I was not being abusive with him. I was making a request and he was refusing to comply.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736 |
My son will not do anything to help himself and he will not let anyone else help him. If I try to talk to him, I get verbally abused and told how stupid I am. All he wants is to enjoy his last few days of freedom. He will not listen to me. He will not do anything I ask him to do. He will not talk to me in a decent or respectful tone. I ask him to leave the room, and he will not do it.
He won't fight this anymore. All the advice I am receiving on here won't do a bit of good if he refuses to allow me to help him. I am trying. I am listening to what everyone has to say. I want to help him. BUT HE WILL NOT DO ANYTHING! I can't do this by myself. I am not the one who has been accused of a crime. I can't fight this unless he agrees to fight as well, and he will not. Every time I bring up anything we can do, he becomes hostile, defiant, and verbally abusive.
I really can't take this anymore. I cannot take the yelling and screaming. This isn't good for me. This isn't good for the baby. I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE! I don't disagree that his behavior is unacceptable. What I'm saying is if you know he doesn't want to have this conversation based on what you say here, if you continue to press him to have a conversation, you are becoming abusive as well. His behavior is never an excuse for you to return abuse with abuse. Asking him to leave, to get off the computer, etc. All of that is reasonable. It's your home. Badgering him to engage in a conversation that you indicate you know he is not willing to engage is the abuse you are perpetrating on your adult son. You can set boundaries. But you also have to respect that he too is allowed to have boundaries. If he doesn't want to discuss the matter, that is just as legitimate a boundary as you not wanting him to use YOUR computer. Is it the end of the world abuse? Probably not. I think it points out what you suspect. That he's having a tough time handling this. But the solution is to ask him what kind of help he wants, and then do your best to provide it. If you think he's given up, then the best thing you can do is offer real hope. I don't hear any real hope in what you are saying. So I, like him, probably would not be interested in platitudes and trite sayings or hugs. I'd want real, tangible results, not feel good, but ultimately hollow words. I'm sure you love your son. I suspect he knows this. I also suspect he knows that your love will not protect him in this issue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
As soon as he said he didn't want to talk about it, I said fine. Then I asked him to get off the computer and go downstairs because I needed a little time without him in the room. That's when things started to escalate and he started yelling that he didn't want to talk. I calmly explained to him that I was not attempting to talk to him about this issue anymore, that I merely wanted him to leave the room for awhile so that I could collect my thoughts. He got angry about having to get off the computer because he didn't want to stop talking to his friend. That's where the anger was directed, not towards the questions I was asking.
I do try to offer hope. He is the one that doesn't want to even try to do anything that might help his case and give himself some hope. What he says he wants is to be able to enjoy his last few days of freedom before going to prison. That may be what he wants, but I don't think it is what he needs. I think he needs to get out of the negative mindset that he is definitely going to prison on Thursday.
Our "hope" comes from trying to fight this from our side by attempting to come up with a defense if we do go to trial. That's what I am trying to offer. I don't feel like anyone else around here is offering that.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,736 |
As soon as he said he didn't want to talk about it, I said fine. Then I asked him to get off the computer and go downstairs because I needed a little time without him in the room. That's when things started to escalate and he started yelling that he didn't want to talk. I calmly explained to him that I was not attempting to talk to him about this issue anymore, that I merely wanted him to leave the room for awhile so that I could collect my thoughts. He got angry about having to get off the computer because he didn't want to stop talking to his friend. That's where the anger was directed, not towards the questions I was asking.
I do try to offer hope. He is the one that doesn't want to even try to do anything that might help his case and give himself some hope. What he says he wants is to be able to enjoy his last few days of freedom before going to prison. That may be what he wants, but I don't think it is what he needs. I think he needs to get out of the negative mindset that he is definitely going to prison on Thursday.
Our "hope" comes from trying to fight this from our side by attempting to come up with a defense if we do go to trial. That's what I am trying to offer. I don't feel like anyone else around here is offering that. And he knows that. You really don't get to decide what sort of mindset he has. I know as a parent, you would like to see something different. However mindset really doesn't matter. Having a workable defense is all that really matters and if the experts haven't found one, then logically, why should he have a different mindset? Because mom wants him to have one? Sorry, that's just a control issue, and you don't get to control that. Do you really think he doesn't know you want him to think or act differently? Your best chance of having him think or act differently is to provide a concrete means of winning. Anything else is likely going to be perceived by him as a waste of breath based on what you've said about him and his current mindset.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
At this point I don't think sons need for accountabilty for his own words is writers first priority, and understandably so.
Just like a little kids who is convinced there are monsters and that daddy has scared them off, he is convinced he is lost and doomed.
Writer is still responsible for his emotional well-being, which she wishes to protect him in by avoiding a conviction in something blown out of purportion. The Kid slept with a girl, and he is asked to pay for it way more than morally, he is being accused of violent rape.
I think that would blow my mind too at 18, even though I was supporting my wife and child at that age, my MIL and her 14 year old while holding a full time job and was a supervisor. I would too think I was doomed if these lies were put upon me.
I think he should be treated like a child because he acted like one, and is overwhelmed by fear. Later on we can work on the details that may or may not have been part of writers attempts to bring him up being faulted. Right now he needs to be protected from this girl and her low-life family so he doesn't go to jail or more importantly, believe that "Its no use, I'm Screwed, Why can't you see that, I just want to enjoy my last days of freedom"!
He is panicing and I don't blame him. lets reason with him when he is reasonable.
Other than that Ex I see where you are coming from but now is not the time IMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
So writer, what is your belief on the outcome of this?
Do you believe that he will be found innocent? Do you believe that the lawyer will fight and prove it?
Do you have any confidance that whater the outcome ,son will be OK? That is the only real hope you can give him besides what your lawyer has done.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,234 |
Writer - I didn't have time to look this site over well,but wanted to pass it on to you to just look over quickly. Maybe there will be something on there that will be pertinent. false rape society Home page of false rape society
Last edited by Soolee; 07/26/10 09:31 PM.
Sooly
"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."
Me 47
DH 46
Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,870 |
DISCLAIMER: I am not licensed to practice law in the State of California and the following should not be construed as legal advice. What follows is simply a cut and paste of text from the California Penal Code. Any and all legal advice and interpretation of the following text should be obtained from and attorney licensed to practice law in the State of California.
DIRECTLY FROM THE CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
1054.1. The prosecuting attorney shall disclose to the defendant or
his or her attorney all of the following materials and information,if it is in the possession of the prosecuting attorney or if the
prosecuting attorney knows it to be in the possession of the
investigating agencies:
(a) The names and addresses of persons the prosecutor intends to
call as witnesses at trial.
(b) Statements of all defendants.
(c) All relevant real evidence seized or obtained as a part of the
investigation of the offenses charged. (d) The existence of a felony conviction of any material witness
whose credibility is likely to be critical to the outcome of the
trial.
(e) Any exculpatory evidence.
(f) Relevant written or recorded statements of witnesses or
reports of the statements of witnesses whom the prosecutor intends to
call at the trial, including any reports or statements of experts
made in conjunction with the case, including the results of physical
or mental examinations, scientific tests, experiments, or comparisons
which the prosecutor intends to offer in evidence at the trial.
Writer, if I were you, I'd be asking your son's attorney if he's done this and what is there regarding proof of the IM conversations. If there was no forensic review, that girl's authentication of the print out is attackable by anyone with an IT background bys imply explainin how the file is convered to a Word document and after that, it is subject to edit by anyone with access to the Word file.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,803 |
I am familiar with this site and have read quite a few of the stories. The site doesn't dispense legal advice. They recommend getting the best attorney you can who has experience with false rape cases and to spare no expense, since the charges are serious and have lifelong consequences. While I agree, it's easier said than done. My attorney came highly recommended from several different sources, but it doesn't seem to be helping much. I'm afraid we just can't afford another attorney at this point. We literally have no money left to hire someone else.
Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
|
|
|
|
1 members (Open Leaf),
624
guests, and
65
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,623
Posts2,323,503
Members71,977
| |
Most Online3,224
May 9th, 2025
|
|
|
|
