Vibrissa, I think you have it right here.
I don't think he is testing fullmoon and making her choose him over and over. Neither do I think he doesn't care.
I think he is so deeply frightened of strong emotion (particularly negative ones) that his whole modus operandus is to avoid them. He has no faith in his ability to come through the other side of them intact. He believes (subconsciously) that they will crush him and he will not survive.

I think you are spot-on here. I think this is coming from your instincts, not your reason, and I think it's right. I think the OM is a minor problem compared with your H.

I think OM knows exactly what he was doing. He knows perfectly well the electicity passing between you and he encouraged it. In some ways, I think: so what? he's just scum - (imagine doing this to your best friend with his wife!) But at least he is a conscious scum-bag. Your H is so disconnected from his instincts that he doesn't sense the danger, not even when he's told it's there.

fullmoon, I am afraid that maybe the only solution I can see is counselling for your H. I suspect he will refuse point-blank as being 'not his thing' but maybe if you went with him and presented it as MC but in fact did some 'accompanied IC'.

I have 2 questions for you:

Has your H ever said a genuine, unsolicited 'sorry' to you or anyone else that you are aware of?

Has he a strong sense of pride?

Well, I don't want to generalize with my "No"...but he doesn't really apologize for who he is or what he does. I can't recall hearing him apologize to anyone off the top of my head. (I have to think about that...) He does apologize TO ME as a "bandaid" for whatever ails me...or to shut me up *lol*. And after he does apologize that should be the end of it forever hold my peace (<--of course, I'm not that easy.)



I've never thought of him as someone who is full of pride. He believes in himself without question, his mind cannot be changed by what you think or feel, and if you don't like it, it's pretty much your problem to deal with. However, he carries himself as somene who is very kind, affable, and everyone's best friend. When I think about it, it makes me smile.

Hmm�truthfully, my feelings have not yet gone anywhere though I�ve been trying out Scotland�s suggestion of replacing thoughts of OM with thoughts of DH. I�m going back to the gym and I LOVE that. One of my good friends just returned home from an extended vacation�so I am trying to keep myself even more occupied (if humanly possible). Some days I have great days�and others are not all that good. This is ridiculous. I wanted this switch to shut off like it seemed to have come on.

And, really, whoever thinks of being �infatuated� as an addiction? I should have been warned. *lol* This is absolutely ridiculous. Everything triggers me.


I hope this is not true. OM did have a girlfriend recently that I really liked; I felt guilty that I could not just *tell her*. (But we never �did anything� so there was nothing to tell.) I felt really guilty to look at her and *know*. Well, they broke up.


DH told me yesterday, �I am willing to do anything�anything it takes�to make you happy.� And, �If you would just stay happy, I would be happy for the rest of my life.� He says �anything� but I think there�s some implied small print there that says ��with the exception of IC, MC, and MB�and hearing you talk about OM�� Otherwise, he means it.

I have to find the right words.


Or if I keep talking to him about this, my fear is that DH may switch off his feelings for me� As we can see, DH is fully capable of controlling his emotions down to suppressing them right out of existence. He tells me if anything�a kiss, touching, SF�were to ever happen with me and another man, it�s over. There�s no talking, no second chances, no �back together�, no �working it out�. I�m inclined to believe him. I�m afraid to keep pushing him.

So, it would seem that he should help me block out OM. But he just cannot.


Absolutely. A person doesn�t protect himself against danger that is not real to him...

Oh fullmoon, you sound so like me - when I was in a more innocent place. Now I'm in a different place and I'm afraid that you are not protecting yourself.
This is true for you too.

Once I remember reading in a childcare book that the single most important thing for a child to grow up happy and well is to be looked at with eyes of love. This struck me as so true. The children are always shouting 'look at me' and when I look and see them playing it's as if everything around them fades away into soft focus.

For many, many years WH looked at me with eyes of love, he adored me. Then, one day that love 'switched off' and suddenness with which it dissapeared was so frightening. It was like an eclipse of the sun, except that nobody else noticed. It switched off long before the PA started (although he too absolutely refused to believe that such a thing as an EA exists). He was working with OW (his Phd student) and she, by her own admission, decided the moment she saw him that he was The One and determined to get him. (This isn't to excuse him in any way but just to give the context.) She was at that time in a relationship with a married man with 1 child whose marriage she had participated in breaking up.

He became closer to her and talked about her a lot to me. I remember one day (stupid that I was) telling him that I was fed-up talking about her - could she not sort out her own problems?

I suspect it was an EA for up to 2 years before it became a PA and I know that because his love for me 'switched off'. I talked, begged, pleaded with him to tell me what was wrong but he kept telling me I was 'paranoid' and he was totally impervious to my agony. Once the PA started, it is as if I ceased to be a human being to him and became an object. It was the most incredibly destabilising thing that ever happened to me. It was with huge relief that I found MB as it made me feel that his behaviour was 'normal' wayward behaviour and could be rectified. But now I know that Plan A/Plan B (especially Plan B) never had a chance of working. In fact no matter how far back I go in the past I can't really figure out a moment when I could have changed the course of events.

Anyway, I am telling you this because I see similar signs in WH as in your H although there are differences in other ways. I really think you need to get him into IC somehow.

I'll post this and then go back to your answer to my questions to pick up specifics and address them.

I believe him too. This is because, for him, emotions do not exist or, more accurately, they don't have any value because they are not tangible, visible, reliable. Only actions count because they can be witnessed, documented, independantly verified. (He has no faith in his ability to understand emotions but actions he can pin down.)


I hope you can see that these are 2 very different things that shouldn't even be compared. Nobody should apologise for who they are but everyone should apologise sometimes for what they do. You should think about this more. If he is capable of genuinely being remorseful and apologising for ANYTHING, eg forgetting your birthday, saying something hurtful even if accidentally, breaking or losing something that means something to someone else etc then I see hope. The real question is: is he capable of questioning himself, judging himself, finding himself guilty and then admitting that guilt? (This is what an apology is, for me.)

Good. Make him work for 'forgiveness'. It will stretch him a bit further.

I hope you can grasp how serious this is, what a major handicap this is in life. This means that he is incapable of empathy. But maybe he can learn the basics even if he will never be strong here,IF he is willing to question himself.
I have a friend whose brother is diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Intellectually he is brilliant but he knows he is deficient in other areas. Last year he became a father and he is coping well but he knows he needs help to interpret situations and he is not afraid to ask for help.

fullmoon, it doesn't make me smile. It makes me nervous. Conflict avoidance at this level is not good.

A few more questions for you:

Does he ever express a moral opinion about anything? eg in the news etc. (Morality tends to be nebulous as opposed the law which is easier to pin down.)
Is he a dissapointing gift-giver?
Is he generous but in a passive (fine, go ahead) sort of way rather than in an active way?
Does he have a wierd sense of time? eg he'll say 'such a thing happened 3 weeks ago when it really happened 3 months ago'

Fullmoon,

Thanks for the words.

No doubt that we all bring our personal biases here � that�s inevitable given the traumatic effects of an A. At a fundamental level we all share VERY similar problems and that�s where Dr. Harley�s concepts excel at explaining why and how an A happens but more importantly how to survive it and prevent it. I hope you can effectively learn to use the MB tools before it�s too late.

Similar to your H, I can see how a few years ago there was NO way that I would even look into something like MB. I am quite sure that I would have immediately dismissed it with some kind of "I am not drinking that kool aid" remark. I thought that my M was fine. Well, I don�t have to tell you how wrong I was and how much that mentality has cost.

All I can suggest is that you somehow get your H to talk to Steve Harley. Be creative in how you convince him. Try something like: "I plan to do some counseling with MB but I don�t know if this is just a bunch of crap. Can you also talk to this guy so that I make sure that this isn�t some really whacky stuff?". Or better yet, talk to SH first and he can coach you in how to bring your H on board. Make the call, you won't be disappointed.

Best wishes

--ElCamino72

DH is out with his friends right now (OM and whoever else). BUT I have good news�

DH had, actually, decided (on his own) not to go to that concert. I had told DH to go ahead and go; I didn�t want to try to convince him not to go (given our previous conversations). Instead of buying a ticket to go to the concert with his friends, he came home and gave me two concert tickets for an upcoming show for US to go to together! I was surprised! &#61514;

DH decided he was going to spend today with me. We had a very nice--�romantic�-- day, spending quality time together, a movie, riding the motorcycle, perfect weather. We talked a lot.

Well, his friends KEPT calling him to go out tonight�so, I understand why he felt he had to oblige. But I FELT that he is choosing me and our M�and that he will commit himself to helping me.

I think if I give DH a little time (not pressure him) to make these decisions, he will begin more and more to make the right decisions that will fortify our M. Of course, I don�t understand OM being so determined for DH to go out�if DH is spending quality time with me. That�s a little annoying. Like I said, he is our 3rd wheel.

In any case, I talked to DH about his �emotions�~ his not EVER crying (as the obvious example). He said that I don�t want him to be a *bleep* (uh�soft man). I told him that I am concerned that I have not been able to �reach him� in all these years. He says he�s �just not an emotional person�.

I am afraid of DH one day being able to simply �not love me� anymore. I mean, right now I am in the prime of my life: in my best shape physically, sexually, my career, my self-confidence�I mean, I could probably bounce back if he decided that now. While I have lots of options. What if he decides that later after I have given him my whole life, everything I have�and he wakes up one day and just �isn�t emotional� and simply �doesn�t love me�? That�s REALLY scary. I know it�s a selfish question, but really�I think it�s a legitimate fear. But love is a risk, I know.

So we DO need to get to the bottom of this.

And, Tully, you�re right: OM is a minor problem in comparison... Today, we had such a great day�I FELT those �romantic� feelings for my husband� I can be in love with DH; my �in love� for DH can eclipse this �distraction� (fill-in-the-blank) that is/was OM if we keep talking and keep moving ahead in this direction.

I keep oscillating between discouraged and excited about my progress�between not thinking of OM and recalling that I love OM�I just wish I could be consistent. *LOL* But, today, was a great day.

fullmoon,

Do this.

Take OM to one side and say: 'I'm on to you, you piece of [censored]. This is my home too and I want you to know that you are not welcome in it. DH may be too innocent to see through you but I've seen and I don't like what I see. With friends like you who needs enemies? Go find someone else to prey on!'

If he protests that it's all in your head (which he will) respond with 'Don't give me that cr@p! I am not interested in having a discussion with you. I am informing you that you are no longer welcome in my home.' Then walk away, no not talk to him!
I guarantee your feeling of 'love' will go away because he will cut off the electricity supply.

Then get your DH into IC.

My DH does not really express opinions about �morality�. DH does not judge people on their �moral� behavior. DH believes that the purpose of life is to �be happy�. He seems to think that whatever it takes for a man to feel happy, it is that man�s right to pursue. That man would have to weigh the pros and cons of his proposed actions before pursuing them and be prepared to deal with the consequences. Some consequences/outcomes are worth it; some are not. [I am fairly certain of DH�s thoughts on these things as we are very adept at meeting our �communication� ENs.]

For that matter, I don�t even think DH would �blame� OM if he were �interested in me� if I make him feel good. He would blame OM (and ME) for not considering the consequences/outcomes and properly concluding that this is a bad course of action. He would blame us for �acting on it� (PA).

I hate to speak for DH in such detail. I would prefer DH tell his own side.

IF you have any questions/comments for DH, if you could post them here: I will ask DH and type his answers. DH is not big on typing but he always answers my questions and tries to explain. Also, he is getting more and more curious about this website since I am always on it these days. I believe DH will soon be ready to read some of it.

Yes and Yes as to the gift-giving and generosity�BUT he is getting much better with the gift-giving (and that was not something that was fundamentally important to me). However, when he does surprise me with something nice (i.e. the concert tickets), it does make a nice deposit in my LB.

The only thing weird about his sense of time is that if something happened an hour ago, it�s in the past and it�s over�and he is done with it. After all, he is living in the present; he plans to be happy and content in the moment. I don�t really consider an hour ago �the past�.

TULLY, can you share a little more about your situation? Did your DH ever go to counseling in his life (as a child or after the A)? Do you think he just decided one day that his feelings had irrevocably changed for you?

Does he realize this is the motto of our prison population? They were all doing what made them "happy."

It�s like you have taken the words right out of his mouth. I think if he felt this situation were so dire-- if I just stopped talking to DH and he felt that I were withdrawing from him, if I moved out of the home-- I think he might find counseling something worth trying�whatever it takes to make me happy.

I really think he is starting to come around and PAY ATTENTION�and I am FEELING like he wants to put the effort in and help me. That means everything to me.

I am SO GLAD that I re-discovered this website when I did (maybe I stumbled upon it once a year or so ago but I just kept right on by). This time, in my desperation, I stopped to really check it out. Just a month ago, I was headed straight down the path to my �soulmate�...to his bed or wherever else that path led�my own personal hell, most likely�the destruction of my family. Something in me was telling me stuff about stars and fate and love and�just fantastical fogbabble-type things. I am not 100% out of the woods�but I AM definitely on a different path. THANK YOU.


And this is one of those places where that �not 100% out of the woods� thing comes in. Tully, I know OM�s not �innocent�� At the same time, I cannot imagine why someone who cares for DH (I TRULY believe he considers DH to be one of his two best friends in the world)�I can�t imagine that he would intentionally come into my home and �prey on� my family. What motivation would OM have for that?

OM says that DH and I have �the American dream�. OM couldn�t intentionally want to ruin that. SO�my fog-mind told me, this has to be�(one of my) soulmate(s). It�love�happened despite all of the reasons it should not/could not have happened in this situation. Mark�s explanation of the brain, body chemicals, etc. helped clear that up for me.

Just so you know: OM has NOT been in my home, again, since D-Day. (I haven�t seen him for about 2 months.) That has been extremely helpful to me�no opportunities for any deposits in my LB. I think we will have NC for quite some time (I can�t say for life, yet, seeing as how DH has not ended their friendship). I can do my part to make it �for life��but not if he pops up in my home with his best friend (DH). But I believe that DH, in the end, will come to make the decision that is best for the M.

First, glad to hear the good updates! I think someone mentioned a while back that it may take your BH time to process this. Maybe this is evidence of that?

Now, for this next part, I need Mel's foghorn link:


THAT right there, young lady, is enough of that. You may feel like those are very legitimate worries, and that you have your "best" you right now - but that's not how you should be looking at this. 1) You're not your best you, you little fog-addled (F)WW. (<-- I mean that in the most affectionate way possible! ) 2) M - more than love (love = feeling that can come and go, M = commitment, bigger than just an "in love" feeling <-- that's what got you in trouble w/ OM in the first place, remember) is all about that risk. You jump, you go all in, you make that commitment come what may, because that's what M is.

And if it doesn't work out? Well, you tackle that only when that comes. The more time you spend hemming and hawing right now, wondering if it's worth the risk, always holding part of yourself back (because make no mistake, that's what you're doing when you entertain thoughts like this), the more you inhibit the R and growth of your M into what it can really be.

Your M and your commitment to it are more important than what kind of shape you're in, your career, etc.

And just so you don't take any of this as mean-spirited:

*LOL* Well, those prisoners must have missed that part about considering the consequences/outcomes and being able to deal with them.

I�m not all into this �everything is about being happy� stuff like DH. I think we have to do some things that don�t make us "happy" (necessarily) for the overall good. BUT, I admit, life is much easier when I'm smiling. There must be something to it.

Oooh, I don't know about this. I think NC trumps the message this would send OM. I understand the value of OM being a jerk, and thus helping fullmoon's "in luuuuurve" feelings dissipate...but I don't know.

That is the way of every person who values their "happiness" above all else. Most especially adulterers. The secret is that a standard of morality is the key to happiness. Happiness is the result of being GOOD, not bad.

fm, I don't recall if you posted more details about the stuff OM was saying/doing that enticed you... but this post here sounds a lot like fog, delusion, and/or naivete.

One of the things that I "used" to lead myself down the path of infidelity was the conviction that men were better than they are. As in, "No, this guy doesn't just want a piece of tail, I really mean something to him!" Guess what? It was all about the nookie, (thank you, Fred Durst).

You may think/tell yourself that OM is such a good guy, he really doesn't want to destroy your M, etc. - and maybe he doesn't, or maybe he tells himself he doesn't. But he knows full well what his actions are about, and if his actions were such that you fell for him, it is no accident.

One thing about infidelity is it makes you more cynical and less inclined to put a nice spin on people and their actions. It serves you well here in dispelling the fantasy. My $.02.

My BFF Vanilla!

How are you this morning? I hope you are doing well!

Yeah, well�I knew it was probably a selfish thought while I was writing it�so yes, it is �enough of that�.


Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Thank you. I am very happy with his behavior.


I depend on you to show up with the foghorn right on time. You keep me on task.


Vanilla, I didn�t take it as mean-spirited at all. The other day, you know�I was just a tad �emotional� that day. You�re just not going to let me live that down, huh?

And he may want to be part of that dream. Evident by how much time he spends with your husband. The constant calling when your husband is with you.

Those are all planned out strategies.

He thinks you have the American Dream and he wants part of that..that even includes you.

Do not be naive, if he can get you to bed...he will. he wants to be doing the same thing your husband is. Envy is a cruel monster.

Maybe if I could bother Mark to explain to me, scientifically *lol*, how someone (OM) could genuinely be DH�s best friend and at the same time could be purposely trying to ruin DH�s �American dream�, maybe it will sink it.

But it baffles me that the two thoughts/goals could co-exist for OM.

It started off as nothing, really, him asking me about his appearance, if I thought he was �too ugly� to date [so and so]. I didn�t answer but I did *really* look at him. Surely, that was a ridiculous question� but he proceeded at different times. He always talks to me about him and women, his �problems� with women, what he has to offer women, what he expects from women. He�s kinda pushy about it�so if I try to �brush off� the answer, his personality is such that he demands an answer from me�which I find virile and masculine. *lol* I won�t go too far down that thought path. *lol*

When I was on FB, he commented on my pics a lot (all favorable stuff), he has gone on my friends pages where I would make a comment and comment to me, has taken pics off of my page and put it on his page. We got in an argument on FB (about politics) which actually made the attraction stronger. I do like a man who is �strong� and �firm�. He apologized and removed whatever comment I found offensive. [He never apologizes.] I would put up a status, then he would put up a status of his own (that would sort of respond to my status)�so it was indirect. Then, all of a sudden I became poetic�*LOL*�I put up some poetry. I felt guilty; I blocked him from reading it. He blocked me from his page. That hurt. I got off of FB altogether because�I don�t know what we were doing. Why are we arguing? Why am I posting poetry?!@!? for the whole world to see? He immediately came over my house and asked what happened to my page. I made up an excuse. I made myself not get back on�that was 6 � months ago.

When we�re alone, he stands next to me�but almost on top of me�imposing. He�s 6�-something�he is in my �personal space� in a way that makes me feel�you know�ummm� He�s unnecessarily touched me a few times and my body responds instantly. It�s as if he has stray hands that�oops�brushes me.

So my DH has him come over and they cook together. I don�t cook. I sit there and they serve me like a queen. Seriously. They both like to cook. OM needs to know how I feel about his cooking. He watches me put the fork in my mouth and on the first bite he demands an assessment. �and worries that it is not to my liking.

At these times, my mind is spinning. I�m looking at DH, looking at OM, looking at DH, looking at OM. �Can I have them both?� I think.

He�s called me. He whispered in the phone in the most sexy voice. In general group conversation, he�s mentioned what his (male part) and (mouth) is capable of�something I did not ask or need to know. I don�t even know how he gets away with half the stuff he says to me right in front of DH!

One time we all went to a party together and after the party, DH was pretty much passed out in the car. I was driving us all home (since I�m the �responsible� one *lol*). OM and I were sitting there together�this was *the moment*�I wanted 98% to do *something*, my mind was saying, �This is *the moment*��OM was saying my name�just saying it and shaking his head, said that he is going to be �good�, convincing himself, and saying my name. And we were looking at each other, talking/whispering-like� Then another friend interrupted and OM called that ex-girlfriend to break the moment. It was intense�I can hardly describe.

Sometimes he tries to push me away. He baits me into a conversation, then once I take the bait, he reminds me that he is not my husband. ?@!@#?! I don�t know whether I am coming or going. And I like it. Liked it. Like it.

And there�s more: innocent emails, eye contact, genuine serious conversations about life/love/politics/family� I mean, he is a good guy. I think he cares for me. And DH. I just think it just kinda happened and grew. See, now I am getting fog�confused�oh, oh�it�s getting dark in here�oh where�s the light?!�I�I�

I hope that�s enough�as I�m sure I�ll be seeing all kinds of pictures of cows pooping and vomit. And I know you didn't ask for so much detail but, of course, it's just waiting to come out. AND I should probably be forgetting this stuff so I can recover.

DH and I have had a wonderful weekend...and it IS going to keep moving in this drection... Okay. Good.

OMG!! fullmoon,

Stevie Wonder can see this man is hitting on you big time. Those are definitely plays to get to you.

Honestly, you can't see that?


This man is trying to work his way to your cookies, milk optional.