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Yeah, fm, that's exactly right. Here, allow me:  First, don't acknowledge what you're doing as wrong, then continue to do it. hope that�s enough�as I�m sure I�ll be seeing all kinds of pictures of cows pooping and vomit. And I know you didn't ask for so much detail but, of course, it's just waiting to come out. AND I should probably be forgetting this stuff so I can recover. Just because you acknowledge it doesn't make it okay. Don't do it. Period. And my comment was not an invitation to open up the floodgates of Warm and Fuzzy Fogville. Dam it back up, honey. You see yourself where that got you. Don't let that keep happening, as it sets back R and is beyond disrespectful to your BH and M. Second: w/ that foggy upchucking of affairland filth (wow, even I'm impressed w/ my description there!), you did prove that YES, ABSOLUTELY OM KNOWS WHAT HE IS DOING. And, no, he couldn't give a *insert ML's cow pooping icon here* about your M... OR your DH. He is playing you, and he knows exactly that. What kind of person who "cared" about someone, who "respected" the institution of M, who "wanted what's best" for someone would then proceed to infiltrate that someone's family, insinuate himself in their lives, come on repeatedly to that someone's wife, touch that someone's wife inappropriately...and that's only the beginning! I'll tell you what kind of person. A lowlife scum who doesn't have enough love or respect for you, your DH, or your M to keep his pants on and out of it. fm, you have got to realize how poisonous this is. Keep working on good things w/ your H, keep making progress. I hope he does come here, and I hope you both can be open and honest about this OM situation and the immediacy required in addressing it with NC for both of you for life. This OM is no friend.
Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
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oh yeah..I don't want to sound harsh, but that made me sick to read that. it shows blatant disrespect for your DH on OM's part.
Enemies don't always come in wielding knives and guns.
Ever heard of wolf in sheep's clothing?
The bad part is...you're falling for it.
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Shaken,
I know you felt sick. And I felt sick myself. (...particularly after my perfect day with DH.) When I think of the things that occured myself...I explain to myself how I could have misinterpreted his actions. Maybe he actually did accidently touch me, maybe he was really explaining his prowess for general conversation, maybe he really wants me to set him up with my girl friends, maybe he stands that close to everyone because he is friendly. "Why can't I just take him at face value?" is what I keep saying. I don't want to assume just because I feel this way, he is a participant.
They can still be friends if they want. It's not getting into my head that DH's friend could be his enemy. My wrongdoing, I can see.
Vanilla, I know you didn't "invite" that. But, also, I still have room to rationalize that I was just seeing what I wanted to see...and creating this EA where maybe there was nothing just like DH thinks. I can't have room to do that...if I am going to stop their friendship.
I don't know why I want OM to be innocent.
If you all think these actions on OM's part meant what I thought it meant, then I don't have to worry about their "friendship" and what I'm doing to it.
But it just makes no sense for OM to be so close to DH...and try to ruin his life.
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FM,
Your post is like watching the scene of a B horror movie. The one where the chick hears a chainsaw noise in the basement and goes in there to check. Everybody in the movie theater is like "run you dumb *bleep*".
You are going to get your M murdered. I'm off this thread cause the slashing movie genre is too predictable for my taste.
--ElCamino72
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ElCamino,
I'm sorry for offending you. I especially don't want to offend you knowing what you are going through as we speak. I know I deserve all of these last few comments...
When it was time for exposure for me, that happened when all of the posters/vets pretty much drove it home that it had to happen...even when I wanted to fight it.
I was trying to move forward with this M, progress, just let DH and OM have their friendship...trying to tell myself that maybe I was crazy for thinking what I was thinking. It seems to me that you all think I have some basis for what I thought was going on...
It's difficult to take the 2x4s...but I know it is what's necessary to push me over this place. If OM is not DH's friend, I need to get OM out of DH's life.
"Run you dumb *bleep*". Yeah, I recall myself saying that and shaking my head at other people. Yeah...
I'm sorry, ElC.
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ElCamino,
I'm sorry for offending you. I especially don't want to offend you knowing what you are going through as we speak. I know I deserve all of these last few comments...
When it was time for exposure for me, that happened when all of the posters/vets pretty much drove it home that it had to happen...even when I wanted to fight it.
I was trying to move forward with this M, progress, just let DH and OM have their friendship...trying to tell myself that maybe I was crazy for thinking what I was thinking. It seems to me that you all think I have some basis for what I thought was going on...
It's difficult to take the 2x4s...but I know it is what's necessary to push me over this place. If OM is not DH's friend, I need to get OM out of DH's life.
"Run you dumb *bleep*". Yeah, I recall myself saying that and shaking my head at other people. Yeah...
I'm sorry, ElC. It is too fresh and raw for ELC. No doubt. But FM, I am glad you typed all that out about the OM.....his intentions are clear. I think rare would be the case that a married woman would be as wayward thinking as you without some very deliberate intent from an OM. I think you should print out that post of yours and have your husband read it. I am sure your husband has watched this 'friend' of his in action many many times over the years. He will recognize the stuff you typed out....
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I don't know why I want OM to be innocent. Because to admit otherwise is to admit that you fell in love with scum. No one wants to believe they have a bad picker, or that they could possible love a bad person, because this reflects badly on them. It's the same reason you hear a battered wife stick up for her abuser - saying "he's really a loving, great guy" and "it's my fault, I just can't keep my mouth shut." The reality is he WAS hitting on you. He DID want to get in your pants. He WAS acting like scum. It's very simple. He admires your husband. He wants the American Dream. He wants the wife, and the family, and the good job and the nice house. He covets those things. He's close to your husband because he wants it to rub off. However, he doesn't necessarily want to do all the work to get it. He feels entitled to it. So if he gets you- if you leave your husband you get alimony. He uses that money and can set himself up. He can essentially steal the American Dream. Now it's a lie. He really can't. But he thinks he can. And this may not even be rationally thought out in so many words. Most of it is probably subconscious. He admires your husband and covets what is his. He wants it for himself, so he opened himself up to a relationship with you. He used his skills to create it. He can use the justification that 'it's love' and you two are 'soulmates' to get what he feels entitled to. These are the justifications he's used on HIMSELF to rationalize his behavior. See our minds are very flexible things. We protect ourselves and justify ourselves all the time. No one wants to be a bad guy. No one wants to be destructive - not in their own head, they want to be able to sleep at night. So they construct a web of lies, rationalizations and justifications for themselves to explain how it is all right. That's the fog. You used it to rationalize falling in love with OM. He's using it to rationalize falling in love with a married woman. And he can abdicate responsibility for his destruction but hiding behind the excuse that it's 'real love' that 'he didn't mean for this to happen, it just did' you two are 'special, soulmates'. Doesn't change the fact that what he is doing is evil and wrong. He has lied to himself that he really is your husband's friend, that he can't help his actions. It's BS. It's wayward fog. Just as thick as your own. He is just as culpable as you. My advice (which I'll willingly retract if others think it a bad idea) is to create a log of EVERY inappropriate interaction between you two. i.e. 6/10/09 I posted xxxxx on Facebook, OM replied with xxxxxx. or 4/3/09 went to party where OM touched me on the arm. The reason I say to do this is to create a history where you show how OM has used and manipulated you to this point. This is hard evidence you can give to your husband. You need to show him that this man is trying to take what is his. The reason I'm hesitant to recommend this is because you are still fighting the fog and this could bring it back - this could be considered Contact. So really I don't know it is a good idea. I just know that the OM is culpable here and your husband MUST get rid of him, but he wont unless he has evidence of actual infractions. Just a thought - I'll let others comment on if it is a good idea or not. ETA: I think you should print out that post of yours and have your husband read it. I am sure your husband has watched this 'friend' of his in action many many times over the years. He will recognize the stuff you typed out.... This may be a better solution.
Last edited by Vibrissa; 08/01/10 01:11 PM.
Me & DH: 28 Married 8/20/05 1DD, 9 mo. Just Lookin' and Learnin' HIYA!
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But it just makes no sense for OM to be so close to DH...and try to ruin his life. How do spies get into the enemies territory? By pretending to be something you are not. It was like watching a bad episode of a cheating Lifetime movie reading that. You weren't imagining a thing. This man is out to wreck your M by getting in close to your H and warming you up at the same time. Ugggh! He is not innocent.
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I didn�t want to invite your ire today with a big pile of �fogbabble�...especially after being in such a good mood. My thread was leveling out to all �nice� posts, smooth sailing�BUT, something is not right yet�.
While DH and I were having UA time yesterday, DH received quite a few calls from his friends (including OM). I was thinking that OM must *REALLY* like DH, they must really be best friends, maybe I imagined all of this EA�why do they need DH to go out with them? There can be no room for this kind of thinking. If OM is not DH�s friend, I must accept that�and I have not.
Part of me not accepting it is that I (and OM) am the only one with the details�and I can find justifications for all of those things, how I misinterpreted things. The MOST puzzling of all is that�many of the inappropriate comments were made right in front of DH. If DH cannot see anything wrong, then I must be crazy. Why am I seeing inappropriate behavior where it was innocent conversation and actions? So, now you know some of it�you, of course, have no time or inclination to justify anything�and you just put it to me straight.
I�m sorry, again�
I�m not going to spend the rest of the day thinking about this since it is taking away from my UA time. But, if this is clear to you, then I have to get him out of DH�s life. But why would anyone do that to a friend? What is his endgame? He has nothing to gain from this. He has SF with plenty of women; he doesn�t need me. Before I came here (MB), of course, I was thinking �love� and �soulmate��I know better now. Does there even need to be a reason? Or do we just do stupid things for no reason?
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I've posted this before, but I think it fits here, so here ya go...
A Native American legend: The parable of the Rattlesnake
A young boy was walking in the mountains, high up, near the tree line. The weather was cold and winter was about to begin.
As he walked along, he found a rattle snake. It was coiled up tightly, braced against the cold wind.
�Please help me!� the snake said to the boy, �If I don�t get down to lower elevations and warm up, I�ll surely die.�
�Help you!??� asked the boy, �Why would I help someone who could harm me?�
�If you don�t help me, Ill die!� said the snake. �But if you�ll just pick me up and take me down the mountain with you, I�ll have a chance to live.�
�But you�ll bite me if I touch you, and then I will die,� said the boy.
�No,� said the snake, �I promise that if you�ll help me, I�ll let you live, for I will owe you my life.�
So the boy, after contemplating his course of action, picked up the snake, placed him inside his coat and began his long climb down the mountain.
The snake began to warm up inside the boy�s coat, and as his strength returned he began to move around, Then the snake bit the boy on his side.
The boy tore the snake out of his coat and shouted, �You said you wouldn�t bite me if I helped you and now you�ve done just that! I am going to die here on the mountain and my family will be devastated. No one will even know what has happened to me. My people might blame the neighboring people and think that they have done something to me. There could be a great war and many people will die! You promised! How could you do such a thing?�
�You knew," said the snake, �what I was when you picked me up.�
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fullmoon,
I don't know where to start.
This has become a very personal thread for me. And this is a double-edged sword. I'm not sure if my experience is a help here or if I am projecting my own situation too much onto yours. Please let me know at any point and I can step back if necessary.
That said, you answered all my questions exactly as I expected with regard to your DH's attitude to moral issues, gift-giving, apologising, generosity and even to time. This is EXACTLY how my WH was. I asked all those questions to verify this and make sure that I wasn't imagining things.
People here have suggested that you print out that post where you describe what happened between you and OM and show this to DH and this will galvanise him into action. I seriously doubt it but you could try. I suspect he will continue to block out that message and refuse to believe. He will still try to convince you that 'it's all in your head' (whatever that means) and therefore it doesn't exist. You even partly believe him already.
The reason for this is that he is very emotionally retarded. He has an emotional age of about 5 years old. For some reason, (maybe abuse of some sort but I'm not sure if the reason really matters) his emotional progress stopped. He is like a child, appealing in a straighforward, simple way, capable of showing huge love but it is the narcissistic love of a child. Small children start off with no ability for empathy and no morality, they learn these things naturally as they grow up. Children will follow (or break) the rules but often they have no understanding of the logic behind the rules. Big people have set these rules and they abide by them but they feel safe because there is a benevolent overseeing presence that will pull them back into line if they overstep the mark. Naturally, children, as they move towards independance and autonomy, start to integrate a certain understanding of the logic behind the rules. In the best of circumstances, they develop a 'moral compass' which guides them to 'goodness' - the north in this analogy. The North is not something that is variable ie there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' that is there and is not dependant on how you process it. Of course your compass can be shaken about by traumatic circumstances and temporarily you may lose the north but things settle down and your compass finds the north again. Your DH has no compass. He cannot understand feelings (which are an essential part of morality), neither those of others nor his own. But what worse is that he is scared because he doesn't have that overseeing, guiding presence that will protect him either because he is an adult now.
'Doing what makes me happy' is what guides a child. MelodyLane made a very valid point about morality in response to you but when I saw it I KNEW you would respond with the point about 'calculating the consequences' because that's what WH would have said.
As a result, your DH is incredibly vulnerable to an A because you don't go to prison for infidelity - there are no real 'legal consequences'. There are very serious emotional consequences as we all know here but this level of understanding is WAY beyond your DH's capablility to understand. (Even 'normal' people find it hard.) But I am not just talking about infidelity, life is full of other obstacles and tough times.
Earlier you questioned 'what if he just stops loving me in the future? Should I leave him now while I am still young and able to build another life?'
This is a very valid question and worth asking. But I am hoping you can protect your M - and DH. As I've said before I think the key is to get him to become more aware of his impairment and vulnerability.
You asked about my personal situation and I will let you know in another post just in case it helps.
As for a practical way forward, I still think OM is a minor issue compared with DH but he is still a threat. He is a toxic friend and you need to get him out of your lives. He knows exactly what he is doing and I can't think of any other way to get rid of him other than using the method I suggested earlier. The speed with which you will lose all feelings of 'love' for him when he switches off the electricity will confirm that he is far from 'innocent'. You will see his 'real face' then.
DH will not get rid of him but you can use this as an example to help DH to face conflict in a non-threatening way.
Sorry for this marathon post but I really, really hope you can sort this out.
My thoughts and concern are with you.
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.
Maya Angelou
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fm, I don't recall if you posted more details about the stuff OM was saying/doing that enticed you... but this post here sounds a lot like fog, delusion, and/or naivete. Maybe if I could bother Mark to explain to me, scientifically *lol*, how someone (OM) could genuinely be DH�s best friend and at the same time could be purposely trying to ruin DH�s �American dream�, maybe it will sink it. But it baffles me that the two thoughts/goals could co-exist for OM. It started off as nothing, really, him asking me about his appearance, if I thought he was �too ugly� to date [so and so]. I didn�t answer but I did *really* look at him. Surely, that was a ridiculous question� but he proceeded at different times. He always talks to me about him and women, his �problems� with women, what he has to offer women, what he expects from women. He�s kinda pushy about it�so if I try to �brush off� the answer, his personality is such that he demands an answer from me�which I find virile and masculine. *lol* I won�t go too far down that thought path. *lol* When I was on FB, he commented on my pics a lot (all favorable stuff), he has gone on my friends pages where I would make a comment and comment to me, has taken pics off of my page and put it on his page. We got in an argument on FB (about politics) which actually made the attraction stronger. I do like a man who is �strong� and �firm�. He apologized and removed whatever comment I found offensive. [He never apologizes.] I would put up a status, then he would put up a status of his own (that would sort of respond to my status)�so it was indirect. Then, all of a sudden I became poetic�*LOL*�I put up some poetry. I felt guilty; I blocked him from reading it. He blocked me from his page. That hurt. I got off of FB altogether because�I don�t know what we were doing. Why are we arguing? Why am I posting poetry?!@!? for the whole world to see? He immediately came over my house and asked what happened to my page. I made up an excuse. I made myself not get back on�that was 6 � months ago. When we�re alone, he stands next to me�but almost on top of me�imposing. He�s 6�-something�he is in my �personal space� in a way that makes me feel�you know�ummm� He�s unnecessarily touched me a few times and my body responds instantly. It�s as if he has stray hands that�oops�brushes me. So my DH has him come over and they cook together. I don�t cook. I sit there and they serve me like a queen. Seriously. They both like to cook. OM needs to know how I feel about his cooking. He watches me put the fork in my mouth and on the first bite he demands an assessment. �and worries that it is not to my liking. At these times, my mind is spinning. I�m looking at DH, looking at OM, looking at DH, looking at OM. �Can I have them both?� I think. He�s called me. He whispered in the phone in the most sexy voice. In general group conversation, he�s mentioned what his (male part) and (mouth) is capable of�something I did not ask or need to know. I don�t even know how he gets away with half the stuff he says to me right in front of DH! One time we all went to a party together and after the party, DH was pretty much passed out in the car. I was driving us all home (since I�m the �responsible� one *lol*). OM and I were sitting there together�this was *the moment*�I wanted 98% to do *something*, my mind was saying, �This is *the moment*��OM was saying my name�just saying it and shaking his head, said that he is going to be �good�, convincing himself, and saying my name. And we were looking at each other, talking/whispering-like� Then another friend interrupted and OM called that ex-girlfriend to break the moment. It was intense�I can hardly describe. Sometimes he tries to push me away. He baits me into a conversation, then once I take the bait, he reminds me that he is not my husband. ?@!@#?! I don�t know whether I am coming or going. And I like it. Liked it. Like it. And there�s more: innocent emails, eye contact, genuine serious conversations about life/love/politics/family� I mean, he is a good guy. I think he cares for me. And DH. I just think it just kinda happened and grew. See, now I am getting fog�confused�oh, oh�it�s getting dark in here�oh where�s the light?!�I�I� I hope that�s enough�as I�m sure I�ll be seeing all kinds of pictures of cows pooping and vomit. And I know you didn't ask for so much detail but, of course, it's just waiting to come out. AND I should probably be forgetting this stuff so I can recover. DH and I have had a wonderful weekend...and it IS going to keep moving in this drection... Okay. Good. It's only a matter of time if you don't insist on NC for life with this man. You can explain away but it is clear this is no friend to your marriage.
Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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TULLY, can you share a little more about your situation? Did your DH ever go to counseling in his life (as a child or after the A)? Do you think he just decided one day that his feelings had irrevocably changed for you? My WH never went to IC - he thinks it all hocus-pocus and completely useless. We did go to 2/3 MC sessions after the A only because he knew it was what was expected of him but it was far too late. His mind had closed down on the issue. The thing is that I think, of all the strong 'negative' emotions (fear, sadness, grief, jealousy, anger etc), the 'worst' has to be guilt because it attacks surreptiously from inside out. He could never face the guilt so he kept doing worse and worse things to protect himself from guilt and in a vicious circle, the worse he behaved, the less capable he was of facing what he had done and the ensuing guilt. OM says that DH and I have �the American dream�. This parallels my story too. Almost everyone who knew us thought we were the Perfect Couple. Over and over, I have heard people say 'of all couples to break up, I thought you would be the last'. OW came to our home along with other young people from WH's lab. I now know that she saw our life and wanted it. I was a SAHM of 4 small children and I think she thought I was a mere accessory in WH's life, not a co-creator of that life. I met WH when I was 22 and he was 25. He fell headlong in love with me instantly and I was so dazzled and flattered by this attention, I fell in love too. For example, he was going home to his parents house for Christmas 4 days after we met. (At that time we lived in my country.) When he came back, he took a taxi from the airport directly to my apartment because he couldn't wait the extra 10 minutes it would have taken to drop off his bags at his own place. Possibly I should have seen this as excessive but instead I was thrilled. It was a wonderful, passionate, intense relationship that I thought gave me everything. I wasn't a very experienced 22 year old and for a time I thought having SF 2/3 times a night was the norm. We spent 10 wonderful years together before the children. We travelled the world, went out most nights and had a ball. Then we moved to his country to allow him to avail of a great job opportunity. We had our four daughters (It wasn't really planned that way but we had twins and then a 'surprise'.) Life was still good but much less exciting, more routine. Of course, through the years I came to realise that WH was emotionally deficient despite his high level of intellectual intelligence but I didn't care, I loved him, I helped him, I interpreted situations for him and it made me feel important and essential. I never realised just how serious things were although the signs were there (I mentioned a few incidents in a previous post) During my pregnancy with my last DD, OW came to work with WH as his Phd student. She decided he was the man of her life and she needed to be with him. I think the main EN she gave him was Admiration. She thought he was a god in every field, I on the other hand only admired him as a man. As I explained before, his love for me was extinguished and he transferred it to her. I tried desperately to get through to him but couldn't. Using the logic you describe when talking about your DH, he decided being with her made him 'happy' so he was entitled to it. He sees no moral issue here although it was always very clear between us that fidelity was an essential part of our M. Anyway, without going into details, he behaved dreadfully towards me and I couldn't believe it that he would treat me this way. MB was a life-saver for me. I found out about wayward behaviour and it was what I could see in WH. I remember very well one phrase in an article by Dr Harley where he talks about 'occasional gaps in the fog' and this struck me as so true. During one of these brief gaps he showed a rare moment of semi self-awareness in this email he wrote to me shortly after I found out about the A. Perhaps you are right and I am not the WH you knew and love. Perhaps I am blinded by the 'teenage feeling' that I am experiencing in the last while. It does not excuse my behaviour of course, but it is true that it gives ma a thrill that I thought I would never get again. In fact, in the past couple of years, I have been in doubts about myself and my life. I have been wondering about a lot of things concerning my abilities, at a professional and personal level. Somehow, my confidence in myself and in life in general has gone steadily down. I know that at my age, it seems a commonplace and a very 'banal' old feeling. So much so that it even has a name: 'midlife crisis'. Most people get over it unscathered, but life has chosen not to do this for me. Instead, in a time when I was unsure of myself, I discovered suddenly that a young good-looking and intelligent girl had fallen in love with me (I know you may not agree with all the adjectives there, but it is at least how I see her). I suddenly felt that I was transported back in time to a place where I once was and that has left a deep deep memory in my mind of fantastic times. These were times with you, living in Dublin and feeling full of love. Full in the sense of you giving it to me and me giving it to you as well. A time of a certain innocence and full of 'positive' emotions. I loved this time so much that feeling it was gone and will never be back again scared me. What OW offered looked suddenly like a way of being young again. I am sure you know all this and I am also sure you can find it better written on the internet. Why it is important for me to feel young again, I don't know. It could be because I am emotionnally weak and I have not understood that one should accept to grow old. It is actually a very selfish feeling. Again, probably most men who have an affair with a youngr woman get over it quickly enough, because they get what they need in it and then move on once they have progressed in their minds and once they realise that this second relationship has no future. The problem with me is that I am sure (I can even say that I know) that OW is genuinely in love with me. She is giving me a huge amount of love and I can honnestly say that I am sure that what she wants the most in life is to be able to spend her life with me. And this, I think, might be different from some of the stories one can read on the internet. I am touched by her love. Perhaps I shouldn't tell you that because I don't know how constructive and how hurtfull this is. I suppose, without trying to justify myself, that I feel the need to tell you why I am like that these days. In fact, it could be that the real WH has not disappeared, but he is with OW... If the real WH could realise that he shouldn't be there, he would be back to you intact (well, with a strong 'historical deficit' linked with what has happened and the pain you are enduring). The problem at the moment is that it is very good to be young. I have to realise that this is a wrong path. But because I cannot see that it is a 'cul de sac', I am not walking back. Worse even, I have the feeling that it is not a 'cul de sac' because I see an enormous amount of love in OWs eyes. And this could be the difference with a lot of those love affairs with younger girls that are so well-known at my age. And this is why it is so hard for me to come back to you, lovey. Deep inside of me, I feel I will come back because what we have built in 20 years, I could not hope to do better with OW. The love you have for me is enormous and beautiful. The love I have for you might have changed in nature over time, but it is still there, and it is big. I just have to reopen the door, but for this, I have to find the key.
I hope I am not a sh/t head.
Love,
WH Despite his meanness and horribleness to me, sometimes I still feel sad because I can see that he is with someone who will destroy him (this is her second affairage) and he is so lost and incapable. But I can do no more.
Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can't practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.
Maya Angelou
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fullmoon- When I read about the OM's behavior the thought that crossed my mind was "he's acting like a high school jock/Big Man On Campus". Remember those guys? It's all about the "notch" on the bedpost (to be crass) and about "winning" in the competition for who has the most girls. It's adolescent behavior but some men (and women) don't seem to grow out of it. The OM seems that way to me. BTW, I'm a high school teacher... 
johnstwin-
"I may not know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future." -Martin Luther
Remarried my FXH 25 years to the day of our first M. God is so good-and sometimes so unexpected!
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When we�re alone, he stands next to me�but almost on top of me�imposing. He�s 6�-something�he is in my �personal space� in a way that makes me feel�you know�ummm� He�s unnecessarily touched me a few times and my body responds instantly. I need to ask this: You two have been alone together with all these "feelings" and nothing happened? 
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Despite his meanness and horribleness to me, sometimes I still feel sad because I can see that he is with someone who will destroy him (this is her second affairage) and he is so lost and incapable. But I can do no more. tully, That email shows that he had so much insight. He could see that he was enjoying feeling young again, and that this "youth" that he was regaining wasn't real. He could see that your relationship had been wonderful for many years. He could see that the affair was a cul-de-sac and that he was being stupid to walk away from his marriage for something with so little promise, and yet he could not use that insight. He chose instead to deny the truth of it and say that his affair would not end like the others that we read about. Perhaps he would be the exception; the 40-something man with an affair partner 17 years younger whose affair would work out. He could leave the wife of his real youth, with whom he had built a life and created children, and stay forever with this experienced marriage-wrecking ho who was "genuinely in love" with him. How very sad that he could see all the pitfalls and futility and yet chose that self-destructive path.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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When we�re alone, he stands next to me�but almost on top of me�imposing. He�s 6�-something�he is in my �personal space� in a way that makes me feel�you know�ummm� He�s unnecessarily touched me a few times and my body responds instantly. I need to ask this: You two have been alone together with all these "feelings" and nothing happened? Shaken, That�s accurate...nothing physical has happened. I am not here to lie; that serves me no purpose. I didn�t say it was *easy* to practice restraint (for me) but both of us have. SO, OM must have some redeeming qualities if he hasn�t tried to cross the line physically. Also, we haven�t been alone together for very long periods at a time�the longest being about a � hour. That time, he began telling me a very deep story about when he was younger, some trauma he experienced involving his parents�DH came back and interrupted the story. I felt very empathetic toward him then. More �love�. Then, I found this MB discussion board...
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SO, OM must have some redeeming qualities if he hasn�t tried to cross the line physically. The only "redeeming" quality he had in these moments is that YOU didn't cross that line. He gave you the "green light" as it were. You just didn't "go". If you had, he would have as well.
johnstwin-
"I may not know what the future holds, but I know who holds my future." -Martin Luther
Remarried my FXH 25 years to the day of our first M. God is so good-and sometimes so unexpected!
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SO, OM must have some redeeming qualities if he hasn�t tried to cross the line physically. If you say so, personally, from what you have written..he's a snake to me..just like Mark eluded to. If he wasn't..he would not have groomed you so well to fall for him. Staying away from him is the best thing you can do. You still think he has redeeming qualities? Don't stay away from him and you will see how redeeming he is.
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My WH never went to IC - he thinks it all hocus-pocus and completely useless. We did go to 2/3 MC sessions after the A only because he knew it was what was expected of him but it was far too late. His mind had closed down on the issue. Yes, I understand how difficult it must have been to speak to him once he decided that he was �closed� on the issue. I mean, there is nothing that you can say. Do you think you have some idea when he developed this ability to �shut down�? Did he �shut down� about other troubling incidents during your M (besides A)? Like what? I suspect it was an EA for up to 2 years before it became a PA and I know that because his love for me 'switched off'. I talked, begged, pleaded with him to tell me what was wrong but he kept telling me I was 'paranoid' and he was totally impervious to my agony. Once the PA started, it is as if I ceased to be a human being to him and became an object. It was the most incredibly destabilising thing that ever happened to me. That�s very scary.  It is just a �powerless� feeling to not be able to �get through� to someone you love. I�m sorry, Tully. 'of all couples to break up, I thought you would be the last'. I�m sure you didn�t want to hear that. OW came to our home along with other young people from WH's lab. I now know that she saw our life and wanted it. Then, perhaps this is the same situation with OM in my case. OR others believe he is just after a notch on his belt�maybe both. Of course, through the years I came to realise that WH was emotionally deficient despite his high level of intellectual intelligence but I didn't care, I loved him, I helped him, I interpreted situations for him and it made me feel important and essential. I never realised just how serious things were although the signs were there Hmm� Could this just be the nature of the person? DH has not had any trauma in his past. I don�t know if counseling would help him; there is nothing to �dig up��unless he hasn�t told me something. (He thinks it�s hocus pocus, too.) I can�t imagine that there is something he hasn�t shared with me in all of this time. Did you learn of some trauma that your WH had experienced to, perhaps, cause him to be able to �switch on� and �switch off� his emotions? During my pregnancy with my last DD, OW came to work with WH as his Phd student. She decided he was the man of her life and she needed to be with him. I have such a difficult time with this. How could this woman come into your house, look you in your face, probably smile in your face, talk to you as a �friend�, and do this to you?!? I just don�t understand this. Even when OM started dating a girl, I felt so guilty towards her (for my thoughts alone)�I told them BOTH that I thought she was a great girl for him (she was sweet)�and I tried to just back off, don�t send him email, no FB�just let go. He broke up with her shortly thereafter. DH told me. I wonder what this OW must have told herself to feel good about herself. She knew what she was doing; she had done it before. I just don�t understand� Despite his meanness and horribleness to me, sometimes I still feel sad because I can see that he is with someone who will destroy him (this is her second affairage) and he is so lost and incapable. But I can do no more. He loved you, you gave him the best/happiest years of his life (which he tried to recreate), maybe some of the best years of your life�and he still didn�t know how to stay. I don�t know what to say. I don�t know what to do, either, to prevent it from happening in my case. So, I have two issues here: (1) myself with OM and (2) the possibility of DH really shutting down on me. You�re correct, my issue with OM does seem to pale in comparison. I am glad that MB has been a lifesaver for you and gave you some modicum of clarity that you needed. How long ago has it been since you separated? You seem like you have come to adjust but there are still sad days. I am sorry, Tully. Thank you for sharing with me�
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