Shaken,
It seems that you all agree with me about the EA (even if DH does not). You all have a complete picture of what's going on (even if DH does not). I know I have to stay away from OM.

My issue was deciding whether or not OM is truly DH's friend...and whether or not I have to get DH away from OM. How I am going to accomplish this is a whole different story. I can print the post and leave it conspicuously on the dresser for DH to run across (and read)...if I bring it to DH, there's just going to be another blow up. Hmm...

OM's redeeming qualities (whether they exist or not) should be no concern of mine.

tully has given you a good outline of how to approach your husband.
Your DH is not going to "unfriend" the OM. He doesn't see him as a threat..just yet.

He doesn't realize how attracted to OM you are, even after you have told him. he wants to bury this. Not handle it maturely.

Besides..he will continue to deny anything of a froward nature if confronted by your DH.

Your husband is going to blow up regardless..but he needs the facts. leaving the post would be a sure fire way to get his attention. He needs to really know what has transpired. Prepare for a fall out either way.

I apologize if I seem harsh.. I am really hoping you get this ironed out.

Sugar,

This was one of the very few moments that gave me hope. It was one of those brief clearings in the fog that Dr Harley talked about.
He really had very little insight, on the whole. My first reaction was to be so scared for him, not me. I knew how vulnerable he was, how completely unarmed he was.

Tully

He has always had the ability. It's just that when we were young, there wasn't much to shut down about. It was only when hard things happened in life (as they tend to when you get older) that it became a real 'issue'. He behaved like your DH now, straightforward, likeable, 'everyone's friend', not 'best friend' because he never confided in anyone (except me) and he didn't invite confidences. If there was something he didn't like he withdrew and 'sulked'. He had a capacity to keep this up for a long time and he never apologised.

The two most significant other incidents were on the death of our daughter and the death of my mother which I have already described. He hated any 'weakness' on my part and would temporarily 'shut down' on that. Luckily I had good health but I am pretty sure that if I had got cancer for example he would have left me.


No, I know of no trauma in WH's past but I think that's beside the point. The point is not to 'dig up' something, the point is to make him understand his limitations and make adjustments in his life for this. We are back to not protecting yourself against the dangers you don't acknowledge.
It's like someone who is illiterate - what incident caused this to happen is not the point, the point is to teach him to read a minimum.

You are too innocent. I was the same, I didn't even see the danger at the time. I could see her juvenile admiration of WH, she joined the gym in our village even though she didn't live here, she befriended my friends and started running with them but above all she met and knew my children and despite all that destroyed their family. Whatever about between adults, but how could she do that to innocent children? She is a viper in the nest (or a rattlesnake, as Mark said). And I KNOW OM is, too. Why he is doing what he is doing is irrelevant, just do what it takes to get rid of him!


Issue 1:
You could try to get through to DH by giving him all the details and have him break his friendship with OM. I don't think this will work but you could try.
OR you take OM to one side and say what I said. This, IMO, is your best option. And you will see, vipers do not like when people see them for what they are.
Let me tell you, if I knew then what I know now about OW, I would turn into a tiger to protect my family and rip her head off.

The far more difficult issue is issue 2.
The only solution I can see is IC. I know he sees it as hocus-pocus but my idea was to disguise it as MC and get him to do it 'for your sake'. The key is to get the right councellor.

Acutally, just to clarify. He didn't develop an ability to 'shut down'. It's that he never developed an ability to 'open up', to expose himself to strong emotions and to deal with them and so 'shutting down' is a defense mechanism.

fullmoon,

I had an interesting conversation with DD12 yesterday (they just came back after holidays with WH and OW).

DD12: What are you doing on the computer?
Me: There's someone on the internet who has a problem and I'm seeing if I can help her.
DD12: What's her problem?
Me: Well, it's a woman and her husband's friend is interested in her and she is kind-of interested in him and she's asking people what to do.
DD12: What are people telling her to do?
Me: That she should tell her husband and he will make the friend go away. So she did but he said he says he doesn't mind about what she thinks, only about what she does.
DD12: That's stupid!! That means he doesn't care.
Me: Why do you think that?
DD12: Well, if you don't care about what someone thinks, then you don't care about them!
Me: That's a very good point.
DD12: What did you tell her to do?
Me: I said she should tell the friend to go away and leave them alone.
DD12: So is she going to do that?
Me: I don't think so.
DD12: Why?
Me: Because she doesn't want to be mean to him.
DD12: But he's the one being mean to them. Does that mean she doesn't care either?
Me: It's a bit more complicated than that... but not much.

I'm delighted to note that emotional retardation is not hereditary.

fullmoon,
I've never posted here before but your sitch is something I can relate to. Many years ago my suposed BF since 3rd grade secretly dated and SF'd pretty much any girl I dated. I knew something was off but I was absolutly floored to find out 10 years later. I thought for many years something was wrong with me GF telling me "it's me...not you"...blah blah blah.

Of course he was in my ear the whole time...the inocent friend helping with MY problems!!!

This is all several years behind me now and I acutally feel sorry for him. Because karma is a B.....! It also had the added effect of me not trusting anyone for a long time, I've progressed in that I now have hope but verify.

You must get this guy out of your M it's his own personal agenda, he will destroy you both!

Tuff,
So what happened that opened your eyes to your friend�s �true colors�? When did you stop being friends? Since you are checking out the MB website, you must have had trouble in your marriage. Was this trouble the result of your supposed friend?

I hear you. I know that OM has to go�not that I know how I am going to accomplish that. Right now, I am thinking about approaching OM as suggested by another poster, Tully. There is a wedding coming up that I am not supposed to go to (due to NC)�but DH says we�re going, case closed. So, if I must break NC (and potentially start my recovery from Day One�I�m scared of *that*), I might as well make it count�

Fullmoon,
Our friendship started to end when I joined the military. About three years into my first enlistment I met a girl while home on leave...same story as before! This time she decided to tell me the truth.

It took a long time to go over highschool memories and ended up contacting an ex of his. Yep, she had the whole story! Basicly this "friend" who I helped when his Mom died (that's how we met) enjoyed toying with people.

I was young and dumb I didn't see him for what he truely was. I missed out on a lot of possible relationships because he was the cool guy/bad boy. Just like your OM he constantly flirted in front of me. Somehow he had me convinced that he was being funny and who knows what else behind my back. I cut him off and never looked back...but like I said Karma he finally got his!

I'm close to retiring now and has nothing to do with my curent problems. I was reading your thread and can personally relate to being in you husbands shoes. Just like someone mentioned on your thread...I've been called emotionally retarded but it didn't sink in until I got the ILYBNILWY speech eight years ago and I can't count how many threats of divorce.

Hopfully your in for the long haul, I'm still working on the emotional thing and I'll guess your husband and I probably have that in common too.

I'm no expert and don't know if confronting him will help or hurt. I know my exbf would probably see it as a challange and up his game. If you want to get through to him use a brother or uncle to shake up your H to the truth. I'll guarantee the OM is the master of spin and will try to turn it against you.

fm,

This is silly. Your H cannot make you go. Stop making it sound as if you must go. I take it that your H does not lead you around by a chain?

As for the paradox of contacting OM to say "NC":

Dr Harley recommends that a NC letter be written. it should be approved by your H, and supportive of him and your marriage.

I can see that your H will not approve a NC letter and will respond the same way that he has responded to everything else on this subject. However, YOU can write the letter. Use the template provided in the book Surviving an Affair. It tells the OP in no uncertain terms to leave your marriage alone.

Sugarcane is right. As I have said before, you are responsible for ending all contact with the OM, not your H. You don't need your H's permission to do the right thing. It is up to you to guard your boundaries, not him.

Tell your husband you won't be going to the wedding just after you send the no contact letter to the OM. You are not a child and your husband is not your big poppa daddy. You are an adult woman who is responsible and accountable for her life.

Mel, let me ask you�do you think I should have DH go without me? That�s what is going to happen here. He is going to be upset with me, that I am �SO in love� with his own friend, that I can�t even manage to make a 3-4 hour wedding. He is going to be there with other single women (who are interested in DH), dancing with other women, drinking, and with OM. When he explains to OM (his best bud) why I am not there, OM is going to make it look like I am crazy and imagining this whole thing (which DH already wants to believe)�and they get to have a little �f*** women� conversation at my expense.

No, nobody leads me around by anything. But these men do have some power where I am concerned�I don�t like it�but it is what it is.


If I send OM that NC Letter, OM is going to have physical evidence of my feelings for OM�which I am afraid he will use against me�show the other people at work, embarrass me and DH�and DH is not going to be so forgiving (after he has already told me his position on the subject).

Mel, I don�t want to see OM. Quite frankly, I am afraid that he will say something(s) to impede my progress here. I FEEL much better today than I felt on 6/29 when I arrived here. I thank you and all of the vets for that. I know I am not finished all of the work I need to do�BUT I want to KEEP my DH. I don�t know how many more chances I get to tell DH about my feelings for OM�or how many more times those feelings get to interfere with my life with DH�before DH determines to take some action on his own (which probably won�t be too good for me)�

If this is really a boundary - you will protect it no matter what. Nothing your husband says or does will keep you from maintaining NC.


They only have the power you let them have. So what if they [censored] behind your back. YOU know you are doing the right thing. YOU know you are standing up for your marriage. YOU know OM is scum (you do know this right? No more of this, he may be innocent crap)


You have done something embarrassing and despicable by going outside of your marriage to get your needs met. It is EMBARRASSING. You SHOULD be embarrassed. If he shows the world - well that just shows you what kind of scum this man is. He has NO interest in your well being, or in yourself as a person as anything more than a lay.

Exposure is GOOD.

Affairs thrive on secrecy. If he tells the world - well less chance of the affair flaring up then huh?

Really I'm not seeing this as a negative to sending a NC letter.



Maybe your DH SHOULD decide to take some action of his own. You have cheated on him. You have committed adultery in your heart. You have fallen in love with another man.

Right now your Betrayed Spouse is playing 'hide my head in the sand'. So you're getting a free pass. However, if he realizes the magnitude of this and decides to take his head out of the sand, he could decide he doesn't WANT this marriage. That isn't a consequence of going NC - that is a consequence of your EA.

You chose the EA. You can't chose the consequences you get from the EA. You can't be wishy washy on NC as a means of manipulating your Betrayed Husband to stay in the marriage because you want to KEEP him. If he can't handle the betrayal, YOU don't get to chose if you keep him or not. Doing the right thing - going NC and enforcing it won't ruin your marriage. It wont lose you your husband. The EA will do that - and that is already water under the bridge.

Again, this isn't a valid reason to not go NC.

This reason is actually manipulative and cruel.

Though I only have my suspicions, I think this is the case with OM in my situation. He�s, actually, quite intelligent�a political thinker, enjoys playing chess, strategy games. By the time I started making these observations, I was already involved.


OM definitely plays the bad boy role, well. And a lot women are fools for that... Like me.

I just can�t believe myself, getting so involved�I�m just glad that, overall, I am smarter than him. *LOL* At least I found MB in time (...to stop what DH considers to be unforgiveable).


Yeah, DH is absolutely convinced that it�s �nothing�. OM says half of the stuff in front of him and DH says nothing. So I did figure it was a "free pass" for me to have a little fun. Isn't DH the barometer of what's acceptable to him in our marriage?


So it took the ILYBNILWY line to get through to you. How do you think I should handle this with DH? DH said that he is willing to do anything to make me happy (though I am supposed to have enough commonsense to know what �anything� excludes).

There is a problem with my NC�as you may have been reading about this upcoming event. Given your previous �emotional retardation� (for lack of better words), how do you think you would have felt in this same situation? How would you have reacted if your W didn�t want to go to this event to avoid your best friend? I know it�s just speculation�but I am trying not to push DH too far�

If everyone is sure, I will not go�but I know there will be fallout�

(In the best case scenario, OM is not going since he won�t have a date or whatever. Then, I can go with DH without consequence. I will find out from DH if OM is going for sure�)


I�m certain that OM will *try* to turn it against me. So far, I am the emotional dramatic estrogen-filled woman falling in love with random people who don�t even want me�and OM is the calm rational chess-playing buddy who DH can hang out with and have a few brews (like they did on Saturday night). Not helping my situation at all.

Okay, I get this. I have no room to question that. You all know the bulk of what has occurred; we are all on the same page. But DH does not/will not/cannot believe it�and I am not going to try to force my husband to�

Think of it this way: if you were a woman who slept with 50 men before you were married�some people would have bad names for this woman. But, suppose, you found a man who loved you anyway and wanted to marry you, and you are not a **** to him�do you spend all of your time trying to beat it into his head that �I am a ****. Why won�t you just accept that?� No. You are going to be happy that you were fortunate enough to find someone who loves you in spite of�

So, I know I had a terrible lapse in judgment. I was �having fun�/having ENs met by this OM�at great risk to my family. THAT IS OVER. I am still afraid of OM because he has an effect on me�but I have all the tools from you, from MB, from the fog waxing and waning�OM WILL NOT GET THE GOODS.

So am I supposed to beat it into DH�s head why he should DETEST me�or do I make my marriage the best it can be from here forward?


Yes, I am getting a free pass (from DH). Not from you�and not from me.

In fact, DH gave me a free pass to have the EA because half the stuff happened in front of him and he doesn�t even care.


Okay. I know you all have spent so many posts trying to get this NC into my thick skull. I keep thinking due to DH�s response (and this one little event I have to get through)�but okay. smh.


Okay.


Okay, I�m just afraid of the consequences� I might be imagining it worse than anything DH would do, anyway. DH obviously doesn�t want to lose me�and wouldn�t do anything to lose me�
Thank you, Vibrissa.

The difference here, of course, being that all this sex occurred BEFORE marriage. This isn't a valid analogy. The man in this situation went INTO the marriage accepting this about his wife. Your husband did not go into the marriage being ok with you cheating on him.

I know he doesn't see it that way, but that's what it is.

The goal isn't to make your husband detest you. The goal is to recover your marriage. The ONLY way to do that is NC. Nothing should excuse contact, not even your husband's lack of acknowledgement on the issue.


I understand that, but really that ship has sailed. The fallout from this is already set in motion because you've already ACTED inappropriately. NC isn't going to keep the fallout from coming (if it ever does). NOT going NC has even more dire consequences. So just go NC.

FM,
I don't get why you think your BH is giving you a free pass. Granted he may not be acknowledging the situation between you and OM but do you really think that because of that he is giving you a "free pass"? IMO I don't believe that for a second. For whatever reason you BH is burying his head. Maybe it's because he can't or won't believe that you or his bf could betray him, but it's doubtful it's a "free pass" from him.
L4S

Fullmoon, you said this to Tully about her WH's OW:



You could say the same thing to your BH about your OM:

I was thinking the same thing, pm.

fm, I think the presentation is key. Maybe you could bring up the subject in the context of larger life plans (e.g., having kids, career goals, etc. - happy, rosy visions of where you guys want to be), and then tell your H you are concerned, though, about the influences you two are welcoming into that life.

Or that you have been thinking a lot lately about M and what it means to you, and how you want nothing more than to have a happy, fulfilling M with your H. And, in order to do that, you need his help strengthening your relationship, fortifying those bonds, etc.

Or you could go along the lines of what tully's (I think it was tully) child said, about how when someone is not listening to them it means they don't matter. Maybe start with an apology for bringing up a sensitive subject, but you really need your H's help in addressing this. And when he doesn't seem to be taking it seriously (avoid DJs here!), it makes you feel less valued - almost to the point where your discomfort and concern take a backseat to his friendship with OM.

If he starts to shut down the convers'n, maybe pull out (physically or just in your head) a list like you gave us, detailing without room for misunderstanding the various compromising situations OM has broached.

I don't know, just some thoughts. I would definitely defer to the vets.

Of course!! If he wants to go he can go. You are not his momma. He is a grown man who can go whereever he chooses.

What matters is that YOU DON'T GO. If you are serious about protecting your marriage, that is what you do. *YOU* make sure that you do not see the OM again. Seeing the OM will cause more harm than your husband's "upset."

Just because he fails to see the danger, does not mean that you don't. And it does not absolve you of your responsibility to affair proof your marriage.