writer1, how do you handle that in SoCal? My family loved it there, but to rent a room in a house was over $1000 a month. Not an apartment, a room in a house. We rented a two-room structure, like a studio apt, behind someone's house for $2000. With like half a fridge and a plug-in hotplate. Is it still like that? How would a 21 year old afford that?

When I was 19, I paid my parents $50 a week, and felt like I was making a real contribution to the house. Their rent was $600/month, and I was giving $200/month, so I felt really good, like I was pulling more than my fair share. With such inflated prices, maybe you son doesn't feel like his contribution is making much of a drop in the bucket? Are there other things he can add to the financial contribution you're asking for to feel like he's making more of an impact, in this temporary time while he's looking for a new place? Maybe take over the landscaping, or the cooking or something?

I think all of those ideas are good ones, NED, but it's clear that writer's son is absolutely uninterested. He does not follow up on his agreements with writer. I mean, this isn't exactly some mundane detail, like "please remember to empty the dishwasher every other day.". This is the condition under which he was permitted to remain in the house. He just blows it off.

I suspect that he is most unlikely to respond to anything other than an order to leave, backed up by threat of legal enforcement. I suppose writer could just change the locks, too.

I think he needs to get OUT of the house. AFTER he has tried to make it on his own, and learned a bit of humility, I think writer could take him back if he ensures some foolproof way to sign over a set portion of his pay to her, like direct debit.

Writer, very sorry to hear about the latest development. By the way, hope DS18 is doing ok serving out his sentence. But back to the issue at hand....
I thought about this before responding because I don't want it to come out the wrong way.... but...
I don't think this is going to end well. I think you need to be prepared for this. It seems as though your DS16 and now this DS21 are both from the "entitlement" generation. As I recall, you said this DS worked at a Starbucks, right? So what is he spending his cash on? HIMSELF. He doesn't even think for a moment about the crushing debt you're under or that you have this major issue with DS18. It's about HIM. He didn't even want to help with babysitting, right?
So..... looking at this, I don't see it ending well.
I see he's got the passive-aggressive down pat. If he AGREES with you during a discussion, there's nothing to argue about, right? You can't fight with someone who nods their head. But then he doesn't EVER follow through with action. He KNEW he owed you money, but paid nothing. He KNEW you had a rule about overnight guests in the house, but deliberately deceived you and broke the rule.
So how do I see this ending?
As I said, not well.
I see your husband blowing a gasket and having a physical confrontation with his deadbeat stepson and his deadbeat friend. I see your husband being the one to precipitate the action. And yes, it's possible someone, or all of them, will end up spending some time in jail. You're all under too much pressure right now, and this is a powderkeg.
With that knowledge, seeing the wave on the horizon, you have two choices--inaction, which is what you've done so far, or getting up a pre-emptive strike to get your DS21 out of the house before this boils over. You know I don't usually side with your H because of his temper, but in this case, if I were him, and I was paying the rent and my stepson, 21, and his deadbeat friend were sponging off of me, eating my food, playing video games at all hours, etc., while I was trying to sleep, there WOULD be police involved. You owe it to your H to get this situation under control.
Control=DS21 out of the house. Let him and his pal get a one room apartment to share using their tip money from starbucks.

writer:

Ima is right about "this isn't going to end well"

When you have raging entitlement crashing up against the rocks of Boundaries, you have an awful amount of splatter.

And that works for your DS, because he gets his way with threats and doing what he wants.

You want to be the "peacemaker" but that doesn't work in these sitchs. You can't keep the peace when someone is abusing that peace.

Its going to be tough, but you have to enforce those boundaries.

And writer: I have a 40 year old sister, who has been sponging off my mother for 40 years. Mom is sick, and now my sister is targeting me for support. I AM NOT going to give her what she wants. She MAY end up living under a bridge after my Mom passes away. But this is HER choice. So I understand what you are going thru.

LG

What is your goal, peace or a self-sufficient functioning son?

Right now it appears you can only pick one of the two. Should you choose peace now, I fear it's at the expense of a fully functional adult.

Best wishes, regardless how you choose to proceed.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. I am mulling everything over.

I do not think things are in jeopardy of boiling over at the moment. My H has been very calm about the whole thing. We sat down and talked to our son's friend last night and explained to him that he is welcome to stay for a few more days while he makes other arrangements. We urged him to come up with a plan for his future and approach his family with that plan and see if they would be able to work something out. We did email his father, and he pretty much said that his son is 20 years old and refuses to get a job or go to school, so they kicked him out. He urged us to do the same when his son becomes a nuisance.

As far as our son goes, he has a few options. He can stay here short term (maximum of a couple of months) while he looks for something else. He can go back to Utah and find a job there and move in with his old roommate. He can go back to Colorado and work at the ski resort he worked for last winter. He doesn't want to do either of these two things. He wants to stay here and go back to school, but I explained to him that we can no longer afford our house payment and we are looking to get out of CA ASAP, so there won't be a "here" to stay much longer. He has talked about renting a room from his grandparents who live about an hour and a half away from us and going to school out there, but I don't know if they would be agreeable to that, and I am staying out of that one. If he wants to move in with my IL's, he will have to work that one out with them himself.

We are going to draw up a written plan for our son detailing our expectations of him (rent, helping out around the house, baby sitting) while he is with us.

NED: Just to answer your specific question, our area isn't that expensive. We live about 90 miles Southeast of LA, in the lovely Inland Empire (ie the armpit of So-Cal). You can rent a room in a house here for around $400 a month. A 1-bedroom apartment would run you around $650-$800. Still not great, but much better than Orange, LA, or San Diego Counties. Of course, the job market here is abysmal. Our unemployment rate for the county just hit 15.1%, and many individual cities in the area are much higher than that. Most people here have to drive 50-80 miles to work in one of the coastal counties, commuting on some of the most congested freeways in the country. It's always been that way.

We are finding our relocation efforts to be quite frustrating. All of the jobs my H has been contacted by that are interested in interviewing him seem to pay in the region of $11 - $13 an hour, for the same sort of job he's making about $22 an hour doing here. I simply don't see how we could ever support a family off half his income anywhere. Even if I manage to find full time work, we would still just be scraping by. I've told my H that he's going to have to look at something other than CS/Call Center work, and he agrees, but that is where all of his experience is. Retraining for a new job will take time, and that's something we don't have much of. The financial problems are a constant source of stress.

DS 18 is hanging in there. He was moved to the other facility last week. He isn't as happy there, but he's trying to make the best of it. It's harder for us to get there to visit, but I'm going to try to make the effort. Finding someone to baby sit the baby every week will be a challenge, and my H and I probably just aren't going to get the UA time that we need, but there's not much I can do about it. I'm so looking forward to November.

(((writer)))

Good luck.

Hi Writer and Kerala,

Writer, am truely sorry to hear of this most recent development with your 21son. I am going thru similar now with my son. It hit a peak here a couple of weeks ago when I became angry with him in that he wasn't following my suggestions in looking for work, sleeping 'til late morning, tried to tell me the only way to find a job is looking on the internet (which I know is an excuse to go to FB, and I know in this day and age still walk-in is still effective), and just generally lazing around. After a couple of days of being upset I realized that I could Not let him go or to try to get him to leave, because honestly where would he go. Truth is, his older gf thru him out.

I started to take a different tactic a couple of weeks ago. I've made myself more available, and encouraged talking without tying to be judgemental or being critical. The more I did that the more he talked and we even started doing things together - like going to a minor league baseball game, pizza out, and visiting his mom. Believe me it was hard knowing he was minimizing looking for a job, not cleaning up after himself, playing computer games with a friend (online) until late at night, etc. My point in doing this was to hold off on treating him rigidly because I know he is fragile at this point.

The huge difference between my son and yours tho is that my son I feel and pretty much know has some semblance of manic-depression that he may have inherited from his mom.

Even tho that being said I am taking the gentle approach now, and in doing so trying to make room for myself, and my wife, and as well as for him. Yep, it is a hard line to tow, but do you know what - as I learned from my priest on Sat. in my confession - he advised me to be zealous for my son despite the fact the it will make me uncomfortable. That does not mean to wear a 'sackcloth' - it means patience, time, and communication.

My son earned his commercial truck driving license two years ago. He did drive trucks for awhile but not over the open road but locally because at that time he wanted to continue school and not be away from his gf. Well, he was laid off. On Saturday he confided to me he feels he made a mistake and now wants to try for open road, which pays good money. I only have said go for it w/o trying to exert any sort of judgement. He is now this afternoon out on an interview with a major trucking company in our area.

I just wish the best for You and Your family....

Tom

Tom, I'm sorry to hear that you're having troubles with your son too. It's good that he has that commercial truck driving license though. I hope the interview went well.

Okay, I need some help with feelings of hopelessness.

I am feeling overwhelmed by the financial burdens and I don't know what to do.

Just had a meeting with my son's probation officer to go over the terms of his probation, and one of the terms is paying for the victim's counseling/related medical expenses. I was told by our attorney that those would be capped at $1000 when we agreed to the plea bargain, but apparently that's not the case. As long as the "victim" provides receipts and documentation, there is no cap, and the expenses can be ongoing for years. Meaning, I will be responsible for her counseling, medications, hospitalization fees, whatever for years to come and the amount could be very significant. This judgement is against me, not my son (or my H, since he is the step-father). My son will in all likelihood not be allowed off probation until the money is paid in full.

Between this unknown/unknowable amount, my $70K in student loans, our upside-down home mortgage, the credit cards, and $$$ owed to my IL's, it's pretty clear to me that, unless I win the lottery big-time, I'm going to be buried in debt for the rest of my life. Most of my biggest debts are not dischargeable through bankruptcy. It seems as though every penny I earn for the rest of my life is going to belong to someone else.

I blame myself for all of this. I never should have gone back to school when I did, right before the economic crash began. I never should have had an A and ignored my family and did all of the selfish things I did while I was involved with the OM. I never should have burdened my H and older kids the way I did by bringing an OC into the world that we couldn't afford. I can accept the fact that because of the decisions I made, my life is irrevocably ruined.

What I'm having a hard time accepting is the path of destruction my actions have left behind and the way they are affecting everyone in my life. My H, my COM, my OC, they are all suffering for my actions. My H is shouldering financial burdens that should not be his (my OC, my son's court case). My kids have needs that aren't being met.

I keep going over and over in my mind how I could have done things differently. If only I hadn't gone to grad school. If only I hadn't had an A. If only I hadn't gotten pregnant with the OM's baby. If only I hadn't went away with my H for our anniversary that night when the "rape" supposedly occurred. If only, if only, if only...

I know this is rambling and disjointed. Everything I feel and think anymore comes out like that. The hopelessness is starting to take over. I have this deep feeling that really, everyone would be better off without me.

(((Writer)))

Something seems fishy when a condition of your son's probation is essentially being treated as a judgment against you personally. I can understand it maybe for as long as you are his guardian but not after the age of majority. I would definitely look into this further and try to get it changed.

I know things are really bleak right now. Try not to dwell too much in the past.
easy to say, I know.

On a plane so I have to dash. I'm sure others will be by shortly.

Writer.

At your expense I allowed my son Randy to view your last post, for my own need in what to try to say to you. He is an honest person, and I have allowed him to view a few posts and responses of mine on the SAA forum and I am secure with him.

That being said, just slap me.

No one including myself Ms. Writer wants you to feel you are not loved, by God, your family, and your fellows, because you are! No rational person could feel that you have failed. So, despite the burdens and your sentiment of "better off without me", pick up your cross and carry it, period.

After I posted to you I found out from Randy that he let his commercial license expire, and will not have to affort the funds to reschool to qaulify for a renewal. That disappointed him as well as me so it is what it is. I keep talking to him about just driving and walking into local park districts, local municipal districts, libraries, and other municipal agencies to find a job - we have had long discussions about just walking in to find a job instead of looking on the internet, and we disagree - I want to show him that a personal show up is worth more than an internet job application, and I am not afraid but would be disappointed in him proving me wrong. We will see. I challenged him to a bet - that even tho I am working now, that I could get a part-time job by Sept. 30. I would welcome that process even tho it would be hard - I am okay but age 68, but this is my tactic.

Ms. Write, this comes directly from him, his comment after I let him read your last post is to just so continue to support your son without reservation. This is from a 24 year-old, bt he has had a tough life too.


Ms. Writer, whether you like if or not you are going to have so many prayers on your behalf. But, in the meantime, flex your legs and brace your shoulders, and carry your cross.

Many thoughts, and many prayers

Tom

I am so sorry about this, writer. Maybe some of the MB people with law knowledge will be able to give some insight. It doesn't seem fair to me at all.

As far as the other goes....I'm going out on a limb here. I can see why you would dwell on and list all the bad choices you made because I have done that too. I can also see why it might make a few other people in the world feel...I don't know, vindicated?, somehow to list them for you as well. BUT nothing anyone can say to you or anything you can say to yourself can turn back time. So I say unless someone has the power to build a time machine, it's time to stop picking apart things you cannot ever change. It is what it is.

I had an A, and my DD lost her beloved teacher. I have a disease that costs lots of money and probably cost me my last job. I spent a week in the hospital that affected my H and kids deeply. That's a lot of what if's. But I think every honest person would have to say they have at least one "what if" in their lives.

So what I'm sayin' is, my protective internet friend sense is kicking in....so cut yourself some slack, sister. And if anybody tries to pull you back in the mud of if only's, send 'em to me....I'll go all bipolar mania on their butts!

Thanks Tom and Luri. And Tom, I don't mind if you let your son read my story. I would like to serve as a cautionary tale to all of mankind about how NOT to live your life.

Seriously, I need a Do-Over of my life. One of my MFA professors, Robin Hemley, wrote a pretty funny book called "Do-Over" where he went back and re-lived some pivotal moments from his childhood (summer camp, kindergarten, senior prom). I thought, maybe I'd do something like that, but my screw-ups are pretty sad and probably wouldn't make the best comedy.

I get that whole put your past behind you thing, but my only question is, how do you DO it? I've resolved a thousand times to move forward and put all that awful stuff behind me, but it just keeps sneaking up and biting me in the hind-quarters. It's so hard to forget about your past when it keeps calling you and asking you for money.

Writer, are you getting outside support? Like emotional support? So many times we feel like our burdens are ours alone to carry, but they don't have to be. I have friends who have been through credit counseling services, I know lately there have been a lot in the news that are not legit, but there are others that are, I don't know, maybe like United Way could help you get connected with someone. Who can get you set up on a payment plan, small amounts, that will get you caught up over the long haul.

Do you mind me asking what your degree is in? Would you be willing to go back to work to bring in a second income? Catperson had posted about a website she would get freelance work from, I don't remember the name, but again, maybe your local resource person would help you.

IIRC you're a member of a congregation that's very family-like, maybe they can help you with putting a plan together. I'm a member of a local 12 step group, also very family-like, and it has been so helpful to reason through my struggles with folks who have walked in my shoes before. And they don't just help with reasoning through, they are also really familiar with local resources and other options.

Your H is helping you, this is a blessing, not an indictment on you, hon. Have you shared with him how you're feeling? It sounds very normal to feel grief at some stage, going through all this.

I have this bookmarked for some reason:
Freelance site

So, I just woke up at 3:45 in the morning to a strong smell of smoke. Checked the house, couldn't figure out where it was coming from, but the smell wasn't outside, only in the house. We got out and called the fire department. Stood outside for fifteen minutes or so while they checked everything. Turns out, our air conditioner burned out and was blowing smoke all over the house. They couldn't get the fan part to turn off and finally had to unplug it. The house still smells really bad, but they said it was safe for us to come back in. Problem is, now we have no air conditioning. We're having a heat wave here and it's supposed to be between 105 and 110 here today. My house has extremely poor insulation, so that means that by about noon, it will start reaching dangerous temperatures and probably won't start to cool down until 9 or 10 at night. I don't have any family in the area or really even know anyone that well, so I have no idea where we're going to go or what to do. The unit will be about $1600 or so to replace, and we don't have nearly that much money. Summer temps don't end here until late October or early November, so we still have a lot of heat to deal with.

You know, I just don't know what to do anymore. I feel so kicked around by life. It's like I get kicked down and I lay on the ground, bleeding and crying and feeling sorry for myself, then I vow to suck it up and get up and try again, but I don't even make it to my knees before the punches and kicks start again. It's like life is screaming at me: "Hey, stupid, I told you not to bother trying anymore. Why do you keep fighting? Why don't you just stay down there and accept it?" I don't know, why don't I? Maybe I should. Maybe I'm just too beaten down at this point. I don't know if I can fight back anymore. I don't think I have it in me. I'm tired and I can't take care of my family or protect them from any of this. I have this beautiful baby girl who I love more than life itself and who I would do absolutely anything for and who depends on me for everything, and I have failed her. I can't give her or anyone else what they need. I just can't.

Sorry. It's 5 a.m. now and I'm running on about 3 hours of sleep and trying to figure out how to get my air conditioning fixed before we die of heat stroke or find someplace I can go with a baby for about 8 hours a day in a town that doesn't have much to do other than a movie theater and a really skanky bowling alley and a Walmart. I am NOT functioning right now.

We talk a lot about boundaries here. I have concluded that not focusing on what I cannot change because it already happened is a boundary. Yes, I can still see consequences of it sometimes....but to dwell on the past...I just can't. So if my own mind tries to go there, I stop it. I make myself leave that thought. If anyone other than DH tries to go there, I leave the conversation. I do not acknowledge or participate. It might mean leaving the room, hanging up, or getting off the internet (or on another forum I am a member of, you can put someone on ignore).

Looking at all my failings in detail was productive....four years ago. Not now. If someone (including my own thoughts) has nothing helpful to offer, I don't listen. That might sound harsh, but once a person "gets it" that their actions have consequences, that their choices were wrong, that they need change, to harp and harp and harp for the sake of "drilling it home" is just....annoying.

You are a mother who loves her children. You are a person who has owned her choices. You are a woman who loves her husband. You are intelligent, creative, passionate, and HUMAN. Human means you are not perfect. Maybe that's why I like you....perfect people really get on my nerves!

Hang in there. Write your heart out. Try to find out if that probation guy is full of bull about the "victim" expenses (I hope he is). I will always be thinking about you (but not in the stalker way, just in the annoying luri way).

Writer, I'm sorry to hear you're feeling so down. If you want an outsider's view, I think you're shouldering way too much of the blame here.
1. All of this financial stuff relating to the "rape" is NOT your fault--it's your DS18's. You may accept responsibility to pay his expenses, but it is not your fault that he chose to sleep with a crazy girl. By the way, you should get your lawyer to review the terms of this document--I've never heard of such a thing in my life. That's indentured servitude, and I think that's been illegal since the middle ages.
2. It is also not your fault that your H is under-employed. He needs to fight for a better job.
3. It's not your fault that your DS21 is living at home, under-employed and mooching off of you. He's a grown man and it's time to grow up.
4. It's not your fault that your DS16 chooses to get in trouble with the law and smoke weed. Yes, you can take some credit on the early parenting side, but at some point, he's old enough to know the consequences of his actions.
But listen, the financial stuff is horrible, yes, but what are they going to do to you if you don't pay it? If you don't pay off your student loans, will they throw you in jail? No. If you don't pay for this worthless girl's counseling, will someone come shoot your or your son? No. Even if they kept him on probabation for the rest of his life, he could still find gainful employment and start to shoulder the medical bills for this girl eventually.
I lost a dear friend to cancer last night. He was only 48 and leaves behind a wife and young son. THAT, writer, is what puts it into perspective. You and your family, if you choose to band together, can emerge even stronger. But it will require you to make some tough decisions, like moving out of this toxic environment.

Hey Luri and Ima, I think we were posting at the same time. Did you see my newest saga?

House still smells really badly of smoke. I keep thinking it can't be healthy to be breathing this stuff. I have the windows open but it just won't air out. I have a feeling all of my clothes and bedding are going to smell bad for awhile.

I have come to the conclusion that I am a very unsafe person to stand next to in an electrical storm.

Really, how many bad things can happen to one person at the same time? I would really love to get off of the Murphy's Law bandwagon now. I'm thinking about reading the story of Job (apparently my soul mate). I may have to dust off that Bible, that is if I can find it.